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On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
Maru also won OSL and SSL which are by your definition type 2 tournaments (higher prize seasonal tournament)
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On October 10 2022 23:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. Maru also won OSL and SSL which are by your definition type 2 tournaments (higher prize seasonal tournament)
Right, Serral also won 2 GSL vs World, which is a type 3 tournament in term of format but has the prize of a type 2.
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On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service.
I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd
As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition
I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
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On October 10 2022 15:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2022 10:16 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2022 06:07 Slydie wrote:On October 10 2022 04:46 Durnuu wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military And somehow the competition in IEM isn't weaker?  What is so fantastic about GOAT discussions is that you can come to different conclusions depending on the criteria and keep arguing forever. How many true consensus GOATs in any field are there even? Usain Bolt, Babe Ruth and...?? Even Lebron James has stiff competition from Michael Jordan. Afaik Michael Jordan is undisputed GOAT in basketball. He is and even if he wasn't, there's at least 3 guys ahead of Lebron James in the discussion. The only reason Lebron gets talked about is recency bias.
I actually dont give a damn about basketball, but that several of you got lured into arguing about who the real GOAT of the sport is...
It started in way back, when I was listening to a Liverpool and a ManU fand arguing about which club was the "best" by slamming acomplishments at eachother. Even though there were no discussion ManU was the best at the time, none of them backed off, and the Liverpool guy jumped severeal seasons back and dug up historic triumphs to support his case.
Then, I have followed NFL for a while, and they have a very long off-season where a whole staff of writers and commentators are spending their time making and discussing useless mock drafts and ranking lists.
Maybe some find great entertainment of discussing things like historic skill ranking and "GOAT" status, but I think it is boring and pointless.
I think an acomplishment should be appreciated in its own right.
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On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs
Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL.
Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
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it may be easy to not realize just how well ragnarok has been preparing for matches. i could see him out strategizing maru.
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On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL.
Let’s be real here.
Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players
Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else
Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL
If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes
That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
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France12883 Posts
On October 11 2022 06:12 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL. Let’s be real here. Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL
Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are.
It’s basically super human achievement
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On October 11 2022 06:26 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 06:12 TossHeroes wrote:On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On October 08 2022 11:49 wchigo wrote:
Will this finally be the time that we see the G5L be awarded?!?! :O Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL. Let’s be real here. Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement
Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL
Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL?
Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too)
Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement.
No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL.
Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside)
All hail Goat Rogue
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On October 09 2022 15:53 RaiKageRyu wrote:
How many G5L attempts has it been? I feel like a choke of epic proportions may play out and it will elude him yet again.
he won the gsl what 3 times in a row already though?
at this point if he loses again its safe to say there is TRULY a G5L curse and not him choking.
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On October 11 2022 07:17 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 06:26 Poopi wrote:On October 11 2022 06:12 TossHeroes wrote:On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL. Let’s be real here. Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL? Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too) Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement. No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL. Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside) All hail Goat Rogue
werent serrals 4 wcs wins all region locked to foreigners only at the time?
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A Korean starleague nowadays is obviously worth less than an IEM Katowice. But from at least 2010-2017 it was far harder to win a starleague than a world championship or anything else. Far too many weak players at the world championships during those years. In 2018 it was around equal difficulty just because of how good Serral was so his omission made a big difference. In 2019 it started to become easier than IEM because of KR retirements and the rise of Reynor as well as Serral continuing to play at a high level.
And the which would a player rather win argument is not fully relevant to tournament difficulty. The answer to that for most players is simply going to be the tournament with the highest first place prize. They would give the same answer if the question was WESG or GSL and WESG is always rated lower.
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well, I think people are missing the point, which is that Zerg is clearly imba, and for Maru to still be able to win championships is the real reason he's the best SC2 player.
if you teach Godzilla to put balls in a hoop and place him and MJ on a basketball court, Godzilla will win, doesn't make him the better basketball player.
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On October 11 2022 07:31 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 07:17 TossHeroes wrote:On October 11 2022 06:26 Poopi wrote:On October 11 2022 06:12 TossHeroes wrote:On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:
[quote]
If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL. Let’s be real here. Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL? Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too) Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement. No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL. Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside) All hail Goat Rogue werent serrals 4 wcs wins all region locked to foreigners only at the time?
Yes.
Which is why his wall of text makes absolutely zero sense.
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On October 11 2022 07:17 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2022 06:26 Poopi wrote:On October 11 2022 06:12 TossHeroes wrote:On October 11 2022 05:34 Charoisaur wrote:On October 11 2022 05:07 TossHeroes wrote:On October 10 2022 22:46 tigera6 wrote:On October 10 2022 04:44 TossHeroes wrote:On October 08 2022 21:42 Charoisaur wrote:On October 08 2022 17:51 tigera6 wrote:On October 08 2022 14:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
[quote]
Bigger question is: Does Maru retire as the greatest SC2 player ever? If he win the coming IEM, and we can start talk about that. At the moment its still Rogue/Serral imo. Why is having won an IEM a requirement for the Goat title but not having won a GSL? Cause that’s where all the best players compete An event that’s once a year , so basically one try per year Unlike GSL that’s 3-4 times a year Took Maru like what 20 tries? to get 4 GSLs And let’s not sugarcoat it, his competition in GSL gets weaker each season due to other players having to go to the military But Maru won 4 titles when the competition was still at the higher level, its Rogue recent GSL title that has the weaker player pool. And to make a comparison, Serral only won 1 EU title in the ESL DH era out of 7 tournament so far. So Maru winning 4 out of 20 tries are not that bad imo. I agree about the lack of an IEM title, because they way I see it there are 3 different levels of tournament, the mega prize pool tournament, the higher prize seasonal tournament (GSL or WCS/DH regional) and the weekend-type tournament with lower prize pool (ST, DH Global,TSL, ect.). Maru won 1 WESG, whether its type 1 or type 2 is up for debate, 4 GSL titles, and several other weekend type tournament. Rogue won 3 top level tournaments (2 IEM + 1 WCS), 4 GSL but he doesnt win a lot of type 3 tournament. Serral won 2 (1 IEM + 1 WCS), lots of regional tournaments (mainly under WCS system), and several other weekend type tournament as well. Another thing to consider is consistency in term of how deep the players make it into top 2/4/6, in which Serral and Maru are just clearly better than Rogue. As things stand today, I would still favor Rogue because of 3 top level tournament wins, and Serral are also right there with just one less title. If Maru win this GSL, and the coming IEM and I think he will pass Serral but not Rogue. However, I also believe both Serral and Maru would pass Rogue if SC2 tournaments still continue into next year simply because of his military service. I agree as well that Rogue and Serral are the clear cut top 2 and Maru is a distant 3rd As long as Maru doesn’t win an IEM / blizzcon event, I cannot put him In the same discussion even if he keeps winning these current watered down GSL competition I can even make a good argument of having Dark higher than Maru since he also has a blizzcon vic along with his multiple GSLs Again, you can make the exact same argument for Serral just with replacing IEM with GSL. Seems a bit hypocritical to me to say you can't be the Goat if you haven't won an IEM but you can be the Goat despite not having won a GSL. Let’s be real here. Winning an IEM / blizzcon is the goal and dream for all sc2 players Overrating and saying “oh GSL is the hardest trophy to win” is something only the Korean elitist say to try to devalue everything else Ask any SC2 player in the world. And All of them will say they want to win an IEM over GSL If Maru won those 4 GSL during the golden age Kespa era then this would be a different conversation, but the fact is Maru won his GSL when all his competition got older and left their primes That’s like me saying Homecup = GSL Maru won an OSL during the golden era, idk when was his SSL win but it might have been during the same time frame. He also was the best proleague player (the hardest team league in the world, with actual snipers); then won 4 code S in a row when the competition was its fiercest in the post kespa era. 2018 KR was not as weak as nowadays, and funnily even IEM winner Reynor got eliminated in the first round of this weak GSL, which makes you realize how impossible Maru’s 4 wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement Reynor wasn’t trying, jet lagged, and was saving his build for the more important tournament TSL. He didn’t really care about an unimportant event such as GSL Oh wait or are these excuses for Maru when he gets rekt outside of GSL? Funny how GSL champ herO got eliminated r48 in iEM. (We can play this game too) Makes you realize how impossible Serral 4 WCS wins in a row are. It’s basically super human achievement. No one’s comes close to Serral’s WCS wins. While there are multiple people with 4GSL. Only reason why Maru won those GSLS IN 2018 cause he didnt face sOs. Cause we all saw what happened when he did in blizzcon 3-0 (jokes aside) All hail Goat Rogue
To say that World Champioship were the only one that count is pretty superficial, because that means Byun is above Maru because he won Blizzcon in 2016, which anyone know that its ridiculous. On that same note, thats why Dark is not mentioned because hes lacking of some win in GSL code S (type 2 by my classification).
And to say Maru won the GSL because he didnt face sOs is another poor claim, because Maru DID beat sOs in Ro8 for his 1st title run. And also you claim Serral winning 4 straight WCS title is impressive, while ignoring what I said about his winning record in DH EU (won 1 out of 7) is just another mistake/bias.
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I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
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On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge.
All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments.
Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments.
Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance.
I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
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On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous.
Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
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On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
It's a lot easier to be consistent when the tournaments you play in are on average easier in the earlier stages (by virtue of having a bunch of foreigners in them). I'm willing to bet money that maru bombing out of foreign tournaments means in 99% of cases just getting top 4
Edit: the worse result he has had in a foreign tournament since 2021 was a top 8 at iem. Every other result is a top 4, top 2, or top 1.  Maru/Results
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On October 12 2022 20:30 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2022 18:06 Charoisaur wrote:On October 12 2022 11:56 tskarzyn wrote:
I'm a huge Maru fanboy, but Serral has to be the goat.
-Winning record vs. the other GOAT contenders (Maru, Rogue)
-#1 in premier wins
-#1 in win rate (he has won an insane 77% of tournament matches)
-#1 in top 3 finish per tournament played
The only asterisk on his record is the fact that he plays what seems to be, going strictly by the data, the strongest race. I'm not sure that's enough to give Maru the edge. All of those criteria except the first are heavily biased in favor of Serral due to the fact he can farm region-locked tournaments. Rogue has won the most high-prestige tournaments. Maru has the highest longevity, has won by far the most korean tournaments, won in the most competitive era and as you already mentioned had the ability to defy the odds in terms of race balance. I'm not saying there is a clear Goat as it depends on criteria but cherry-picking statistics which are obviously biased in favor of 1 player and take that as proof he is the Goat is quite disingenous. Here's a soft criteria. $1M tournament in one month. Neutral location, somewhere that's difficult for everyone to get to. Who is your favorite to win? Maru has longevity, yes, but you'd also expect a lot more wins from a GOAT with that longevity. I can't count the number of times he and Rogue have bombed out of tournaments. Serral's bad days are a top 4 finish, and he's the favorite in every tournament he enters.
Depending on map pool and bracket, if Serral has to play Dark, herO and Reynor consecutively before making the Final and Maru "only" has to face Clem, HM then I would take Maru odd of winning.
I feel that Serral ZvT is too good at the moment for even Maru to win, but his ZvZ and ZvP can be had.
And its a damn myth that Maru bombed out early in tournament, maybe from years ago but not in recent years.
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EPT
