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I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia - Page 18
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Q-bert-Z
United States75 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4275 Posts
On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote: Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. Marv took the words out of my mouth. I was in the middle of a post in response to Vivax myself. I prodded, got an answer and responded with my vote, it's pretty clear. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4275 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 16:46 DropBear wrote: I want to firmly stand by Keirathi, he is one of my strongest town reads right now. Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? | ||
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DropBear
Australia4275 Posts
On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote: I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I'll defend Milton for you  He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM Vivax talismania | ||
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DropBear
Australia4275 Posts
On July 13 2012 16:52 Keirathi wrote: Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? Oh whoops that was a mistake, i meant to say Milton. I'm unsure on you. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
You're misrepesenting what I said. Let's look at the reasons you find me suspicious. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I never said talis's plan was scummy. It was a bad plan, but it wasn't scummy. He spends a ton of time after the plan is scrapped talking about it. That is what I find scummy. Not only that, but he takes the plan one step further and draws reads from the way people reacted to it. Drawing reads based on timing from a shitty plan that everyone-and-their-mother-can-see-is-shitty seems like a good way to gain steam for a mislynch. I didn't outline that particularly well so I can understand some confusion on your part. Also, at the time of the post you've outlined in section 2, I'd missed the part in talismania's "Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan" where he put pressure on austin. I didn't want to misrepresent him so I posted the edit. I still stand by my opinion that the pressure he's posted has been pretty weaksauce. He's talked about dropbear and austinmcc being scummy, but he's done very little to follow up such talk. IMO the pressure he's put on people has been "blending in" pressure rather than a real attempt at scumhunting. @ s0Lstice Yes, I have based some of my reads off of meta. You'll notice that all of my meta reads have been on players I've played with before. If I feel that players are getting flak for posting the way they've always posted, I'll say so. That was happening to both Keirathi and austinmcc so I tried to make sure that town knows that's the way they typically post. I don't see anything wrong with that. It gives the town more info about players and their habits, rather than less. You're right on one thing, I should familiarize myself with talismania's meta, which is something I will do now that I've gotten home from work. (They called me in on my day off, the bastards) Just a quick point. In no way does a player following their town meta absolve them of suspicion, but it does push them closer to a null read than a scum read. I'm looking for a player pushing a scummy agenda. Neither austin or Keirathi fit that bill to me. Talismania does. It's as simple as that. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
Vivax is slightly suspicious overall First of all, gonzaw's reason for his townread on Vivax is a couple of joking early game accusations. While I agree that his early posts give a townie feel, they are not the definitive towntell that gonzaw makes them out to be. Vivax is not a typical timid newbie. In the one game I played with him, he was disctinctly bold, confident, and confrontational (as townie). Also, remember that role PMs were sent out significantly prior to the daypost, so scum had time to think about how they wanted to begin the game. Now as to why I think he is suspicious. See these quotes: + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 16:29 Vivax wrote: There's no link to a voting thread in the OP methinks.Add pls? ##Vote On July 12 2012 17:21 Vivax wrote: ##unvote strongandbig ##Vote Miltonkram Well you said you were watching something on tv yesterday and would start calling out scum soon, so I thought you were monitoring the game. Anyway, that was a pretty informative post about marv, you have my seal of approval for unlurking. Now I wanna see something from Milton :p. On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote: @ NSH It's cause of a habit. I just tend to expect links in underlined words <_<. Back to the topic: ##unvote strongandbig Very informative post about marv there. Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted. He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive. Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one. s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game. That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote: I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. I get the feeling that he is not accusing people for any insightful reasons, but rather attacking easy targets for easy reasons. The first vote is on strongandbig for lurking alone. Then strongandbig made his "marv balance" post, and Vivax called it "pretty informative" and gave strongandbig his "seal of approval for unlurking." This seems artificial to me. On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote: Wanted to vote Milton next but he posted. He tries to make himself pretty transparent by posting his games. It's a good sign, but nothing decisive. Next Vivax reveals that he was planning on voting the other lurker (Miltonkram) next. Again, his accusations don't seem like reactions to the game, but rather preordained votes and reasons for voting. He gives a little wishy/washy read on Milton before moving on. On July 12 2012 18:30 Vivax wrote: Speaking of meta, sciberbia doesn't look good based on that.I was with him in two games and I feel like he's being different in this one. s0lstice already pointed out the missing fast posts we're used to see from scib at the start of the game. That alone is forgivable given the posted reasons. But the overall gut feeling is still bad cause of the overall style. On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote: I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience. His suspicions of me also seem a bit baseless. I think he overplays the fact that my first post was an hour late by calling it "forgiveable", as if it was some sin I committed. Then, he dismisses the point about the first post, and says he is left with "the posts that look subjectively different". And immediately after, he sorta discounts this evidence as well, saying that he prefers not to rely heavily on meta. So I am left with a gut feeling read based on posts that look "subjectively different". Again I think this might be a contrived case. Notice that he says hardly anything to persuade anyone else of my guilt (or of strongandbig's for that matter). If he really thinks I am scum, he should be trying to persuade other people. Finally, he has posted this case on Milton + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 09:07 Vivax wrote: I'm not comfortable with a tali lynch. Comparing filters I found Miltonkrams filter to be fairly empty and he targetted the easy target. He posted 1. A list of his games to make himself available for a metacheck. 2. He comments on Talis plan being bad, and that being reason enough to be scummy. My impression of talis plan gone bad so far: It's a magnet for players with no/bad cases to have a reason to post something accusing. The downside is that it might have triggered policy discussion and a lot of chaos, while promising a lot of clarity by forcing players to take a hard stance, so talis plan was risky from a town perspective, and I'd leave it at that. He said it worked in bastard mafia, let's leave it at that: It won't be used here. 3. Defending oneself isn't scummy. If it's really the only thing you do, then yes, but Milton already knows that it's not the only thing tali is doing: still seems to firmly believe in a scum tali. He doesn't have any other reads. He comments on Keirathi and sciberbia being unreadable to him. I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense. He chastises milton for going after the easy target (I'm not really sure talis is an easy target but w/e), but then does it himself by going after the player with the least posts. Vivax then lists a bunch of true facts about milton, but in my opinion doesn't sufficiently explain why they are evidence of miltonkram's guilt. He concludes by saying "I'll go for Milton if I don't see some arguments to his defense", which again seems like rather uninterested scumhunting. Vivax is currently 2nd on my list of suspects after Keirathi. Speaking of which @Keirathi On July 13 2012 14:04 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: That is to say, its unfair to me, but I guess I understand it to an extent. I have a different way of looking at the game and I don't particularly like the whole "point at finger at everything until something sticks" way that day 1 tends to play out as. I'm fairly good at making reads from connections and patterns, but not from this day 1 bullshit. If that is enough to get my lynched, then so be it. I'll play this way any time that I'm town. But at least you aren't killing off a blue, so I'm not really that upset about it. If you're really town, at least give us the chance to read you that way. I don't think this defeatist attitude is going to convince anybody. Do some more scumhunting. Post some of your notes. IMO, nothing in your filter is irrevocably scummy, and I'd like to think that I'd be able to change my mind on you if you are town and make some good posts. I think strongandbig is probably town His "marv balance" post gives me a slightly townie feel. I don't think that all his balance talk is allignment-indicative, but I like that he was suspicious of marv for suggesting a Talis lynch. He basically got the same read as me here. On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote: Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? These seem like townie musings to me, unless maybe gonzaw + strongandbig are both scum. I think he genuinely felt something odd about the posts and put his thoughts in the thread without making a big deal out of it. This would be a rather odd thing for scum to say. His defense against gonzaw was extremely frustrated and confrontational. This is a townie defense in my eyes. It takes nerve as scum to shout a lie. I'd like to seem a few more original cases from him, but overall I'm thinking town on strongandbig and would not like to lynch him today. I'm going to bed. I'll be following the thread from 11AM to 6PM EDT at work. Right now I'd only feel good about lynching Keirathi or Vivax. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
How's that? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:33 Keirathi wrote: I'm not marv, but I'll give my initial impression of your case against him. Your case mostly seems to be about his meta arguments, but all of them were based on games he actually played with those people, not on overall meta. Maybe you're right that he should have gone back and looked at the overall talis meta, but I don't fault him too much for just using meta from games that he was actually a part of and not pouring over thousands of posts of other players to figure out their meta. As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. Also I very much felt that when I read it too, interesting. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 12:01 gonzaw wrote: Also marv, what about S&B? What about Dropbear or Milkton? Do you think EVERYTHING I posted isn't worthy so you go and try to find scum somewhere else? I dunno dude, I posted that so people could post their thoughts about it (and hopefully) agree and vote some of those guys, not to have it completely ignored. Clearly after having read all your usual prattle I felt there was a better option. Basically you're saying here "don't scumhunt! Just listen to me!!!" now THAT is scummy. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On July 13 2012 16:52 Keirathi wrote: Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? This post makes me doubt my scum read on keirathi a little bit. It came out quickly after drop bear's post, and I don't think that a scummy player's first reaction would be to cast doubt on someone defending him. Of course, it could be a clever gambit. It's not conclusive. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
talismania- I've posted my reasoning before. He's promoted an anti-town environment. s0Lstice- When you've got no other reads just sheep the vets, amirite? No, but seriously, let's look at his reasoning for voting me. Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again. And then let's look at his comments later on in the same post. Now talis, you asked about austin. Right now he is looking a lot like he did in his town games. There are no scum games for me to look at, so the meta argument only goes so far. He makes long posts with a lot of stuff that amounts mainly to filler, but he also plants a few nuggets of really good reasoning. This game his effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. He demonizes me for debunking bad reads(IMO) on players based on meta, and then he attempts to clear austinmcc from suspicion partially using meta. True, he includes the clause, "Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unneccessary," but the fact remains that he's guilty of the exact same thing I was trying to do. Other than that I don't have much to add that other players haven't stated. At this moment I wouldn't feel comfortable lynching any other players. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:47 gonzaw wrote: I don't see a "relatively noob" scum posting like this as soon as the game starts. He "jokingly" accused 3 people by that point, and seemed cheerful about it. That's not how noob scum play (why would they try to "joke" accuse people if it puts them more in the spotlight as SOON as the game starts?), hell they even rarely post at the very beginning of the game at all, and they never appear cheerful or anything. Why? Because they are scum that's why, they have to check their scum QT, check their buddies, talk to them, think how they are going to proceed, etc. Someone more experienced could pull this off, but I even doubt that. That's what made me think Radfield wasn't scum on iGrok's game and I was right, basically no scum jumps right into the action at the very start of the game and start joking around and posting without hesitating at all. No, you were wrong. Radfield was scum - SK - in that game, a game where you repeatedly and incorrectly called him townie. Why are you using one of your biggest fail-reads (by comparison, I had Radfield as scum and voted for him as SK, correctly, in igrok's poll) as a way of justifying your townreads here?? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
On July 13 2012 20:10 Miltonkram wrote: s0Lstice- When you've got no other reads just sheep the vets, amirite? Not really sure where this petulance is coming from, but it's unlike you. What's more, you're wrong. Gonzaw has come the closest to really accusing you, but he has since backed off. Other than that, there is Vivax, who is not a vet. More, you want me dead now after Marv posted his case. Before that, nothing on me. So who is sheeping now? Lastly, I was asked to say why I found austin to be town. Part of that is meta, so I said so. It's not the same as what you did. You are asking us to kill talismania, your top scum read, when you haven't done due diligence on your own case by looking at his past games. Having played with him and having done this myself, I know that his past games would give you some insight on the criteria with which you are finding him scummy right now. This would be fine if you aren't a big meta guy, but your use of it in regards to other people says otherwise. It makes me feel like your case is phony/an attempt to blend in, as I said. ------------------------------------------- Marv, I still want to know what you think of Milton. After that you can get back to killing me otay? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 10:33 marvellosity wrote: damnit my case was so badly timed. dumb of me ah, s0lstice. About time I explained this post a little. My case was effectively about you not contributing/posting your own opinons. Options: 1) s0lstice is scum. Correct play is to make a good contributory post with opinions to contradict the case and look townie. 2) s0lstice is townie. Correct play is to make a good contributory post with opinions to contradict the case and look townie. ... that's the problem. I should have sat on the case until sometime today to see if you'd made a post like that without my prompting. So unfortunately I've backed myself into a corner and I'm not sure lynching you is best play :/ re: Milton, I'll take a closer look and get back to you. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 13 2012 06:35 Miltonkram wrote: He's shat up a bunch of the thread talking about his proposal or trying to derail the discussion towards it. On July 13 2012 17:07 Miltonkram wrote: I'm looking for a player pushing a scummy agenda. Neither austin or Keirathi fit that bill to me. Talismania does. It's as simple as that. On July 13 2012 20:10 Miltonkram wrote: talismania- I've posted my reasoning before. He's promoted an anti-town environment. That assumption being that the discussion around the plan 'shat up the thread', 'derailed discussion', 'pushes a scum agenda', or 'promotes an anti-town environment'. Arguably having something to discuss first 24 hours Day 1 actually promotes a positive town environment. Usually Day 1 is full of fumbling around looking for shit to talk about. But look at this game, most people have reads of some description, and the game is going along at a nice pace. What I'm getting at is this - we need to hear from Miltonkram on why exactly he thinks this way. Why does he think the discussions (discussion = good, no?) have promoted an anti-town environment? | ||
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Vivax
21731 Posts
He's in a bad corner cause of his proposition, in page 2 of his filter he stopped talking about the plan, then started calling out people before he got forced into a defensive position again. + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 05:49 talismania wrote: Time to poke the hornet's nest again dropbear what's your response to this (below)? The way I see it, you made a post asking vivax some questions with some implied suspicion maybe. Then marv votes vivax and you eagerly hop on the wagon. When called out, you say you called him out for being suspicious the page earlier, but the only post you made in reference to him was just the one where you asked him questions. You never actually called him out for being suspicious as you said. If there is something I detest, is when someone gets accused for defending himself, like you did, Milton. Defending yourself is playing to win, from each alignments perspective. It's only logical that a guy who has to counter endless arguments can't be actively scumhunting, but Talis posted his reads already on page 1 before people started accusing him so heavily: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice I sure see the effort to post reads and clear stances here. The responses to his plan have quite some potential. Cause I think your arguments made against talis are inflated and not good, I can't believe you to be town yet. In fact, I may not be able to debunk your case against talis, but I still have an overall bad impression of you, Milton. Another thing in your disfavor: Your defense from s0lstices points is actually an attack. You don't seem to have pushed back his arguments regarding you, you rather tried to discredit him for inconsistence regarding meta, that's a pretty OMGUS/scummy type of defense imo. I'll post more about Keirathi and Dropbear soon, they offer quite interesting connections. Gonna try to interprete Dropbears mistake and draw conclusions. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On June 12 2012 18:13 Miltonkram wrote: I know what you mean. It's great being on their team, fucking terrifying when they're working against you Good to see so many familiar faces! Can't wait for this to get started so I can feed my Mafia addictio... uh... I mean... enjoy a wonderfully sporting event with you gents! On June 13 2012 10:35 Miltonkram wrote: Hey all, glad to see we've got a bit of activity already. In NMM XV we actually had a decent discussion about no-lynches (involving me making a fool of myself) and how they can actually be beneficial in certain setups. That being said, we don't know for certain if we'll have any modkills so we should leave no-lynches off the table until we hit the unlikely scenario that a no-lynch is beneficial for the town. Town, the best way to contribute is just to get posting. Let everyone know what your thoughts are. Did someone post something suspicious? Let us know about it. Do you think the town is making a bad move? Let us know about it. If a townie lurks he/she is letting down his/her entire team. So don't do it, K? I'm sooooooooper serious. Like sooooper, soooooooooooper serious. Hey sciberbia, remember this ##Vote: sciberbia ...heh heh heh Miltonkram scum. Friendly, jokey, with a non-explained vote at the start of a game. Such a shit heuristic. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On July 13 2012 20:58 marvellosity wrote: No, you were wrong. Radfield was scum - SK - in that game, a game where you repeatedly and incorrectly called him townie. Why are you using one of your biggest fail-reads (by comparison, I had Radfield as scum and voted for him as SK, correctly, in igrok's poll) as a way of justifying your townreads here?? No I was right, he wasn't scum, he was SK. There's a difference (at least I think there is one). On July 13 2012 22:01 marvellosity wrote: In other news, I'm for some unknown reason still quite annoyed at gonzaw. "Scum don't act lighthearted n shit at the start of games" has been his central premise. Well, while going back through a previous game... Miltonkram scum. Friendly, jokey, with a non-explained vote at the start of a game. Such a shit heuristic. Wtf are you kidding me? That 1st quote was done in Pre-Game  And no that 2nd quote is not what I mean at all. Being "playful" in one post only (or trying to appear one) is not the heuristic I'm using at all. I'm talking about the very start of the game and being active and playful there, not coming to the thread later and trying to cram everything into 1 post before disappearing (what Milton did in that game). Hmm, I'll give you that about joke voting at the start though. Talking about it, I'm not that sure of my town read on Vivax now, but like I said before I'm not happy lynching him on D1. Hmm, okay, this seems a little convoluted right now. There seems to be a subtle Milton vs talismania battle right now (as in, people find either one of them scummy or the other one), but they are not getting too many votes (other than talismania). I still don't see what makes talismania that scummy and worthy of a lynch, and after rereading I keep getting the feeling Milkton is trying to ride through this day easily by accusing talis and solstice later. I still think Keirathi is likely scum (although him being a noob doesn't make me that comfortable about it). I'm still not comfortable at all with S&B and Dropbear, Dropbear specifically. I'd support a lynch on Keirath/Dropbear/Milkton today, I think they are the ones most likely scum for me now @Mattchew: Where are you dude? Will you keep your vote on sciberbia? | ||
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