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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
At the beginning of the cast today we had an audio issue where playing the Probe video caused us to lose all audio in the rest of our cameras/video feeds. We had the observer remove the Probe video from his list of videos and when the icons reorganized themselves, the "final results" video (which in retrospect we didn't even need) was in its place. As we tried to go through the videos to make sure sound was working, the final results video was clicked on momentarily by accident.
When doing things live with tens of thousands of people watching, you have to be able to make fast and effective decisions in an ultrahigh stress environment. That is our job, and we take full responsibility for our decisions. We decided quickly that we had 3 options.
1) Ignore the incident despite people spamming the forum that the results had been spoiled
2) Inject doubt through a quick coverup of "we have many brackets"
3) Announce that yes the results had in fact been spoiled but we hope everyone still enjoys the games...
We figured that only about 10% of the audience actually saw the spoiler and that in order to maintain some integrity for the results we would drop the cover and then leave it alone as no big deal. It worked, and if you were reading chat/the forum and can compare those comments to the ones that would have been posted had a spoil been acknowledged....the choice is pretty clear.
The risk : reward was, piss a few people off : leave a big majority with the opinion that the results released were invalid. Despite having to mislead, i feel this was the correct decision.
On March 01 2010 07:28 Carnac wrote:
Ok. This is what happened:
Everything was set up perfectly. I had run through all the videos with R1CH watching, we had soundchecked early, were ready in perfect time.
Cheerful video is running, music is playing and I switch to the Probe intro to start the cast. Probe intro ends, I switch to the NonY vs Mondi screen and sound on stream for absolutely no reason at all is gone. I start getting mad, because the stream gods apparently hate us (or we really should have sacrificed GTR over a fire!).
Restarting Wirecast (and thus restarting the stream) instantly fixes the sound problem. We decide not to use the Probe video again, because we think it's what made the sound crash (despite it working perfectly in earlier casts and during the test before today's cast as well). I thus remove the Probe video from the Wirecast video list. Since it was one of the first ones in my list everything else moves up one slot.
The stream is restarted with the Nony vs Mondi screen on. I want to switch to the Cheerful video again, but with everything having moved up one slot the bracket video is now in the slot the cheerful video was in before. Visual memory is a bitch, so I run it, instantly recognizing my mistake.
I yell at R1CH to take the stream down instantly, but alas it's too late, the data has already been processed by the streaming server.
Most people were still reconnecting at that time though, so only a minority caught a glimpse of it. The reason posts were deleted and Kennigit posted earlier in this thread was not to hide anything, but to avoid spoilers for the majority who had not yet reconnected. Users mentioning it in this thread over and over again while the cast was still going only made it worse (risk of spoiling to the mahority that didnt see it).
I don't think anyone outside the people involved realize the fragility of our streaming environment, obs, casters & tech crew spread all over the world. Nor does anyone understand the pressure when stuff suddenly goes wrong for no good reason (I still don't understand why Wirecast decided to crash the sound after the Probe vid....) at all with thousands of people watching.
If anyone is mad they got spoiled put yourself in my shoes, thanks.
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South Africa4316 Posts
I wasn't able to watch live, but I do agree with the decision. Just a bit of doubt is enough to keep matches tense. Often when I think I've been spoiled I question whether I know for a fact what I read meant what I thought it did, and that keeps me unsure enough to make the games interesting.
+ Show Spoiler +Even the people who are pissed off now were probably unsure when the score was 2-0 for Mondi with it looking like he'll take it to 3-0
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Running a finals like this is such a big job that it's understandable for something like this to happen, and the crisis management seems like it went pretty smoothly.
It still sucks for the people who were spoiled, but there's no way the TL team could have prevented that given the situation.
Plus, we are already so indebted to the tech team for running such a complicated operation that complaining just seems unreasonable.
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i read on the forums that the result was revealed, but did not read anywhere which one was it.
Don't know if Day9 knew the results, but coming into destination (game 6) he said that it was the final game so yeah...that kind of spoiled it for meh.
besides that, the whole tourney was great 
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I did notice it. I also figured things like this can and will happen once in a while and yelling about it on the forum wasn't going to solve anything.
Sucks getting the final score spoiled before the games, but the awesome work you all have done more than makes up for it. Carnac have been doing a great job all tourney so I'm quite fine with it. It was sad but I'll get over it :D
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Don't know if Day9 knew the results, but coming into destination (game 6) he said that it was the final game so yeah...that kind of spoiled it for meh.
The commentators say things like this accidentally all the time even when its not true, they aren't supposed to know the results and I doubt they were looking at the thread to see that the results were spoiled.
Its sad this happened in the finals but the overall quality of TSL has more than paid for this unfortunate incident in my opinion and seeing how the guys working in this project are doing it without asking for any rewards other than knowing that they're having a huge effect on the growth of esports we can't really be "angry".
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I was alt tabbed during the spoiler. Never new it existed until after the finals were over.
Edit:
Actually, Id be interested in numbers. You should put a poll in the first post of this thread, "Did you see the spoiler?"
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It's fine guys! As long as we were able to watch those games :D
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You guys definitely made the right decision. The many brackets thing was a bit transparent, but probably the best you could have done. The series starting out 0-2 definitely helped your cause, I didn't even think about the spoiler until after the 6th match was over.
Your decision greatly enhanced my enjoyment of this TSL, and for that I thank you.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On March 01 2010 07:49 s.a.y wrote:i read on the forums that the result was revealed, but did not read anywhere which one was it. Don't know if Day9 knew the results, but coming into destination (game 6) he said that it was the final game so yeah...that kind of spoiled it for meh. besides that, the whole tourney was great
Day didn't know the results.
Also, before game 6 he did not say it was the final game, you misunderstood him. Though I don't remember specifically what he said, I do distinctly remember thinking for a moment what you did before I fully understood his comment. It was like "the final games are on destination and andro" or "this could be the final game" or something like that.
Regardless, he wasn't watching the stream when the spoiler was on (casters don't watch the stream), and he didn't know results, so there was no way he can spoil it anyway.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On March 01 2010 07:53 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +Don't know if Day9 knew the results, but coming into destination (game 6) he said that it was the final game so yeah...that kind of spoiled it for meh. The commentators say things like this accidentally all the time even when its not true, they aren't supposed to know the results and I doubt they were looking at the thread to see that the results were spoiled. Yeah, Day and Chill didn't know the results and thus certainly didn't mean to imply it would be the last game.
In fact just shortly after what Puosu mentioned Day talked about how the last two maps (Desti and then Andro, which however didnt need to be played anymore) were the ones Nony had lost on and something along the lines of how he'd feel going into them again etc
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On March 01 2010 07:49 s.a.y wrote:Don't know if Day9 knew the results, but coming into destination (game 6) he said that it was the final game so yeah...that kind of spoiled it for meh. besides that, the whole tourney was great
I believe he actually said it was a deciding game, which is a lot different because everybody know it was a must-win for Mondragon.
(And great job by TL making it look like nothing - I didn't even notice)
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kennigit and everyone else involved did a brilliant job, this is a small-scale "private" esports event not some huge budget production, mistakes are likely.
clearly they have gone above an beyond in the work they have put into the TSL in particular, they have acknoledged their mistakes and unnecessarily provided detailed explainations on what happened and their reasons.
This is not cable tv, no one has paid to see these games or has any investment other than their own time, which is by their own choosing to watch; i think anyone who wishes to complain should be temp-banned for cluttering up the forums and pointless flaming - no good can come of it as re: mistakes have been acknowledged etc etc."
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
it is interesting to note the number of people that took it upon themselves to spread the spoiler as much as they possibly could, compounding the problem after we realized and tried to address it. what is the motivation there?
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Braavos36375 Posts
On March 01 2010 08:08 intrigue wrote:
it is interesting to note the number of people that took it upon themselves to spread the spoiler as much as they possibly could, compounding the problem after we realized and tried to address it. what is the motivation there?
I would guess that it was part frustration that they got spoiled and part just not thinking clearly. Obviously the correct thing to do would be to just shut up about it, but internet users are not exactly known for level-headed, thoughtful action 
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On March 01 2010 08:08 intrigue wrote:
it is interesting to note the number of people that took it upon themselves to spread the spoiler as much as they possibly could, compounding the problem after we realized and tried to address it. what is the motivation there?
my thoughts exactly. I think i should be able to browse a thread BEFORE a game and not have to worry about being spoiled. whatever though shit happens.
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I saw the bracket, but didn't realize it was a spoiler as I was doing other stuff before the cast started.
Thus, damage control was obviously a good call IMO. Most people didn't see it so why spoiler it for everyone?
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I also saw the slide or video and uh the coverup kinda worked for me, I wasn't completely convinced but it didn't need be as explained. I was more pissed at the people who wanted to be jerks and kept saying + Show Spoiler + everywhere... trolls gonna troll...
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Personaly i dont mind spoilers i always spoil myself before watching some games so i dont care !
Finals were amazing !! couldnt be any better... great games some drama and nice comeback really entertaing for me 10/10
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I was a little bit late, but saw all of the games and was not spoiled.
I totally agree with your decision!
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Well, I missed the bracket on the stream, didn't read the thread, and bought the 'we use multiple brackets' explanation. So I had an enjoyable, spoiler-free TSL finals. I really don't understand why people tried so hard to spoil as many other people as possible though. Makes no sense at all.
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at least teamliquid did a better job than MBC did
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I didn't notice it. ^_^ Watched it with a friend live... :-)
Hi CirCle ^^
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On March 01 2010 08:35 SkelA wrote:
Personaly i dont mind spoilers i always spoil myself before watching some games so i dont care !
Finals were amazing !! couldnt be any better... great games some drama and nice comeback really entertaing for me 10/10
Haha, yeah I think you and me are two of the very small number of people who don't mind being spoiled and still watch the games!
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Quite a hilarious cock up looking back on it now, was damn annoying at the time. Especially as TL.net has shown how much they strongly dislike games being spoiled by making Tarson forfeit half his prize money for telling people not to watch his games, for example.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Yup. You should have seen staff irc hahaha. I burst out laughing in shock that it actually happened.
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Looking forward to the first SC2 tourney whenever that will be!
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I think that you guys made the right choice in trying to make it seem like those weren't the actual results. Less people were spoiled because of it, and even the people who did see it probably had a little bit of doubt after Mondragon went up 2-0. I was luckily enough to not see it, since I was playing BW with the stream sound in the background until the games actually came on, and didn't read the LR thread during the games as I was too busy watching them!
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the result was already spoiled when a guy made a thread about djwheat.tv running an interview with the "winner" after the show.
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Hmm.. didn't realized that happened.. I was with a group of friends and we were trying to fix the stream so it didn't affect us.
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I like the way day9 put it:
"The stream is not working right now, so just watch this screen that spoils the results." lol...wow.
I think that the best thing to do would be not the three options listed, but actually create a bunch of smurf accounts and start spamming the thread with random conflicting results. Then people would know the results were leaked but wouldn't know what the actual results were.
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On March 01 2010 12:04 fight_or_flight wrote:
I like the way day9 put it:
"The stream is not working right now, so just watch this screen that spoils the results." lol...wow.
I think that the best thing to do would be not the three options listed, but actually create a bunch of smurf accounts and start spamming the thread with random conflicting results. Then people would know the results were leaked but wouldn't know what the actual results were.
i like this idea. i remember when i finished an SAT practice book and gave it to a friend, i circled every answer to every question so he wouldn't know which one i actually picked.
ofc, you could just "spoil" it next time by posting something similar to "Mondi 4-1"
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I didn't see and knew that people were talking about the spoiler, but it didn't ruin the games for me at all. Good job playing it down and it sucks that people were chatting about it.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 01 2010 11:41 gds wrote:
the result was already spoiled when a guy made a thread about djwheat.tv running an interview with the "winner" after the show.
Do you really think we would only have Nony interviewed? I talked to the players last week about it. Sooo...relax.
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Stop asking people to feel sorry for you. This is not the time and place. This thread should have been a straight-up apology.
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On March 01 2010 13:16 jalstar wrote:
Stop asking people to feel sorry for you. This is not the time and place. This thread should have been a straight-up apology.
yeah you're right, tl staff obviously shouldnt be in charge of tournaments like this. we paid good money, and this is what we get? you should start your own.
+ Show Spoiler +in case it wasn't obvious, tl owes you nothing. and if this thread isnt an apology, then i'm sure you're looking for a "Sorry we fucked up" thread that'll make you even more smug
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On March 01 2010 13:16 jalstar wrote:
Stop asking people to feel sorry for you. This is not the time and place. This thread should have been a straight-up apology.
They did apologize... this basically was an apology, and Carnac apologized himself.
What more do you want?
Did this FREE, COMMUNITY RAN tournament not satisfy you or something? >_>
I didn't like the spoiler either, but hell, it was a great tourny.  I'm upset. What'll I do on weekends now? T_T
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As soon as it went 3-2 for NonY I knew he would win the next game. :/ It's okay though because Canada beat the U.S.! lol
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It was a great tourney otherwise, and this would have pissed me off even if they were paying me to watch it. You can't make a mistake like that and say "ohhh, but this is so hard on us, please feel sorry for US"
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Note that I forgive the mistake. I just think this is a really shitty "apology" (and Carnac didn't apologize at all)
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On March 01 2010 10:25 Terranist wrote:
at least teamliquid did a better job than MBC did
Very kind of them to set such low standards right before TSL started.
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On March 01 2010 13:44 jalstar wrote:
Note that I forgive the mistake. I just think this is a really shitty "apology" (and Carnac didn't apologize at all)
Unfortunately TL doesn't have a PR department and most of the staff probably feels exhausted from the event and defensive since of course they have sponsors. Perhaps they feel they shouldn't apologize when they are donating their time in the first place.
Of course apologizing is the professional thing to do and in no way demeans or places blame on anyone personally. For example, I told one of my friends to view the stream today and will probably apologize to him on TL's behalf simply because I'm a member of this site.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
It's not about donating time or sponsors - we go well out of our way to explain the technical issues that lead/led to delays or instances. If what we've written isn't good enough for you, then i really don't care. I think constructive feedback is important, and did affect change throughout the tournament. If you read through all these threads/posts and go "you didn't say sorry", then i'm sorry but you really don't belong here.
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I would have been more sympathetic to the idea of a cover up if the cover up was remotely plausible, but I guess there weren't many plausible explanations to choose from. :/
I almost would have preferred that you straight up lied "To everyone saying it's + Show Spoiler +, you're wrong. Shut up." And post brackets. That would have been audacious enough to convince people.
I saw the spoiler and rolled my eyes at the "anti-spoiler" post
The real people who screwed this up were the idiots who posted the spoiler... gah...
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I just wish the posts that had the spoiler in them were deleted on sight. I was browsing the discussion forum while the stream was down and happened to see a post with the result in it, then zatic replied to it saying "No". This seemed weird to me at the time and I really wish instead of denying it it would have just been erased.
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I missed the first part of the stream due to being in town -.- BUT I was not spoiled at all and I had a great experience with the tournament.
Thank you TSL STAFF!!!!!
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I couldn't connect to the stream so I checked the thread. Luckily I'm a patient person, so I waited a while. I also only looked at the final page of the thread. Someone posted that it had been been spoiled, but they were considerate enough not to quote or spoil it themselves. So while I knew that the results had been spoiled, they hadn't been spoiled for me. I missed all the pregame talk, but got on the stream right after the first game had started, it was not ideal (I like pre-game talk), but great nonetheless.
Also, I want to point out that the stream itself worked great today. Once it was up and running it only paused once for a couple seconds. The audio worked, the post tournament interview worked. There was no audio dropped problems. The casters were great and sounded good. The volume levels were consistent (usually the bracket song is louder than everything else). Video quality was high. All in all a great cast. Thanks to everyone who helped make it happen.
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all in all i think tarson deserves an apology for the ironic situation the TSL admins have found themselves in
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I saw the spoilers and unfortunately I stopped watching after the first 2 games as it was kind of ruined for me. Regardless, i'm not complaining, it's not like I was paying to watch the TSL (even though I would've). Your decision was definitely right. I'm sure 95% of people watching had no idea what the results were. Understanding that the TSL isn't exactly run by major TV station or something makes it pretty easy to see how these things happen... actually, they happen for them too (poweroutage).
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On March 01 2010 16:06 EDEdDNEdDYFaN wrote:
all in all i think tarson deserves an apology for the ironic situation the TSL admins have found themselves in
Not really, the finals incident was an accident, while Tarson actually went out of his way to make a forum post about it.
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I wasn't spoiled, but it sounds like you made the right call given the situation.
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I dunno who would complain but it's pretty immature - you really have no right when it wasn't a lack of quality or ability on TL's behalf but a genuine human error. Random mistakes can never be helped and it wasn't for a lack of effort or professionalism on behalf of the TL staff; just forget you saw it or assume it was a fake bracket and enjoy the show anyway.
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Australia7069 Posts
I was lucky, i had the stream in the background waiting for audio. Saw spam on IRC someone sail spoilers, so i just minimized it and kept watching. TSL was awesome. Staff were awesome. People who enjoy ruining shit for everyone else by spreading spoilers should DIAF. Glad to see some of them got banned (reading the LR in hindsight)
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agree with the decision and i saw the whole stream, from start to finish. and i didnt even register the "spoil" xD
but, the finals where epic, game 2 on andro, WOW! damn, gotta give props to the players, tl and pokerstrategy for giving us the opportunity of watching such a high-lvl tournament! :D
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On March 01 2010 16:19 Alphonsse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 16:06 EDEdDNEdDYFaN wrote:
all in all i think tarson deserves an apology for the ironic situation the TSL admins have found themselves in Not really, the finals incident was an accident, while Tarson actually went out of his way to make a forum post about it.
Let's go halfway - Carnac gives back half of his prize money from this TSL and the whole thing goes away.
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What's hilarious to me is I distinctly remember seeing that bracket, and I was so interested in looking at the earlier rounds that I didn't see casted, like the ro36 and stuff, that my eyes never wandered over to the finals. I just presumed the grand finals result was blank and was trying to figure out if nony had played and PVZ's yet in the ro36 or w/e
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Well, shit happens, and I'd like to see anyone come up with a better explanation that fast, with 15k+ people looking at it, ready to skin you from their moms' basements ^^
Still think you've done a hell of a job TL
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ive seen the spoiler too but it was no big deal since ive got it wrong and thought 4-2 mondi xD
so in the end it got thrilling too :D
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I came into game two, so didnt know the spoiler. However I was on the IRC chat and some people where saying the results, but I thought "yeah yeah another noob trying to get attention". But then he was banned and I thought "hmm, maybe he actually knew the result". But still think it was the right decision.
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I got home too late so I switched the stream on at the start of the third game, and I was blisfully unaware of any spoiler, and watched the nailbiting final purely, and enjoyed it immensly. Well handled, and thanks for a great (and that word doesnt quite do enough justice) tournament.
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Well, I didn't get spoiled and really enjoyed the cast and want to thank you guys for the great work and it's too bad it had to glitch but hey nothing is ever perfect. Excellent cast and I couldn't imagine the stress from being in yours spot.
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EPT
