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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch So it starts like a speed expand, but you make 2 queens from your main hatch. If you get roach asap after expanding there is a 15 second timing that banelings have before roaches, so your 2nd queen pops out and you put them both on your ramp eliminating the baneling timing. If you get really scared then you can build a spine near the ramp too. Your hatchery may take some shots, but you should be able to hold it and be far ahead after  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:15 TyrionSC2 wrote: If you want to avoid bling wars let me explain to you the build I use in ZvZ. 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch So it starts like a speed expand, but you make 2 queens from your main hatch. If you get roach asap after expanding there is a 15 second timing that banelings have before roaches, so your 2nd queen pops out and you put them both on your ramp eliminating the baneling timing. If you get really scared then you can build a spine near the ramp too. Your hatchery may take some shots, but you should be able to hold it and be far ahead after Pool first builds lose vs hatch first mass speedling allins, so you MUST get a baneling nest in this build, else it's just cornercutting. And even if you're not getting speedling allined, you're just behind if you can't do some damage, which is pretty hard without banelings. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. | ||
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Keyz1
Canada94 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:31 TyrionSC2 wrote: Well certainly. If they go hatchery first. You'd obviously have to know what to do in each branch. I'm talking about what the op asked, which was ling bling on 1 base. If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. hatch first is safe against every pool later than 11, while in some occasions you might want to cancel it to survive an early allin. Even 8-10pool have been held on prolevel with hatch first openings, even though I wouldn't recommend trying it (with canceling the hatch). on every map that matters, hatch first is a good ZvZ build and me and I think a lot of other players are willing to take the occasional early pool loss (that you might also receive if you go 14/14), for the ability to be even/ahead from the start of 90% of all ZvZs. (of course in a tournament series you also have to be able to play other openings, so that your opponent can't just blindcounter you every game) | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
With hatch first, I will be getting my baneling nest before a 14/14 (unless you go nest before speed), and be able to defend with a spine or two. When I see no expansion or you continue mining gas after 100, I just make pure units and hold easily. I then simply make up to about 30 workers, and then do a roach/ling all-in and it will be impossible for you to hold, especially when I have banes along with it too. If they go hatchery first you need a baneling nest, but they can't really go hatchery first unless there is a ramp or you scout close air spawns in which it is totally safe. You can definitely hatch first, on any map. You can safely go hatch first very easily on taldarim. You can hatch first against 14/14 on steppes of war even (steppes would just make hatch first more vulnerable to 10-12 pool, which you'd normally be even or beat otherwise). hatch first is safe against every pool later than 11, while in some occasions you might want to cancel it to survive an early allin. Even 8-10pool have been held on prolevel with hatch first openings, even though I wouldn't recommend trying it (with canceling the hatch). You dont need pro micro to beat early pools with hatch first. If it's a 6-8 pool, of any variation, you just cancel the hatch. From there you can either move your drones out into the open and a-move, or you can just mineral walk to their base and rally lings from your eventual pool to your drones, and then engage when you have enough. If they don't bring drones, you win with an a-move, no micro necessary. If they do bring drones, you can a-move until their reinforcement lings come, and then a-move once your lings arrive. This isn't even talking about micro tricks like mineral walking or defensive mineral stacking, which hardly require pro micro. You're just a-moving or clicking on mineral patches. You aren't sniping, or baneling raining, or dropping, or kiting here. Just spend an hour or two with a friend or someone from TL and ask them to practice hatch first vs 6 pool. It's not to say I don't die to 14/14 bane aggression when going hatch first, even at masters. But I lose only because of huge blunders on my part, not because it was good aggression. Just like you can still lose to 7 rax all-ins or 4 gate though, there's no reason you should ever lose to such attacks when playing right, but that doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. 14/14 should really only be used in a boX series, when the opponent knows you are going hatch first and so does a 10 pool all in with drones pulled or 10 pool bane, as hatch first will beat early pools as long as you react correctly (read: not pro micro, just cancel hatch, run away until lings pop). Actually thinking about it I don't think I ever lose to 14/14 unless it's like my first game of the day and I get blocked stupidly or forget to make the pool or something as silly as that. | ||
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FogofWar
United States16 Posts
I tried for a long time to avoid ling baneling wars. Lots of losses led me to the following colclusions: If your opponent went pool first, you can transition into ling roach, skipping baneling entirely. If your opponent went hatch first, I see no way of avoiding banelings. The ling flood is too strong; and if you went hatch first, your opponent can make his own baneling nest and be impervious to any attack you might attempt against him. He drones while you're stuck making lings, roaches and/or spines to defend against possible attack. I learned to stop worrying and love the little walking bombs. Just my 2 cents | ||
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Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
What I'm saying is get comfortable with ling bling micro in zvz because with a little practice it will win you games. | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Aggressive 14/14 is not a good decision. If I come across someone who does 14/14, and doesn't take his expansion at 21, I make a few banes to hold any possible aggression, I make 5-10 drones, and then I pump pure roaches and lings off of 1 gas, and I overrun you. There will be no way to stop my roach/ling all-in, it simply won't be possible (unless you absolutely kill all your drones into spines, which is more damage than my attack would've done anyways). You can't play 'aggressive 14/14 while getting an expansion and a bane nest'. You realize I made my hatch and bane nest before you, and I have a bigger econ and larva right? Whatever 'aggressive' play you have in mind 'while taking an expansion and bane nest', you will be laughed off by my even more stronger, aggressive play. Or, even worse, I'll be defensive, and your 'aggression' will send you back into the stone age and by the time you push, I'll have hive tech and ultralisks and mommaships. You post a lot of...silly things. It doesn't make logical sense to be 'aggressive 14/14 while getting a hatch and bane' when I got mine earlier on better econ. You'll have map control for about 40 seconds until mine finishes. Then I'm simply ahead. If you made anything but drones, then I'll just roach/ling all-in you and kill you because you made 10 lings instead of 5 drones at the start for 'aggression'. Which is why hatch first is such a good build. If you don't hatch first either, I will just laugh at any aggression with banelings (against anything above 12pool, my banes will come at the same time with defenders advantage/map transit) cost efficiency. Oh your doing an 11pool double hatch +1 speedling all-in? 2 banes. Ez. After holding your 'aggression' easily, I will just roach/ling all-in you, and you will always die to it because you lack econ to support yourself, or you will die trying to defend against it. You'll just be too far behind economically from a 14/14 that made anything more than 4 lings, to survive, and you aren't going to do shit to me. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 16 2011 14:13 Belial88 wrote: ^ Trust me, you would much rather have 2 bases full of drones than 1 base with zergling speed. And, I get zergling speed right after throwing down the bane nest (if I'm pressured, after I make 4 banes), so my ling speed is only about a minute behind a 14/14. What are you going to do with your map control, take a hidden expansion? Good for you, that makes us both have 2 bases and I continue on my merry way. Aggressive 14/14 is not a good decision. If I come across someone who does 14/14, and doesn't take his expansion at 21, I make a few banes to hold any possible aggression, I make 5-10 drones, and then I pump pure roaches and lings off of 1 gas, and I overrun you. There will be no way to stop my roach/ling all-in, it simply won't be possible (unless you absolutely kill all your drones into spines, which is more damage than my attack would've done anyways). You can't play 'aggressive 14/14 while getting an expansion and a bane nest'. You realize I made my hatch and bane nest before you, and I have a bigger econ and larva right? Whatever 'aggressive' play you have in mind 'while taking an expansion and bane nest', you will be laughed off by my even more stronger, aggressive play. Or, even worse, I'll be defensive, and your 'aggression' will send you back into the stone age and by the time you push, I'll have hive tech and ultralisks and mommaships. You post a lot of...silly things. It doesn't make logical sense to be 'aggressive 14/14 while getting a hatch and bane' when I got mine earlier on better econ. You'll have map control for about 40 seconds until mine finishes. Then I'm simply ahead. If you made anything but drones, then I'll just roach/ling all-in you and kill you because you made 10 lings instead of 5 drones at the start for 'aggression'. Which is why hatch first is such a good build. If you don't hatch first either, I will just laugh at any aggression with banelings (against anything above 12pool, my banes will come at the same time with defenders advantage/map transit) cost efficiency. Oh your doing an 11pool double hatch +1 speedling all-in? 2 banes. Ez. After holding your 'aggression' easily, I will just roach/ling all-in you, and you will always die to it because you lack econ to support yourself, or you will die trying to defend against it. You'll just be too far behind economically from a 14/14 that made anything more than 4 lings, to survive, and you aren't going to do shit to me. If I'm trying to be aggressive with ling/bane or Roach/ling, the guys who go 15 hatch straight into defensive banes are the most irritating thing. I just cannot attack into it. I just have to drone up and try to make up for the deficit later in the game. I've used speedling builds to break a lot of hatch first expands, but it really only should work if they do something fundamentally unsafe. | ||
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Fruitality
Vietnam45 Posts
you build a hatch while attaking no prob you can micro your lings vs banes and scare him he does not know what you got its hard for him to drone etc. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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