EPTedit: forgive my bad english, just woke up
Dota2 moderation - Page 2
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
edit: forgive my bad english, just woke up | ||
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SilverStar
Sweden18511 Posts
The most recent case was moonbear closing down the discussion thread for the latest patch saying that we should use the GD forum when in fact look at this: Closed down post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403198 Previous posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400645 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399584 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398460 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397357 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=394948 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=393740 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=392445 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388254 All the posts were of the SAME format that was closed down by moonbear. I mean I guess I am more active than most mods here but even if you don't visit the forums that often you SHOULD KNOW that we had these patch threads since. If you decide to close down a thread purely on your own opinion that it belongs to a different section when it is being handled in a different way since MONTHS! is just infuriating. I love to contribute to the forums but then I would like that people who moderate are part of it. Moonbear deciding what is appropriate based on her / his experience from other forums is not okay. If you judge over a community be part of it. A different case which was also really disappointing was the behaviour of motbob. As he states here, he was not willing to put the tournament ticket in the OP because of his position as a mod: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401209#8 But look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402711 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403070 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395995 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396335 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385840 All of them had the ticket linked in the op in the past. So what should I take away from this? People have to create discussion threads before a mod does to be able to include tickets? Both cases were mods that were barely active in the dota forums deciding what THEY think is right not what kind of understanding has grown in the community and which has been handled that way in the past. I have been contributing a lot to the TL community because I like to see it grow. Dealing with moderators that don't contribute and then come in after a few months to change what has been built to their understanding just makes me angry and sad. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7596 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:58 Numy wrote: The forums do tend to regress into some kind of pseudo irc channel at times which limits any kind of meaningful discussion to be had. I don't know if this is the case of lack of manpower or just differing views on what needs to be moderated. Oh also on the topic of the IRC channel, if it is an official channel that is representing teamliquid, could we get some real admins representing team liquid to handle the moderation? It is weird promoting the channel on top of the GD thread while all the admins are still in the old channel #tlnet-dota | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On March 18 2013 05:22 NB wrote: Oh also on the topic of the IRC channel, if it is an official channel that is representing teamliquid, could we get some real admins representing team liquid to handle the moderation? It is weird promoting the channel on top of the GD thread while all the admins are still in the old channel #tlnet-dota I hang out on tl.dota2 if someone wants to throw an OP my way. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34507 Posts
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 17 2013 22:45 SilverStar wrote: Both cases were mods that were barely active in the dota forums deciding what THEY think is right not what kind of understanding has grown in the community and which has been handled that way in the past. I have been contributing a lot to the TL community because I like to see it grow. Dealing with moderators that don't contribute and then come in after a few months to change what has been built to their understanding just makes me angry and sad. Replying to this post has been an excellent test of my anger management skills. I guess I am sort of confused. You mention that you want to see the TL community grow, and tin wanting to see that goal realized you have contributed a lot in the past. You take it a step further, though. To say that Moonbear and I have "not contributed" is a slap in the face. Let's make this clear: You cannot hold a candle to Moonbear's contributions to TL moba coverage in general and Dota 2 coverage in particular. You said that Moonbear's closing of the patch discussion thread was "infuriating." Why? Because discussion of a patch was shifted from one thread to another? Is that really a reason to get so mad? And not putting a ticket in the OP. Is that something to get "angry and sad" over? If so, why? Because I am failing to grow esports? Because I am not doing what everyone else in the Dota 2 forum does? Because I am doing tournament organizers' job for them and failing to put a link in to give them money at the same time? The failure to put a link to the ticket in the thread has drawn what seems to me to be a massive overreaction. I am accountable to you regarding my jobs as a staff member on TL. If I write a crass article, or if I make an unjust ban, I expect there to be a thread in Website Feedback thread bashing me for those actions. But in the interest of not going insane, I think it would be nice if my actions as a normal user just making a thread were not subject to complaints in Website Feedback. | ||
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ControlMonkey
Australia3109 Posts
Seems like not that big of a deal to me. Moonbear made a mistake, and it was quickly rectified. | ||
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SilverStar
Sweden18511 Posts
On March 18 2013 13:53 motbob wrote: I am accountable to you regarding my jobs as a staff member on TL. If I write a crass article, or if I make an unjust ban, I expect there to be a thread in Website Feedback thread bashing me for those actions. But in the interest of not going insane, I think it would be nice if my actions as a normal user just making a thread were not subject to complaints in Website Feedback. You specifically said you would feel uneasy putting the ticket in the op because you ARE NOT an normal user. Read what you wrote for yourself: On March 11 2013 10:52 motbob wrote: Being a staff member makes stuff like this very strange. I asked you to put the ticket in the op because it is the norm for the tournament forum and then you go on to say that you are in a difficult position as a mod and now you get upset because you want to be a normal user? Pick one. Also I'm not getting angry about the fact that you didn't put the ticket in the OP but the fact that moonbear and you seem to pick and chose when it comes to your position in the dota forums. I'm reguarly posting in the hope that the TL dota forums grow and then we have mods like you that come in once a while and expect that things now run to their liking. What is the point of my contribution if you just say "whatever I am mod lol". Also don't give me that "my anger management skills". You are a mod and I will critize your actions if I don't like them. If it is too much to ask maybe being a mod is the wrong thing for you. Moonbear closing the thread just showed how little he visits the dota forums. Yes it was corrected but not a mistake that should have been made in the first place if moonbear would be actually visiting the dota forums besided swinging the banhammer as he likes without actually contributing to the dota forum. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On March 18 2013 13:53 motbob wrote: Replying to this post has been an excellent test of my anger management skills. I guess I am sort of confused. You mention that you want to see the TL community grow, and tin wanting to see that goal realized you have contributed a lot in the past. You take it a step further, though. To say that Moonbear and I have "not contributed" is a slap in the face. Let's make this clear: You cannot hold a candle to Moonbear's contributions to TL moba coverage in general and Dota 2 coverage in particular. You said that Moonbear's closing of the patch discussion thread was "infuriating." Why? Because discussion of a patch was shifted from one thread to another? Is that really a reason to get so mad? And not putting a ticket in the OP. Is that something to get "angry and sad" over? If so, why? Because I am failing to grow esports? Because I am not doing what everyone else in the Dota 2 forum does? Because I am doing tournament organizers' job for them and failing to put a link in to give them money at the same time? The failure to put a link to the ticket in the thread has drawn what seems to me to be a massive overreaction. I am accountable to you regarding my jobs as a staff member on TL. If I write a crass article, or if I make an unjust ban, I expect there to be a thread in Website Feedback thread bashing me for those actions. But in the interest of not going insane, I think it would be nice if my actions as a normal user just making a thread were not subject to complaints in Website Feedback. Okay I have to put in my opinion here. What has your anger management skills got to do with criticism put up? I mean he did raise mistakes that moonbear did, that wouldn't have happened if there was a knowledgeable DOTA2 mod. If your angry that he said you wouldn't put in a ticket because it would represent TL endorsement, and you dont want that on your head...that is a contradiction on its own already as he's said :- You made that thread as a normal user as you've claimed, yet you also made in the view of a staff member who didnt want to represent TL in promoting ticket sales so you didnt include the ticket sale link, which was the norm in all the previous threads.Perhaps a true standard/formal format should be created...btw i support ticket sale link. However if your angry that you thought he belittled you & moonbear contribution to TL, i have no comments on that. That i feel is a personal issue....i would like to point out that your anger however, due to you being a staff member is looked on more seriously than a regular user, perhaps you shouldn't start off your reply that way  I do understand what he says about feeling the mods just drop in out of the blue, who didn't seem to be active in DOTA2 at all, stepping in and trying to exert control over the entire DOTA2 forums because they can. It just doesn't seem fair after GD's been fine so far. Hell i think it's safe to say we respect the red color rather than the person because those people didn't appear active at all in DOTA 2 anyway. When im in the Service, we have a saying. "Respect the person, not the rank"...it's pretty hard to do so when the mods currently appearing to be stepping in aren't that active in DOTA2 forums anyway. On the topic of DOTA2 moderation, the GD thread has a life of it's own and is pretty hard to moderate i agree. The posting there should be tightened up a bit, but not to the strict standards in the SC2 forums. Hell the only reason im posting that much compared to when i first registered is because i felt more free to express my thoughts & opinions in the GD thread rather than anywhere else in TL. To be honest i have my issues with the moderation in TL, but i respect it despite me getting unfair bans(imo) twice so far. It keeps the true trolls away from TL thus i have to accept it. Both times when i got banned, i truly didnt understand why it had to go so far rather than a warning for example, but i was told "a 2day ban is viewed the same as a warning" which i must disagree. a ban isn't the same as a warning. Because of this, i truly feel there should be a new mod/banling from the DOTA2 community to keep it clean rather than have the existing crew to do it. They wouldn't know how to judge what's okay and what's not okay because they rather err on the side of caution and use the ban hammer. My rather large 2 cents | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34507 Posts
While I agree with you that the dota section needs a mod that is active in it, I completely disagree with calling out motbob and moonbear. Neither of them have done anything akin to the claims you make. Moonbear has done nothing except close one thread (which he then allowed us to remake after a quick PM) and warn us to shape up in the GD thread. There were no banhammers dropped or anything, which actually surprises me a little considering how much of a shithole the GD thread can be sometimes. In summary, we need a new mod, but no need to crucify the current ones for trying to do their job and making one or two unimportant mistakes. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On March 18 2013 18:33 SilverStar wrote: You specifically said you would feel uneasy putting the ticket in the op because you ARE NOT an normal user. Read what you wrote for yourself: I asked you to put the ticket in the op because it is the norm for the tournament forum and then you go on to say that you are in a difficult position as a mod and now you get upset because you want to be a normal user? Pick one. Also I'm not getting angry about the fact that you didn't put the ticket in the OP but the fact that moonbear and you seem to pick and chose when it comes to your position in the dota forums. I'm reguarly posting in the hope that the TL dota forums grow and then we have mods like you that come in once a while and expect that things now run to their liking. What is the point of my contribution if you just say "whatever I am mod lol". Also don't give me that "my anger management skills". You are a mod and I will critize your actions if I don't like them. If it is too much to ask maybe being a mod is the wrong thing for you. Moonbear closing the thread just showed how little he visits the dota forums. Yes it was corrected but not a mistake that should have been made in the first place if moonbear would be actually visiting the dota forums besided swinging the banhammer as he likes without actually contributing to the dota forum. You know, there are ways to get that message across being less abrasive. We already deal with a ton of abuse from the people we ban, it would be nice if in the course of having rational dialogue between people we could try to be kind to each other and realize that at the end everyone in this thread wants to make the dota2 forums a better place. As a general sentiment, the moderation team right now seems to think that our moderation of the DotA2 forums is sufficient (except with regards to DotA2 strat, where something is in the works) If you want to demonstrate the contrary, you are going to have to bring tangible evidence to the table. In regards to your rage about Moonbear closing the patch thread. Moderation is run by volunteers. Human volunteers. Humans by definition make mistakes. The key is that we address and resolve these mistakes, if you expect moderation to be flawless, you should invest in designing robots, because as long as the staff is human, I guarantee you we will continue to err. We learn from our mistakes, but let me assure you that if you got a DotA2 specific banling, he too would screw up. As far as people "just swinging the hammer without contributing", you seem to neglect to realize that moderation *is* contribution. If every mod just stuck to the sections they know well, I can assure you these forums would be overrun with trolls and idiots. If instead of getting angry and demanding that they "don't stick their nose where it doesn't belong" you explained to them the error of their ways so that they could learn and better contribute their talents at moderation toward making the forum better, you'd get better reception, you'd also get a cleaner forum. Your issue with motbob comes from one of the unique challenges we face being volunteer staff, that is we are both users, with our own opinions and viewpoints, and staff, with certain obligations. As a TL user, you should be able to see the distinction, but to outsiders, like tournament organizers, they *only* see us as staff, which put motbob in the position he found himself in, where he couldn't do something he would like to as an user because it would reflect badly on staff. The thing is, as an user, he's not required to include that information either, so his decision seems fine, even if its against the "standard", especially since we wouldn't make a regular user who didn't want to include it include it, or keep him from doing it again. I think what you need to do is refocus the way you are looking at this, instead of thinking "these ununderstanding mods on a power high who want to dictate how things go! I hate them!" you should look at it as "wow, these guys with special staff powers want to be involved with the dota community and contribute using those powers. I should help them learn how we do things around here so we can build a better community together!" I read the dota forums all the time. I occasionally take actions there too, and its not because I get some crazy power high, or because I like seeing red text, its because, like motbob and moonbear, I enjoy DotA, and want to contribute to the DotA community. I'm not an excellent writer, I can't do fancy graphics or compose guides, what I can do is ban people and close threads, and so I try to help. Part of the reason I don't moderate more in the dota forum is because of reactions like this. Hopefully this gives you a better perspective into our side of things. We are human, we'll screw up, but if people like you are willing to help us rather than berate us, we can make the dota2 forums a better place. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
Just like people have discussed so far, it is no big deal and it really shouldn't get too personal in this. Maybe we should set up some 'ground rules' on opening thread for patch note etc. GD has always been a mess but i thought that it is good to be that way, i'd rather we keep all the gossiping/trolling/trash in one place so GD serves its purpose. And I guess people didnt realize that many mods do play alot of dota and they read our threads/posts quite often, they just don't post that much. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
I would prefer someone that actually likes visiting the dota forums rather than someone who does it for duty. As for why, I would point to the GD thread(obviously because it contains the majority of posts in the dota general forum). I have read up a large part of that thread mainly to get all the insider jokes there are. The thread has turned into a cesspool on several occasions and the lack of warnings, bans or mod intervention post heavily points towards that nobody noticed. Right now it feel like the dota 2 forums are run on majority rule, which in my opinion isn't a strictly bad thing. But it isn't a good thing either, because places run like that tend to have a bad reputation. Mainly because harsh language is the only weapon we can employ after reasoning failed to work. | ||
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beef42
Denmark1037 Posts
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
On March 19 2013 00:57 beef42 wrote: I can't stay silent here. As a lurker the GD thread is the worst thing you could do the the subforum. I don't want to go through ten pages of 5000 post users saying "lmao u got rekt last game" to each other before finding actual discussion. I have nothing against veterans and their in-jokes and memes. This is just my selfish lurker desire to have discussion neatly categorized. Do u even visit the thread? I mean mostly what happens in GD is someone say what do you think about carry gyro. We go on about 5 pages about the awsomeness of flak cannon. Then someone asks what to max first on veno, we rabble on the role of veno in the game. Then we can have clusterfucks where people try to proove ridiculous strategy, PA farming faster than AM with fully warded jungle. I love GD, and i love the mods, don't forget that for every criticism there is a legion of silent admiration for mod work. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 18 2013 18:33 SilverStar wrote: Also don't give me that "my anger management skills". You are a mod and I will critize your actions if I don't like them. If it is too much to ask maybe being a mod is the wrong thing for you. "You are a mod and therefore I can criticize you without restriction" is not an applicable philosophy here. The action you are criticizing must be directly related to my function as TL staff: if I am breaking posting rules, it is fair for you to criticize me for setting a bad example for others on TL to follow. It can be argued that my failure to post a ticket link in my OP was "directly related" to my staff position because of the way I justified not including it. However, in the absence of that justification, criticism of that action would not be appropriate for Website Feedback. Not all actions by TL staff are. | ||
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