On January 13 2021 03:08 coogerdark wrote: I hope he comes back in good form, but as far as lingering resentment toward him as he's coming back goes, it wasn't like he quietly left the SC2 scene for OW. As far as I recall, there were a fair amount of parting shots from him at SC2 as a game while he was heading out the door.
OTOH it would be great to have a good Protoss winning something outside the Korea. And unless HuK or NaNiwa find their lost mojo and fully properly return(which is unlikely), Lilbow has the biggest chance. He was really good back then.
(OK, maybe Neeb can find his 2016 form again, which would be great)
Edit> Like c'mon, it happened 5 years ago, let it go. Also let Let It Go go!
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Someone that was "good" because of region lock and that everybody suck on like he was going to be the next great foreigner but had absolutly no chance of beating Koreans.
He won one WCS and placed a few time second i believe
Dude that is harsh! He won quite a few matches vs Korean opposition like JD, TY, ForGG, Rain, ..
.
Hmm, nope, didn't forget anyone. Like I get why people hype him, but do you really expect Showtime to win anything important? Since his 2016 WCS victory he didn't win any premier tournament. Don't get me wrong, he's good at winning weeklies and even some qualifiers. But once the tournament starts he somehow doesn't deliver for whatever reason. I would love to be surprised though, because I can see the possibility. Like my heat says yes, but brain says nope.
On January 13 2021 03:08 coogerdark wrote: I hope he comes back in good form, but as far as lingering resentment toward him as he's coming back goes, it wasn't like he quietly left the SC2 scene for OW. As far as I recall, there were a fair amount of parting shots from him at SC2 as a game while he was heading out the door.
OTOH it would be great to have a good Protoss winning something outside the Korea. And unless HuK or NaNiwa find their lost mojo and fully properly return(which is unlikely), Lilbow has the biggest chance. He was really good back then.
(OK, maybe Neeb can find his 2016 form again, which would be great)
Edit> Like c'mon, it happened 5 years ago, let it go. Also let Let It Go go!
You forgot a Protoss! I give you a tip:
a vertical structure, often made of stone or brick, that divides or surrounds something
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Someone that was "good" because of region lock and that everybody suck on like he was going to be the next great foreigner but had absolutly no chance of beating Koreans.
He won one WCS and placed a few time second i believe
Dude that is harsh! He won quite a few matches vs Korean opposition like JD, TY, ForGG, Rain, ..
.
Hmm, nope, didn't forget anyone. Like I get why people hype him, but do you really expect Showtime to win anything important? Since his 2016 WCS victory he didn't win any premier tournament. Don't get me wrong, he's good at winning weeklies and even some qualifiers. But once the tournament starts he somehow doesn't deliver for whatever reason. I would love to be surprised though, because I can see the possibility. Like my heat says yes, but brain says nope.
This calls for a Foreign Protoss Power Rank!
1. Showtime 2. Neeb 3. Astrea 4. Mana 5. Nice 6. Drogo 7. Has 8. Harstem 9. MaxPax
Nobody seems to be talking about Lilbow's peak form outside of "he was good for a foreigner".
Of course I'm a fan, but at the time the way Lilbow shred through his fellow foreigners was insane. He had the best killer instinct I've ever seen in a foreigner, especially knowing their tendencies to gain leads and then throw them away (qxc vs Jaedong I believe?).
I remember Lilbow doing things like cancelling 2/2 in a heartbeat the second he saw an opportunity to kill bunny. His blink all-ins in PvT and forcefield micro in PvZ were just ruthless.
Also, let's not forget he challenged Hydra multiple times, during an era where he just never lost against foreigners. He ended beating him 3-2 on it's way to his championship, including a game where he came back after being down 1 base to three, on the back of his forcefield micro.
On January 13 2021 03:08 coogerdark wrote: I hope he comes back in good form, but as far as lingering resentment toward him as he's coming back goes, it wasn't like he quietly left the SC2 scene for OW. As far as I recall, there were a fair amount of parting shots from him at SC2 as a game while he was heading out the door.
OTOH it would be great to have a good Protoss winning something outside the Korea. And unless HuK or NaNiwa find their lost mojo and fully properly return(which is unlikely), Lilbow has the biggest chance. He was really good back then.
(OK, maybe Neeb can find his 2016 form again, which would be great)
Edit> Like c'mon, it happened 5 years ago, let it go. Also let Let It Go go!
You forgot a Protoss! I give you a tip:
a vertical structure, often made of stone or brick, that divides or surrounds something
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Someone that was "good" because of region lock and that everybody suck on like he was going to be the next great foreigner but had absolutly no chance of beating Koreans.
He won one WCS and placed a few time second i believe
Dude that is harsh! He won quite a few matches vs Korean opposition like JD, TY, ForGG, Rain, ..
.
Hmm, nope, didn't forget anyone. Like I get why people hype him, but do you really expect Showtime to win anything important? Since his 2016 WCS victory he didn't win any premier tournament. Don't get me wrong, he's good at winning weeklies and even some qualifiers. But once the tournament starts he somehow doesn't deliver for whatever reason. I would love to be surprised though, because I can see the possibility. Like my heat says yes, but brain says nope.
This calls for a Foreign Protoss Power Rank!
1. Showtime 2. Neeb 3. Astrea 4. Mana 5. Nice 6. Drogo 7. Has 8. Harstem 9. MaxPax
I feel like I missed someone ^^
Maxpax between Nice and Drogo, otherwise accurate for me
On January 12 2021 07:32 deacon.frost wrote: Now honestly, what was he doing the time and why is he returning now? Is he more optimistic about the future than the rest of us, or he didn't notice how the European scene looks like
I only follow Overwatch and SC2 when it comes to esports so I can fill in a bit. lilbow has been playing professionally for a while, actually since the very beginning. Most of his accomplishments were in Tier 2 Overwatch though; the Overwatch scene has a major Tier 1 scene which the Overwatch League (OWL) and a T2 scene that is composed of various regions (contenders) all over the world. OWL is dominated by Koreans and in the T2 scene most of the eyes are also to the Korean T2 scene. Those players often get the highest chance when it comes to landing trials and so on. Also since OW has a high demand on real-time communication, it gets challenging to build mixed teams, meaning, a lot of teams opt for all-Korean players. Although mixed teams exist and the most successful team in OW is actually a mixed team.
As I said, most of lilbow's accomplishments were in T2. He has been generally in a lot of good EU T2 teams and I have cheered for him whenever I watched him play in T2. However, he was not the most eye-catching player. He was never bad but he also was never that dominant player. In OW, he mostly support which is kind of a stacked role and it is a bit difficult to stand out, however, there are a number of standout support players and it's very hard to compete with them.
About a year ago, he made it to OWL as a coach for Toronto Defiant, one of the OWL team, generally considered to be middle of the pack or in the bottom half. But things didn't work out too well for him and he was released about 4 months ago. Here's his twitlonger about that: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srd4vj
He had insane mechanics... But I remember him as being pretty arrogant and antipathic. Well, him or me, people can change. Other than that, he enjoyed a real favorable meta before getting schred into pieces by Life and resorting the worst excuses.
Anyway, I am still curious to see what his performance will be.
People are hating on a great player that showed more results in a year than most others in half a decade. Yes, his "excuses" on the 3-0 debacle (talk about an an amazing format) were bad and even I can't argue against it, but I find it hilarious that people can be that salty about it years after when he arguably was the best foreigner in 2015 producing high quality games.
As for the OW informations being thrown around by people that have 100% no idea what they are talking about except for #65, he ended up being crowned OW Contenders Europe champion twice, before transitioning to a coach position in an actual OWLeague team.
His team (Eagle Gaming) was considered to be one of the greatest team to play the GOATs composition that was so dominant. A lot revolved around his ability to make plays with a non shiny role of Lucio.
All i'm saying is; he's one of the actual best foreigners to play sc2, reached great results in an other esports (it's not like there are dozens of players that have that ability to be champions in two totally different games) and still gets shitted on. I guess this is internet.
On January 14 2021 06:48 FunKaDeLiC wrote: People are hating on a great player that showed more results in a year than most others in half a decade. Yes, his "excuses" on the 3-0 debacle (talk about an an amazing format) were bad and even I can't argue against it, but I find it hilarious that people can be that salty about it years after when he arguably was the best foreigner in 2015 producing high quality games.
As for the OW informations being thrown around by people that have 100% no idea what they are talking about except for #65, he ended up being crowned OW Contenders Europe champion twice, before transitioning to a coach position in an actual OWLeague team.
His team (Eagle Gaming) was considered to be one of the greatest team to play the GOATs composition that was so dominant. A lot revolved around his ability to make plays with a non shiny role of Lucio.
All i'm saying is; he's one of the actual best foreigners to play sc2, reached great results in an other esports (it's not like there are dozens of players that have that ability to be champions in two totally different games) and still gets shitted on. I guess this is internet.
So "people" are hating and shitting on him? I am very curious which posters you are replying to because most posts here do not fit the description of hating on him (even though there are one or two of those).
Mentioning his starcraft 2 past because that is what most of remember about him is not hating.
Regarding the overwatch misinformation you are right about that and it was really interesting to read how his time in OW has been since I had no idea.
On January 14 2021 01:29 VengefulTree wrote: Nobody seems to be talking about Lilbow's peak form outside of "he was good for a foreigner".
Of course I'm a fan, but at the time the way Lilbow shred through his fellow foreigners was insane. He had the best killer instinct I've ever seen in a foreigner, especially knowing their tendencies to gain leads and then throw them away (qxc vs Jaedong I believe?).
I remember Lilbow doing things like cancelling 2/2 in a heartbeat the second he saw an opportunity to kill bunny. His blink all-ins in PvT and forcefield micro in PvZ were just ruthless.
Also, let's not forget he challenged Hydra multiple times, during an era where he just never lost against foreigners. He ended beating him 3-2 on it's way to his championship, including a game where he came back after being down 1 base to three, on the back of his forcefield micro.
I mean, he was the best foreigner in an era were foreigners were shit. challenging Hydra is nice and all but Hydra back then was far from being a top korean player either and he himself admitted he wouldn't have a chance at going far at Blizzcon even if he practiced. Of course it demands respect that he was at one point the best foreigner but we don't need to have any delusions about his skill level back then.
I don’t really understand why people think he has a shot at having better results than the best foreign Protoss. I don’t think he ever reached ShoWTimE / Neeb or even Astrea level (well Astrea is too young so they didn’t play the same extension at the same time, and Neeb probably was still Terran during hots...). Still cool to see old faces coming back, and maybe he can still obtain good results in LotV; since he will be a total outsider nowadays there won’t be as much pressure to perform as in early LotV (which was also close to the whole BlizzCon thing, and didn’t help to perform either).
On January 14 2021 08:26 Poopi wrote: I don’t really understand why people think he has a shot at having better results than the best foreign Protoss. I don’t think he ever reached ShoWTimE / Neeb or even Astrea level (well Astrea is too young so they didn’t play the same extension at the same time, and Neeb probably was still Terran during hots...). Still cool to see old faces coming back, and maybe he can still obtain good results in LotV; since he will be a total outsider nowadays there won’t be as much pressure to perform as in early LotV (which was also close to the whole BlizzCon thing, and didn’t help to perform either).
So with this assessment of yours in mind it makes even less sense for him to (re)-join the playing field now IMHO. As much as I welcome any player infusion to the competitive scene nowadays, Lilbow just brings up a bitter taste in my mouth plus I don't consider him a staple of the community in total, but let's wait and see if he can have any impact.
On January 14 2021 08:26 Poopi wrote: I don’t really understand why people think he has a shot at having better results than the best foreign Protoss. I don’t think he ever reached ShoWTimE / Neeb or even Astrea level (well Astrea is too young so they didn’t play the same extension at the same time, and Neeb probably was still Terran during hots...). Still cool to see old faces coming back, and maybe he can still obtain good results in LotV; since he will be a total outsider nowadays there won’t be as much pressure to perform as in early LotV (which was also close to the whole BlizzCon thing, and didn’t help to perform either).
It's just based on his past and people would like to see win some Protoss. And Lilbow was able to do that. Will he be able to do that again? Nobody knows. Same thing applied to Taeja when he returned.
On January 14 2021 04:36 stilt wrote: He had insane mechanics... But I remember him as being pretty arrogant and antipathic. Well, him or me, people can change. Other than that, he enjoyed a real favorable meta before getting schred into pieces by Life and resorting the worst excuses.
Anyway, I am still curious to see what his performance will be.
Finally someone with an edge to him I say I miss Naniwa and Idra.
On January 14 2021 08:26 Poopi wrote: I don’t really understand why people think he has a shot at having better results than the best foreign Protoss. I don’t think he ever reached ShoWTimE / Neeb or even Astrea level (well Astrea is too young so they didn’t play the same extension at the same time, and Neeb probably was still Terran during hots...). Still cool to see old faces coming back, and maybe he can still obtain good results in LotV; since he will be a total outsider nowadays there won’t be as much pressure to perform as in early LotV (which was also close to the whole BlizzCon thing, and didn’t help to perform either).
Just for the record Neeb was already playing Protoss when Lilbow won WCS.
About a year ago, he made it to OWL as a coach for Toronto Defiant, one of the OWL team, generally considered to be middle of the pack or in the bottom half. But things didn't work out too well for him and he was released about 4 months ago. Here's his twitlonger about that: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srd4vj
That was quite inetresting. I had no real idea what an OWL coach would actually do. Shame his time was cut short there. I'm curious to see him play again.
About a year ago, he made it to OWL as a coach for Toronto Defiant, one of the OWL team, generally considered to be middle of the pack or in the bottom half. But things didn't work out too well for him and he was released about 4 months ago. Here's his twitlonger about that: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srd4vj
That was quite inetresting. I had no real idea what an OWL coach would actually do. Shame his time was cut short there. I'm curious to see him play again.
Didn't realize what OWL means and I was thinking he was into falconry with owls >< It's similar as when i see gg I wonder why General Grievous is being summoned . This Friday was really mentally exhausting.
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Foreigners struggled a lot vs koreans before region lock, especially during HotS. During last HotS year (2015 iirc), Lilbow who is a french protoss player became the best foreigner, mostly on the back of his great blink play (during protoss blink era), and was the only foreigner to qualify for BlizzCon.
People thus had high hopes for him, and he got cheesed thrice by Life and lost the bo5 3-0 in something like 30 minutes. It would have been relatively harmless if he didn't say that with everyone practicing LotV, it was hard to find practice partners or something like this. People started mocking him for what they considered a poor excuse for his performance.
I'm glad to see that Lilbow is playing again, and I hope he does well, but let's not pretend he was ever the best foreigner for the year 2015. Unless you mean that he was the best French Protoss player?
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Foreigners struggled a lot vs koreans before region lock, especially during HotS. During last HotS year (2015 iirc), Lilbow who is a french protoss player became the best foreigner, mostly on the back of his great blink play (during protoss blink era), and was the only foreigner to qualify for BlizzCon.
People thus had high hopes for him, and he got cheesed thrice by Life and lost the bo5 3-0 in something like 30 minutes. It would have been relatively harmless if he didn't say that with everyone practicing LotV, it was hard to find practice partners or something like this. People started mocking him for what they considered a poor excuse for his performance.
I'm glad to see that Lilbow is playing again, and I hope he does well, but let's not pretend he was ever the best foreigner for the year 2015. Unless you mean that he was the best French Protoss player?
Who else would it be? According to the 2015 global standings, Lilbow is 13th while the next foreigner is Snute at 26th. Wasn't a very hot year for foreigners
On January 12 2021 06:58 starvingbox wrote: For newcomers to the scene, who exactly is this?
Foreigners struggled a lot vs koreans before region lock, especially during HotS. During last HotS year (2015 iirc), Lilbow who is a french protoss player became the best foreigner, mostly on the back of his great blink play (during protoss blink era), and was the only foreigner to qualify for BlizzCon.
People thus had high hopes for him, and he got cheesed thrice by Life and lost the bo5 3-0 in something like 30 minutes. It would have been relatively harmless if he didn't say that with everyone practicing LotV, it was hard to find practice partners or something like this. People started mocking him for what they considered a poor excuse for his performance.
I'm glad to see that Lilbow is playing again, and I hope he does well, but let's not pretend he was ever the best foreigner for the year 2015. Unless you mean that he was the best French Protoss player?
Well I did not follow sc2 that much in this period but if he was the sole foreigner qualified to BlizzCon, doesn't that make him the de facto best foreigner that year?
EPT
