Student Mafia (New/Newish players welcome) - Page 47

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Zona

40426 Posts

December 09 2011 21:59 GMT

#921

layabout is replacing Starshard

ey215

United States546 Posts

December 09 2011 22:01 GMT

#922

On December 10 2011 06:23 xtfftc wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you look at my posts from the last five days (Monday to Friday), you'll notice a pattern called "having a new job and staying away from TL during working hours" ^^

Show nested quote +

Did you see what was going on at the time? It was definitely not helping town. Mafia would want Jay waste the whole day after being caught. They would have had the very easy task to accuse Jay of something scummy (which is even easier for them since they have been talking with him all game long) and have an easy ride without doing any actual contribution. I asked BH and Veli to stop shouting and destroying the thread so that we would be able to do some scum hunting, and I think it worked as we had some more productive discussions afterwards. The mafia tries to manipulate people and this is way too open to be manipulation. Saying something such as "step away from our main target, he is dead anyway" isn't subtle or effective.. Unless you try to explain it with WIFOM, which doesn't work for a proper analysis. The whole "plan" would have only worked with a suicidal last minute switch that would have condemned the whole team for the sake of saving someone like Jay.

Show nested quote +

Read my case(s) on EY again, please. It's not just voting - although bandwagonning all game long was part of it - but about the way he didn't commit on calling Jay scum but called for his lynch for being "anti-town" (he is either scum and has to die or he is a bad, anti-town townie who should be ignored) and making a scene out of admitting that he's bandwagonning but not bothering to post some analysis before voting.

I also think that you should look at my Day 1 again. I posted a lot on xsk, I called out a few others as well (Adam, for example), and you'll see a lot of disagreeing with people. This didn't happen during Day 2 because pretty much everyone was happy to focus on Jay instead of trying to catch more mafia. No one tried to defend Jay and there was very little analysis of other players, so there was pretty much nothing to disagree with.

Show nested quote +

I stated my reasons for keeping my vote on EY. Your reasoning is pure WIFOM in this case. Jay was obviously going to be lynched hours before I posted the bit you quoted, so what could a townie do in this situation? Vote for Jay and be accused of sheeping after BH and bandwagonning (remember Tunkeg and his analysis of the Bbyte lynch?) Or vote for someone else and be accused of not voting for the obvious mafia.

Let's also consider me being mafia for the sake of discussing my actions. Vote for Jay and get accused of bandwagonning, or don't and be accused of not voting for the obvious mafia? It works both ways.

Also, BH and I discussed my vote extensivelly and you can follow it pretty easily... No idea why you would chose to ignore it all but here's the end of it anyway:

Show nested quote +

I give up, xtfftc is going to see whatever he wants about me. If other people believe it and I end up lynched for it so be it. It'll be on him.

I'm not 100% sold that he's scum, but I'm sold his behavior has been anti-town.

There's my essential reasoning that I posted with my vote. I wasn't 100% sold, but so what if you're 100% sure around here all the time you're going to be wrong a lot. His behavior coming down to the vote going on him was very much not pro-town. I commend BH for getting him to do that.

What am I supposed to do to please you? Go back and copy and paste whatever everyone else had already said in the previous couple of pages about him? Paraphrase it? BH made the best case, I voted with it. I'm glad he was persuasive.

I think the fundamental difference between you and me is that you seem to care more about appearances and I care about results. Why is that?

Also, I made a case about you/grackaroni go read the thread and respond, don't just brush it off as "he's either scum or bad town". That's not a valid argument.

Assume for a minute I'm town, now go do some cases similar to what you did on me to someone else and see if they look similar. I bet they will. Stop tunneling.

ey215

United States546 Posts

December 09 2011 22:01 GMT

#923

On that note, back to homework. I should be back before the night post comes up I only have a couple more sections worth to do.

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

December 09 2011 22:06 GMT

#924

On December 10 2011 06:59 Zona wrote:
layabout is replacing Starshard

Reference
xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&user=149333
starshard's (xsksc's replacement) filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&user=160133
layabout's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&user=233798

Layabout:
Xsksc AKA Starshard AKA Layabout, your predessecors both went afk, which means they haven't posted much. Here's what I think you should do (and you're free to choose what you want, but hey, whatever)...

1) read the thread
2) form your own read on BKEXE
3) form your own reads on everyone else
4) Post detailed analysis as soon as possible of everyone, your reads, and your reasoning. Feel free to break it up into multiple posts.

You should do this as soon as possible, so we have some material on you and can evaluate who you are and where you stand. Also, you're basically going to be doing this anyways, but if you post it in this fashion we can actually see what you're thinking. I'm currently unable to form an accurate read due to the multiple ownership-changes of this player.

BroodKingEXE

United States829 Posts

December 09 2011 23:03 GMT

#925

I am now starting to suspect ey215 as scum

First he accuses Adam, but he has no evidence:

On December 05 2011 09:38 ey215 wrote:
I agree we need to get votes on record due to time zones.

For previously stated reasons:

##Vote: Adam4167

On December 05 2011 06:18 ey215 wrote:

He says here in his read that he even needs to more posts to confirm his claim!
Adam4167 - not willing to call pro town. Will see how he posts after sleeping it off.

On December 05 2011 08:00 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Until he posted his last post, BKEXE was probably where I'd throw my vote. For the moment, that's just enough to get by. I'd like to see him answer your questions well.

So now, if we were coming to deadline I'd probably vote for Adam4167. Feels like a lot of filler, and a couple of his points I haven't agreed with. I'm honestly not really solid on anyone at the moment.
Wait, what fillers? Adam has only made three posts in the game 1) A question for the host, 2) an opinion on the prompt, and 3) an error filled response to BH. How can he have a filler if all of his posts have meaning behind it. At the same time Hassy and Bbyte had made barely any posts why not look at their lack of posts as opposed to the posts of Adam which had content (although false, but why not comment on that?

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 05 2011 07:00 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 05 2011 06:34 Grackaroni wrote:
The thing that really seemed suspicious about Ey215 to me was this.

On December 05 2011 04:49 ey215 wrote:

On December 04 2011 21:14 xtfftc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:52 xsksc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:35 xtfftc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:06 xsksc wrote:
What do you guys think of policy lynches in general? Do you think they are a good idea, if so, why?

Personally I disagree with lynching a lurker JUST because they're lurking, in a game like this anyway. The risk of hitting a townie is way too high.

Lynch all liars is a great idea though. It discourages people from lying right from day 1, the only people with a good reason to lie are scum.

Both sound great but in reality they don't work. Lynch All Liars.. People get lies and opinions mixed up all the time, and even when a lie is a lie, eventually you realise that there are different types of lies and lynching for some of them is a bit too much. Then comes the argument that if we lynch everyone caught in a lie, townies would stop lying, so we would not have to deal with all of this. But the reality is that you lynch a townie for lying, then you lose the game because of wasting a lynch in order to teach the liars a lesson, then you join another game and you realise that there's so many other players you have to teach that same lesson, and so on. If we start doing it in every single game, it might work after a while. But when you've invested a week in the game, you don't want to throw it away just because some townie attempted a stupid gamble. All you are focused on is lynching mafia.

And townies tend to get lynched for lying all the time anyway, even without having the policy in place - simply becase when someone is caught lying, they are usually accused of being mafia.

Agreeing upon whether someone is lukring or not is easier but simply lynching all lurkers is not optimal. What's important is that people realise that sometimes every active player is a townie. If your analysis leads you to the conclussion that the active players are townies, then you start lynching lurkers. That's the best we can do.

I don't understand your part about lynch all liars. Think about it logically, if we say, "Lie and you're gonna get lynched" then no townie is going to lie, are they? It's not just to teach a lesson, scum benefit greatly from lies and deceit. I want lynch-all-liers in effect today.

Also, on day 1 it's very easy for scum to post nonsense and get away with it, because day 1 can be such a mess, hell, sometimes the most active players are scum. Just because someone posts a lot doesn't make them town, lol. Look at the last newbie mini-game. Ciryandor was scum, and he posted more analysis than anyone, everyone assumed he was town and that was a big reason why town lost.

If we say lynch all liars, townies will carry on lying like they always do.
If we do lynch all liars, townies will eventually realise that they should stop.

Activity doesn't prove that someone is a townie, of course. But if you have a town read on all the active players, lynching a lurker is great.

On December 04 2011 13:01 ey215 wrote:
On the lurker bit, I do think there's a time and place for lynching. If we don't have a case on someone it's better to lynch a lurker than someone active. If they're lurking then they're not contributing or giving us something to go on. Of course, if we've got a good case on someone it's better to lynch them.

100% agree, this was pretty much my point anyway.

And there's a lot of similar views expressed later in the thread by others, so can we say that we've reached consensus? If we don't get a good case, we lynch a lurker.

Ok, just got back to the thread and I'll respond to things as I see them. I agree that we've reached a consensus to get rid of a lurker. That means lurkers, it's your time to step up and contribute.

I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A LURKER TO LYNCH, I wish every one of these players would start doing their part and contribute to town. My first priority is to analyze the active players and if as a town we cannot agree upon a scummy player then we should choose a lurker because they will remain a null read.

Instead of looking at active players your first priority is to look for a lurker to lynch, which i consider just finding an easy lynch without having to justify why you actually think that the player is scum.

First he says no one is looking for a lurker to lynch, but in the last sentence he says we should get rid of someone for not contributing. Okay, let's not look for lurkers, but still be able to lynch them for not contributing! There is no way to figure out if someone is lurking without paying attention to who is lurking!
No one is looking for a lurker to lynch. Go back and read my filter I have argued that we need to be looking at quality of posts over quantity of posts. With that being said, it's hard as hell to have a solid scum read on anyone day one, and if I have to make a choice I'm choosing someone not posting, or posting hardly anything of consequence to lynch over someone that has been active.

You don't lynch for information, you lynch scum. Barring having a good read, we should get rid of someone not contributing since they're not doing anything to help the town anyways.

This quote shows EY contradict himself.
[spoiler]

On December 05 2011 11:19 ey215 wrote:
While I'm not convinced Blazing didn't push him too hard and thus pushed him away I do notice a couple of times that ElectricBlack has said not to vote for people unless it's going to put pressure on them. Blazing's vote alone may not be enough, but I'm willing to switch mine to apply said pressure.

He also stated in his first post that breadcrumbing is bad. While it is bad if it lets the mafia know that you're the blue role, it's important to get people's names into post so that if you're blue and get shot we can go back and figure out the people you've checked out.

I'm fine with applying some pressure.
Okay you are putting some pressure on EB to get him to vote.
##Unvote: Adam4167
##Vote: ElectricBlack

On December 06 2011 06:43 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Ok, finally got back to the thread after a long day. I apologize that I haven't been back sooner. I'm going to respond to posts as I go through the thread so if anything I say gets contradicted later by someone else I want y'all to understand why.

On this post where you say you're either killing people or not, I'm more than willing to kill you tonight. I don't vote only for pressure, if I put a vote on someone I'm willing to let them hang. Wait, you just said you were voting for pressure. Don't you also say something about voting without evidence later?

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 06 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I voted for BByte on the lurker/not contributing line of reasoning. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to use it, but if someone's inactive even if town they're not really doing us any good.

Here is another one of his contradictions.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 04 2011 14:55 ey215 wrote:

Fuck, I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations therefore you're scum just trying to get the town fighting among themselves. Not to mention you're trying to get a bandwagon started on someone for either not posting because they're asleep or because of some assumed fluff.
Blames most established townie for starting a bandwagon.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 08 2011 04:15 ey215 wrote:
Fuck, I can't believe I'm jumping on the bandwagon but at the moment I don't see a better lynch option.
Jumps on a bandwagon himself

Wow that is a lot lies. While ey215 has voted he really does not make a good case look at the reason he votes for jay (I know everyone is going to say JB is dead so why care, but I am analyzing ey's random vote for him). Look:
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 07 2011 13:58 ey215 wrote:I'm personally of the opinion that we should lynch the scummiest of jayb, xtf, or hassey and see where that leads us.No reasoning whatsoever first time he mentions JB is scummy. He even says in his read (the only time he analyzes JB)

On December 08 2011 04:15 ey215 wrote:Ok, back from my final. For those that might care I think it went well.

On the Jay case: yes, he was hedging but there's a whole lot of hedging going on early in the game. Is it because he's trying to not take a definitive stand so he can't be held accountable for it later or is it because he truly doesn't know and is offering options? To me it felt like hedging, he's been pretty definitive in some of his other posts.Wait, he says jay is hedging but then he says there is a lot of hedging in the early game. How does that justify hedging? If everyone lurked in the early game does that make lurking okayOk, this got posted while I was typing this and going through filters:

Show nested quote +

I'm not 100% sold that he's scum, but I'm sold his behavior has been anti-town. ##vote: jaybrundage Votes for him nothing provided beforehand even states that he is jumping on a bandwagon, has not provided any info Fuck, I can't believe I'm jumping on the bandwagon but at the moment I don't see a better lynch option.Now that I've voted I do want to talk about the EB killing. I know it's WIFOM, but I keep going around about it and it just doesn't make sense unless he was on to something or a threat to BH (if he's scum). I'm not convinced he had Hasseybaby right, but I think one of the three he had listed is for sure scum. He just hadn't posted enough to be a huge threat and may have even been someone they could get a lynch going on.At the moment, I'm willing to give BH the benefit of a doubt. After seeing how well he's baited jaybrundage into slipping I think, if town, he's a valuable resource. It seems like we've got two mini battles going on right now xtsc(or replacement)/tunkeg and jaybrundage/BH. I notice that they both involve names that EB threw out. If jay flips town I think we look at lynching BH, if he's mafia he manipulated jay into slipping masterfully.

And this random vote catches him in one last lie:

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 08 2011 07:55 ey215 wrote:
I was responding to two different people, why is this so hard to understand? To further clarify the point I was making is not scummy it is important. I don't think voting haphazardly is a good idea. I'll go on and respond to your upcoming response, my vote on Jay is not haphazardly throwing my vote around. I think he's the best case and am willing to lynch him. the same way I was willing to lynch BByte..

As soon as day hits EY is my vote.

Adam4167

Australia1426 Posts

December 09 2011 23:03 GMT

#926

On December 10 2011 06:41 Blazinghand wrote:
I think we need to get out of a mindset that "if A accuses B and B flips town, A is mafia". It's certainly possible that A is mafia, but it's also possible that A was just wrong.

IF xtfftc things ey215 is scum, and if ey215 gets lynched and flips town, then maybe xtfftc is the scummiest remaining player so he should be lynched. Or, maybe, he's not. Then you should lynch whoever is the scummiest, even though xtfftc was wrong.

Base lynches off of evidence whenever possible.

*back to work*

Oh, I fully agree, and It was something I never planned on following through with.

When I was reading xtfftc's analysis, I couldn't help but find myself unconvinced. I was wondering if it was because he himself was unconvinced, which by the sound of it, he is.

I thought it was slightly rash that you put your head on the block for jay's lynching. I will admit, I had some doubts early on, especially after reading the Mini Mafia X thread, where he was erratic and not very useful... and flipped town.

Adam4167

Australia1426 Posts

December 09 2011 23:10 GMT

#927

On December 10 2011 08:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I am now starting to suspect ey215 as scum

First he accuses Adam, but he has no evidence:

Show nested quote +

Ok, I have only read the first 2 quotes, but take a look at the time stamps.

ey215 actually said the 2nd quote first, wanting to give me a bit more time to explain my shitty behavior, then 3 hours later he drops his vote on me. BKE, you are trying to make it look like ey215 is backpedaling on his vote. Stop misrepresenting the truth.

I'm now going back to entirely read this - very skeptically.

Grackaroni

United States9846 Posts

December 09 2011 23:11 GMT

#928

I'm sticking with the scumteam I was calling earlier.
BKEXE labeling Ey215 scum now continues to reinforce my belief. (Ey215 wants to lynch xtfftc)
JB
BKEXE.
Xtfftc.
That's just my thoughts, there have been cases made earlier on both of these guys.
Not going to do any analysis tonight though; have to study for a test. See you guys soon! (unless I die

)

xtfftc

United Kingdom2343 Posts

December 09 2011 23:14 GMT

#929

Assume for a minute I'm town, now go do some cases similar to what you did on me to someone else and see if they look similar. I bet they will. Stop tunneling

Okay, let me remind you that last night I asked who to focus on during my limited time and both BH and Tunkeg wanted me to continue building my case on you.

Also, I did the same tunneling with Adam and called him out on his scummy posts and even put him on my shortlist for lynch on Day 1 but then I realised I was probably wrong. I did it with xsk and I still consider him a serious candidate for the last mafia spot but the inactivity has been a serious issue.
This is how you play mafia. It's a team game, even if you're a townie. You look at people, you make town reads and mafia reads, then you try to confirm or refute your suspicion. You can't spend the same amount of time analysing everyone... And this is why I've been trying to facilitate discussion on a broaded range of targets since Day 1 - sheeping after one player is too risky, even if this player is town.

Anyway, I won't be posting on you for a while after this post. I have done what I can on your case and it's the other players' responsibility to read and to make up their own minds.

On December 10 2011 07:01 ey215 wrote:
Also, I made a case about you/grackaroni go read the thread and respond

Let's look at it again, shall we?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&currentpage=42#821

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 09 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:
Ok, I was going to save this for tomorrow as I didn’t think I was going to need it today and was still doing the research, but Tunkeg’s probability lynching forced my hand.

For the record, I do think Tunkeg is onto something.

I’ll start that by saying that I understand why he left himself out, but it would be wise of the town to remember that he too voted for BByte and needs to be looked at just as strongly as the rest of us. I’m not making that case here, mainly because after reading his stuff I don’t think he’s scum, but some other eyes on it would be nice. The only thing that has me concerned about him at the moment is the way he’s grabbed onto xttfc’s case against me, then managed to put my name twice into his lists on the probability lynches and then mildly pushed BH to look at it deeper, therefore potentially getting a bandwagon rolling.

For today, I’m not that worried about it but look in the future how these cases and lynches of townies developed.

I have come to believe that the mafia started laying the groundwork for future cases on townies in Day 1 so as not to appear to just be switching from one day to another. At the time that this case started against me, I was looking like I’d be a counter weight to BH and therefore might have some persuasive power around here. It has not turned out that way, but remember the context when this starts.

At that point in Day 1, BH and I had our argument, got over it and moved on, then xtfftc comes around and decides that based off of being defensive and to make sure to hammer that point home cherry picks some quotes out of context and uses them six hours later to plant his seeds.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 04 2011 21:18 xtfftc wrote:

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Policy or not, everyone should be doing this. Mafia are bound to slip and they will also be reluctant to talk about their teammates slipping, so this is very pro-town behaviour. If you see something you consider to be a lie, mention it. You might be wrong but it's important anyway. And it will also help differentiate between townies who are hunting for mafia and the mafia players who are trying not to attract attention.

(I still think that pushing for heavy policies is pro-mafia though, it takes the pressure away from them by allowing them to follow some simple guidelines)

Show nested quote +

Town doesn't benefit from last minute lynches, mafia does. If you see someone suddenly pushing for a lynch near the deadline when there isn't enough time for a proper discussion, it is very likely that this person is mafia.

Show nested quote +

Dude, no need to be so defensive. Blazinghand is trying hard to organise the town. I don't agree with some of his ideas but they are stuff to be discussed. There is absolutely no need for a townie to react like you did. Blazing's play so far is great.

Then he gives this gem:

Show nested quote +

If I’m such a strong read, why didn’t you push to lynch me at all Day 1? I put forth the theory that no one responded really latched onto the idea, and you didn’t want to go out of your way to stand out that early. You’ve been setting up this Day 2 attempt at a lynch since yesterday.

Also, while this is going on we get Grackaroni coming around and starts by giving this read on me:

Show nested quote +

Then starts subtlety leading Tunked to me:

Show nested quote +

So they let it go for the day and don’t really try to get the bandwagon going. Now look what happens today, we get the case against me followed almost immediately by a post by Grackaroni trying to get BH to take a look:

Show nested quote +

The beauty of those two posts by Grackaroni is that they allow him to steer how other people my look at someone and get them to make the case on me, instead of he having to do it himself. He can let BH get or not get a bandwagon going, and no one remembers the actual post that started him down that road.

I believe these two have been working together from the outset and the only side that could coordinate like that is mafia.

Now, again I’d like to see xtfftc respond to some accusations about him without just brushing it off as trolling as he did with EB. Since EB was conveniently killed overnight, he wasn’t here to defend himself and xtfftc was let off scot free. Again, killing EB made no sense unless he was on to at least one scum in that list. I currently think it was two, Jay and xtfftc.

I know you're asking yourself this townies, "But wait! You can't prove any of this unless you're town and we're not sure that you are!". Yes, I know that's why I expect that if the lynch goes through tonight you'll be able to use some of this on Day 3.

So, my scum list:

jaybrundage, xtfftc, Grackaroni

Enjoy.

Let's first cut all the unrelated stuff out. I'll mark them in bold and explain why in green.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 09 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:
Ok, I was going to save this for tomorrow as I didn’t think I was going to need it today and was still doing the research, but Tunkeg’s probability lynching forced my hand.
blahblahblah

For the record, I do think Tunkeg is onto something.
for the record, blahblahblah

I’ll start that by saying that I understand why he left himself out, but it would be wise of the town to remember that he too voted for BByte and needs to be looked at just as strongly as the rest of us. I’m not making that case here, mainly because after reading his stuff I don’t think he’s scum, but some other eyes on it would be nice. The only thing that has me concerned about him at the moment is the way he’s grabbed onto xttfc’s case against me, then managed to put my name twice into his lists on the probability lynches and then mildly pushed BH to look at it deeper, therefore potentially getting a bandwagon rolling.
Some bits about Tunkeg voting for Bbyte but "not making a case here" (typical: not commiting, just saying something mildly critical in another player's general direction), something about Tunkeg agreeing with my case and so on... Not about me and Grack at all really, so what is it doing in our case?

For today, I’m not that worried about it but look in the future how these cases and lynches of townies developed.
filler

I have come to believe that the mafia started laying the groundwork for future cases on townies in Day 1 so as not to appear to just be switching from one day to another. At the time that this case started against me, I was looking like I’d be a counter weight to BH and therefore might have some persuasive power around here. It has not turned out that way, but remember the context when this starts.

At that point in Day 1, BH and I had our argument, got over it and moved on, then xtfftc comes around and decides that based off of being defensive and to make sure to hammer that point home cherry picks some quotes out of context and uses them six hours later to plant his seeds.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 04 2011 21:18 xtfftc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2011 13:20 Velinath wrote:
I would like to add that if you see what you think is a lie, it's probably best to bring it to the attention of the thread

Policy or not, everyone should be doing this. Mafia are bound to slip and they will also be reluctant to talk about their teammates slipping, so this is very pro-town behaviour. If you see something you consider to be a lie, mention it. You might be wrong but it's important anyway. And it will also help differentiate between townies who are hunting for mafia and the mafia players who are trying not to attract attention.

(I still think that pushing for heavy policies is pro-mafia though, it takes the pressure away from them by allowing them to follow some simple guidelines)

Show nested quote +
On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.

As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot

Town doesn't benefit from last minute lynches, mafia does. If you see someone suddenly pushing for a lynch near the deadline when there isn't enough time for a proper discussion, it is very likely that this person is mafia.
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2011 14:55 ey215 wrote:
As for you're statements about lynching all lurkers unless someone gives you a "DAMN GOOD REASON', well having a scumread is one. Am I good with lynching a lurker today, sure but let's not go talking about how you've got a good scum read on anyone that's posted once.

Fuck, I can say you've hardly posted anything but baseless accusations therefore you're scum just trying to get the town fighting among themselves. Not to mention you're trying to get a bandwagon started on someone for either not posting because they're asleep or because of some assumed fluff.

Dude, no need to be so defensive. Blazinghand is trying hard to organise the town. I don't agree with some of his ideas but they are stuff to be discussed. There is absolutely no need for a townie to react like you did. Blazing's play so far is great.

Nice long quote which mostly has nothing to do with him. The tiny bit that does he doesn't question.... He simply quoted me to proove that I wasn't impressed by him being overly defensive. If you look at the EY vs BH argument from Day 1, you will notice that EY agreed that he was overly defensive due to BH being a overly aggressive.

I'd like to respond to the couple of people talking about me being defensive. Yes I was defensive, as a townie I don't want to get lynched and seeing my name go up as someone posting filler (which I don't agree was true) caused me to be defensive. This was specifically what I was talking about with Blazing's methods. It basically caused me to be defensive when there was no reason to be.

(see, that's how you do it - you say something and you provide proof)

Yet, for some reason if I point it out I'm "hammering the point" and "cherry picking quotes out of context" and "planting my seeds" and whatnot.

Then he gives this gem:

ey215 is my strongest mafia read for now though... Having to call out someone on scummy behaviour two times just a few hours into a mini game doesn't bode well for that person.

If I’m such a strong read, why didn’t you push to lynch me at all Day 1? I put forth the theory that no one responded really latched onto the idea, and you didn’t want to go out of your way to stand out that early. You’ve been setting up this Day 2 attempt at a lynch since yesterday.
Completely irrelevant. This was from way early in the game, before I posted on xsk and Adam and Jay. This quote is from 13 hours into the game, yet apparently I was supposed to completely ignore the other 3/4 of Day 1 and push for EY... If not, it's obviously a mafia conspiracy.

From now on he focuses on Grackaroni. This is his whole case on our conspiracy to push for his lynch during Day 2. I can comment on the Grackaroni bits as well but I'm spending more than enough time on EY anyway, so I'll skip them.

Also, while this is going on we get Grackaroni coming around and starts by giving this read on me:

Show nested quote +

Then starts subtlety leading Tunked to me:

Show nested quote +

The beauty of those two posts by Grackaroni is that they allow him to steer how other people my look at someone and get them to make the case on me, instead of he having to do it himself. He can let BH get or not get a bandwagon going, and no one remembers the actual post that started him down that road.

End of Grackaroni bit

I believe these two have been working together from the outset and the only side that could coordinate like that is mafia.
More filler

Now, again I’d like to see xtfftc respond to some accusations about him without just brushing it off as trolling as he did with EB. Since EB was conveniently killed overnight, he wasn’t here to defend himself and xtfftc was let off scot free. Again, killing EB made no sense unless he was on to at least one scum in that list. I currently think it was two, Jay and xtfftc.

Now he's talking about EB for some reason, which is also not related to his case. Not to mention that there was no EB case for me to respond to anyway.

I know you're asking yourself this townies, "But wait! You can't prove any of this unless you're town and we're not sure that you are!". Yes, I know that's why I expect that if the lynch goes through tonight you'll be able to use some of this on Day 3.

Even more filler

So, my scum list:

jaybrundage, xtfftc, Grackaroni

Enjoy.

Next step: we remove the irrelevant bits:

On December 10 2011 07:01 ey215 wrote:
I have come to believe that the mafia started laying the groundwork for future cases on townies in Day 1 so as not to appear to just be switching from one day to another. At the time that this case started against me, I was looking like I’d be a counter weight to BH and therefore might have some persuasive power around here. It has not turned out that way, but remember the context when this starts.

At that point in Day 1, BH and I had our argument, got over it and moved on, then xtfftc comes around and decides that based off of being defensive and to make sure to hammer that point home cherry picks some quotes out of context and uses them six hours later to plant his seeds.

Yes, his whole "case" on me is two paragraphs long. Not to mention that these two paragraphs are not particularly convincing either.

I have come to believe that the mafia started laying the groundwork for future cases on townies in Day 1 so as not to appear to just be switching from one day to another. At the time that this case started against me, I was looking like I’d be a counter weight to BH and therefore might have some persuasive power around here. It has not turned out that way, but remember the context when this starts.

This bit is at least somewhat related to his case, which is better - but it uses terrible logic. BH has been very pro-town since early Day 1. Enter EY, who claims to be a counter weight to BH. If EY and BH are both town and EY is arguing with BH, why would mafia prepare to bus EY? They would want EY to stay around and waste BH's time.

At that point in Day 1, BH and I had our argument, got over it and moved on, then xtfftc comes around and decides that based off of being defensive and to make sure to hammer that point home cherry picks some quotes out of context and uses them six hours later to plant his seeds.

I didn't call you mafia based on this. I called you "dude". I was still under the impression that you're town because of your nice opening post, so it's also irrelevant actually... This makes it just the previous paragraph then.

That's it, I'm done with EY. I'm so tired of analysing his play that I can't even be bothered to write half a sentence to summarise what I said.

ey215

United States546 Posts

December 09 2011 23:23 GMT

#930

Alright, going on the line of reasoning that I had previously stated I would here's jay's first set of reads from Day 1:

On December 05 2011 06:25 jaybrundage wrote:
My reads so far

Adam4167-
Ok so far i have a scum read on adam I you can see in my last post why
click He just comes off happy to stay off the radar I dont like how he is going about his game. Just posting ot barely keep up. And in general comes off apathetic. He says hes a bored townie but i think it could be a lurking mafia

BByte-
He has posted but not alot he seems content to just respond to people. He did comment about breadcrumbs which is true. Its funny because in my game of Mini Mafia X WBG claimed a blue role and because he breadcrumbed it people beleived him. He did post his reads on people which is good. I would like to see more posting from him. My question is what do you think of adam Bbyte
.
Blazinghand-
Blazinghand has been the biggest posting factor atm. Trying to keep people from lurking and in general trying to generate discussion. While it may not be kosher its seems like its working great. People have responded to his prods. My biggest concern is if he was mafia he would be doing a terrific job. I agree that he has been very pro town. But remember guys putting to much trust in someone is always a mistake. So be wary

BroodKingEXE-
Ok so far i posted a little to nothing. I gave my read on him before. clickerz Well i said previously that he gave off a non pro-town vibe off. I have to disagree now. Rereading his posts I just think hes just new town. Well he can be a bit hard to read i still think hes just a newbie that doesnt know whats scummy and whats townlike. However Regardless We do need to see some posts from you about what you think about other players. If you continue to post like you are you are prolly gonna get lynched. So post your content. If its wrong is not what matters what matters is that you gave your opinion.

ElectricBlack-
Ok so far ElectricBlack hasnt posted much so far. His last post was pretty good containing content about the lynching policies. His respond to BH and about how he though BH was doing a decent job of making discussion. I would really would like to get your reads on the town tho. He does bring up a good point while BH is prolly town we can completly rule anyone out as scum. Establishing thread presence is a good think for both townies and mafia to do. But again i would like you reads. So far i have a null read

ey215- Has posted alot. Mostly because of the arguement between him and and BH. BH called him out for a no content post ey responded by saying BH was making baseless accusations. And it escalated from there. Veli was trying to bring the heat down a bit (good by him). But eventually they decided to just settle things, ey defended himself well. Although to be honest im not sure of his alignment as far. He could be mafia who just did a great job defending himself or a townie who made sure that BH is not going to unchecked. Im going to keep my eye on him.

Grackaroni-
So far he has posted his reads and gave a good bit of content. Giving his reads and trying to keep everyone on the same page He mentioned that he agrees with hassybaby about not making straight up accusations like Tunkeg did so early in the game when people havent posted alot. Will i dont really agree with this. I think coming out with your town reads is always good. Premature sometimes but good. I do agree with his case on Adam tho so far hes still the scummiest in my book. So far i got a pretty good town read on him.

Hassybaby-
Ok so Hassybaby got outright accused of mafia with out even posting. Maybe we should go with people guts and just lynch him lol. Well his first post comes out and talks about the LaL policy. He mentions that we should not just lynch a lurker or liar if we have a good read on someone. I think that we all agreed on this. He then talks about how he doesnt like Tunkeg accusations However i mentioned before i dont think It is the wrong thing to do to put your reads out there. I personally like waiting for everyone to post but regardless. He then tells Tunkeg that He is accusing people to much. I still disagree with this. Tunkeg is generating discussion. I honestly think aggressive scum hunting is completely fine. I don't agree with him on his points. Weather he is scum or not is hard to tell i would like his reads before jumping to conclusions

Tunkeg-
Ok So i have mixed feelings on Tunkeg First off he comes out with his alignment posts and calls out a nonposter and me as being scum. Honeslty i think you should let people post before calling them mafia lol. I do like how he is poking and generating discussion. While i think his biggest disappointment thing was still stupid which he mentions as well. Hassy mentions that he thinks tunkeg is accusing to many people early in the game. But i think that while Tunkeg has said somethings that i dont neccesary agree with i do think its furthing a town agenda. I do think hes coming off protown even if his accusations are not always right. Tunkeg what d

Velinath-
Well as far i see Veli as being at townie. he talks about the policies a good bit Actually alot but that what the current conversation was about. he kind of gets on BKEXE case. Which i kinda did at the start as well Its really hard to read BKEXE but i still do think hes a townie. And then he gives his reads alot of them were null reads but it is still hard to place alignments on people this early in the game. I do find his amount of posting comforting tho. Makes it a bit easier to disguish his alignment.

xsksc-
Ok so i like his first post. It pretty much generated the discussion we had on policy lynches and so forth it was good to get out of the way. He mentions posts about breadcrumbs not proving blues which i agree with. talks about policies a good bit. and then tell BH to not be trigger happy. Its kinda funny that everyone gave an opinion on BH. Again aggressive scumhunting is good imo and making people post is great. He got called out on not scum hunting. Which i kinda agree with. he started the conversation about lynching talked about that for a while and then goes and doesnt give much of his reads or even analyzes any posts. I want to see his reads but im leaning scummy

xtfftc-
Well so far i dont really agree with his policy posts. I do think lynch all liars is a fine policy. He mentions that last minute lynches are a bad thing and i have to agree. he strongly agrees that everyone should post regardless of how we get them to post so he agrees with BH method. He calls out Ey as his strongest mafia read tho. Ill have to go over ey's posts again. As my read was no where near strong on Ey. He also mentions that While people can buddy up for instance BH and Veli that they can often be town and posts an example Syllogism and Sandroba. I do agree that both. So far a null read. I would like to see more of your reads tho

Well thats what i got so far plz everyone tell me what yall think this took fucking forever thank god for filters tho.

As I read it what he's saying:

Adam - trying to get a lynch going on him early by saying that "I think he's a lurking mafia". Goes on a couple more times that day to try to get a lynch train going on Adam. I'd say this is a good thing for Adam.

BByte - Basically agrees with him on breadcruming, but doesn't really give a read.

BH - Starts laying the groundwork to get him when a lynch goes bad.

BK - Backs off an earlier statement that he gave off a "non pro-town vibe". Then proceeds to paint him as a newbie town and even gives him some tips on how not to get lynched.

EB - Listed as null read.

Me - Thougth i defended myself well, then proceeds to state "He could be mafia who just did a great job defending himself... I'm going to keep my eye on him." I will allow others to read/not read what they want into this.

Grackaroni - "I do agree with his case on Adam tho so far hes still the summiest in my book. So far I have a pretty good town read on him." Disagreed with him on one point, but was in a safe way to do so at the time.

Hassybaby - Basically disagrees with a lot of what Hassy said in his few posts. Null read.

Tunkeg - Points out Tunkeg had called him scum. Ends up with, "I do think hes coming off protown even if his accusations are not always right". I think this was his way to get Tunkeg off his back. This reads well for Tunkeg.

Velinath - Uses the opportunity to reinforce BK as town, "Which I kinda did at the start as well its really hard to read BKEXE but i still do think hes a townie." Says, "Well as far as I see Veli as being townie" I honestly think this was a case of him just trying to get on Vel's good side.

xsksc (was still him at this point): "I want to see his reads but im leaning scummy"

xtfftc: "Well so far i dont really agree with his policy posts. I do think lynch all liars is a fine policy. He mentions that last minute lynches are a bad thing and i have to agree. he strongly agrees that everyone should post regardless of how we get them to post so he agrees with BH method. He calls out Ey as his strongest mafia read tho. Ill have to go over ey's posts again. As my read was no where near strong on Ey. He also mentions that While people can buddy up for instance BH and Veli that they can often be town and posts an example Syllogism and Sandroba. I do agree that both. So far a null read. I would like to see more of your reads tho"

I'll let you make your own read, I don't think I can do it in an unbiased way.

So what do I take from all of this?

I think it strengthens the case for BH, Adam and Tunkeg being scum.

I think it puts the nail in the coffin on BK. It's enough additional evidence to at least convince me that the case on BK is stronger than any other case currently out there. Hell he even tried to reinforce the "newbie town" thing that a lot of Vel's case is built off of. Until I read this in context I hadn't fully comprehended the case on him.

Nice catch on them defending each other all game Adam.

From this post I'll be taking a further look at the filters for (listed in order of Jay's post):

Grackaroni
xsksc (but that's a pain in the ass at the moment)
Vel (but if BK turns scum I think we're good there)

ey215

United States546 Posts

December 09 2011 23:39 GMT

#931

On December 10 2011 08:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I am now starting to suspect ey215 as scum

First he accuses Adam, but he has no evidence:

Show nested quote +

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 05 2011 07:00 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 05 2011 06:34 Grackaroni wrote:
The thing that really seemed suspicious about Ey215 to me was this.

On December 05 2011 04:49 ey215 wrote:

On December 04 2011 21:14 xtfftc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:52 xsksc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:35 xtfftc wrote:

Ok, just got back to the thread and I'll respond to things as I see them. I agree that we've reached a consensus to get rid of a lurker. That means lurkers, it's your time to step up and contribute.

This quote shows EY contradict himself.
[spoiler]

Show nested quote +

On December 06 2011 06:43 ey215 wrote:

On December 05 2011 20:54 ElectricBlack wrote:
Yes.

Pressure is stupid. Either you're killing people or not. There should never exist no such thing as a pressure vote. But clearly we don't agree on that. I need to re-think my stance on you.

I am not willing to commit to a lynch candidate at this moment, I will however within a few hours explain and elaborate on my statement about hassybaby.

On December 06 2011 07:18 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I voted for BByte on the lurker/not contributing line of reasoning. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to use it, but if someone's inactive even if town they're not really doing us any good.

Here is another one of his contradictions.

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 08 2011 04:15 ey215 wrote:
Fuck, I can't believe I'm jumping on the bandwagon but at the moment I don't see a better lynch option.
Jumps on a bandwagon himself

On December 08 2011 04:15 ey215 wrote:Ok, back from my final. For those that might care I think it went well.

Show nested quote +

And this random vote catches him in one last lie:

+ Show Spoiler +

As soon as day hits EY is my vote.

Well I guess getting me lynched would buy you one more day. A little obvious of a play to try to save yourself though isn't it?

layabout

United Kingdom2600 Posts

December 09 2011 23:44 GMT

#932

as of right now i need to sleep,
I will post some detailed thoughts in the morning

good job so far though

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

December 10 2011 00:42 GMT

#933

Good morning, gentlemen. I hope to see the dawn. A new dawn, over a new era, one in which BKEXE, the 2nd mafia member, is lynched.

Even if I do not live to see this dawn, I hope that you can make it a reality. Perhaps all you have is your voice and your vote, but that is all you need. With only 1 mafia player left, you will easily be able to find him out and destroy him.

We should lynch BKEXE tomorrow, whether I live or die.

Executive Case Summary:
BKEXE is a lurker. He's not a lurker due to not being here, he just chooses not to post. When he does post, he deliberately hedges, makes obvious, bland statements and/or tries to bail out mafia players or misdirect lynches. He's doing a careful job of staying "under the radar" while still posting occasionally. His defense of JB is telling, not because he defends JB (which any misguided Townie could do) but because instead of defending JB, he tries to direct the conversation in a different direction. The fact that he doesn't make a positive statement until it's clear that the JB lynch won't be stopped, and the way he goes about it are not indicative of someone who is unsure-- they are indicative of someone who reluctantly decided to bus an ally.

The fact of the matter is, he's trying VERY hard to lurk and not be suspicious, except to defend his mafia friend. BKEXE is scum and we must kill him tomorrow.

Detailed Case Information
Literally every post BKEXE has made so far will be quoted here, in spoilers, with my narrative analysis. You can find the executive summary above. The chapters are in Chronological Order.

I. Introductions and Policy Debates
Called out for being a lurker, BKEXE is slimy, noncommittal, and very scummy, and has to be bailed out by JB.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 04 2011 13:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys!

Great to be joining. I think that when we vote we should make sure people did not mispeak.
I think that we all need to figure out what we want to do as a group.

What do you think?

This is his sole post for quite some time. I call him out fairly early on, voting for him.

He responds, initially with a meaningless excuse:

On December 04 2011 14:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey Blazinghand sorry if I came around to be a little shady.
I was just trying to feed into the conversation, about the voting. How do we want to plan the lynching with the time zone difference? I feel like this will be a major roadblock as it will be 12 AM for our friends in the UK.

As for my earlier comment I just wanted to say hi. Did not mean to get off on the wrong foot

So far, there's nothing to really indicate he's town, except that he's being utterly unhelpful. "feed into the conversation?" He added nothing. However, again, one or two posts like this isn't really a problem. Other people here have begun seriously discussing policy issues about lurkers and liars, and taking positions and generally showing personality.

BKEXE, however, is not interested in that. At all. He makes some factually true statements that echo other posters. Again, not individually something bad, but just the latest in a series of posts that don't peg him as anything.

On December 04 2011 14:51 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys,

Well I think that Lynching any inconsistent comments is definitely a good idea. We need to be sure that any information we are getting is consistent and to keep the amount of strategies that the mob could be using low. As for the lurkers I agree that when in doubt we should vote for the lurkers. The information that they have could be useful or they could just be neglecting to play the game, which means they should not be playing at all.

Now, here's something interesting: Velinath calls him out after this post. This is the first serious attack on BKEXE besides my initial pressure vote. Velinath points out a trivial logical contradiction that BKEXE has made. Velinath's assault:

On December 04 2011 14:54 Velinath wrote:
Speaking of inconsistencies, you mention voting for any inconsistent statement here, but in your previous post you say:

Show nested quote +

What changed your mind, or is this a misstatement?

As you can see, Veli is basically being an ass here. He's criticism is aimed at the correct poster and actually at the correct posts, but he's missed out the crucial thing here: BKEXE is refusing to commit on Lynch All Liars. This isn't BKEXE misstating something; this is BKEXE purposefully saying vaguely contradictory information so that he doesn't have a solid base of statements to be held accountable for.

What's truly telling, however, is BKEXE's retort:

On December 04 2011 15:10 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Velinath,

I said to check for inconsistent statements and you did. The fact that I said to check for mistakes in their inconsistent statements still stands though, as you point out through asking me about my inconsistent comment.

This sentence has no meaning. At all. It's not a response, it's him just saying "nop nop nope"... However, it gets buried as at this exact moment, EY215 and I have our infamous fight, which instantly consumes a page of the thread, and this statement isn't immediately scrutinized. He does, however, follow it up with

On December 04 2011 15:13 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Blazinghand,

As long as the mob goes down you can do whatever you have to.

On December 04 2011 15:15 BroodKingEXE wrote:
jay is right that i am new.

And of course, JB springs to his aid with a classic "meaningless JB post":

On December 04 2011 15:15 jaybrundage wrote:

Show nested quote +

I am happy to see you posting more, tho remember when ever you do post try to give your opinions and rereading the thread can prove useful.

See, this post is JB hedging, as usual, but doing it in a way that at first glance looks critical and helpful to BKEXE. Look! BKEXE is being quoted and responding to JB! He's clearly interacting in a meaningful fashion with the main discussion, right? It's easy not to notice this.

EY and I proceed to argue (with Veli involved as well) for about a page and a half, and BKEXE fades into the background.

He returns about 15 hours later, which isn't too unreasonable-- this is consistent with someone who both sleeps and is away from a recreational computer for a fair amount of time.

II. Initial Reads and Scumlists
After being read as scum by several players, BKEXE returns to the thread and defends himself-- poorly. He votes for Adam
+ Show Spoiler +

BKEXE is, at this moment, on several people's scum lists. He returns and defends himself while giving the reads.

On December 05 2011 07:06 BroodKingEXE wrote:
For all of you who are getting a bad read on me, I want to confirm that I am a newbie. While I respect that Blazinghand has been pusing to prevent lurkers my reponses were obivouisly to defend myself. I feel that it is still a strategy that will work to get reads on the mafia, even if it has put me in the red. In the early stages of the game I feel that there is no way I would be able to get any proper reads as a newbie, but right now I am leaning to:

Mafia:

Adam - his critism of Blazinghand's style comes right after a compliment showing that he is defininetly trying to kiss up to him.

Hassy - he also critized Blazinghand's style in that he accuses him of targeting people early. His votes were clearly for getting people to talk, not at all to decide who to lynch.

Townies:
Blazing - has been contributing to the discussion and trying to get others to talk.

Velinath - I am kind of borderline on this as he has been contributing, but he seems to be following Blazing as opposed to creating comments of his own.

Turnkeg - I think he has been pressuring a little, trying to get a read,but I will go for townie.

Grackoroni - I will put him here because in one of his comments he left his own name on Turneg's read list and did not comment. I feel like this would have been something that he could have used to push his case.

As for the rest I feel like I have not got enough infomation. I am going to be off for the next few hours as I have a project due, but I will be sure to take a break to put my vote in.

He tosses out some reads, none of which have any meaning or any quotes. His defense for his scummy play the previous day was "I was defending myself against Blazinghand".

Most people, btw, who defended themselves against me, reacted in aggressive, assertive manners, posting, insulting me, arguing, etc-- the kind of thing someone who knows he's innocent would do if someone got all up in his grill. BKEXE? no, he did nothing of the sort. He tried his best, instead, to hide. For good examples of people responding to my attacks aggressively, check out Adam, EY, and EB. These are people who either a) are innocent and so reacted aggressively or b) are mafia and good at acting innocent. BKEXE, though, continues to dodge.

He defends himself again an hour and a half later, as Velinath goes after him harder.

On December 05 2011 09:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Venilath

You have good reason to be suspicious of me changing my tone, but BH's style forced me to be hastily defensive in the first few posts I made. These posts put me in even more trouble, so I am focusing more on well thought out posts. You can read in to the first posts all you want, but they are defininetly not an accurate representation of the mob. If I were really in the mob, even as a newbie, do you think I would really be that hasty in my posts not bothering to think of the repurcussions?

And here we have it, gentlemen! obvious WIFOM! "I'm not mafia because mafia wouldn't make the obvious mistakes I did!"

The fact of the matter is, BKEXE is bad at mafia. It should be obvious from the posts so far. The question is, GIVEN THAT HE PLAYED SHITTY, is he a shitty mafia player or a shitty town player? Well, you can't rule either out! Defending with WIFOM is unusually shitty... so shitty.

I call him out for the obvious WIFOM. He decides to vote against Adam, which is fairly reasonable, due to a number of factors pointing towards Adam at the time. A lot of people voted for adam, each with their own reasons. Let's examine BKEXE's and see if they make sense...

On December 05 2011 09:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:
##Vote Adam4167

Ah yes, that's right. He didn't post a reason.

On December 05 2011 10:03 BroodKingEXE wrote:

Show nested quote +

You mention that you are a newbie, yet you have read up on other games before this one. Well not everyone does that, so this is truly the first game I have experienced. After my posts I took a step back and looked at them and I saw that they were terribly thought out. In the heat of the moment a newbie would obviously falter.

"Blah blah blah blah i'm a newb so clearly i'm not mafia leave me alone plz why are you so pro you're clearly not noob"

The thing is, his reasoning isn't even bad, it's just that it's bad given that he hasn't done anything useful since then.

He finally posts some reasonign:

On December 05 2011 10:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hassy if you need evidence read this:

Show nested quote +

On December 05 2011 01:38 Adam4167 wrote:

On December 04 2011 21:39 Tunkeg wrote:

So are you trying to establish yourself as a boring townie by not posting anything or what?

Adam, a couple of questions for you:

What is your thoughts on Blazinghand's aggressiveness? How do you perceive him thus far? Is his play pro-town or anti-town?

Any thoughts on xsksc's play? Is he a key player in this game? If he is scum, what effect will that have on the game?

If my lack of posting thus far has crowned me as a boring townie, I guess it’s a mantle I’ll wear; I had a Sunday off and decided to go out drinking.

My thoughts on Blazinghands aggression so far is that I feel he is trying to generate discussion. However, I question whether he is trying too hard to establish himself as a townie by his badgering. This, coupled with his apparent buddy-buddy relationship with Velinath has me keeping a close eye on both of them as I find it strange that they are apparently “BFF’s” after only 12 hours of play. So to directly answer your question, Tunkeg, I find his behaviour suspicious and erring on the side of Anti-town.This is the main reason I want to vote for adam, when I first read this I realized that BH had only made four votes. The evidence he includes to back his statement is wrong, so that means that the statement although long as hastily thought out, not paying attention to what is going on, and therefore contributing as a towns member 5 separate votes in 12 hours is akin to spam and is just leading the town around in circles, rather than focusing on any one target.

Xsksc is someone I’m more familiar with after close examination of the Newbie Mini Mafia thread. So far he has begun discussion, scolded Blazinghands reckless aggression and defended himself well when called out. Is he a key player in the game? Not yet, but neither is anyone else. This is also a bogus statement. He says that there are no major players in the game when he points out above that BH voted for half the players. To me that is a major move in itself. If he had read the forum at all he would have seen that BH has gotten the majority of players, including myself, to speak Is he pro-town? All signs are pointing towards yes. If he turns out to be mafia, id hope to think we can still catch him out and hang him even with his greater mafia experience over us.

On December 04 2011 16:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Adam has correctly noted that there are no no-lynches in his sole post. Helpful, but not enormously so. Also, he's certainly awake since he's Australian. I'm gonna slap my vote on him and wait for him to contribute some more. Maybe he's eating or out or something, but hopefully this will get more than 1 post

Adam, I'd like to see you contributing to the discussion more. I'm heading to bed relatively soon, but when I wake up I hope to see a new post from you.

##Vote Adam4167

I don't necessarily think you're scum or that other people should vote for you, but you've only made one post, and that's simply not good enough.

Hurry up.

As previously stated, I went out drinking. And after I finish this post, I'm going to need at least 6 hours to sleep it off.

I feel that by flinging your vote in every direction, you have cheapened the weight of your vhote when you eventually do decide to settle on a target. I also feel the need to point out again that you have had 5 separate votes in 12 hours, which is almost half of the players participating.

You’ve caught my attention Blazinghand, don’t slip =).

III The BByte Lynch, and everything else before I went after JB
BKEXE begins to show his true colors: He bandwagons both the Adam and BByte vote in a very, very VERY obvious fashion. How did he bandwagon the BByte vote when he didn't actually vote for BByte? Look inside, gentlemen.=.
+ Show Spoiler +

BKEXE does the first interesting thing he does all game:

On December 05 2011 11:17 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey BH what is up with this?

Show nested quote +

You neglected to mention this fact until after EB refused to vote. Are you holding back any other pieces of information?

This is by far the most TOWN thing he's said. He's actively attacking someone and sticking his neck out. It's not very aggressive, since it's phrased in a passive manner "Are you holding back" as opposed to "Why were you holding back" but it's exactly the kind of thing everyone else has been doing and he had not.

The only problem, of course, being that he didn't actually read my quote and/or he was wrong on purpose and just wanted to be seen arguing. The post from which he is quoting refutes his argument on its own. He quickly retreats:

On December 05 2011 11:21 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Oh Sorry I thought they were in two different posts.

On December 05 2011 11:28 BroodKingEXE wrote:
No, I thought BH was only calling him out because he refused to vote. It turns out that EB says that he will tell BH about his evidence to lynch Hassy in the same message that he told him he would vote in the morning. I thought BH had the information beforehand, but did not tell anyone.

The next morning, he makes some arguments to back up his attack on Adam.

On December 06 2011 06:14 BroodKingEXE wrote:
This will have to be a quick post, rehersal is starting.

Adam:

The only problem I have is that you have not explained why you blamed others when not reading the forum.
The voting information is readily accessable on the fourth post, it is even mentioned explicitly by the host. You comment on his blameless acusations (when in fact they were for drawing out lurkers) yet you blame him without thinking about the contexts of the votes. You then in response go to say that the action was misguided, yet you contradict that statement with your comment about alcohol. Your mention of the misguided post is defended by an equally flawed post. You also mention how your post was defensive when in fact you spend most of your post criticizing others as well as well as commenting on xsksc's experience. In fact your only defense for Blazinghand's aggressiveness is to not a agree with it and then say that you could not respond because of your drinking.

Show nested quote +

On the other hand I agree with you that there should be not be bandwagoning or voting for spite. No matter how unconstructive the player may have come across, they should not be voted out for bad form. They should be voted out for posts that are error prone or reveal something about the identity of the mafia. I feel like as a newbie game there should be plenty of mistakes (I have made some too).

And about bandwagoning it is a terrible idea to not vote who you think is the most likely mafia. We must trust our own judgment when it comes down to it, because we do not know who could be leading the group a mafia or townie.

Let's bear in mind closely what BKEXE did: He posted an early vote on Adam, and was very noncommittal and dodgy UNTIL the train was going. Adam had many votes on him when BKEXE finally decided to go after him. This attack DOES NOT stick BKEXE's neck out, and is in fact a response to the wagon rolling.

Traditionally, one states a reason to vote for someone, waits until people are in agreement, then votes (maybe without that middle step). BKEXE did this in reverse, voting, waiting until there was a wagon, and only when he felt safe doing so, trying to "contribute".

After the lynch:

On December 07 2011 04:25 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Hey guys,

The concert went great, but I am still worried about what BH said earlier.
I have some information, but I feel that if I post it the mob might get a lot more information.

I feel like it is important that we be careful what we say, because the mob needs to figure out who knows who the mafia members are.

This is a reasonable statement, except by this point EB and I had already had our discussion, and decided that it's better to talk during the night. BKEXE's statement here is a dumb and blatant attempt to excuse himself into lurking for another 24 hours. If he posted some additional reasoning, then it would be fine. If he noted that I had changed my position and he and I were in disagreement, that would be fine. But no, he notes none of these things. He's dodging as hard as he can, and nothing's even coming at him.

I call him out for this immediately, and he responds by posting.

On December 07 2011 04:36 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I wrote this during the dinner break of my rehersal, so unfortunately I was not able to comment on BByte. Despite BByte's elimination I did view him as scum as well as others. It is unfortunate that he got as few posts as he did in. I feel that not everyone contributed to the BByte discussion that voted for him, we need to act as a town and each put in an opinion on our vote. You can check out my comment on him, I wish I had got it out earlier

Mafia: red
Neutral: normal
Towns: bold

ey215 - I really have a no reason to put him in either category he has provided some information, but often only when asked. On the other hand he comments on the lurkers and liars prompt, but he never really gives an opinion on the lurking. When commented on the no comment he gets angry saying that he is being attacked for his non support of LaL although his opinion was in the middle really supporting either side. I feel his feud with BH is instead based in the fact that he is the voice of moderation in most of our posts and he is bound to get some push back as moderation would cramp BH's style.
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 04 2011 13:01 ey215 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 04 2011 12:52 xsksc wrote:

On December 04 2011 12:35 xtfftc wrote:

Hi all!

Lynch all Liars is rough, sometimes you need to use your head and be able to tell the difference between a lie and a misunderstanding or misstatement. In games where people are posting a lot it's very easy for people to misspeak not realizing what exactly they've said in the past. I would think some common sense would help here. If it's an outright lie, by all means lynch away. If it's a misstatement and we've got a better case on someone it's better to let it slide.

On the lurker bit, I do think there's a time and place for lynching. If we don't have a case on someone it's better to lynch a lurker than someone active. If they're lurking then they're not contributing or giving us something to go on. Of course, if we've got a good case on someone it's better to lynch them.

Looking forward to this.

BByte - I put him hear because he has a high scum read. He comments on how Velinath has a lot of null reads when he himself has only five reads three of which are basically unsupported.

BH - He is either a townie or has th biggest poker face in the game. I feel that his attacks might be showing the true side of people.

EB - I feel that there is a lot of bad air around EB and that his bad choice of words against BH has put him in the worst position of the game. Looking at his latest posts they seem for the most part reasonable, his break down of xsksc was pretty telling showing that he can break people down and that xsksc is being careless with his posts.
I think this deserves him the neutral position as the votes for him could very well be for out of a claim that was purely emotional.

Grackoroni - I do not know what to think about him, while he does have a lots of small posts I feel each one is strong in the message it tries to send. He has been trying to dig into lurkers and has put in some of his reads. It seems that unlike others he is playing very objectively. I have no idea what this means in mafia though. I would appreciate thoughts on grack the most.

Hassy - First came across to me as scum because he seemed to overreact to BH's votes in the early game, but I like his defense that he used behind his vote for myself. I feel like even though he at first used Velinath's point to defend his vote, his second reason made sense. He has every right to be suspectful of me, but I feel he needs to contribute to the forum more. His tone suggests more of a townie tone though.

Velinath - I can say he is town or mafia for the sole reason of the amount of posts he has put up. He unlike some of my other reads is very post heavy, yet they are all in response to another users post. If you do not believe me look at his filter they almost all involve the posts of another user. While this is useful for anylitics of others I can not actually get a good read on Velinath from them.

xsksc - he has been a very odd character. I am not sure why but he blew up after EB's probing of one of his careless posts (not that all of them are). He likes to use his initial post to prove his township, but after the post he did not do much to lead the discussion. Any discussion I have been part of has always had input from the prompter, it is important for them to get idea of the prompt and why they support it.

Xtfftc - I think that he has provided good information, but has also been very active in previous mafia games. I feel his strong responses will make him a tough read and encourage others to help me figure out who he is.

I fundamentally disagree with bandwagons as

I'm gonna break this down for you right now so you know what he just did:

He bandwagons the BByte vote, even though BByte is dead, and he admits this in his post.

That's right, he specifically adds in an argument as to why BByte, the only confirmed townie, is scum. Why does he do this? Because he wants to be on every bandwagon possible, because he wants to blend in as much as possible. He claims "oh I had this written before but didn't post it" so that he appears honest about his intention to be like everyone else and lynch BByte. Hell, he even says he wished everyone could have seen him go against BByte.

He missed the bandwagon, and he wished he was on it. SO MUCH. This truly amazes me. Adding the BByte analysis? MEANINGLESS. BBYTE IS DEAD. This is exactly BKEXE's scummy playstyle.

Wagoney.

passive.

lurking.

Scum.

IV. The JB Lynch
It becomes unbelievably, painfully obvious that BKEXE is scumbuddies with JB. My god. So obvious.
+ Show Spoiler +

BKEXE tries to hedge and defend jay at the same time, revealing his true colors. repeatedly.

On December 07 2011 14:50 BroodKingEXE wrote:
jay - to me jay is another one of those people who is being printed as scum based on the fact that he is opposed to BH in some aspect. I feel that he has provided some solid leads, but has to respond to the attacks by other more often then not. I feel like until he can get a few more unprovoked responses in until I can decide.

Turneg- he strikes me as more of a townie. I feel that in the early game he differed in his style vs BH. He instead of using more aggressive response posts, he looked at early posts and methodically made questions out of those. I feel like this is definitely more of a townie behavior. Early in the game he chose to start examining players right away, I feel that a mafia member would not have been able to think so quickly to implement a strategy as hard as this. These same questions have also put him in a bad spot as he is viewed as passively accusing, a behavior I feel is a bit scummy.

A reasonable defense of JB, except that JB and I haven't disagreed on anything besides whether or not he is scum. BKEXE posts a lie, a red herring, and when I ask him to link me to where we disagree?

On December 07 2011 15:07 Blazinghand wrote:

Show nested quote +

I was unaware that JB and I were in disagreement about something before i fingered him as scum. Quote plz

I get totally ignored. BKEXE presses on and changes the topic to some BS, completely useless BS about EB.

+ Show Spoiler [Useless BKEXE Quote] +

On December 08 2011 00:57 BroodKingEXE wrote:
FUCK!!I just realized that we could have figured out EB was a townie from this post, saving us from lots of trouble.

Show nested quote +

Also he said this quote before saying he was not going to vote.

Show nested quote +

He had already established that he was not going to give details until the morning. BH used this argument against him a little hastily.

Show nested quote +

This quote also can be named as non useful as people get angry if you do not put down a vote.
In all I feel like we need to have more analysis of the people we are getting scum reads on as a town. I will continue to look over EB's posts to figure out why they killed him. At the moment though I have come up with some hypothetical situations.

1) The mafia is dumb and voted for the player that was rated by the town as the worst townie ever.

2)EB had a read or opinion that the mafia did not like (xtfftc, xsksc, Turnkeg, jay, Velinath) the problem I think here though is that EB's claims were unsubstantiated in the case of jay a player that we already are looking to lynch. He also mentioned following breadcrumbs were a bad idea, so maybe the mafia wants us to follow breadcrumbs.

3)The mafia is just trying to throw us off with this vote. This is the worst case scenario, it means that the mafia felt safe enough to not take out players that they think the town needs to figure them out. This would mean that the majority of our reads are not strong enough or just plain wrong.

The post is meaningless and is basically him saying "what, blazinghand is asking me for evidence? QUICK LOOK AT THIS SHINEY MARBLE GUYZ"

Finally, about 12 hours into my argument with JB, BKEXE decides to bus JB:

On December 08 2011 01:29 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I am going to agree with BH on the fact that jay is scum. Looking back over his posts I realize that you have half filler and the other half stuff like this:

Show nested quote +

This reversal is bussing. He immediately proceeds to get a fight picked with him by Veli, once again, since Veli calls him out for the worthless EB misdirection. I really gotta give credit to Veli here-- Veli saved me a lot of trouble by calling BKEXE out all the time.

On December 08 2011 02:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:
Velinath,

It does matter that we all suspected EB. Firstly a person acts differently depending on if the are on the offensive, defensive, and neutral. I agree with grack that EB could make a good argument, that is why I was reluctant to put my read up. In my read I explicitly pointed out that EB broke down xsksc. He showed how xsksc's personality could change at the slightest pushback, making me think he is scum. He did it without losing his cool himself showing that he was a very formidable player, and one the mafia would not want to mess with.

The mafia probaly saw this as a threat and that combined with the spite everyone was showing EB made him an easy target. If the majority of people did not like EB would they really feel like his death was a real loss? Definitely not, I feel like the lack of posts about EB proves that. Since everyone felt like EB was going to be an unproductive townie they thought the act was seemingly random, so no one has had the insight to really dig into his death.

Defending his worthless tripe with more worthless tripe.

On December 08 2011 03:17 BroodKingEXE wrote:
BH,

I still feel that from now on we do need to include a reason why EB got killed along with our scum posts. I feel like it still has to make sense that the person we chose to lynch tonight had something to gain from EB's death. From your experience do you feel that the mafia had no motive (besides the fact that he was an easy kill?)

Trying to get everyone else to post more worthless tripe.

At this point, I summarize my argument against JB in a clean, concise post. BKEXE LITERALLY TIES TO SMOKESCREEN IT OUT BY POSTING HUNDREDS OF LINES OF TEXT. HE USES BROKEN QUOTE TAGS TO DO THIS. He triple posts, and makes sure to a) push me off the front page and b) make it so nobody ever find my argument. Luckily for me, I am shameless and simply repost it. But this is like, the most obvious possible defense of JB ._.

I end up getting the mods to "let" him delete his two retarded posts so that stuff is legible.

On December 08 2011 11:54 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I got permission to edit the post.

On December 08 2011 12:11 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I got permission to delete the bad posts.

BKEXE's huge text wall: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&currentpage=39#763

All broken quote tags, all illegible, nothing you can pin him on.

His excuse for this enormous spam?

Wait for it...

WAIT FOR IT..........

On December 08 2011 13:50 BroodKingEXE wrote:
What is a preview button?

I think Sinani has this one covered for me.

On December 08 2011 13:56 sinani206 wrote:

Show nested quote +

BKEXE's final defense as to why he's clean?

On December 09 2011 09:45 BroodKingEXE wrote:
For anyone who thinks I am mafia, because jay is. Think about it, if I kill off jay I would only have one other teamate left, if you think I am mafia for this reason I would be killed as well. This leaves one mafia member to convince everyone else that they are not mafia. The mafia that you are suspecting me to be in would have to have a player so experienced he could take out 6 other players over the course of three days. How does this make sense?

Ah yes, WIFOM. Classy, BKEXE, classy. But we all know what you are.

In summary: it doesn't matter whether or not I live through this night, because I believe I have delivered you the second mafia player. BKEXE would have to be literally the worst town player in existence behind JB to not be mafia. If I'm alive at dawn, I will continue to go after BKEXE unless someone posts a case that convinces me otherwise. BKEXE better be around to respond to these allegations.

MJY: Just because Veli attacked bad posts a lot doesn't necessarily make him town. Keep your eye on him as always, guys.

P.S.: He just posted a case against EY215 now, and it may have some merit, but I just noticed that his first three quotes of EY215 are not in chronological order.

Just saying.

P.P.S: Please win this game, town. Post a lot. Make it hard for people to lurk, Put pressure on Layabout/Starshard/xsksc to stop lurking, also... especially if he's the 3rd gangster.

Thank you for everything, gentlemen.

Forumite

Sweden3280 Posts

December 10 2011 01:04 GMT

#934

Nightpost coming up

Grackaroni

United States9846 Posts

December 10 2011 01:17 GMT

#935

THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME! :p

Forumite

Sweden3280 Posts

December 10 2011 01:19 GMT

#936

- Day 3 -

[image loading]

Adam was the first to arrive to the empty classroom, so he sat for a while, thinking about the exercise. This was proving to be trickier than expected. This morning he had been in danger of missing class, but thankfully one of the other students had been gracious enough to tell him where the class had moved too. It was a bit eerie though, how noone else had arrived, not even the teacher, and the class should have started 3 minutes ago.

In another classroom, the remaining students had allready started, while Zona sat looking at the door, wondering where the last student had gone off too.

Adam4167, the Vanilla Town was lured astray.

Day 3 ends in 48 hours, at 01:00 GMT (+00:00), or 10:00 KST the 12th of December

Blazinghand

United States25550 Posts

December 10 2011 01:21 GMT

#937

SWEET I LIVED.

P.S.: I was roleblocked last night.

Velinath

United States694 Posts

December 10 2011 01:25 GMT

#938

Whoo, BH survived. Anyway, here's a little bit of thought.

BKEXE's case on ey215 is hella contrived. Two other people have already pointed this out, but he's cherry picking his quotes and putting them out of order to try and construct points - something that he was accusing me of doing before. Given my case earlier combined with the more recent stuff posted since then:
##Vote: BroodKingEXE

I had a chance to do some filtering over the night. I've got a very strong town read on ey215 after his more recent posts especially, but I'm still not sure what to make of xkskreplacementfest. Once layabout starts posting a bit more, I'll be interested to see how that shapes up.

I'm doing a quiz for one of my classses but I'll be posting some analysis on Bluelightz's posts after he took over from Hassybaby soon.