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On December 11 2012 01:35 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:32 Klipsys wrote:This guy isn't Malcolm X or Che Guevara. He wasn't a revolutionary or a genius political thinker. He wasn't a conflicted man who is misunderstood, or a victim of circumstances. He was a bitter hateful old douche who liked science. Joseph Mengele liked science too, and his studies brought us a lot of medical information, should we overlook the fact he murdered and experimented on people? On December 11 2012 01:31 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Destro wrote:
"no everyone is perfect" ...please...
you cannot downplay a homophobic, racist, and sexist just because he was old. he used a well earned public platform to spew his utter bullshit that is cancerous to society/humanity. if you don't want to hear people condemn someone for being those things, then dont start a thread about a person who was openly guilty about all of them.
Haha canceruous to society. With words like that you'd think he raped babies for a living or something instead of just having different values than you Different values =/= Misogyny and Homophobia. You think Che Guevara was a good person?
Absolutely.
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
— Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life
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On December 11 2012 01:47 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:35 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:32 Klipsys wrote:This guy isn't Malcolm X or Che Guevara. He wasn't a revolutionary or a genius political thinker. He wasn't a conflicted man who is misunderstood, or a victim of circumstances. He was a bitter hateful old douche who liked science. Joseph Mengele liked science too, and his studies brought us a lot of medical information, should we overlook the fact he murdered and experimented on people? On December 11 2012 01:31 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Destro wrote:
"no everyone is perfect" ...please...
you cannot downplay a homophobic, racist, and sexist just because he was old. he used a well earned public platform to spew his utter bullshit that is cancerous to society/humanity. if you don't want to hear people condemn someone for being those things, then dont start a thread about a person who was openly guilty about all of them.
Haha canceruous to society. With words like that you'd think he raped babies for a living or something instead of just having different values than you Different values =/= Misogyny and Homophobia. You think Che Guevara was a good person? Absolutely. "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
If you quote something please leave a source for the quote
"Dont believe all thats on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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On December 11 2012 01:39 Sated wrote:
I don't mind Moore having different views to my own since he pursued those views through the same legal, non-violent political channels as everyone else. Comparing Moore to people like Mengele is ridiculous...
I mostly remember this guy from GamesMaster, to be honest. Important part of my childhood. Rest in peace.
Once again: different views =/= misogyny and homophobia. Those aren't view points, they're simply terrible ideologies that serve no purpose other than to propagate hate and instigate violence against other people.
Comparing the crimes of Mengele to Moore is absolutely ridiculous, which is why I didn't do that. I asked the question: Given all of the scientific information we gained because of Mengele's work, should we overlook his actions? Most sane people would say no, and to a lesser extent the same is true for Moore. He is a human and he is allowed his own beliefs, but when he uses his position and power to influence public opinion and try and lower the value and humanity of others, he is no better than the Nazi's. For every child he inspired to study astronomy, how many did he convince gays and women were sub-human?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On December 11 2012 01:06 deth2munkies wrote:
Let me ask you 2 questions:
1) What negative impact did his sexist/homophobic views have on the culture of the UK at large?
2) What positive impact did his shows have on the culture of the UK at large?
Answering those questions shows why people like the guy. Condemning a person for political views that had no impact on the actual state of the culture after he's dead is fucking pointless and shameful.
Well said, sums up my entire opinion on the matter.
RIP Patrick Moore
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On December 11 2012 01:52 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:47 Klipsys wrote:On December 11 2012 01:35 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:32 Klipsys wrote:This guy isn't Malcolm X or Che Guevara. He wasn't a revolutionary or a genius political thinker. He wasn't a conflicted man who is misunderstood, or a victim of circumstances. He was a bitter hateful old douche who liked science. Joseph Mengele liked science too, and his studies brought us a lot of medical information, should we overlook the fact he murdered and experimented on people? On December 11 2012 01:31 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Destro wrote:
"no everyone is perfect" ...please...
you cannot downplay a homophobic, racist, and sexist just because he was old. he used a well earned public platform to spew his utter bullshit that is cancerous to society/humanity. if you don't want to hear people condemn someone for being those things, then dont start a thread about a person who was openly guilty about all of them.
Haha canceruous to society. With words like that you'd think he raped babies for a living or something instead of just having different values than you Different values =/= Misogyny and Homophobia. You think Che Guevara was a good person? Absolutely. "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere." If you quote something please leave a source for the quote "Dont believe all thats on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
— Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On December 11 2012 01:06 deth2munkies wrote:
Let me ask you 2 questions:
1) What negative impact did his sexist/homophobic views have on the culture of the UK at large?
2) What positive impact did his shows have on the culture of the UK at large?
Answering those questions shows why people like the guy. Condemning a person for political views that had no impact on the actual state of the culture after he's dead is fucking pointless and shameful.
I think this is probably the most important thing. Sure he had some archaic political views that kind of make a dick, but the good he did vastly outweighs the harm his political views did.
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People seem to think this guy is being hunted down and insulted. The fact is that this is a thread attempting to celebrate a guy. Many people feel there is little to celebrate about a homophobic racist, despite their scientific achievements. They are not trying to say that he had no value to astronomy, rather they are saying that it is wrong to only look at the good and ignore the bad. The man did more than one thing in his life and I don't think there is anything wrong with scrutinizing the many values he held. Just because he was old or lived through a war does not erase the fact that he held views that are looked down upon in today's society. I could theoretically go find a white supremacist from the southern US and you could say "oh, well they're from the deep south, there are lots of racists there." Though this may be an explanation to you, it does not make it suddenly acceptable to be racist. Obviously he was not some horrible rapist or murderer, and he held many admirable political views, but the fact remains that he was far from perfect, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out.
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On December 11 2012 01:53 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:39 Sated wrote:
I don't mind Moore having different views to my own since he pursued those views through the same legal, non-violent political channels as everyone else. Comparing Moore to people like Mengele is ridiculous...
I mostly remember this guy from GamesMaster, to be honest. Important part of my childhood. Rest in peace. Once again: different views =/= misogyny and homophobia. Those aren't view points, they're simply terrible ideologies that serve no purpose other than to propagate hate and instigate violence against other people. Comparing the crimes of Mengele to Moore is absolutely ridiculous, which is why I didn't do that. I asked the question: Given all of the scientific information we gained because of Mengele's work, should we overlook his actions? Most sane people would say no, and to a lesser extent the same is true for Moore. He is a human and he is allowed his own beliefs, but when he uses his position and power to influence public opinion and try and lower the value and humanity of others, he is no better than the Nazi's. For every child he inspired to study astronomy, how many did he convince gays and women were sub-human?
Actually intolerance was more akin to the ideology of the Nazi's. Somethong you seem well versed in. He didn't hate women, that is a misogynist. By your rationale most muslim countries are all misogynistic. He simply answered questions on his beliefs when asked, he didn't "use his position and power to influence public opinion and try and lower the value and humanity of others". I am done with this guy and thread.
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On December 11 2012 01:06 deth2munkies wrote:
Let me ask you 2 questions:
1) What negative impact did his sexist/homophobic views have on the culture of the UK at large?
2) What positive impact did his shows have on the culture of the UK at large?
Answering those questions shows why people like the guy. Condemning a person for political views that had no impact on the actual state of the culture after he's dead is fucking pointless and shameful.
But that assumes that people should only value a person based on how popular what they did was, or scale back their distaste for the person based on how unknown his controversial personal views were.
If you're remembering the person, its because you like what he personally did and his personal beliefs, not how popular or influential those points of view have become over time. The only exception is if he preached his views, and willingly tried to convert people to his view that homosexuals were evil or women were less than men.
Certainly it can be seen as a good thing that his hatred for gays (I still think homophobia, implying fear of gays, is the incorrect term to use regardless of what wikipedia says), and sexist views weren't as influential as his scientific views were, but I don't think celebrating a person's life is about how popular/unknown his views became after the fact.
The only thing that matters in that regard, is that one came to know the person because of their popularity/infamy, but how you perceive those views that led to his/her popularity/infamy is a different matter entirely.
And in conclusion, I suppose some people find that his personal views were a lot more unattractive than his scientific aspect was attractive, so overall he's not someone to celebrate.
---------------
Personally...I think back then homophobia and sexism were more common. I still think its wrong, but its more understandable. In certain time periods, its very hard not to be something that we perceive today as being negative. So I will give him a little slack there.
Still I don't think I would celebrate him as a person, even if it is more understandable. I will simply say, I am happy he inspired people in the sciences, rather than try to weigh his views and characteristics to see whether I like him overall or not.
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I only knew of him through the xylophone video, but why anyone feels the need to defend a bigot against public pinion is beyond me. Sure, maybe some of you appreciate his contributions to astronomy, but that doesn't preclude others from judging him differently. In other words, if the fact that some might not lament the death of a bigot surprises you, be angry at the sun for rising.
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On December 11 2012 01:47 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 01:35 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:32 Klipsys wrote:This guy isn't Malcolm X or Che Guevara. He wasn't a revolutionary or a genius political thinker. He wasn't a conflicted man who is misunderstood, or a victim of circumstances. He was a bitter hateful old douche who liked science. Joseph Mengele liked science too, and his studies brought us a lot of medical information, should we overlook the fact he murdered and experimented on people? On December 11 2012 01:31 Solarist wrote:On December 11 2012 01:25 Destro wrote:
"no everyone is perfect" ...please...
you cannot downplay a homophobic, racist, and sexist just because he was old. he used a well earned public platform to spew his utter bullshit that is cancerous to society/humanity. if you don't want to hear people condemn someone for being those things, then dont start a thread about a person who was openly guilty about all of them.
Haha canceruous to society. With words like that you'd think he raped babies for a living or something instead of just having different values than you Different values =/= Misogyny and Homophobia. You think Che Guevara was a good person? Absolutely. "I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere." — Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life
i quote stuff because it makes me feel like i'm right
— han solo
User was warned for this post
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His political views don't mean jack, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideologies under the law and despite what you think is wrong or right you absolutely cannot refute how much importance he had in the world of Astronomy. And that importance alone is what we are saying farewell to in this thread.
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RIP.
By the way, you guys are so cool. I hope one day I will be so cool so I can smack-talk a dead guy on an internet forum.
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On December 11 2012 02:52 Schlootle wrote:
His political views don't mean jack, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideologies under the law and despite what you think is wrong or right you absolutely cannot refute how much importance he had in the world of Astronomy. And that importance alone is what we are saying farewell to in this thread.
It is not your place to dictate how others are to go about remembering this man (in fact, via this medium, that job explicitly belongs to the mods). If the fact that others are not so singularly engaged with his astronomy work upsets you then I'm not sure what to tell you other than "welcome to the real world".
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On December 11 2012 02:52 Schlootle wrote:
His political views don't mean jack, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideologies under the law and despite what you think is wrong or right you absolutely cannot refute how much importance he had in the world of Astronomy. And that importance alone is what we are saying farewell to in this thread.
Political views: I think the government should have a bigger say in how companies conduct business.
BS: Homosexuality is wrong.
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United States43977 Posts
On the one hand we normally keep RIP topics to respectful stuff but on the other hand he is clearly a pretty divisive figure. I'm going to lock this. If you want to mourn the death of a popular astronomer then do so privately, likewise if you want to curse the memory of a sexist homophobe then do so privately. If you want to collectively debate whether or not an individuals achievements can be separated from a distasteful personal life then a general topic can be made for that.
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EPT
