EPTI have no idea what the fuck he said.
He simply said the same thing for 8minutes...
And Islamist, please don't turn this into a 'omg you Westerners' are attacking our religion you are all evil; the same goes for other people.
UN, Women Rights, Flogging, & Female Circumcision - Page 2
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Take the discussions of the merits of religion to PMs - KwarK | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
I have no idea what the fuck he said. He simply said the same thing for 8minutes... And Islamist, please don't turn this into a 'omg you Westerners' are attacking our religion you are all evil; the same goes for other people. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1707 Posts
On January 25 2012 18:11 bdair2002 wrote: I am a Muslim and I can assure you woman's has all the rights and there is nothing against woman in Islam, Westerns is trying to fight Islam in every way "and it is clear for everyone" so they are raising such topics. Islam, as every other religion has rules, and you have to execute and commit to these rules, some of these rules concerning woman's and the relation between Man and Woman, for example: 1. Nude "we call it Awrah" where is defines the areas in the body for both Men and Woman which is not allowed for other people to see "man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman" a. For man, the Nude "Awrah" is between the stomach to knees, the area between stomach to knees must be hide by cloth, you cannot go out in the street showing your knees or above, or your stomach and under, in your home, you are free to do whatever you want, but in front of people you are not. b. For woman, her Nude "Awrah" includes her entire body but the faces and hands, a woman cannot show her parts to foreign people (foreign are the men which she can marry). Jewish has the same rules and Christians even have the same rules, you can read more about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut and for Christians : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nun It is just the west trying to capitalize these rules (which were found to help humanity) against Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam Well for a start it's not just about, y'know, clothing- although already there we see a pretty huge double standard. A woman must be completely hidden, whereas a man can wear a damn loin-cloth. It's about modernising, and adapting archaic ideas which are based on nothing (such as treating women third class citizens), and not living somewhere inbetween the modern era and the dark ages of stoning, flogging and all this throwback rubbish which some parts of the world cling onto. Is this whole "Westerners are trying to find an excuse to have a go at Islam" thing really the kind of brainwashing that works? Is that what people think of us? Sorry, my GF just walked out of the house, and her enormous robe blew around, allowing a man (who was wearing a tea-cloth around his waist btw so that's fine), to see the back of her leg. Must go and beat her... Gonna tell me I shouldn't? ARE YOU GOING TO OPPRESS ME AND MY ***BELIEFS***?? Heresy, burn the West. | ||
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Vivax
22247 Posts
And no, don't portray me as Islam defender, i'm agnostic, but the fact that you get to "discuss" Islam by starting from two things which might be aswell unrelated to religion (female circumcision is reported since 25 BC o_O) and flogging has always been a common way pf punishment in countries not ruled by our actual human rights based system. The two things have to be abolished, that's for certain. But i don't understand how so many can instantly get down to bashing Islam (cause that's what it is) with just a few cues.Why not make an own Islam thread instead of hiding motives behind some selective news (selective cause it portraits the reaction of people on the maledives, where practice of any other religion than Islam is forbidden, you don't sting into a wasps nest then film the wasps and say: "well, look how angry they are, thus, all wasps are angry".) | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
On January 25 2012 18:53 ymir233 wrote: Christians may have nuns but I don't think they ever had an era where vagina cauterization made a resurgence. Your analogy from clothing to socioeconomic and political discrimination and persecution seems perfectly legit though. I applaud you for seeing the light. vagina cauterization is PURELY cultural and has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion, it is even forbidden "Haram" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haraam) to perform this action, and it is one of the sins which cannot be penetrated (and I don't recall any Islamic or non Islamic country that allows this action in their laws, it is against the nature.) You can please read more about it here http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/438/ "In Africa and the Middle East, it is performed by Muslims, Coptic Christians, members of various indigenous groups, Protestants, and Catholics, to name a few.”[3] One sect of Jews, the Falashas, also circumcise both sexes.[4] " However, relations outside marriage (sex outside marriage, or before marriage is also Haraam in all religions afaik) http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=256 | ||
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Generic SC
New Zealand179 Posts
On January 25 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote: Are you really trying to argue that there is no institutional sexism in Islamic countries and that it was all made up by the west to make Islam look bad? It's okay to claim that it is cultural rather than religious but to deny it entirely is absurd. Additionally, if you study Christianity I think you will find the premise of it centers around almost every "rule" being optional. That was the point of the New Testament. In a completely related note, the cultural impact of Christianity 1.0 as of the release date resulted in greater freedom for Christian women compared to their Jewish counterparts. Because some people never bothered to patch their client to version 1.3.5, a lot of the contextual references were in later centuries use as a tool to restrict the freedoms of women, instead of empowering them. In summary: Culture DOES play more of a part then religion, because culture serves as the lens through which the general population interpret their religion. Thus we can have the same religion practiced differently, because of religion being integrated instead of being isolated for the other sociological factors. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On January 25 2012 16:37 cari-kira wrote: religion doesn't matter, it depends on how developed the society is. woman had really bad times in the western world, too, don't forget this. history didn't start with the wild west. scnr;-) How can you even say this... When did people in the west grow to be so weak willed that they openly started to embrace totalitarian governments and medieval practices as "alternative lifestyles." Religion crushes everything. You are born into sin. When looking at a newborn, religion teaches you that it's the most deformed thing in the world, ready to be thrown into the lake of fire if god had to decide at that instance. Religion hates sex, it hates the human body, it wants to crush both. Female circumcission does the first, the burqa does the second. Religion hates not just freedom of speech, religion even hates freedom of thought. You can be judged to hell for simply thinking the wrong thing. Religion is everything that humanity is not. Religion seeks to eradicate everything that makes us human. Don't stand for these apologists that pretend that women in the west and women in the middle-east are just as wronged. Don't stand for these people that are so dishonest that they would even deny the fate that women suffer in the middle-east. Don't stand for the brainwashed stockholm syndrome women that cry in rapture as they are whipped, beaten and oppressed every day. Oppose these religious and totalitarian ideas and the people that spread them at every turn. We are never going to live hand in hand with these people because they, at their very core, are our direct opposites. One day every person on this earth will be able to read about how we tolerated these obscene acts. If there is an afterlife then that will be our cross to bear for all eternity. | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:08 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: He's from Israel where Muslim women do have "all the rights" (i'm not too sure what he was talking about in the rest of his post which seemed to contradict the first part of the first sentence, but the first paragraph is the one I'm referring to), and along with the guy from Jordan, these aren't countries with institutionalized sexism. A good number of Islamic countries don't have institutionalized sexism. These two guys are speaking from their own experiences. Not everywhere is Saudi Arabia. I know a whole community of Christians from Iraq who didn't face or see any institutional sexism (or considering their Christians, not even religious discrimination) before the Iraq War (obviously things have changed by now). Lebanese are similar. I've come across only a few people from Turkey, but I do know that Turkey has been almost fanatically politically/socially secular for almost a century. I am from Palestine, not Israel, and I've been in Suadi Arabia, Jordan and other countries. | ||
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Generic SC
New Zealand179 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:31 zalz wrote: How can you even say this... When did people in the west grow to be so weak willed that they openly started to embrace totalitarian governments and medieval practices as "alternative lifestyles." Religion crushes everything. You are born into sin. When looking at a newborn, religion teaches you that it's the most deformed thing in the world, ready to be thrown into the lake of fire if god had to decide at that instance. Religion hates sex, it hates the human body, it wants to crush both. Female circumcission does the first, the burqa does the second. Religion hates not just freedom of speech, religion even hates freedom of thought. You can be judged to hell for simply thinking the wrong thing. Religion is everything that humanity is not. Religion seeks to eradicate everything that makes us human. Don't stand for these apologists that pretend that women in the west and women in the middle-east are just as wronged. Don't stand for these people that are so dishonest that they would even deny the fate that women suffer in the middle-east. Don't stand for the brainwashed stockholm syndrome women that cry in rapture as they are whipped, beaten and oppressed every day. Oppose these religious and totalitarian ideas and the people that spread them at every turn. We are never going to live hand in hand with these people because they, at their very core, are our direct opposites. One day every person on this earth will be able to read about how we tolerated these obscene acts. If there is an afterlife then that will be our cross to bear for all eternity. And yet why does Religion embrace the concept of marriage so much if it is so full of hate? You are arguing against a straw man. You could be more specific as religion is a pretty broad term to use. | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
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Generic SC
New Zealand179 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:43 bdair2002 wrote: I honestly see all the people here are arguing with no knowledge, and so much hate against religion in general, religions were found to help humanity not the opposite, you can look at US for Example, take the Gay marriage, I ask you a simple question, have you ever seen a dog having sex with another dog (male to male dog)? it is even against the nature, God created this world and provided us with the rules (religion), Have you ever go to school and you had the right to do what ever you want without punishment? isn't schools have rules and you have to understand and commit to these rules? well Life is more or less like school, you don't have complete freedom to do what ever you want (I bet everyone will agree if I say complete freedom is bad) Actually homosexuality does happen in nature... I have heard many examples of it. Doubtless many other posters will derail your entire argument with counter examples. Nice try anyway. *Pats on back* | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:38 Generic SC wrote: And yet why does Religion embrace the concept of marriage so much if it is so full of hate? You are arguing against a straw man. You could be more specific as religion is a pretty broad term to use. What does marriage have to do with love? Homosexuals love each other just as much but most religions have a different idea about that kind of love. One that involves either rope, stones or a bonfire. | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:47 Generic SC wrote: Actually homosexuality does happen in nature... I have heard many examples of it. Doubtless many other posters will derail your entire argument with counter examples. Nice try anyway. *Pats on back* But It is against the nature right? can you give me a logical reason for it? have you seen it yourself? is it something normal where you go to Africa, and meh, lion having sex with other lion, don't you see that is strange thing? can you convince me it is that same as if you see Lion having with lioness? Counter example does not mean it is normal thing, even in Islam, there is a rule for this if you see Animals doing this action. Bottom line, counter example does not mean it is natural, stealing is not natural thing and rejected by all people by their nature, BUT you find some people doing it, and even some animals doing it (at least I saw a monkey stealing food from other animals /humans). | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:02 bdair2002 wrote: But It is against the nature right? can you give me a logical reason for it? have you seen it yourself? is it something normal where you go to Africa, and meh, lion having sex with other lion, don't you see that is strange thing? can you convince me it is that same as if you see Lion having with lioness? Counter example does not mean it is normal thing, even in Islam, there is a rule for this if you see Animals doing this action. Bottom line, counter example does not mean it is natural, stealing is not natural thing and rejected by all people by their nature, BUT you find some people doing it, and even some animals doing it (at least I saw a monkey stealing food from other animals /humans). Do you even understand what the word natural means? Occuring in nature. Homosexuality occurs in nature. It is natural. The only reason you seem to be bending the word to whatever twisted meaning it doesn't have, is because "natural" is a positive word, and you don't want to attach it to homosexuality. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 25 2012 19:43 bdair2002 wrote: I honestly see all the people here are arguing with no knowledge, and so much hate against religion in general, religions were found to help humanity not the opposite, you can look at US for Example, take the Gay marriage, I ask you a simple question, have you ever seen a dog having sex with another dog (male to male dog)? it is even against the nature, God created this world and provided us with the rules (religion), Have you ever go to school and you had the right to do what ever you want without punishment? isn't schools have rules and you have to understand and commit to these rules? well Life is more or less like school, you don't have complete freedom to do what ever you want (I bet everyone will agree if I say complete freedom is bad) No, religion was not found to help humanity. And yes there is homosexuality in nature outside of human species and it is well documented. The rules in society have to be judged by themselves, if they are helping the society or not. The rules are not valid just because some old book says they are. Modern countries try to set the rules in a way that what does not harm anyone is allowed. Woman wardrobe does not harm anyone (or to be precise, the harm done by women wearing what they want is miniscule compared to the harm done by regulating their clothing), so no reason for any such rules to be implemented. So yes rules are necessary, but the justification for the rules must be stronger than "because our religion says so". Anyway clothing is really not the problematic part here, the circumcision and unjust and unequal punishments for infidelity are. You agree that circumcision is wrong, so no problem there. As for punishments for infidelity, the corporeal ones are nonsensical as can be seen in any statistic you care to look at. They are not very effective, keep people in unhealthy relationships and the only saving grace that maybe some families with children are saved is more than offset by unhappiness of everyone (often including children) involved. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:02 bdair2002 wrote: But It is against the nature right? can you give me a logical reason for it? have you seen it yourself? is it something normal where you go to Africa, and meh, lion having sex with other lion, don't you see that is strange thing? can you convince me it is that same as if you see Lion having with lioness? Counter example does not mean it is normal thing, even in Islam, there is a rule for this if you see Animals doing this action. Bottom line, counter example does not mean it is natural, stealing is not natural thing and rejected by all people by their nature, BUT you find some people doing it, and even some animals doing it (at least I saw a monkey stealing food from other animals /humans). It is natural as it occurs naturally without human interference. Of course heterosexual sex is different than homosexual, what is your point ? There are evolutionary hypothesis why it occurs. But frankly even if it was the most unnatural thing ever, do you understand the concept of victimless crime ? Your comparison to stealing is nonsensical. Theft causes harm, can you tell me what harm is caused by gays having sex ? And just to point out stealing is also natural. Natural does not mean moral and unnatural does not mean immoral. | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:14 mcc wrote: It is natural as it occurs naturally without human interference. Of course heterosexual sex is different than homosexual, what is your point ? There are evolutionary hypothesis why it occurs. But frankly even if it was the most unnatural thing ever, do you understand the concept of victimless crime ? Your comparison to stealing is nonsensical. Theft causes harm, can you tell me what harm is caused by gays having sex ? And just to point out stealing is also natural. Natural does not mean moral and unnatural does not mean immoral. simple google search http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11B30.pdf God knows better than all of us, he created us, told us homosexual is forbidden, and we have to obey, as simple as that, I ma not going to do the research for you on how homosexual affects the society , creates a lot of diseases, you can do the search your self if you are willing to change to better. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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bN`
Slovenia504 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:21 bdair2002 wrote: simple google search http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11B30.pdf God knows better than all of us, he created us, told us homosexual is forbidden, and we have to obey, as simple as that, I ma not going to do the research for you on how homosexual affects the society , creates a lot of diseases, you can do the search your self if you are willing to change to better. Where exactly do you find these rules God laid out for us to follow? I'm really interested what some other stipulations might be. And you also forgot that homosexual people cause natural disasters(obviously) | ||
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FractalsOnFire
Australia1756 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:21 bdair2002 wrote: simple google search http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11B30.pdf God knows better than all of us, he created us, told us homosexual is forbidden, and we have to obey, as simple as that, I ma not going to do the research for you on how homosexual affects the society , creates a lot of diseases, you can do the search your self if you are willing to change to better. It is a shame, your first post in this thread was okay but when you opened up you just showed how ignorant and foolish you truly are. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone like you. A true shame. | ||
KwarK
United States43746 Posts
On January 25 2012 20:28 FractalsOnFire wrote: It is a shame, your first post in this thread was okay but when you opened up you just showed how ignorant and foolish you truly are. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone like you. A true shame. I've removed him so the topic can return to the original subject. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 25 2012 17:16 LittleAtari wrote: When the religion first started, women were given the right to participate in politics, fight in wars, work, etc. It was ahead of it`s time. Then things fell apart in regards to women after a few decades. What you`re seeing is culture rewriting religion. Islam isn't so ancient. Its history is easy to look up. Edit Just look at the current president of the Islamic Society of North America,the largest western Islamic organization: female, Muslim convert: Dr. Ingrid Mattson http://www.isna.net/ISNAHQ/pages/Ingrid-Mattson-President---US.aspx Funny how everyone sort of ignored Atari's point, because he's 100% right If you read the laws that were originally brought in, there isn't a single country in the world that follows them properly. Lets actually go with the adultery one for a second: - For the punishment to actually be correct, there has to be proof that adultery occurred, and the law dictated there needs to be 4 witnesses to the action in question. There is also a clause about rape, acquitting the male/female from all blame if that was the case. Both parts are totally ignored nowadays, and the cases are all one sided. - There were clear laws for the rules of engagement in wars. None of them are followed by terrorists, especially the part where non-combatants are not allowed to be harmed in any way shape or form. - The hijab was always a matter of choice, but women are forced to wear it nowadays. - Forced marriages were abolished because it ALWAYS came back to the choice of the bride/groom before a marriage was allowed. As we all know well, that's not the case anymore in a lot of countries Its cultural traditions seeping back into religion that was the problem, not the other way around. And the same problem exists today because what we accepted those original mistakes and just moved on. | ||
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