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TL Mafia XXXIX
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aidnai
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not sure what I'm gonna do about it... | ||
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if you guys read kurumi's posts with a thick but generic eastern european accent, it makes more sense. Try it! On May 05 2011 03:54 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay guys, I just woke up, so I'm going to be reading over this a few more times so I can try to get a good post up. I should be posting up within an hour or so with something useful, but for now I have to go look to see how another game is going. promises a good post On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you. delivers this?! what great posts? unless you meant "april fools"? On May 05 2011 04:25 KillerSOS wrote: I'm going to have to agree with this post, while I am not decided on a vote at all, this is a good line to follow. And killeragrees? what is going on here? if there is some sort of crumb in the numbers, it went way over my head. And like chaoser said, making town waste time trying to figure it out is, well, a waste of town's time. | ||
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KKK referring to killersos kenpachi and kurumi posting sequentially. also, off of work already yay | ||
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- overreaction to pressure from Chaoser/redtooth - failing to deliver on promised posting behaviour as I and others have pointed out - defending kurumi's posting wtf - is avoiding the thread now that the heat is on Jackal, your man chtasaza is an interesting character... not a bad lynch either I guess, but for now ##vote: Irish_Punk13 | ||
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Irish_punk13 On May 05 2011 12:19 kitaman27 wrote: I just finished skimming through Irish's game as mafia. Mainly I just read his posts, rather than the entire game, but the first thing that stood out was he clearly wasn't a noob. He seemed to have a pretty good idea of what he was doing. The main difference between that game and this one so far is his thread presence. On UG, he was one of the more active posters and played a pro-town game (enough so to draw a day one medic save). When pushing a lynch, he got pretty aggressive. As for how he responded to pressure, it probably wasn't the best game to gauge. The scum team had a flawless victory so there really wasn't much for him to worry about. He did do a decent job of blending in though, as this was posted in post-game: Looking back, I think his overreaction was probably overstated. He came off worried, but that alone isn't really enough to make him guilty. Of his posts so far, this one feels the most off. I must have missed all the great posts by Kurumi. Most of them were either spam or left me pretty confused. Not sure how he gets a town read off that. Jumping on AO seems pretty convenient, but at the same time, he was apparently "joking" about a policy lynch. I would like to hear more from him in the next 24 hours. If he doesn't handle pressure well, then it would be beneficial to try to force a slip out of him. The other person who I would like to here more from is chaos13. After his weird guilty post about defending irish, he has posted mostly questions and one-liners. I'm not gonna take my vote off of irish_punk until he responds to the pressure on him right now. Maybe he didn't do a conclusive slip, or maybe he did actually overreact and realized it (or his buddies told him) and tried to compensate with later posts ignoring the issue. What is more interesting at this point is that after this post On May 05 2011 04:22 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, for now my vote is going on AirbladeOrange for his last post. I don't like the fact that he's okay with the idea of lynching town. Kurumi is making some great posts so far, and I think he's most likely town based off of his actions so far. The fact that you think it's okay to lynch him tells me that you're probably scum, so I'm putting my vote on you. which a LOT of people have pointed out is weird, he has only bothered to make this one post On May 05 2011 06:30 Irish_Punk13 wrote: Okay, I saw that Amber quoted Chaoser asking why I acted the way I did when I posted the link to UG. I didn't mean to come off as being really defensive or anything, I was just trying to give you evidence that I do play with those guys on UG and make it clear that I didn't want to waste any more time on it. I'm keeping my vote as is for now because I haven't found anything that sounds more suspicious than AirbladeOrange. I'm going to go focus on my other game for now, and I'll get back to this in a bit. Ignoring pressure and staying away from the thread when your name comes up is optimal scum play in my experience. I don't want to reward his inactivity by changing my vote at this point. In any case, thanks for doing some extra leg-work on this one kita Lyter In other news, this guy is doing the modkill-avoidance-threshold posting. Plus downplaying himself/newb card. Another decent lynch in case I change my mind about irish. On May 04 2011 23:54 Lyter wrote: This is my first game of Mafia on a forum, I've played quite a lot of the Mafia custom on SC2 so I know how it works but I'd consider myself a newbie in a big forum game like this. | ||
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Chaoser has seemed pretty damned protown to me so far. By that I mean, pushing inactives, challenging people, poking for reactions, in general fostering discussion in a pro-town manner. Sure, he could be doing an awesome scum performance. But keep in mind a few things: 1) it's tricky to get a good day 1 lynch. I think amber is scum, but there's nowhere near enough evidence yet. 2) Irish is not 'obvtown' in my book. His initial reaction may be understandable, but completely avoiding the thread since then is, as I mentioned before, optimal scum play and in my opinion not likely a new-ish town play. Once upon a time (experimental mini mafia), RoL caught me early with a 'scumtell' that was weak (except he actually got me -_-), but I just disappeared from the thread on the advice of my scum buddies and dodged the lynch. 3) day isn't over, we have yet to see what the final vote is and how the lynch flips. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot or even most of the current votes change, including those on irish right now. Also, kinda weird that you would write an essay on day 1 FOS'ing one of the better players in this game when, as you admit, your case doesn't warrant a vote. In my experience, TL towns do not need any help mistrusting leader figures... so yeah, don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. last thing: On May 05 2011 02:14 redtooth wrote: @Rising_Phoenix, Kitmanan - While you may not need the advice given from the guide, it's pretty apparent that some players are newer than others. Just because you personally don't find it helpful doesn't mean it may not benefit the remainder of the town to some extent. Once again, I made the post after I saw people stumbling over themselves reacting to the RVS vote. It's not an attempt to impose my will on the town but rather a reminder of what we should be keeping in mind as we continue playing. Yes taking into account experience does help to a certain degree. There are plenty of scumtells that look very similar to noobtells. Why would it hurt to have a reference in place, especially since not much other discussion is happening? If you need another explanation, I also didn't like the way the RVS was going so I went to RQS and both have generated decent discussion and activity. I didn't take a look at the last game but if you guys lynched Kavdragon solely because he was trying to be helpful then... yeah. You can disagree with strategies and call people out for them but try not to discourage helping attitudes. wtf is RQS/RVS? | ||
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-Takuna still hasn't posted. There is still most of a day left, so we're actually doing pretty damn good on activity. Gratz everyone. | ||
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On May 05 2011 21:42 redtooth wrote:... @aidnai - Then why is it that people are literally tripping over themselves to keep credit and align themselves with Chaoser? As for Irish, he obviously didn't go inactive as part of a combined scum strategy to get the heat off of him since there are no PMs. If you think Irish actually is noobscum and exposed himself to all those real tells, don't you think he would have done the noobscum followup and aggressively defend himself? (See: KillerSOS) Let's do a math exercise. Consider, as objectively as possible, the following and write down the percent chance you think of each event happening.
On the other hand, do the same for Chaoser.
This made me late for work zzz. I think Lyter, Conversion, Amber, and rising_phoenix are all good lynch targets that haven't gotten much discussion yet. (For the record though, amber has looked scummy to me pretty much every time I've played with him-_-.) Do you really not find anyone at all scummy or at least scummier than chaoser? Also it seems you misunderstood something about PMs -- the scum team can most definitely PM each other. The single most scummy thing that irish_punk has done is go AFK exactly when the heat was turned on. This is even worse for him since the heat was, as you have pointed out, not a strong case at all. I cannot discount this possibility because it is exactly how I dodged a lynch once upon a time. Whether Irish is actually noobtown with all his tells being explained by that fact or that he is actually noobscum (and somehow strategicscum at the same time) giving away a ridiculously abundant amount of information without being more guarded. Your maths game is biased by the way, sorry i didn't play along -_-Here's my own version: -is it more likely that a noob townie would skip the thread after facing a weak accusation, or a noob scum? In my experience, the noob is much more likely to respond with defense and increased activity. But a noob scum would have a team to advise that a better course of action is to lay low and let the thread move on. I believe that irish_punk is active lurking right now. His excuse for not posting was checking his other game, which means he's still online, still able to read this thread, he just doesn't want to post here. If he was a noob town, I seriously doubt he could resist the urge to post some response to this kind of pressure. Last -- I do not understand why you consider him obviously town. You also allude to him giving an 'abundance of information' and not being 'guarded'. Having read his (11) posts, this description does not seem apt, please state your evidence. | ||
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On May 05 2011 21:20 VarpuliS wrote: I'm on the fence between lynching Irish_Punk13 and Kurumi. At this point it seems to me that Irish is only scum if Kurumi is too. People are pushing a lynch on Irish because of the information he'll provide when he flips, but I think that we can get all of that information from a lynch on Kurumi. Situation A: Kurumi flips scum, it is very likely that Irish is as well. We lynch Irish the next day, and we get our information, just a day later. Situation B: Kurumi flips town. Irish is probably town, we move on. The only real scumtell from Irish is noting Kurumi's "great posts" which don't exist. If Kurumi is town, then Irish is just an idiot. I'm posting from my phone, classes start soon and I probably won't have time to check the thread again until the afternoon. First, to address your line of thinking: lynching for information is a bad idea, that is not why we are lynching either player. Your situations and hypothetical ideas are in fact wrong, if we lynch either player, we will not get any reliable information for the next lynch. We get at most a piece of evidence that we'll be able to factor into a decision. Kurumi is probably town, based on two things: - thread response to pressure on him (easy bandwagon) - His posts are extremely un-'guarded'. Meaning, it seems clear that the last thing on his mind is trying his hardest to look like a town, which is actually the first thing on the mind of a scum. In this sense, yes, it is true that the most 'obvious' scum are often bad townies. Irish_punk on the other hand: - is ignored as a bandwagon target - his posts (what few there are) are in fact guarded, and now he's too scared to show his face around here. Please consider switching your vote. On May 05 2011 21:47 redtooth wrote: As I consider myself a player who could stand some improvement, I'm interested in seeing you differentiate killerSOS from kurumi and AO. I currently am reading AO Kurumi and Killer all as noobtownies, AO less noob than the others.@Kitaman - Well you can't blame me for RL obligations (I'll be less active during evening today as well). Anyways, it's not as much a scumhunting list as it is a townhunting list. At the top is Chaoser for all of the above information. Then comes KillerSOS because he honestly is making every noobscum action in the book without the orgy of information found on the others. Kurumi, Irish, and AO are all looking extremely noobtown to me. Every argument used against them could be used to argue that they're noobtown. On May 05 2011 22:13 KillerSOS wrote: I'm curious as to what a noobscum mistake I made was. I must learn something productive today! (other than still working on my paper...) This seems like an extremely weird question to ask, but i'm interested in the answer to this as well. :/ On May 06 2011 00:09 chaos13 wrote: The style of game you guys play here is way beyond what I'm used to on UG, so I apologize for my relative lack of usefulness while I try to figure things out. Kurumi has not done anything to redeem himself in my eyes. His posts have remained useless and confusing. I don't see what a townie would have to gain by lining themselves up for a lynch, so I think that is just his defense for being caught as scum, trying to make us afraid to lynch him so we aren't labeled as scum. If he flips red, then we can take a closer look at the people who are connected to him, such as Irish_Punk. He is standing out to me more than any other player so far. I find it suspicious that all you have done so far is defend irish and attack kurumi. Kurumi is in fact an easy target, so i can hardly blame anyone for wagoning him, but if that is the ONLY thing you have done, it looks fishy. FOS chaos13. On May 06 2011 02:21 DropBear wrote: ... There are a LOT of people who are hiding. Beneather Mig Amber[Light] Kenpachi GGQ Rising_Phoenix Takuna Lyter all need to talk more. The discussion is being completely dominated by the same few players. My vote remains on Beneather. added in Lyter for you. Would also like to add conversion to this list. Players like beneather and amber have been around long enough that I doubt they will be easily vote-pressured into appearing. I hope you'll consider using your vote elsewhere. On May 06 2011 03:00 Kurumi wrote: Well about Chaoser as scum,they started throwing that when he posted a newbie guide. I thought it is really dumb to say he is scum based on doing that and to spice things up,it was just the start. Still I don't understand Sandroba calling out for help without doing any real contribution,why he goes after Chaoser (and the SC2 forums posting style) and this is mainly what makes me wonder about him. Also I think he changes his vote on me because he thinks it will be easier to lynch me. When I read sandroba asking chaoser for help, I understood that to mean that Sandroba looks up to chaoser. Asking for chaoser's opinion can help sandroba validate his own opinion about conversion and at the same time make a new opinion--about chaoser! I can understand this because I think and behave the same way in thread. When Chaoser didn't really buy the analysis, sandroba dropped it for a while, imo because he respects chaoser's opinion a lot. But he still brought it up later looking for more support, showing that he actually meant what he said in the first place. All of this is consistent from my point of view with sandroba being a greenie. On May 06 2011 03:08 Forumite wrote: For trying too hard to defend Irish. ##Unote: Kurumi ##Vote: redtooth (I´m posting in the other thread too, just wanted to be polite and inform people of the voting here too, since it´s easier to see updates in the main thread) Imo, it's too early to lynch a vet. Your point is absolutely valid however, and I would like discussion of this to continue tomorrow, and if we are able to flip irish today it will be that much more meaningful. Please consider changing your vote. | ||
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On May 06 2011 05:48 Kenpachi wrote: wtf is going on guys i very konfuzed.. Kurumi is bad holy shit Lets point at someone else. QFT There is room for differences of opinion, but I would 100% rather lynch someone useless (kenpachi, takuna, lyter, etc) day 1 as opposed to a vet. | ||
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On May 05 2011 12:01 Cthsazsa wrote: Hmm, this is my rather short analysis on Conversion, since he won't make one of his own. Too many lurkers? That's funny, because you've only posted three times since the game started. You refuse to form, create, and state your own analysis. Instead, you're lurking in the shadows watching everyone quarl. Kind of hypocritical, is it not? And you know Jackal's playstyle? Because in your last post you claim to only be somewhat familiar with Pheonix's. You also say you're still bad at this game. So you must be a newbie, no? If you've played 2 games and you're still a noob, how do you expect me to know how Jackal's playstyle is if this is the first time I've played mafia? And why are you so quick to come to his defense? This was a pretty good post cthsazsa, you should do more like this. I'd like to hear more opinions on cthsazsa from kita and chaoser. So far, I agree with jackal's original reasons for pressuring, but i kind of have a null read on cthsazsa's response. The fact that he's done very little in the thread other than one-liner spam defense + a brief spat with conversion is a big strike against. But I do like his post on conversion... I'll just state this right now, I will be very surprised if kurumi does in fact flip red, and I wish sheeping townies would move their votes. There is no reason for a scum to attract attention the way that kurumi has been doing. GGQ's point about serejai is moot. There are key differences between these cases -- serejai was a hardcore lurker, kurumi is quite active; serejai was (and is) a big troll and is also demonstrably quite clever as seen by his posts elsewhere on the site, kurumi that I know of has no history on this site to make a similar conclusion; kurumi has been interacting with the thread, addressing current issues etc, serejai only did this on perhaps one occasion. There is also the language issue that makes kurumi's posts seem stranger than they actually are. And yes kurumi has made some troll posts, but that can be explained by frustration. Serejai made troll posts just because. | ||
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On May 06 2011 08:15 chaoser wrote: Also, where's Irish? He hasn't posted anything at all. i know, right? I'm going out for the evening, and since Irish hasn't posted yet, I will not remove my vote. Of the three vote leaders, I think Irish is most likely to be scum, followed by cthsazsa, followed by kurumi. See you guys later. | ||
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Newb blues should talk to Ver about night actions. I'd love to think that we're protecting protown players and checking scummy ones... | ||
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On May 06 2011 10:38 GGQ wrote: ... Also, to a large number of people in the mafia forum: the word 'weary' is not the same as the word 'wary'. To be 'weary' means you are tired or exhausted. To be 'wary' means you are cautious or on your guard. Thank you. Rofl, this one bugs me too. But not enough to say something usually. | ||
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On May 07 2011 01:32 redtooth wrote: EBWODP: Node please tell us exactly what time (TL Time or EST) that the Night officially ends. We are starting all over again. The previous pages can be used as evidence but all cases must be set forth again with new, strict standards in mind. Abide by the following:
I will not deny that I am taking draconian steps in reorganizing town. However, unless you really think what I am proposing is anti-town, shut up and deal with it. By the way, this applies to my argument against Chaoser as well. If I make an official argument and it's bad or doesn't adhere to these rules, call me out. I cosponsor these guidelines. | ||
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The problem with the thread yesterday was that everyone was posting analysis, and (almost) all of it was half-assed and not even worth responding to. Therefore nobody was responding, so none of the cases gained traction (except kurumi t.t). In this situation, scum is not pressured, scum can make weak arguments, scum can wagon freely, scum can lurk without being punished. If everyone is held to high standards, how are the scum going to contribute? if they try to do real analysis, it's either fake (therefore usually weak as well) or a bus. BTW, you are one of the shining examples in the thread so far, i doubt redtooth had you in mind when he wrote this stuff. And he answered your questions already, read his posts again. redtooth's initiative is a pro-town take over of the thread, get on board all townies. | ||
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Finally, could you explain to me why suspicious =/= scummy? I don't understand. forgot I wanted to address this. Kurumi is the PERFECT example of suspicious =/= scummy. Was kurumi's motivation for posting hard to understand? suspicious looking? YES. Was kurumi scummy? NO. In almost all situations, the number one scum objective is to not look suspicious, which is why kurumi was obviously not scum. As a general rule, people that show no concern for how they appear to people are townies. This of course is most applicable to noob level play. A large proportion of the FoSing and analysis yesterday (especially towards Kurumi) was focussed on suspicious behaviour that really was not scummy. EVERYBODY THAT HAS A PROBLEM WITH REDTOOTH'S INITIATIVE: (that's you, kita, dropbear, chaoser, etc) If you don't think the thread was in need of fixing or that redtooth's solution is bad, send a quick PM to Ver asking - What do you think about the thread environment day 1? - What would you propose should be done to improve it? I guarantee the answers you get back are - Thread is a POS, i couldn't even read it - Without PM's, your only option is to bulldog everyone into behaving. | ||
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On May 07 2011 02:38 chaoser wrote: ... I ain't going to write "I, chaoser, blah blah blah". I will however, proposition this: Amber[Light] has been playing lurker-ish I'll come back to the Irish issue once he's posted and responded to our questions to him. Anyway onto Amber. Amber is a vet player, and he generally posts a lot. Not just posts a lot, he also usually very active in calling people out and making FoS's on people he thinks is scummy. Except this game he hasn't. Most of his posts have been either asking or answer questions; in fact, out of his 5 total (game relevant) posts in this thread, he's pretty much only asked and answered questions in 3 of them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#426 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#427 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#439 In the two posts where he actually tries to take a stance on someone (In this case Kurumi), he pretty much says the reason he's voting for kurumi is because he wants information. He never outright says that he's suspicous of kurumi, just that: and before, he questions where the Kurumi flip will lead: Clearly he doesn't really support the Kurumi lynch but when questioned on if he actually believes the vote though, he responds to redtooth with: Which seems like a throw-away reason. For that, I ask that Amber start to post more. His excuse that he's at work and so he can't do much is nulled by the fact that he generally posts a lot anyway as can be seen in insane 1, and insane 2. He hasn't contributed much to the discussion even though he's clearly caught up to speed and has been reading the thread. This same sentiment is also applied to GGQ. He gives the advice to DropBear: You need to better explain your reasoning for voting Kurumi (Pretty much that he was acting like serejai aka trolling and so he's probably scum) and why you're not posting as much FoS? Vote? might we expect a fullblown analysis with an accusation soon? I must say I look forward to it if you do it. Amber is certainly a scummy player and I plan to push his lynch today, but I can't tell if you're serious about him from this post. | ||
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