• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 21:48
CEST 03:48
KST 10:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO16 Preview: Rogue, Zoun, INnoVation, Dark11[ASL11] Ro24 Preview Pt 3:Contenders and Streamers10WTL 2021 Summer - Week 2 Recap and Week 3 Preview9Code S RO16 Preview: Maru, Solar, Cure, Dream10Code S RO16 Preview: TY, Bunny, Hurricane, DRG8
Community News
Code S RO16: Rogue and INno advance to the RO81ByuN to begin wrist treatment9New Worlds Map Contest: ALL SUBMISSIONS24Code S RO16: Maru & Dream advance to RO819BSL12 - Ladder Tournaments [$600 + 3x Pro Seeds]9
StarCraft 2
General
ESL Open Week #65 - Zest, Clem, MaxPax win Code S RO16: Rogue and INno advance to the RO8 ByuN to begin wrist treatment [GSL] Music List GSL Code A - DRG, Cure, Hurricane advance to Code S, ByuN's wrist issues flare up again
Tourneys
The Siege Perilous - $5,000 in top-end hardware! [GSL 2021] Code S - Group C [EPT 2021-22] ESL Open Cups Ignition - ITaX Pro Circuit 6 $7,000 WardiTV Spring Championship 2021
Strategy
Practice Partner Thread Season 1 - 2018 Simple Questions Simple Answers How to Break the F2 Hotkey Addiction How to Defeat Protoss - Part 1: Powering
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Routavaara [M] (2) Tropical Sacrifice [M] (4)Nautilus [UMS] Micro Match
External Content
Mutation # 260 Fright night Mutation # 259 Breath Of Destruction Mutation # 258 Wheel of Misfortune - Lock & Load Drogos Recap of 2020
Brood War
General
[ShowMatch] Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer Casper v Eonzerg: April 17 @ 21:00 CET/15:00 EDT Scan & Nyoken to community cast ASL [ASL11] Ro24 Preview Pt 3:Contenders and Streamers [StarCastTV] Update Thread
Tourneys
[ASL11] Ro24 Group F Small VOD Thread 2.0 New Worlds Map Contest: ALL SUBMISSIONS BSL12 - Russia Puts in Money
Strategy
Sorry's TvP lategame Ghost strategies? Fog of War Noises Simple Questions, Simple Answers pvz FE, goons opening
Other Games
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments [HotS] CCL Season 2: ONYX [HotS] The Road to Paris QQ/Rage Thread. Simple Questions, Simple Answers
General Games
Path of Exile Sid Meier's Civilization VI [PC, macOS, Stadia] Humankind Cyberpunk 2077 The PlayStation 5
TL Mafia
[M][N] Mafia Mafia: Mafia Edition TL Mafia Community Thread Active List of Mafia Games [M][T] Poker Mafia
Hearthstone
Is Hearthstone Gambling?
LoL General
LoL Tournaments
LoL Strategy
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread NASA and the Private Sector The Games Industry And ATVI Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The Scarlett Fan Club The TY Fan Club Stats Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Hip Hop / Rap Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
NBA General Discussion 2020 - 2021 Football Thread Formula1 2019 2020 NFL and College Football Corona Season TL Golf Thread
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers Help! i need a low profile keyboard!!!
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts The Automated Ban List Ask TL Staff Anything
Blogs
Magic the Gathering Cu…
TheRealNanMan
Whale Watching at Hervey Bay i…
Tak3r
To Be a Vtuber
Zambrah
Help me win a vacation by watc…
Chosi
Golf Battle Report (Persona…
FlaShFTW
10 later years finally mast…
Juliette
Homemade gaujas/ chiroti…
mymomspride
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 780 users

The Denver vs Soul Grudgematch and the future of community…

Forum Index > SC2 General
4 CommentsPost a Reply

The Denver vs Soul Grudgematch and the future of community content

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
April 3rd, 2021 16:07 GMT

Get Mad, It's Good For You: The Denver vs souL Grudgematch and the Future of Community Content

by XiaoXiaoo

After the curtain fell on another memorable StayAt HomeStory Cup, we were again left with the familiar feeling of yearning for more. There’s just something special about watching RotterdaM and Lowko trying to cast over the sound of fire alarms in HeRoMaRinE’s pizza kitchen while TaKe looks at the camera in despairing regret at his half shaved head. But this fun, irreverent style is not actually limited to HSC. A few months prior, progamers and fans alike got together to put forth a showmatch that reminded us we don’t need to wait on TakeTV for this brand of entertainment— the community can come together and make their own fun! TaKe has shown us how fun StarCraft events can be, and we the community should embrace it to fill the void between HSCs.

If we look at the showmatch in question, what started out as a bit of heated banter between souL and Denver quickly escalated to a best-of-9 grudge match organized by Lambo. Progamers like Serral, Reynor, Clem and others showed their support by taking a reprieve from their IEM preparation to partake in the drama and cast the games. Fans showed their support by boosting the prize pool to the point where the winner may as well have been an IEM global finalist. Manner mules were had, offensive “?”s were thrown left and right, Serral taught us how to pronounce “Walukiewicz,” and above all, everyone had a blast.

So what makes this grudge match so special? Historically, StarCraft fans hold pros to an exceptionally high degree of professionalism, to the point where even leaving a game without “gg”ing made waves across Twitch chat and Reddit. But in this case, entertainment catalyzed by bad-manner between two players was actually supported by both pros and fans. While we normally associate bad-manner with toxicity, this event was wholesome through and through. Not only that, it provided a rare HomeStory-like feel, without actually being a part of HSC! So what made this showmatch so well received? Does this suggest a new direction for StarCraft II in a post-Blizzard world?

The Showmatch

As it turns out, this is not the first time that souL and Denver have clashed over grudges held against one another. A similar incident occurred 2 years ago, when souL had a particularly “exciting” win over Denver in a ladder game involving 92 nukes in 50 minutes. Unfortunately for Denver, this was one of the games that you wish could be wiped from existence and never spoken of again. Even more unfortunately for Denver, souL reportedly sent this replay to a plethora of peers, including MarineLorD, Harstem, Maynarde and others, some of whom uploaded a cast of the game to YouTube. In that incident, Denver was the one who had a point to make, and a best-of-7 grudge match ensued (VODs of the original grudge match: part 1, part 2).

Fast forward to 2021, it turns out the grudge between souL and Denver was still not settled. During a routine day of ladder games, souL lost two games in a row to Denver which souL attributed to “stupid strats” and “dumb runbys”. This apparently tilted souL enough to cancel his plans for the day and attempt to snipe Denver for a rematch. Denver, cheeky as ever, used the Battle.net broadcast function to publicly poke fun at souL, while refusing to give souL the opportunity to redeem himself. Other pros quickly caught wind of the broadcasts, and began teasing the duo with broadcasts of their own. It was only a matter of time before another grudge match arose, except this time it was souL who had something to prove.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

Come time for the actual showmatch, the match was no longer only about souL and Denver. On the English stream hosted by Lambo, Serral staked his confidence in his trusty Terran training partner while educating the masses on the proper pronunciation of Piotr Walukiewicz, Reynor debated whether the games look more like his brother’s or his dad’s, while Harstem indulged in the 3 Zerg casters trying to make sense of the chaos. Meanwhile, on MarineLorD's stream, his Francophone compatriots showed their unity and came together to cheer on their fellow Frenchman, with Clem, PtitDrogo and Koka joining the cast.

Similar to the traditions of HomeStory Cup, the match focused less on the gameplay itself, and more on the casual atmosphere of casters and players having a good time. While there was certainly high level gameplay to be had, the highlight of the match was definitely the journey rather than the scoreline. That said, the scoreline was still certainly important to Denver and souL; not only was there pride on the line, but almost €800 to boot. This surpassed the sum that the 33rd-36th place finishers at IEM Katowice 2021 would receive ($500), and was roughly equal to the 29th-32nd place winnings ($1000). Of course, this was far too much money for any one person to walk away with, so the players uniformly agreed on what they believed to be a fair split: 99:1.

Without going too deep with the gameplay analysis, let’s take a look at the stats that actually matter:

  • souL’s manner mules: 2
  • souL’s manner “XD”: 1
  • Denver’s maner hatch: 1
  • Denver’s /dance: 1
  • Denver’s manner “?”: 4
  • Denver’s manner “XD”: 1
  • Denver bonus for BM into loss: 2

Final score: souL 5 : 3 Denver! Regardless of what the score screens may say, Denver provided more of what we fans came for—spicy flair backed by spicy plays, so he’s the victor in our hearts.

In any case, the most important thing is that the grudge was settled and everyone had many good laughs. Both players departed on good terms, although from the way things went it’s hard to imagine the two were anything but friends.




Grudge Matches and SC2

The souL vs Denver grudge match success is not just indicative that grudge matches are fun to watch. It’s actually symbolic of a bigger shift within the StarCraft II scene in the last few years from a centralized, professional scene to a more balanced scene that’s as driven by the community as it is by the sponsors. This momentum is unlikely to stop as community figures like Wardi grow while entities like Blizzard’s influences wane. Now is the time to ask ourselves, what kind of third-party content do we want to see more of? Do we want to focus on “professional”-style tournaments like TSL and ASUS ROG, or do we want to indulge in more free-spirited content?

StarCraft grudge matches in prior years had an odd place. If we think back to the era of KeSPA Proleague, it was quite unimaginable for grudge matches to take place within the scene. For starters, BM and personal interactions in general were heavily dampened by the draconian rules set by KeSPA. Remember when Stephano was almost DQ’d for typing “glhf” in the game? Players definitely had chances to show their personalities, but it’s become clear that they couldn’t be 100% genuine—just look at what Brood War streamers have gone on to do since leaving KeSPA.

Skip forward to 2021. Corporate sponsors are not as prevalent, but we’ve also seen insane growth in community figures and fan support. ESL Open Cups are casted by various community casters like Wardi, while fans like WhieShark single-handedly sponsor $5000 tournaments. As a result, players and casters have much more freedom to express themselves freely and casually without worrying about disqualifications. Heck, INnoVation showed up 2.5 hours late to his HomeStoryCup group stage match, and the main debate we had was whether he overslept or was playing league of legends.

And just as the community has grown in influence, so too have the players. While KeSPA-era players saw progaming as their one and only responsibility, pros in the modern era are interesting in their own ways outside of their pro career as well. Reynor is always a bag of fun when it comes to anything—playing, casting, interviewing, you name it. HeRoMaRinE runs one of the most consistent streams not just in StarCraft, but in twitch.tv as a whole. It doesn’t even really matter who’s involved in casual events like a grudge match, because everyone is such great friends with one another in the pro scene today that it’s bound to be a blast.

So are grudge matches the way to go as we prepare for the post-Blizzard world? Well… why not give it a try? As Covid-19 shuts down our major offline tournaments and forces them online, we’re seeing less and less stories outside of the scorelines. No more Taeja failing to pop the champagne bottle. No more teary-eyed soO hoisting his long awaited trophy. The results slowly mesh into numbers on Liquipedia instead of the grand stories they could be. Casual events like grudge matches fill this need that not all, but many fans have for more personal stories. They tell stories about the players, not just the games. They craft deeper narratives for rivalries between players, rather than their Aligulac ratings. And the viewers of the Denver vs souL showmatch have shown that we’re not above indulging in petty drama. Imagine if for all the smack talk Reynor gave to poor BabyMarine during HSC, someone actually set up a showmatch between the two, wouldn’t that be a fun time?

And this isn’t just about grudge matches either. Archon mode has shown to be extremely entertaining time and time and time again. Reynor already mentioned he used 1v4 Archon mode to practice for his match against Maru in IEM, why not show fans what that was like? We don’t even need to stick to 1v1 mode— Artosis recently hosted the Artosis Bad Map Free For All tournament, which is as hilarious as its title suggests. And why stop there? Let’s bring on another Harstem Rank Roulette tournament, maybe featuring pro replays instead! If the community is willing to embrace more casual events in addition to the major professional tournaments we’re used to, we may yet discover that StarCraft II offers more entertainment than simply 1v1 pro matches.





Writer: XiaoXiaoo
Editor: Wax
Images: Lambo

Facebook Twitter Reddit
TL+ Member
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
7762 Posts
April 03 2021 17:08 GMT
#2
Good stuff It's really something to see how much money and effort the community is putting in to StarCraft and yeah it's worth it to think about when it's better to do some weird grudge match / HSC / whatever setup instead of "just another" tournament. Surely TSL5 was appreciated so much because it had some wacky elements (and the incredible stylistic alignment of the games and the music). That said, these things imo work much better when they're in between the big, offline, prizepool-heavy tournaments played in front of live audiences. Please come back soon.

Thanks for the good work. I have really enjoyed the articles lately coming from the new writers lately, it's nice with some offbeat topics. Well, the more conventional articles too.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Cold-Blood
Profile Joined March 2010
United States175 Posts
April 03 2021 19:16 GMT
#3
Another perfect example of this was... the Whieshark Invitational! A 9 player tournament put on by Rotterdam, Coco, and Rotti's long-time stream supporter Whieshark. Not only was the money substantially decent, all put forth by one man/legend, but the way to obtain it was fun and creative. Prizes for best series and best game called on players to not only play their best, but also creatively.

I personally thought the best part of this tournament, which brought together 9 players who all were very familiar with each other, was their in-game banter AND especially their interaction with us on stream. During games while they weren't playing or the end voting period, at least 6-7 of the players involved were talking shit and having laughs in the stream chat and it just felt really special - and surprisingly easy to follow with 2.5-3k viewers.

If you'd like a taste, look up Soul v Marinelord game 3, the banter between these 2 in-game after a discovered build order which I won't spoil, was probably the most I have laughed during a high-level pro match in a very long time.

Also one last shoutout to Whieshark for putting up 5k of his own money to have 9 guys put on some great games.
Forever and Always #1 YellOw fan.
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany1959 Posts
April 03 2021 20:53 GMT
#4
The good thing for SC2 (and also BW) is, that the comunity is much older than for the average e Sport.
That means, there are a lot of fans, that actually have money, they can put Back into the scene.
I personally think we need a healthy Mix of more serious tournament and stuff like this.
Another great Individual is Irvnasty btw. He sponsored multiple Wardi events allready, totalling at least 10k$ I belive.
Also don t forget that Olimoleague is completly Comunity funded as well. The love for this game is strong, no matter what Blizzard is doing.
MaxPax | Reynor | Clem
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom1981 Posts
April 05 2021 11:48 GMT
#5
HuK and Idra as the greatest sc2 grudge?
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ViBE574
PiGStarcraft518
NeuroSwarm 212
Forgg! 178
RuFF_SC2 147
NoRegreT_ 124
kaitlyn63
CosmosSc2 58
PiLiPiLi 20
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis1932
Pusan 181
Shinee 45
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
fl0m3359
adren_tv320
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2696
C9.Mang01959
Other Games
summit1g52451
shahzam4098
Day[9].tv3786
WinterStarcraft550
Trikslyr165
Hui .147
StaRiX111
ZombieGrub63
missharvey53
Maynarde48
Temp026
Organizations
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO1872
Other Games
BasetradeTV495
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO B381
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv173
OGamingTV SC2 112
Blizzard YouTube
[ Show 24 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• SkrOs 146
• DisReSpeCTsc2 90
• EnkiAlexander 24
• Adnapsc2 3
• Archon96 2
• nightgamer69 1
• IndyKCrew
• AlphaB_SC2
• Migwel
• Matiz_pl
• Laughngamez YouTube
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• Kozan
• Gussbus
• gravity620
• intothetv
• aXEnki
• AweesomeSauce
• Alpha X_
• Genesis Gaming
SC2: Legacy of the Void
• KarlJayG
StarCraft: Brood War
• sscaitournament5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
Other Games
• TSM TheOddOne851
Upcoming Events
OSC
6h 12m
Alpha Pro Series
7h 12m
Patience vs Solar
KCM Race Survival
8h 12m
WardiTV Spring Champion…
9h 12m
Zoun vs Dream
Zoun vs Solar
ByuN vs DongRaeGu
ByuN vs Dream
Cure vs Solar
Cure vs Dream
Solar vs Dream
Solar vs DongRaeGu
CreightonOlsen Tournament
14h 12m
ThermyCup
15h 12m
OSC
16h 12m
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
21h 12m
eXoN event
23h 12m
GSL Code S
1d 7h
Trap vs Armani
sOs vs Zest
[ Show More ]
KCM Ladies Race Survival
1d 8h
Team GP event
1d 9h
IntoTheAlphaX Pro Circuit
1d 11h
Innovation vs RagnaroK
Cure vs Patience
CreightonOlsen Tournament
1d 14h
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d 14h
OSC
1d 15h
Online Event
2 days
CreightonOlsen Tournament
2 days
BSL 2v2 Showmatch
2 days
MadiNho vs Scan
KenZy vs BishOp
Best of the Best Tour
2 days
TerrOr vs trutaCz
Bonyth vs kogeT
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
3 days
Grand Platypus Open
3 days
CreightonOlsen Tournament
3 days
BSL 2v2 Tournament
3 days
BW Jeez Weekly
3 days
Theleo-ua Showmatch Ser…
3 days
eOnzErG vs Casper
Alpha X Junior Champion…
3 days
Best of the Best Tour
3 days
DragOn vs TerrOr
Cross vs OyAji
Cross vs trutaCz
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
4 days
EPT Open Cups
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
BeAsT Cup
4 days
CreightonOlsen Tournament
4 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
4 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Bunny vs TBD
IntoTheAlphaX Pro Circuit
5 days
ByuN vs Zest
DongRaeGu vs Zoun
EPT Open Cups
5 days
EPT Open Cups
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
OlimoLeague
6 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
6 days
ByuN vs Solar
ByuN vs Trap
ByuN vs Zest
Zoun vs Cure
Zoun vs DongRaeGu
Trap vs Zest
Solar vs Zest
Solar vs Trap
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL11 GosuLeague
2021 GSL S1: Code A
Nexus Forces Tour. Q2
ESL Pro League Season 13

Ongoing

Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer
ASL Season 11
Bombastic StarLeague 12
Russian Hasu League 2021
Best of the Best Tour
KCM Race Survival 2021 Season 1
Deathfate Pro League 1
WTL 2021 Summer
2021 GSL S1: Code S
WardiTV Spring Championship 2021
Masters Clash Champ. 2021
Nexus Forces Tour.
NGS Storm Division S2
Spring Sweet Spring #1
BLAST Premier Spring Showd.
ESEA S36 - NA Premier
ESEA S36 - EU Premier
ESEA S36 - AU Premier

Upcoming

BSL12 GosuLeague
theleo_ua showmatch 3
BW Jeez Weekly 109
BW Jeez Weekly 108
theleo_ua showmatch 2
BW Jeez Weekly 107
Ultimate Battle: Soma vs JyJ
DH Masters Summer: Finals
2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2
DHM Summer: China
DHM Summer: NA
DHM Summer: Oceania
DHM Summer: Asia
DHM Summer: LatAm
DHM Summer: Europe
Community Clash League S2
CCL Season 2 Icebreaker
ESL One Cologne 2021
BLAST Premier Spring Finals
IEM Summer 2021
cs_summit 8
Flashpoint Season 3
DH Masters Spring 2021
Perfect World League S1
Funspark ULTI 2020
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2021 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.