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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST) |
On February 28 2015 07:03 Swoopae wrote:
Seriously why is there not more attention being brought to this? I even PM'd a TL mod. Does matchfixing only get attention when barrages of claims are made on twitter? I've send Kespa the relevant information twice now and received no reply.
Does the esports community really not care that match fixing is probably going on at the highest level? I'm so disappointed. All I want to see is a proper investigation into the matter.
Another possibility is that the major Kespa streams are slightly delayed and we don't know about it, similar to the Olimoley observer scandal, but I really doubt that's the case with major leagues. Can someone confirm that isn't the case? Because if it isn't, then it's very highly likely that players are involved in match fixing and it would be fairly simple to prove with a basic investigation by Kespa when the bookmaker in question has agreed to cooperate with an investigation.
I'm worried but as many of us, I can't do anything besides staying informed  I totally understand your frustration and I hope you get some answers!
Also what is the Olimoley obs scandal? I missed something?
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On February 28 2015 08:32 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 07:03 Swoopae wrote:
Seriously why is there not more attention being brought to this? I even PM'd a TL mod. Does matchfixing only get attention when barrages of claims are made on twitter? I've send Kespa the relevant information twice now and received no reply.
Does the esports community really not care that match fixing is probably going on at the highest level? I'm so disappointed. All I want to see is a proper investigation into the matter.
Another possibility is that the major Kespa streams are slightly delayed and we don't know about it, similar to the Olimoley observer scandal, but I really doubt that's the case with major leagues. Can someone confirm that isn't the case? Because if it isn't, then it's very highly likely that players are involved in match fixing and it would be fairly simple to prove with a basic investigation by Kespa when the bookmaker in question has agreed to cooperate with an investigation. I'm worried but as many of us, I can't do anything besides staying informed I totally understand your frustration and I hope you get some answers! Also what is the Olimoley obs scandal? I missed something?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/477687-suspicious-korean-sponsors-tweets-by-olimoley
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No one on TL can do anything about this, its up to korea to conduct an investigation. We can only be patient
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I am not sure the Olimoley obs scandal is connected to these cases. I have never even seen any proof that you could actually bet on those small tournaments.
I really hope Pinnacle is investigating this further. If a lot of people stop betting because of that it could get a huge problem for them. Maybe they also don't want to comment on it any further to not bring more attention to it. If these incidents continue to happen however it is inevitable for them to do something.
No news from Kespa as well. I don't think they are planing to do a statement at that time.
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Got a response from Pinnacle again. They cancelled the Dream vs Super bets for the same reason as San vs Dark
Dear Client,
Please accept our apology for any inconvenience caused.
We detected irregular betting patterns on the event and in response, as is our protocol in these circumstances, we voided all wagers.
We apologise for the inconvenience and frustration this causes. This action is very rarely taken and is for the protection of all our customers.
Kind Regards,
Customer Service Department / Pinnacle Sports
The Olimoley obs case is to do with underground betting not Pinnacle and players arent involved in that it's a totally seperate manner, it's illegal sportsbettors using an advantage to steal money from other sportsbettors but matches aren't being thrown as may be the case here.
I asked Pinnacle for a followup statement they said email as been forwarded to relevant department but at least they confirm the unusual betting action and their suspicion that the match was thrown or manipulated with their cancellation of action on the Dream vs Super series based on the suspicious Game 1.
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Re: Kespa streams delayed - I don't think that is the case, i've actually attended a Code S final live in Korea and it was definitely live.
...which means if the match is being manipulated for the benefits of bettors it's matches being thrown, or otherwise manipulated by players. Which sucks. But that's the most likely outcome.
To clarify
Three games have been identified as suspicious betting patterns/all bets cancelled by Pinnacle now
San vs Dark in Proleague (bo1)
Innovation vs Super, set 1 specifically (bo3, Code S r32)
Super vs Dream, set 1 specifically, (bo5, Starleague Quarter Finals)
All three games in question were won by the player that all of the money was bet on.
Looking at it like that, does anyone really think that Super is a large favourite over Innovation in a bo1 but a 7-1 underdog against Dream? Is there any other explanation? Because i'm waiting for one, or for Kespa to investigate these matches (and potentially others) for irregularities and potential match fixing.
Irregularities were also brought up with the betting on some of Innovation's matches at the Hot6 Cup last year vs sOs and CJ herO but limited details were given and Pinnacle didn't cancel those matches and i'll steer clear from speculation as I didn't witness any irregularities there as I wasn't looking for them. If an investigation occurs they're worth looking into though as my source is convinced that something happened there as well.
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On February 28 2015 10:25 Swoopae wrote:
Re: Kespa streams delayed - I don't think that is the case, i've actually attended a Code S final live in Korea and it was definitely live.
...which means if the match is being manipulated for the benefits of bettors it's matches being thrown, or otherwise manipulated by players. Which sucks. But that's the most likely outcome.
To clarify
Three games have been identified as suspicious betting patterns/all bets cancelled by Pinnacle now
San vs Dark in Proleague (bo1)
Innovation vs Super, set 1 specifically (bo3, Code S r32)
Super vs Dream, set 1 specifically, (bo5, Starleague Quarter Finals)
All three games in question were won by the player that all of the money was bet on.
Looking at it like that, does anyone really think that Super is a large favourite over Innovation in a bo1 but a 7-1 underdog against Dream? Is there any other explanation? Because i'm waiting for one, or for Kespa to investigate these matches (and potentially others) for irregularities and potential match fixing.
Irregularities were also brought up with the betting on some of Innovation's matches at the Hot6 Cup last year vs sOs and CJ herO but limited details were given and Pinnacle didn't cancel those matches and i'll steer clear from speculation as I didn't witness any irregularities there as I wasn't looking for them. If an investigation occurs they're worth looking into though as my source is convinced that something happened there as well.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Inno throwing matches on purpose, it's not like he is not making money by trusting his in-game skills. But then there was this other guy in BW...
I know nothing about betting (in fact all I know is what you have posted in these threads so far), but how early does the line close before a match? 5min? half an hour? Because if it's just a few minutes, it possible that someone watching them live in the studio can pass info to the bettors when the game has already started while we Pinnacle doesn't know yet and thus hasn't closed the line.
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The line closes something like 30secs before the game starts on average. That said, you wouldn't have a significant edge betting for at LEAST 1-2 minutes or so of a build order cheese win and generally a few more minutes for a more standard game. Unless the delay exceeds that
Also worth noting it was Map 1 in the Inno match, and he still won the series 2-1 and advanced from the group. No money came in on Super to win Map 2, 3 or the series it was all specifically on Innovation to lose the first map. Interestingly enough the player her met in that match(Super) was the losing player in the newest suspicious game.
I've attended games live in Korea, as far as I know they are broadcast live and a delay of a few seconds would be useless to bettors. So this isn't a delay thing as was the case for the minor league scandal Olimoley broke unless we're all wrong and broadcasts are delayed. I have friends going to Korea in April, i'll get one of them to attend a match and get on skype with me in real time so I can check what sort of delay there is to the stream unless such info is publicly released before then.
I'm almost certain that there is not a significant enough delay for stream delay to be the cause of the betting discrepancies, but i'm open to being proven wrong. Is anyone who speaks English in Korea right now and willing to go to the studio and test it?
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I agree with Swoop, it is appalling how this is being swept under the rug. I'm not going to mince my words, there is almost certainly match-fixing going on. The betting is way too irregular for it not to be. San's reactions, his build, his mistakes are just so obviously match-fixing. It angers me that he is still playing. For me, there is proof beyond reasonable doubt that San threw that match.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 28 2015 10:25 Swoopae wrote:
Re: Kespa streams delayed - I don't think that is the case, i've actually attended a Code S final live in Korea and it was definitely live.
I‘ve attended SPL in Gangnam, discussing matches with my friends on Kakao while watching. No delay for sure.
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On February 28 2015 11:51 IAMPRO wrote:
I agree with Swoop, it is appalling how this is being swept under the rug. I'm not going to mince my words, there is almost certainly match-fixing going on. The betting is way too irregular for it not to be. San's reactions, his build, his mistakes are just so obviously match-fixing. It angers me that he is still playing. For me, there is proof beyond reasonable doubt that San threw that match.
Thanks.
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I think its fair to assume that people with power and influence within the Korean SC2 scene are involved with this. If they were not, then they would have a huge incentive to investigate and to resolve this issue.
If this were just players making money on the side, the management would crack down on it because it hurts the long term credibility of the sport. Why would they let players profit at their expense? They wouldn't. They would crack down on them hard and fast. However, that hasn't happened.
But because they have done nothing.... it says to me that they are involved and are actively trying to suppress it rather than fix it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 27 2015 10:58 Swoopae wrote:
The closest line I can see to this on any upcoming game is Hydra vs Morrow. For the series, not one map. Based on the series price and price on Hydra to win 2-0; Hydra would be slightly more than a 4-1 favourite in Game 1 on current odds if they offered that bet. Nearly twice as likely that Morrow beats Hydra in 1 map as Super beating Dream in 1 map. Does that seem reasonable to anyone?
So as it turns out your choice of comparison was super ironic  (Although the matchup did turn out to be 3-2 over the whole day, that first set was quite the shocker!)
More on topic, I'm really glad that you are continuing to stay on top of these irregularities. I hope we can raise enough attention to get a full Kespa investigation and report, as I was very disappointed that there was no official follow-up or statement after the Dark-San and Innovation-Super games. I hope they are still investigating and are just not ready to make a public statement yet, rather than trying to ignore the issue.
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Am I the only one who doesn't get the scandal? Dark is WAAAAY fucking better than San. San blows yo. Of course he smashed him. Inno is WAAAAAAY better than Super. Of course he smashed him.
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Well fanboy / hype / hyperbole aside the math doesn't support them being that big of favorites. Also, the suspicious betting was for Innovation to lose.
So I think you're glossing over the finer details.
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Gotchya. I certainly did with the Inno match. I still don't get the dark/san thing and never did. San is just not very good.
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Australia18228 Posts
On February 28 2015 15:08 TronJovolta wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the scandal? Dark is WAAAAY fucking better than San. San blows yo. Of course he smashed him. Inno is WAAAAAAY better than Super. Of course he smashed him.
San 2-0'd Dark in IEM qualifiers a few weeks before their PL match
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On February 28 2015 15:08 TronJovolta wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the scandal? Dark is WAAAAY fucking better than San. San blows yo. Of course he smashed him. Inno is WAAAAAAY better than Super. Of course he smashed him.
The money was on Super beating INno for map 1 though, with no money coming on Super for the rest of the series. Which is definitely suspicious, there are no reasons for Super to be heavily favored against INno for map 1 but then to be at ~equal odds for the two remaining maps.
As for the possibility of match fixing, well that makes me scared. Especially when you see the players involved.
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Again, is BLizzard or Kespa investigating this? If they are, why don't I know that they are?
If they are not investigating: why not???? :o
The betting people seem to be pretty convinced that something is going on, and while not conclusive, it definitely seems to be enough indication for Kespa and Blizzard to take it very seriously!
As it is now, only thin gI know is that some random private person (that olimoly reporter or whatever) is putting evidence together, but I don't feel an online article is nearly enough action to suspected matchfixing... The people in charge of the competition must realise that match-fixing very likely is going on, and act.
So well, I really hope that Blizzard and/or Kespa are investigating secretely, not to stir up the entire scene if possible, but I guess there is no way to know...
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On February 28 2015 15:08 TronJovolta wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't get the scandal? Dark is WAAAAY fucking better than San. San blows yo. Of course he smashed him. Inno is WAAAAAAY better than Super. Of course he smashed him.
If San blows you can get almost even money on Yonghwa against him today.Go collect your free money. Off topic though.
On topic, in Innovation vs Super, it was SUPER who was the betting favourite to the tune of something like 3-1 from memory, but ONLY in game 1. He was something like a 2-1 underdog in maps 2 and 3 and for the series. Innovation remained a substantial favourite for games 2 and 3 and the series. He was a big underdog for Game 1. He lost Game 1. He then won games 2 and 3 and the series. If you do not think this is suspicious you have no understanding of betting markets or common sense.
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