• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:16
CEST 07:16
KST 14:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension1Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China11
StarCraft 2
General
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
$5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL [Guide] MyStarcraft BW General Discussion [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 593 users

The Denver vs Soul Grudgematch and the future of community…

Forum Index > SC2 General
12 CommentsPost a Reply

The Denver vs Soul Grudgematch and the future of community content

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
April 3rd, 2021 16:07 GMT

Get Mad, It's Good For You: The Denver vs souL Grudgematch and the Future of Community Content

by XiaoXiaoo

After the curtain fell on another memorable StayAt HomeStory Cup, we were again left with the familiar feeling of yearning for more. There’s just something special about watching RotterdaM and Lowko trying to cast over the sound of fire alarms in HeRoMaRinE’s pizza kitchen while TaKe looks at the camera in despairing regret at his half shaved head. But this fun, irreverent style is not actually limited to HSC. A few months prior, progamers and fans alike got together to put forth a showmatch that reminded us we don’t need to wait on TakeTV for this brand of entertainment— the community can come together and make their own fun! TaKe has shown us how fun StarCraft events can be, and we the community should embrace it to fill the void between HSCs.

If we look at the showmatch in question, what started out as a bit of heated banter between souL and Denver quickly escalated to a best-of-9 grudge match organized by Lambo. Progamers like Serral, Reynor, Clem and others showed their support by taking a reprieve from their IEM preparation to partake in the drama and cast the games. Fans showed their support by boosting the prize pool to the point where the winner may as well have been an IEM global finalist. Manner mules were had, offensive “?”s were thrown left and right, Serral taught us how to pronounce “Walukiewicz,” and above all, everyone had a blast.

So what makes this grudge match so special? Historically, StarCraft fans hold pros to an exceptionally high degree of professionalism, to the point where even leaving a game without “gg”ing made waves across Twitch chat and Reddit. But in this case, entertainment catalyzed by bad-manner between two players was actually supported by both pros and fans. While we normally associate bad-manner with toxicity, this event was wholesome through and through. Not only that, it provided a rare HomeStory-like feel, without actually being a part of HSC! So what made this showmatch so well received? Does this suggest a new direction for StarCraft II in a post-Blizzard world?

The Showmatch

As it turns out, this is not the first time that souL and Denver have clashed over grudges held against one another. A similar incident occurred 2 years ago, when souL had a particularly “exciting” win over Denver in a ladder game involving 92 nukes in 50 minutes. Unfortunately for Denver, this was one of the games that you wish could be wiped from existence and never spoken of again. Even more unfortunately for Denver, souL reportedly sent this replay to a plethora of peers, including MarineLorD, Harstem, Maynarde and others, some of whom uploaded a cast of the game to YouTube. In that incident, Denver was the one who had a point to make, and a best-of-7 grudge match ensued (VODs of the original grudge match: part 1, part 2).

Fast forward to 2021, it turns out the grudge between souL and Denver was still not settled. During a routine day of ladder games, souL lost two games in a row to Denver which souL attributed to “stupid strats” and “dumb runbys”. This apparently tilted souL enough to cancel his plans for the day and attempt to snipe Denver for a rematch. Denver, cheeky as ever, used the Battle.net broadcast function to publicly poke fun at souL, while refusing to give souL the opportunity to redeem himself. Other pros quickly caught wind of the broadcasts, and began teasing the duo with broadcasts of their own. It was only a matter of time before another grudge match arose, except this time it was souL who had something to prove.

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

Come time for the actual showmatch, the match was no longer only about souL and Denver. On the English stream hosted by Lambo, Serral staked his confidence in his trusty Terran training partner while educating the masses on the proper pronunciation of Piotr Walukiewicz, Reynor debated whether the games look more like his brother’s or his dad’s, while Harstem indulged in the 3 Zerg casters trying to make sense of the chaos. Meanwhile, on MarineLorD's stream, his Francophone compatriots showed their unity and came together to cheer on their fellow Frenchman, with Clem, PtitDrogo and Koka joining the cast.

Similar to the traditions of HomeStory Cup, the match focused less on the gameplay itself, and more on the casual atmosphere of casters and players having a good time. While there was certainly high level gameplay to be had, the highlight of the match was definitely the journey rather than the scoreline. That said, the scoreline was still certainly important to Denver and souL; not only was there pride on the line, but almost €800 to boot. This surpassed the sum that the 33rd-36th place finishers at IEM Katowice 2021 would receive ($500), and was roughly equal to the 29th-32nd place winnings ($1000). Of course, this was far too much money for any one person to walk away with, so the players uniformly agreed on what they believed to be a fair split: 99:1.

Without going too deep with the gameplay analysis, let’s take a look at the stats that actually matter:

  • souL’s manner mules: 2
  • souL’s manner “XD”: 1
  • Denver’s maner hatch: 1
  • Denver’s /dance: 1
  • Denver’s manner “?”: 4
  • Denver’s manner “XD”: 1
  • Denver bonus for BM into loss: 2

Final score: souL 5 : 3 Denver! Regardless of what the score screens may say, Denver provided more of what we fans came for—spicy flair backed by spicy plays, so he’s the victor in our hearts.

In any case, the most important thing is that the grudge was settled and everyone had many good laughs. Both players departed on good terms, although from the way things went it’s hard to imagine the two were anything but friends.




Grudge Matches and SC2

The souL vs Denver grudge match success is not just indicative that grudge matches are fun to watch. It’s actually symbolic of a bigger shift within the StarCraft II scene in the last few years from a centralized, professional scene to a more balanced scene that’s as driven by the community as it is by the sponsors. This momentum is unlikely to stop as community figures like Wardi grow while entities like Blizzard’s influences wane. Now is the time to ask ourselves, what kind of third-party content do we want to see more of? Do we want to focus on “professional”-style tournaments like TSL and ASUS ROG, or do we want to indulge in more free-spirited content?

StarCraft grudge matches in prior years had an odd place. If we think back to the era of KeSPA Proleague, it was quite unimaginable for grudge matches to take place within the scene. For starters, BM and personal interactions in general were heavily dampened by the draconian rules set by KeSPA. Remember when Stephano was almost DQ’d for typing “glhf” in the game? Players definitely had chances to show their personalities, but it’s become clear that they couldn’t be 100% genuine—just look at what Brood War streamers have gone on to do since leaving KeSPA.

Skip forward to 2021. Corporate sponsors are not as prevalent, but we’ve also seen insane growth in community figures and fan support. ESL Open Cups are casted by various community casters like Wardi, while fans like WhieShark single-handedly sponsor $5000 tournaments. As a result, players and casters have much more freedom to express themselves freely and casually without worrying about disqualifications. Heck, INnoVation showed up 2.5 hours late to his HomeStoryCup group stage match, and the main debate we had was whether he overslept or was playing league of legends.

And just as the community has grown in influence, so too have the players. While KeSPA-era players saw progaming as their one and only responsibility, pros in the modern era are interesting in their own ways outside of their pro career as well. Reynor is always a bag of fun when it comes to anything—playing, casting, interviewing, you name it. HeRoMaRinE runs one of the most consistent streams not just in StarCraft, but in twitch.tv as a whole. It doesn’t even really matter who’s involved in casual events like a grudge match, because everyone is such great friends with one another in the pro scene today that it’s bound to be a blast.

So are grudge matches the way to go as we prepare for the post-Blizzard world? Well… why not give it a try? As Covid-19 shuts down our major offline tournaments and forces them online, we’re seeing less and less stories outside of the scorelines. No more Taeja failing to pop the champagne bottle. No more teary-eyed soO hoisting his long awaited trophy. The results slowly mesh into numbers on Liquipedia instead of the grand stories they could be. Casual events like grudge matches fill this need that not all, but many fans have for more personal stories. They tell stories about the players, not just the games. They craft deeper narratives for rivalries between players, rather than their Aligulac ratings. And the viewers of the Denver vs souL showmatch have shown that we’re not above indulging in petty drama. Imagine if for all the smack talk Reynor gave to poor BabyMarine during HSC, someone actually set up a showmatch between the two, wouldn’t that be a fun time?

And this isn’t just about grudge matches either. Archon mode has shown to be extremely entertaining time and time and time again. Reynor already mentioned he used 1v4 Archon mode to practice for his match against Maru in IEM, why not show fans what that was like? We don’t even need to stick to 1v1 mode— Artosis recently hosted the Artosis Bad Map Free For All tournament, which is as hilarious as its title suggests. And why stop there? Let’s bring on another Harstem Rank Roulette tournament, maybe featuring pro replays instead! If the community is willing to embrace more casual events in addition to the major professional tournaments we’re used to, we may yet discover that StarCraft II offers more entertainment than simply 1v1 pro matches.





Writer: XiaoXiaoo
Editor: Wax
Images: Lambo

Facebook Twitter Reddit
TL+ Member
sneakyfox
Profile Joined January 2017
8216 Posts
April 03 2021 17:08 GMT
#2
Good stuff It's really something to see how much money and effort the community is putting in to StarCraft and yeah it's worth it to think about when it's better to do some weird grudge match / HSC / whatever setup instead of "just another" tournament. Surely TSL5 was appreciated so much because it had some wacky elements (and the incredible stylistic alignment of the games and the music). That said, these things imo work much better when they're in between the big, offline, prizepool-heavy tournaments played in front of live audiences. Please come back soon.

Thanks for the good work. I have really enjoyed the articles lately coming from the new writers lately, it's nice with some offbeat topics. Well, the more conventional articles too.
"I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG
Cold-Blood
Profile Joined March 2010
United States200 Posts
April 03 2021 19:16 GMT
#3
Another perfect example of this was... the Whieshark Invitational! A 9 player tournament put on by Rotterdam, Coco, and Rotti's long-time stream supporter Whieshark. Not only was the money substantially decent, all put forth by one man/legend, but the way to obtain it was fun and creative. Prizes for best series and best game called on players to not only play their best, but also creatively.

I personally thought the best part of this tournament, which brought together 9 players who all were very familiar with each other, was their in-game banter AND especially their interaction with us on stream. During games while they weren't playing or the end voting period, at least 6-7 of the players involved were talking shit and having laughs in the stream chat and it just felt really special - and surprisingly easy to follow with 2.5-3k viewers.

If you'd like a taste, look up Soul v Marinelord game 3, the banter between these 2 in-game after a discovered build order which I won't spoil, was probably the most I have laughed during a high-level pro match in a very long time.

Also one last shoutout to Whieshark for putting up 5k of his own money to have 9 guys put on some great games.
Forever and Always #1 YellOw fan.
dbRic1203
Profile Joined July 2019
Germany2655 Posts
April 03 2021 20:53 GMT
#4
The good thing for SC2 (and also BW) is, that the comunity is much older than for the average e Sport.
That means, there are a lot of fans, that actually have money, they can put Back into the scene.
I personally think we need a healthy Mix of more serious tournament and stuff like this.
Another great Individual is Irvnasty btw. He sponsored multiple Wardi events allready, totalling at least 10k$ I belive.
Also don t forget that Olimoleague is completly Comunity funded as well. The love for this game is strong, no matter what Blizzard is doing.
MaxPax
Edpayasugo
Profile Joined April 2013
United Kingdom2214 Posts
April 05 2021 11:48 GMT
#5
HuK and Idra as the greatest sc2 grudge?
FlaSh MMA INnoVation FanTaSy MKP TY Ryung | soO Dark Rogue | HuK PartinG Stork State
djack0666
Profile Joined March 2011
Belarus219 Posts
April 15 2021 02:45 GMT
#6
HuK and Idra as the greatest sc2 grudge?


for f....iing sure, bro.
"... of wolf and man!"
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6900 Posts
April 15 2021 08:10 GMT
#7
Why did I completely miss this?

Great article. Will watch now
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
smith nichael
Profile Joined April 2021
1 Post
April 27 2021 09:08 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
xiaoliu
Profile Joined July 2021
1 Post
July 26 2021 01:32 GMT
#9
--- Nuked ---
ujjghjkg
Profile Joined March 2023
3 Posts
March 07 2023 12:02 GMT
#10
--- Nuked ---
ujjghjkg
Profile Joined March 2023
3 Posts
March 07 2023 12:03 GMT
#11
--- Nuked ---
ujjghjkg
Profile Joined March 2023
3 Posts
March 07 2023 12:04 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
311 Posts
March 07 2023 16:51 GMT
#13
Guys archon is amazing.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 45m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 260
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 268
EffOrt 233
PianO 229
Free 156
Mind 58
Noble 29
Bale 11
Icarus 6
Dota 2
monkeys_forever704
League of Legends
JimRising 846
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1054
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox749
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor101
Other Games
summit1g15680
shahzam806
WinterStarcraft500
ViBE210
NeuroSwarm80
RuFF_SC261
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4860
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH328
• davetesta31
• practicex 30
• OhrlRock 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush2431
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
5h 45m
Replay Cast
1d 4h
WardiTV European League
1d 10h
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
1d 18h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.