On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
I am not an expert on high level PvZ but Harstem, who arguably has some insights on this, did a replay of the series here: .
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
maybe it's time to admit that this Serral dude is so fucking good enjoy your P/T v P/T s on ladder as there are practically no zergs left to pick up on anything
On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa, and there have been 2 PvP finals. I promise you, Zerg knew about making lots of queens in that time.
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa
Trap* not "Protoss" He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament For Zerg there have been 5 differents players who won a premier in the last few years
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa
Trap* not "Protoss" He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament For Zerg there have been 5 differents players who won a premier in the last few years
I get the point, but it's not literally true, as Neeb also won two.
Trap beat Zoun, another protoss, in two of those finals. Zest also made the finals of IEM (where he gave, to be blunt, a terrible performance that was read like a book). And the other title contender Protoss, Stats, retired just before the latest patch got rolling.
Overall it hardly paints a picture of Protoss struggling at the highest level. Trap is doing a lot better than other Protoss, but other Protoss (Zoun, Parting and Zest) are still reaching finals and semis in the big KR / International tournaments.
Funny thing that Serral changed his control groups radically and now they resemble Reynor's ones: 1-all hatcheries, 2-early scout/army, 3-queens early, 4 - army and etc. Before he has all hatcheries on "3". Did he find imba control groups like Reynor did?
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa
Trap* not "Protoss" He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament For Zerg there have been 5 differents players who won a premier in the last few years
I get the point, but it's not literally true, as Neeb also won two.
Trap beat Zoun, another protoss, in two of those finals. Zest also made the finals of IEM (where he gave, to be blunt, a terrible performance that was read like a book). And the other title contender Protoss, Stats, retired just before the latest patch got rolling.
Overall it hardly paints a picture of Protoss struggling at the highest level. Trap is doing a lot better than other Protoss, but other Protoss (Zoun, Parting and Zest) are still reaching finals and semis in the big KR / International tournaments.
A lot of what you write has some merrit to it. Pretending that Neebs wins have any meaning, if you re looking at the very top of SC2 is quite questionable though. This makes it look like you just try to tell a story and are looking for everything, that fits your narrative here.
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa
Trap* not "Protoss" He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament For Zerg there have been 5 differents players who won a premier in the last few years
I get the point, but it's not literally true, as Neeb also won two.
Trap beat Zoun, another protoss, in two of those finals. Zest also made the finals of IEM (where he gave, to be blunt, a terrible performance that was read like a book). And the other title contender Protoss, Stats, retired just before the latest patch got rolling.
Overall it hardly paints a picture of Protoss struggling at the highest level. Trap is doing a lot better than other Protoss, but other Protoss (Zoun, Parting and Zest) are still reaching finals and semis in the big KR / International tournaments.
A lot of what you write has some merrit to it. Pretending that Neebs wins have any meaning, if you re looking at the very top of SC2 is quite questionable though. This makes it look like you just try to tell a story and are looking for everything, that fits your narrative here.
I only mentioned Neeb's wins because the person I was replying to said "He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament". Which is false (unless litteraly means something other than `literally' )
Hence the wording of my response, that I do get the point but that it's not literally true.
And it's not hard to tell the story that Protoss is doing fine at the highest level, because they have literally had as many premier wins as the other two races combined (partly because RIP Terran to be fair). What other story could you possibly support given that information??
On September 16 2021 18:58 Bomzj wrote: Funny thing that Serral changed his control groups radically and now they resemble Reynor's ones: 1-all hatcheries, 2-early scout/army, 3-queens early, 4 - army and etc. Before he has all hatcheries on "3". Did he find imba control groups like Reynor did?
I’m intrigued as to why he made those changes, maybe inject cycles? I just personally like to have army and production as discrete sides of my hotkeys, so up to a point everything left of a key = army and everything right = production.
Whatever the reason it seems rather effective. Serral strikes me as the kind to make little tweaks here and there that pay off through time, so he must have some reason.
He doesn’t strike me as someone who blindly copies something if he doesn’t think there’s a sound reason that it’s a better way to go.
Nice catch that he changed control groups, I imagine that's a huuuge deal for players. He probably took quite a while to get used to it, but it seemed to work well for him this tournament.
On September 17 2021 00:59 HolydaKing wrote: Nice catch that he changed control groups, I imagine that's a huuuge deal for players. He probably took quite a while to get used to it, but it seemed to work well for him this tournament.
Reminds me of me changing my crosshair in CSGO to that of S1mple :D Now I feel invincible.
Reynor changing the control group meta... that kid can do it all
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa
Trap* not "Protoss" He's litteraly the only Protoss who manage to win premier tournament For Zerg there have been 5 differents players who won a premier in the last few years
Well, looking at Asus ROG Qualifiers certainly makes me wonder of the imba dominance of z over p...
On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
maybe it's time to admit that this Serral dude is so fucking good enjoy your P/T v P/T s on ladder as there are practically no zergs left to pick up on anything
Serral is really good but he is not a god tier above his piers, he performs like a god in one matchup specificly and that is ZVP, so yeah sorry but you make no valid point to me.
On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
Since the last patch Protoss has won more premier finals against Zerg than vice-versa, and there have been 2 PvP finals. I promise you, Zerg knew about making lots of queens in that time.
Hmm is this true? The only Protoss to win a tournaments is Trap and you must be talking about 2021 because 2020 was a even worse time for protoss.
In 2021 so far Trap won 3 BO7 vs zergs and he won them all 4-3, one of them vs Solar in a tournament I would not put as a premier tournament, and they were extremely close, the last two finals he got destroyed by Zergs Dark and Serral 4-1 and 4-0.
Reynor beat Zest 4-2 in 2021 in the IEM Katowice world finals ( biggest tournament we have).
So you have bad data, but that does not even matter because the results over the entire lifespan of sc2 and this latest patch has been zerg domination over protoss at the highest levels of play, Protoss will win a tournament every now and then but it remains T and Z dominated. Especially the major premier tournaments with the most prestige.
But its just sad to see the most skilled player in sc2 atm can not get consistent results because of the race he plays. Trap in my opinion is the best player in the world easily.
Protoss has yet to win one of the major premier tournaments for years now, they only win smaller premier tournaments.
Remember this post when you will see Zerg dominate in the near future unless Maru steps up it will be Zerg domination from here on out. The only way Protoss will do well I think is if Protosses can dodge enough Zergs and Terran eliminates them and we get PVTs.
As for Queens, you are most likely talking about queen walks , Serral uses queens more defensively to easily get to a good spot in any ZVP because he can hold anything even with bad late scouting. Other Zergs have used them for all inns which has sometimes cost them games because they mess up the attack. This will sound arrogant but I don't think you have the game understanding to see what I see. To understand balance you must put yourself in the position of the players understand the matchup and the thought process and understand each race and their capabilities. I don't make these opinions based on what most of you people base balance on, you just feel like it looks OP and make a statement.
I can tell you the reason Serral is so consistent in ZVP, Serral is good at scouting vs Protoss in general, he is very good at reading Protoss builds. But a lot of his games he scouts things to late, does not scout at all or scout gets shut down.
I have seen him caught with his pants down by super commited 3 base allinns from protoss which are more 2 base tbh.
Queens buy him the time he needs to get out enough units to hold, while he has overdroned heavily but because queens cost no larvae it is not a problem.
Queens are OP because he does not have to respect P builds and not be greedy he can be greedy and hold any all inn with minimal scouting.
This is why queens are OP and this is why Serral is so dominant in the matchup. He knows the power of defensive queens and constant scouting.
On September 15 2021 15:15 spenzzer wrote: This round of 8 wasn't too entertaining imo. Just pure dominance. If Parting wouldn't have been too Stalker for Clem it could have been interesting. But Trap also looked pretty sloppy against Serrall. Maybe he was simply tired. They really should consider moving the start time foward so koreans don't always have to play in the middle of the night.
He looked sloppy? Serral knows how to scout and he knows the power of queens, all serral does is make queens while droning, even if he spots a protoss pressure build super late he still has time to respond because of the insane amount of queens he gets while not having to sacrifice econemy. I can tell you all how this is gonna end down the line, its gonna be like it was with swarm host or brood lord infestor, eventually it gets nerfed and Zergs are gonna have the same response they did after those nerfs, "yeah haha it was kinda broken".
Can ESL hire a balance guy that knows what his doing and make him put some pressure on SC2 balance team ? would be nice cuss this mass queen shit is getting boring a f
During the cast he mentions several times what - in his view - is sloppy play from Trap.
While I'm sure his inputs are very valuable but I'm confident in my own opinion that mass queen is to strong in both ZvT and ZvP, but mainly in ZVP because the unit is good vs absolutely everything and on top of that it gives Zerg safety while being greedy. I will promise you if queens are not patched other zergs will pick up on serrals ZVP and the winrates at high level will be so poor for Protoss the change will come but by then zergs have already won way to many tournaments because of this.It's just my opinion I respect yours.
maybe it's time to admit that this Serral dude is so fucking good enjoy your P/T v P/T s on ladder as there are practically no zergs left to pick up on anything
Serral is really good but he is not a god tier above his piers, he performs like a god in one matchup specificly and that is ZVP, so yeah sorry but you make no valid point to me.
Maybe not a tier above but he’s one of the top Zergs in all three matchups.
His vZ isn’t untouchable like in 2018 but he’s still up there and his vT is bloody excellent too. It’s only really Maru and Clem for the last period that give him consistent beatings there.
EPT
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