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France12911 Posts
On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it.
No ping / timezone issues is a big bonus though, and Rogue / Trap / Cure probably won’t be able to go to Katowice either anyways because of their incoming service
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On July 01 2022 02:03 rwala wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. I understand the pros & cons of offline versus online, but when KOB, TSL, ASUS ROG, etc. are putting on tourneys with higher levels of competition without ping, etc. clearly and demonstrably harming the quality of the matches you have to question whether these trade-offs are worth it. A DHM without Rogue, Trap, and Serral is just...weird. These are not my favorite players, FWIW. I just want to see tourneys where the best of the best are duking it out. Anyways, I'm sure the event will still be awesome. Just a bummer not to see these top tier players competing.
Serral cancelled for personal reasons so his name is totally irrelevant to the question of online vs offline
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On July 01 2022 06:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. No ping / timezone issues is a big bonus though, and Rogue / Trap / Cure probably won’t be able to go to Katowice either anyways because of their incoming service
The whole timezone thing got messed up because players would have to travel long hours into the event just days before, aka jet lag is a thing. As for the ping, I guess playesr should be quite used to it at this point after more than a year already. In fact, I have seen players done better with lag in online tournament, comparing to the offline environment (GSL). Maybe its because of the pressure of playing live in front of the audience, but I just dont see having Ping being that big of a deal breaker anymore.
And the World Championship must be done in offline for sure, given its status and top level prize pool. But for such event as Valencia, its not neccessary a great thing for offline, where players have to deal with long and expensive traveling plan, delayed flight, foreign policy and such. To the point that, it might not be worth it for players to join, or get the permission to do it.
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On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway?
The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there.
And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe.
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On July 01 2022 08:39 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway? The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there. And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe.
"Online" is not a bubble though. It is a luxury that only Esports has (a good one tbh), but it still isn't as fair compared to an offline event. And you need offline events, especially now that every other Esports is already doing offline events again. And in every sport it is fairly simple: The event is set on a time, date and location. And if you, for whatever reason, cannot attend that event...that sucks for you, but nothing can be done. The only one who worked around that was Riot with RNG at MSI, but everyone hated that. RNG was under constant cheating alligations, even though they (and Riot) put in lots of effort to make it possible. before that, the vietnamese Teams had to cancel multiple big events, which sucked, but it was just affecting one region.
Now, I will say, if the complete korean region was affected (or Europe), I would go with your point. THAT would be the scale that affects things. But for just three koreans? No, just no.
Also, just as a side-note, why did no one ever suggest that GSL is hold online? Hard for players like Serral, Clem and Reynor to attend such an event with all the travel (or having to live in Korea for 2-3 months). GSL should be online so the best can play, right?
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Northern Ireland26499 Posts
On July 02 2022 00:29 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 08:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway? The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there. And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe. "Online" is not a bubble though. It is a luxury that only Esports has (a good one tbh), but it still isn't as fair compared to an offline event. And you need offline events, especially now that every other Esports is already doing offline events again. And in every sport it is fairly simple: The event is set on a time, date and location. And if you, for whatever reason, cannot attend that event...that sucks for you, but nothing can be done. The only one who worked around that was Riot with RNG at MSI, but everyone hated that. RNG was under constant cheating alligations, even though they (and Riot) put in lots of effort to make it possible. before that, the vietnamese Teams had to cancel multiple big events, which sucked, but it was just affecting one region. Now, I will say, if the complete korean region was affected (or Europe), I would go with your point. THAT would be the scale that affects things. But for just three koreans? No, just no. Also, just as a side-note, why did no one ever suggest that GSL is hold online? Hard for players like Serral, Clem and Reynor to attend such an event with all the travel (or having to live in Korea for 2-3 months). GSL should be online so the best can play, right?
Your GSL point is a very good one.
There’s certainly a good case for online events to cost cut, especially regional ones.
For the few big internationals we have left, offline seems preferable to me purely on ping considerations alone.
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On July 02 2022 00:29 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2022 08:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway? The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there. And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe. "Online" is not a bubble though. It is a luxury that only Esports has (a good one tbh), but it still isn't as fair compared to an offline event. And you need offline events, especially now that every other Esports is already doing offline events again. And in every sport it is fairly simple: The event is set on a time, date and location. And if you, for whatever reason, cannot attend that event...that sucks for you, but nothing can be done. The only one who worked around that was Riot with RNG at MSI, but everyone hated that. RNG was under constant cheating alligations, even though they (and Riot) put in lots of effort to make it possible. before that, the vietnamese Teams had to cancel multiple big events, which sucked, but it was just affecting one region. Now, I will say, if the complete korean region was affected (or Europe), I would go with your point. THAT would be the scale that affects things. But for just three koreans? No, just no. Also, just as a side-note, why did no one ever suggest that GSL is hold online? Hard for players like Serral, Clem and Reynor to attend such an event with all the travel (or having to live in Korea for 2-3 months). GSL should be online so the best can play, right?
I think I already pointed out that it impacted for than just 3 KRs due to impending military service. Granted most of the case are by personal choice, aka MaxPax & Serral, but others are because of the cost vs benefit of the events to players. Zoun, Classic, Armani, Ryung didnt join, because they cant afford the flight ticket and accommodation with how much the prize is for the tournament. Russian and Chinese player are also stuck because of the same reason, and Bunny just got hit with Covid while being over there and probably had to forfeit his GSL run this season with more money on the line. And with how the "offline LAN" really sucks during the whole tournament, game delay, stream breaking down, spike in lag, relatively small crowd, I am not sure if the offline event was really worth it THIS TIME. I am not opposing offline events in general, but I dont think now is the right time to implement it, thats all.
As for GSL, they are not trying to promote it as a Global Event, despite being call "Global" I know, where everyone are expected/planned to join. Its an SC2 tournament host by AfreecaTV, who want to do it at the Afreeca studio for their streaming/production purpose. In some sense, its like the HSC before it become part of EPT, always be hosted at one place, everyone are welcomed but they have no real restriction/requirement for international participation. GSL just has more prize pool and a MUCH longer schedule comparing to others.
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On July 04 2022 13:24 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2022 00:29 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 08:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway? The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there. And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe. "Online" is not a bubble though. It is a luxury that only Esports has (a good one tbh), but it still isn't as fair compared to an offline event. And you need offline events, especially now that every other Esports is already doing offline events again. And in every sport it is fairly simple: The event is set on a time, date and location. And if you, for whatever reason, cannot attend that event...that sucks for you, but nothing can be done. The only one who worked around that was Riot with RNG at MSI, but everyone hated that. RNG was under constant cheating alligations, even though they (and Riot) put in lots of effort to make it possible. before that, the vietnamese Teams had to cancel multiple big events, which sucked, but it was just affecting one region. Now, I will say, if the complete korean region was affected (or Europe), I would go with your point. THAT would be the scale that affects things. But for just three koreans? No, just no. Also, just as a side-note, why did no one ever suggest that GSL is hold online? Hard for players like Serral, Clem and Reynor to attend such an event with all the travel (or having to live in Korea for 2-3 months). GSL should be online so the best can play, right? I think I already pointed out that it impacted for than just 3 KRs due to impending military service. Granted most of the case are by personal choice, aka MaxPax & Serral, but others are because of the cost vs benefit of the events to players. Zoun, Classic, Armani, Ryung didnt join, because they cant afford the flight ticket and accommodation with how much the prize is for the tournament. Russian and Chinese player are also stuck because of the same reason, and Bunny just got hit with Covid while being over there and probably had to forfeit his GSL run this season with more money on the line. And with how the "offline LAN" really sucks during the whole tournament, game delay, stream breaking down, spike in lag, relatively small crowd, I am not sure if the offline event was really worth it THIS TIME. I am not opposing offline events in general, but I dont think now is the right time to implement it, thats all. As for GSL, they are not trying to promote it as a Global Event, despite being call "Global" I know, where everyone are expected/planned to join. Its an SC2 tournament host by AfreecaTV, who want to do it at the Afreeca studio for their streaming/production purpose. In some sense, its like the HSC before it become part of EPT, always be hosted at one place, everyone are welcomed but they have no real restriction/requirement for international participation. GSL just has more prize pool and a MUCH longer schedule comparing to others.
If not right now then when should be the right time to implement offline events? There will always be players not willing / able to travel for whatever reason. There will be no better time to implement offline events than now.
I just completely disagree with your point that it should have been online so that more players can attend, in most offline tournaments we had (bar the world championships) many players weren't participating and nobody demanded the tournament should have been online so everyone can easily attend
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On July 04 2022 13:24 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2022 00:29 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 08:39 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 06:42 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 06:31 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 04:13 Balnazza wrote:On July 01 2022 01:00 tigera6 wrote:On July 01 2022 00:41 Balnazza wrote:On June 30 2022 22:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This whole situation sucks a lot. Lets just get back to online events and leave only Katowice offline. Its no use losing so many players just for the sake of having the event offline... So 60-ish players should not get the chance to play an offline event, which very well could be one of the last big ones SC2 ever sees (unlikely, but the chance is there with the contract running out), because six players who qualified couldn't attend? This is not "just for the sake of having the event offline". Offline events are the norm, not the exception. Koreans had this problem in SC2 since the very beginning, so I'm actually asking: Did you ever complain about this before or is it just now because maybe one of your favorite players is affected? Except that among those 6 players there are like 3 in the top 10 and the other 3 are in top 20 in the world. Couple that with the on-going issue with the war in Ukraine, the Covid policy in China, and the horrific flying experience that players are having to endure to travel there right now, it really bring down the great experience that the offline event supposed to provide, for both the players and the audiences. I guess they should continue the event regardless because it has been planned for months, but I dont feel as much excitement about this one personally . Sorry, but scheduling a tournament just for the top 10 is the opposite of sportsmanship. A tournament stands for itself, no matter who can or cannot come. And it isn't even sure if Serral would be able to play a tournament from home since we don't know the reason he isn't traveling to Valencia. And quite honestly: Neither China nor Russia/Ukraine are a big loss in terms of players who can attend. No offense to the players of course, but who from those three countries is actually a loss? Basically only TIME, no one else. If Australia couldn't send players, no one would care, either. But among all the things that make a tournament great, is having great contenders and high level of competition. Imagine the NBA without Curry, Lebron, KD, Giannis. Or the World Cup without Germany, Italy, France, ect... And while we dont know if Serral can play online, we DO know the KRs player and MaxPax can, along with the Russian and Chinese player (mainly Skillous, Rattata and Time). Thats plenty of good players missing already imo, and some people might put an asterisk into whoever winning this tournament because of it. As far as I know, Skillous isn't in Russia anymore anyway, so I don't know his travel situation. But to keep it on your example: Would you postpone or even cancel the NBA playoffs/finals because none of the favorites is there? Or maybe a few big names got injured? No, you wouldn't. And the same should go for this. MaxPax btw is again not traveling for personal reasons (I will just assume he either has jitters or travel sickness, though I obviously don't know for sure). There was another player who never could attend big tournaments in WC3 and SC2 - Satiini. I have NEVER heard the phrase "that is so unfair, the entire tournament should be online so he can play!" The biggest competition has to be offline, that is a fact for years. Covid didn't change that at all. It was a big accomplishement of Esports to finally play the biggest events offline - why would you revert that? Especially for basically two or three koreans who can't attend the World Championship anyway? The question was never about canceling the tournament, in fact they should keep it going because everything has been planned and organized. Its about the comparison of environment between online vs offline. If you want to use futher comparison with the NBA, then think about how they compromise to have the NBA in the bubble 2 years ago. They did not cancel the season but made plan so that most of the top teams can play in it. Hypothetical, if another Covid outbreak happen right now in the US and some teams cant travel and play, you think they will cancel the next NBA season? No, they will either play in the bubble again or do something else to make sure that all the top players can be there. And I am not speaking just for a couple of KR players who cant play because of travel restriction due to impending military service, its also about others who also cant join, or get affected, because of the impact of the war, the Covid policy,and the god awful air travel problem that currently in Europe. "Online" is not a bubble though. It is a luxury that only Esports has (a good one tbh), but it still isn't as fair compared to an offline event. And you need offline events, especially now that every other Esports is already doing offline events again. And in every sport it is fairly simple: The event is set on a time, date and location. And if you, for whatever reason, cannot attend that event...that sucks for you, but nothing can be done. The only one who worked around that was Riot with RNG at MSI, but everyone hated that. RNG was under constant cheating alligations, even though they (and Riot) put in lots of effort to make it possible. before that, the vietnamese Teams had to cancel multiple big events, which sucked, but it was just affecting one region. Now, I will say, if the complete korean region was affected (or Europe), I would go with your point. THAT would be the scale that affects things. But for just three koreans? No, just no. Also, just as a side-note, why did no one ever suggest that GSL is hold online? Hard for players like Serral, Clem and Reynor to attend such an event with all the travel (or having to live in Korea for 2-3 months). GSL should be online so the best can play, right? I think I already pointed out that it impacted for than just 3 KRs due to impending military service. Granted most of the case are by personal choice, aka MaxPax & Serral, but others are because of the cost vs benefit of the events to players. Zoun, Classic, Armani, Ryung didnt join, because they cant afford the flight ticket and accommodation with how much the prize is for the tournament. Russian and Chinese player are also stuck because of the same reason, and Bunny just got hit with Covid while being over there and probably had to forfeit his GSL run this season with more money on the line. And with how the "offline LAN" really sucks during the whole tournament, game delay, stream breaking down, spike in lag, relatively small crowd, I am not sure if the offline event was really worth it THIS TIME. I am not opposing offline events in general, but I dont think now is the right time to implement it, thats all. As for GSL, they are not trying to promote it as a Global Event, despite being call "Global" I know, where everyone are expected/planned to join. Its an SC2 tournament host by AfreecaTV, who want to do it at the Afreeca studio for their streaming/production purpose. In some sense, its like the HSC before it become part of EPT, always be hosted at one place, everyone are welcomed but they have no real restriction/requirement for international participation. GSL just has more prize pool and a MUCH longer schedule comparing to others.
I totally agree with my forposter...when exactly is the right time to do offline events again? Game won't get any bigger at this point, there will always be a year when one of the top koreans has to do military service. Nobody knows how long the War will go on or how long China will do their 0-Covid-Policy.
The only thing that should be discussed is if the format of DreamHack is still useful. Having a first group stage with only one group or something like that is just weird. Maybe we just need events with ~32 players, but all of them get paid travel. But this Open events don't seem that promising anymore.
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Northern Ireland26499 Posts
Way I personally see it, live StarCraft’s main attraction is in competitive fairness, and competitive level. The best players, playing the best Starcraft possible, in even conditions.
Then to that mix, the added hype that audiences bring to the table. Which is a big plus too.
Look I‘ve just finished checking some VoDs, there was certainly some stellar Starcraft played and great series. When it was good it was excellent stuff.
But so too was there at the likes of the online Dhacks in the Covid era, ASUS Rog.
I’ll just not count Serral, let’s assume he wouldn’t have played either. You’re missing the guy who carried Protoss for 2 years, the bloke duking it out with Maru for that G5L and Terran’s most recent GSL champion.
Now on to the audience part. I’m not sure we’re getting the numbers to get that bonus and boost of hype. To a degree, for a long time I’ve felt production never really feeds that back to the game anyway. The old MLGs, Blizzcons etc where you can actually hear the audience going nuts one hundred percent it adds to the atmosphere.
For a home viewer, if not for the occasional shot you could have told me there was no audience and I would have believed it.
The competitive fairness box is ticked, but you’re undoubtedly losing depth in the quality of field. The audience isn’t really adding much, although I’m sure they enjoyed being present.
I’m not against the return offline tournaments but what’s the value being added that isn’t being lost elsewhere, currently?
HSC was always its own thing with a unique atmosphere, not the most cutthroat tournament in the world. It makes 100% sense for that to be offline.
Katowice is the big World Championship. It’s never a sure thing but Koreans with pending military service tend to get visas. It’s got a bigger prize pot, so players are more likely to back themselves to at least cover their travel via the open brackets. It’s the culmination of a season’s Starcraft stories and journies rather than just a singular tournament, so in theory is a bigger draw for fans too.
Idk the answers, it’s a balancing act. I think currently moving more tournaments online and keeping Katowice offline would make sense.
It’s big enough in both prize pool and prestige to perhaps swallow the problems the globe is currently having in a way these smaller circuit events just can’t.
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EPT
