Not even a single official match has been played, but we can already say there are some winners and losers in the 2014 Proleague preseason. And no, we're not talking about that preseason, a series of exhibition matches and 2v2's. No, we're talking about all the changes that occurred in the long break between seasons, whether it was the flurry of moves on the transfer market or the growth and development existing players. Let's take a look!
Walking on Sunshine
Jin Air Green Wings IN:sOs, Maru OUT: Argo, check, Neige, TY Other Changes: Didn't die, got a new sponsor and a ton of financial support instead. Coach Cha Ji Hoon promoted to head coach after former head coach Han Sang Yong was transferred to Jin Air's LoL team. Grade: A+
Simply not dying was already a huge win for the team-formerly-known-as-Team Eight, but they've emerged as one of the strongest Proleague teams on top of that. In undoubtedly the biggest transfer story of the off season, Jin Air snagged both Blizzcon winner sOs and OSL Champion and Terran Prodigy Maru. They will replace the retired Jaehoon and the departed KT_TY, and both are incredible upgrades over their predecessors.
The moves came from completely out of nowhere, as Maru seemed destined to bear the weight of dragging Prime along, and sOs seemed like he'd be perfectly suited to playing just individual tournaments for Woongjin Stars. Meanwhile, Jin Air looked destined to suffer, inheriting a Team 8 roster full of player who were essentially on KeSPA welfare after all other teams had decided to pass them over.
It looks like Jin Air is taking their sponsorship very seriously, however, as they must have ponied up a significant amount of money to land both highly coveted players. They went from pity party to playoff potential in a single day, and though they still have some depth problems to take care of, adding two WCS champions should buoy a team full of promising players.
After losing long time captain BeSt and the uncannily handsome Bisu to retirement, SKT fans felt a little dour. Sure, they still had PartinG, FanTaSy and Rain, but the departure of two well loved, if under-performing veterans was hard to get over. While you never really get over your favorite players retiring, the new signings should at least give SKT fans something to be happy about as they've rocketed up most preseason projections to become the clear favorites to win Proleague.
The addition of SoulKey would make any team an instant contender, but putting him on a team with a revitalized Rain and PartinG just feels unfair. Soulkey has been the most consistent Zerg player for well over a year, and he was the best Zerg in the 12-13 Proleague with the runner-up Woongjin Stars. While SKT Zergs have a bad reputation, and their luck with big name Zerg signings has not been great (see: GoRush, JulyZerg), Soulkey has all the skills to turn that around. Not only does Soulkey add immediate depth to a Zerg-line that was basically just soO by himself, but now SKT have an ace-class player in all races. Ridiculous.
Soulkey is the headline grabbing signing, but the signing of Classic is the one that hipster fans and "moneyball" fans should find the most astute. Since switching to Protoss after an underwhelming stint as a Terran, Classic was without a doubt the most improved player of last season. With a combined 8-0 against T and Z, and a decent 4-3 in PvP, he was a crucial supporting player in STX Soul's championship run. Though he may be underrated by many, there's a reason why he was the only other SouL player than INnoVation to get signed immediately when the team disbanded. Classic might not play in every match, but he's hilariously overqualified to be SKT's 5th or 6th player.
Finally, BrAvO rounds out SKT's off-season moves. While he might not get much playing time, he provides decent backup for FanTaSy and a thin Terran line.
CJ Entus IN: Coach Park OUT: None Other changes: Hydra, Sora, and herO have emerged as championship class players. Also, CJ Entus started catering to foreign fans. Grade: B+
Despite their only big addition being Coach Park, the multiple Proleague winning head coach deserves as much hype as any star player. His presence has been immediately noticeable, not just in the performances of their players, but in the way the way the team is marketing itself to the world. Like a top football team, CJ Entus has been busy playing friendlies against a variety of international teams like JinAir, EG, SKT and Invictus Gaming, trying to show foreign fans that of all the KeSPA teams, they are ones worth cheering for. Sending EffOrt, Hydra and herO—who won the event—to IEM Singapore also seems to be in line with their plans to become more marketable and foreigner-friendly.
Having added no new players, CJ will have to rely on Coach Park to coax the best out of what they already have. Initial impressions suggest that he's been doing a great job, with our first glimpse coming at IEM Singapore. Hydra and herO defeated some of the best players in Korea to break through the qualifiers, while team captain effOrt successfully made his way through the live, open bracket. While Hydra and EffOrt were impressive, it was herO who stole the show with a dominant run to the championship. He displayed both immaculate control and impervious defense to take the title with just three map losses. He swept aside Bomber and Dream in the group stage, crushed both DongRaeGu and Mvp in 3-0s, and defeated San 4-2 in the final. If he can play that well in Proleague, CJ is right up there with Jin Air and SKT as title contenders.
Along with those three established starters (and Bbyong, who is somehow always in Code S), CJ will look to continue the development of their impressive young players. The most talked about prospect is, of course, Sora, who earned silver at WCG behind Soulkey while beating PartinG, Dayshi and MacSed along the way. He is the hottest rookie heading into the season, and is improving rapidly in his first year as a full pro after being just a hobbyist. There is also Bunny, one of the best true rookies of last season, and SonGDuri, who made it into the last Code S of the year. Sure, they don’t technically count as new players, but player development counts.
When your new coach has your players playing this well, it’s hard to say that it wasn’t a productive off-season. To cap it all off, CJ Entus can head into the regular season with a smile, having won the official Preseason tournament.
One Word Summary: Meh
Incredible Miracle IN: Trap, Absolute, HerO (via Team Liquid partnership) OUT: KangHo Other changes: Lost LG sponsorship. Grade: C+
On paper, losing KangHo but gaining Trap looks like a net positive for Incredible Miracle. Despite being a regular Code S Zerg, KangHo has rarely performed well in team leagues. His record is also surprisingly mediocre, relying mostly on ZvZs to get by in tournaments. With Zergs already a rarity in Proleague, it was unlikely that he was going to get a sniff of playing time ahead of ByuL, who has been competitive in non-mirrors.
However, if there is one thing that IM did not need, it was another Protoss. With Squirtle, First, and YongHwa already on the roster and the addition of HerO as their mercenary, they have taken PvProleague to a ridiculous extreme. They could easily field an all Protoss lineup, an option they might actually resort to once or twice in the season.
So while Trap might be an upgrade over KangHo, it might not mean much given the lack of Terran and Zerg depth after YoDa and ByuL. At this point, you have to wonder why they couldn’t have signed someone else (unless we see a 'Squirtle to team Epik' headline in the next week). Well, at least that means we might see Mvp and NesTea back in an SPL booth!
KT Rolster IN: TY (Baby) OUT: None Other changes Clide departs as coach for military service. Grade: C+
Oh BaBy, you were supposed to be the next Terran prodigy! Though he has had a reasonably successful career, you’ll find even the staunchest TY fan accepting that he has yet to live up to the potential he showed when he signed for WeMade FOX as a 13 year old. His addition to KT’s Roster is a good move for both parties, as it adds much needed Terran depth behind Flash while it gives a good opportunity for TY to learn from the prodigy that came before him.
For KT to challenge for the title, however, they will still need to address their weak Zerg lineup. Between hitmaN, Crazy and Action, you’re unlikely to find a player that would start for other team. You're probably going to see at least one of them every week, and it's not going to be pretty. Even so, the Bo5 format means they can rely on some combination of Flash, Stat, Zest and TY to grind out the wins.
Overall, KT HAS become stronger. But unfortunately for a team like KT that expects to challenge for the title each year, it really doesn't feel like they've done enough compared to their rivals.
Not Looking Pretty
Team MVP IN: Tible OUT: NAKSEO, duckdeok Other changes: Everyone else is about the same. OGN LoL Champions winning coach Lim Seok Hyeon has taken over as head coach, after the departure of the ex-MVP head coach to Samsung Galaxy's LoL team. Grade: C-
“Wait what, a C- isn’t a failing grade!” you scream at your computer, shaking your fist at my audaciously low opinion of MVP’s off season.
MVP and its deep line-up could still have a good season in Proleague. With a likely starting 5 of DRG, Dream, KeeN, Super, and one of TAiLS, Sniper, or Billowy, they have the potential to do some damage. Unfortunately, they didn’t do anything to improve their team, and none of their players heads into the season with any momentum. Dream and DRG have seen their fortunes rise in recent months, but they've failed to be credible title contenders.
And that's where Team MVP's biggest weakness is: unlike the other top teams, they don’t have clear championship caliber players. Duckdeok, who looked like he could be a real difference maker with his dynamic, win-at-all-costs style of play (go watch his Blizzcon B-Stream games), abruptly decided to retire. Though team MVP still has a lot of depth, that would have better served them in the old Bo7 format than the newly introduced Bo5.
Will MVP's dwindling stable of good but not great players have what it takes to upset the established order? This is a grand opportunity for DRG to return to his Team League Bonjwa days, and MVP will have to hope it happens if they want to be more than a middle-tier team and move up to challenging for the title.
Samsung Galaxy IN: None OUT: JangBi Other changes: Team name changed from Khan to Galaxy, RorO fell off a cliff. Long time head coach January stepped down, replaced by coach Oh Sang Taek. Grade : D
When you lose your best player and do nothing to replace him, you’re in big trouble. Samsung Electronics was willing to pay the big bucks to acquire team MVP's championship winning LoL squads and put them under the GALAXY banner, but their SC2 squad was not lucky enough to receive some of that dirty smartphone money.
Despite Samsung finishing a respectable 5th last season and only one game behind SKT, it took an almost improbable collapse by T1 and JangBi’s heroics to get there. RorO was the only other Khan player with a positive record, and he slumped hard with the release of HotS. Having someone barely in Code A as your de facto ace is not an appealing prospect. Players like Reality, Solar, and and Shine would struggle to be regulars on any of the top teams, so barring a simultaneous massive improvement it's going to be a rough season for Samsung Galaxy. While other teams have been actively trying to improve, the only thing Samsung has done is change their name and logo.
Prime IN: Kal OUT: MarineKing, Maru Other Changes: Err... they have a LoL team now? Grade: F
Kal: "Wait, no, WHAT?!" Sorry Kal, I guess you didn't choose the right team to come back on. Unless, he wanted a lot of guaranteed playing time, which he might very well get depending on how desperate Prime becomes.
You can’t lose two of your best and most iconic players and expect to do well in the most difficult and grueling team league on earth. MarineKing’s departure to LoL may not have been as big a surprise considering his rapidly deteriorating form, but Maru’s sudden switch to Jin Air was like losing an arm and a leg for Prime. Now they must rely on both Creator (who was the team's public face on media day) and ByuN—two players who have struggled heavily in HotS—to carry their team. Last place seems like a safe bet for Prime, and they might even challenge the old Air Force Ace in terms of how solidly they are glued to the bottom of the table.
There really isn’t much to say when you have a line up like this. They’ll have to use what time they have left to find some reinforcements, hope that B teamers like Eins, Chance, and Splendid improve at a miraculous pace, or find that Kal is actually an SC2 super-prodigy.
So, first of all - Samsung didn't change name to Samsung Galaxy - they are now Samsung Galaxy Khan :p
And more importantly - you are hinting quite a few times, that the rule of 'You need to have at least 1 of P, T and Z in a match' is no longer valid. (for example at IM saying they can field all protoss lineup or KT fielding Flash/Zest/Stats/TY). Is that a true and confirmed information? If so, that sucks -.-
Otherwise great article and I basically agree with all you are saying
Good Writeup. Agree with everything except IM getting graded C+. I would give them a B or B-. Sure, they may have a lot of protoss players now but you can never have enough in PvProleague.
It's funny that while KT acquired Ty, which should be a very positive thing, SKT, Jin Air and CJ got so much more that KT doesn't seem to have improved at all. Would be sweet if KT can get Dear in time for the season to start.
On the other hand, SKT has so many great players that many of them can hardly expect to be fielded with any regularity. Shame about that bo5, really.
Skt looking beastmode this season. I don't get why prime is even in the league with such a crippled roster, it would be way more competitive to have startale in the league
Will be a fun proleague for sure, but i think these rankings are kinda random at this point, we don't really know much about most of the players that didn't play since last proleague and with the bo5 format a team needs only 2-3 strong players and can still do great (even if it is obviously better if you have more ).
The biggest issue with T8 last season was they could never get 2 guys hot at once. It will be very hard for sOs to top what he did last year in PL. Going 5-1 in SD is very hard to do. I don't expect him to play at the same level, but he should at least provide more consistency. Maru is the icing on the cake. Should be interesting to watch them this shortened season.
SKT has never looked stronger. It should be a fun season. Let's go. -.^
I'm making a bet that Jin Air tried to re-acquire Jaedong for the sole purpose of having Maru, sOs and the Dong as contenders for best player of each race. DIRTY DIRTY EG MONEY
On December 17 2013 00:30 Pandemona wrote: Lichter bm samsung smartphones. Confirmed dirty apple user :D
Nice write up, agree with 99% of it well done.
I actually use a Galaxy phone :o
Whatttttttttttttt. So why did you write
Samsung Electronics was willing to pay the big bucks to acquire team MVP's championship winning LoL squads and put them under the GALAXY banner, but their SC2 squad was not lucky enough to receive some of that dirty smartphone money.
:o It's not dirty because there fones are awesomeeeeez and TVs and sponsor the best football team in da worldz
On December 17 2013 00:49 boxerfred wrote: I'm making a bet that Jin Air tried to re-acquire Jaedong for the sole purpose of having Maru, sOs and the Dong as contenders for best player of each race. DIRTY DIRTY EG MONEY
Maybe there is still hope we will see him in proleague, just like hero plays for IM there.
On December 17 2013 00:49 boxerfred wrote: I'm making a bet that Jin Air tried to re-acquire Jaedong for the sole purpose of having Maru, sOs and the Dong as contenders for best player of each race. DIRTY DIRTY EG MONEY
Well, they got two out three. Dirty airline money works too.
On December 17 2013 00:53 lichter wrote: I'm typing this on a Samsung monitor too, while the Simpsons plays on my Samsung TV. I wish my underwear was Samsung
LOlololol <33 Lichter isn't a dirty apple user hoorah. Gogo edit that quote. Not dirty money, nice cleanly made profit money :d
On December 17 2013 00:49 boxerfred wrote: I'm making a bet that Jin Air tried to re-acquire Jaedong for the sole purpose of having Maru, sOs and the Dong as contenders for best player of each race. DIRTY DIRTY EG MONEY
Well, they got two out three. Dirty airline money works too.
Imagine a world with Innovation, Jaedong, Bomber, MMA, Soulkey and Maru in the same team and joing PvProleague :D
I wouldn't be surprised if MarineKing comes back to SC2 exclusively for Proleague. I'd imagine Prime are desperate enough to field him and he's the #6 player on the LoL team.
On December 17 2013 01:28 Clbull wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if MarineKing comes back to SC2 exclusively for Proleague. I'd imagine Prime are desperate enough to field him and he's the #6 player on the LoL team.
This thread should be done after the official roster announcemet. KeSPA: Shark (Samsung KHAN) FaKe (Samsung KHAN) Guilty (Samsung KHAN) SpeeD (Samsung KHAN) hOpe (Samsung KHAN) oDin (Samsung KHAN) Swift (Woongjin Stars) Motive (KT Rolster) Puzzle (KT Rolster) Mind (KT Rolster) BarrackS (KT Rolster) HoeJJa (KT Rolster) Cacia (KT Rolster) Crazy (KT Rolster) Brown (SK Telecom T1) Mercury (SK Telecom T1) JyJ (SK Telecom T1) All these players left their teams so the thread is misleading a lot of people here as they still think that players like Crazy and Puzzle will play. Also it seems that PenguiN joined Prime as he was PenguiN.Prime on DH prelims. All actual rosters are here and it will be updated when the official rosters will be released, all other sites showing actual rosters are wrong: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:DiMano Also plz change Kal -> GooJila and Absolute -> UngNim
On December 17 2013 00:15 CakeSauc3 wrote: Poor Prime T_T
Remember those predictions before last proleague? This was a fun read, but none of these ranks are meaningful.
Problem is, before last proleague no one had any idea how quickly the KeSPA teams where improving and, sure you had outliners like Rain and Flash, but on paper, the combined might of EG-TL's lineup should have been more then enough for a bunch of Code B rookies. As it turned out KeSPA players where literally improving in front of our eyes, and they already had years of experience in playing and preparing for the proleague format, something EG-TL clearly lacked and never made up for.
Lastly, I think everybody wanted desperately to believe that Korea could somehow be conquered and they believed that EG-TL was our best shot at it. The potential roster depth made for an insanely hyped up team that wasn't actually that strong in the PL format.
Of course hindsight is awesome and all that however, judging from the team's relative strengths, which we actually have a better idea of today then we had last time, the changing team dynamics due to transfers and retirements, I think this write up might be more accurate then the last one.
On December 17 2013 01:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: poor prime. Not a single champion class player on their team.
So if ByuN and Creator did poor this year means that they suddenly are bad players? Creator said that it takes him a lot of time to become good. ByuN had the same situation in WoL as he has it now, he was doing bad then he came back and crushed everyone. I do not see any reason to forget about them especially when they are in GSL.
On December 17 2013 00:14 Ammanas wrote: So, first of all - Samsung didn't change name to Samsung Galaxy - they are now Samsung Galaxy Khan :p
And more importantly - you are hinting quite a few times, that the rule of 'You need to have at least 1 of P, T and Z in a match' is no longer valid. (for example at IM saying they can field all protoss lineup or KT fielding Flash/Zest/Stats/TY). Is that a true and confirmed information? If so, that sucks -.-
Otherwise great article and I basically agree with all you are saying
It's been true for a while, idk where you've been...just look at Acer, or last year's winner STX, which was basically Innovation, Trap, Dear, Mini, and Classic.
On December 17 2013 01:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: poor prime. Not a single champion class player on their team.
So if ByuN and Creator did poor this year means that they suddenly are bad players? Creator said that it takes him a lot of time to become good. ByuN had the same situation in WoL as he has it now, he was doing bad then he came back and crushed everyone. I do not see any reason to forget about them especially when they are in GSL.
Considering almost every other team has at least 1 championship level player (with the exception of MVP perhaps) Prime is in trouble. Also, when has ByuN ever "crushed everyone"? he had that one lucky season, and then he dropped out of the group stages next season.
On December 17 2013 01:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: poor prime. Not a single champion class player on their team.
So if ByuN and Creator did poor this year means that they suddenly are bad players? Creator said that it takes him a lot of time to become good. ByuN had the same situation in WoL as he has it now, he was doing bad then he came back and crushed everyone. I do not see any reason to forget about them especially when they are in GSL.
Considering almost every other team has at least 1 championship level player (with the exception of MVP perhaps) Prime is in trouble. Also, when has ByuN ever "crushed everyone"? he had that one lucky season, and then he dropped out of the group stages next season.
On December 17 2013 00:14 Ammanas wrote: So, first of all - Samsung didn't change name to Samsung Galaxy - they are now Samsung Galaxy Khan :p
And more importantly - you are hinting quite a few times, that the rule of 'You need to have at least 1 of P, T and Z in a match' is no longer valid. (for example at IM saying they can field all protoss lineup or KT fielding Flash/Zest/Stats/TY). Is that a true and confirmed information? If so, that sucks -.-
Otherwise great article and I basically agree with all you are saying
It's been true for a while, idk where you've been...just look at Acer, or last year's winner STX, which was basically Innovation, Trap, Dear, Mini, and Classic.
eh? Acer has never played in Proleague. That rule only applied to Proleague as it was a Proleague rule. And as far as STX is concerned, there was also hyvaa, who got to play like every match cause he was the only good zerg at that team.
Last year that was one of the SPL rules for sure, but with the phrasing of the IM and KT parts, I am not sure whether lichter just forgot about it or it is actually not present there this season.
On December 17 2013 01:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: poor prime. Not a single champion class player on their team.
So if ByuN and Creator did poor this year means that they suddenly are bad players? Creator said that it takes him a lot of time to become good. ByuN had the same situation in WoL as he has it now, he was doing bad then he came back and crushed everyone. I do not see any reason to forget about them especially when they are in GSL.
Considering almost every other team has at least 1 championship level player (with the exception of MVP perhaps) Prime is in trouble. Also, when has ByuN ever "crushed everyone"? he had that one lucky season, and then he dropped out of the group stages next season.
So you did not watch GSTL then.
Not everyone can watch everything like you do, Dimano!
So difficult to tell with most players hardly having any exposure last months. I'm not sure it's always safe to assume that having no exposure means a player is likely to be not that great with just how tough it can be to get into GSL/WCS korea. Still SKT must be the clear favorite, only team with 3 s-class players I think. Again it's sad to see how many fantastic players will not be competing in pro league. It's sad that players like Jaedong, Taeja, Innovation, Dear and several others won't compete. For some it's also a huge detriment I think as playing in SPL is probably the best training regiment there is.
I sadly have to agree with your rating of Prime. I don´t think there is any hope for them not finishing last place. They have absolutely nothing up their sleeve to compensate for the departure of Maru. Creator will be able to take some games here and there. But you can´t win pro league with only one player. I don´t really see the reasoning behind skipping the last GSTL, when they even had Maru still on their roster to pull something off and participating now in pro league, which runs a much worse format for a small squad like theirs, without him and probably any hope of success. D: I hope they win at least one match per round. But even that will be very hard for them. They were the best team in the world in the first third of 2012. And now there is nothing left but nice memories D:
Samsung Electronics was willing to pay the big bucks to acquire team MVP's championship winning LoL squads and put them under the GALAXY banner, but their SC2 squad was not lucky enough to receive some of that dirty smartphone money.
:o It's not dirty because there fones are awesomeeeeez and TVs and sponsor the best football team in da worldz
Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
On December 17 2013 03:24 opisska wrote: Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
On December 17 2013 01:58 mrRoflpwn wrote: poor prime. Not a single champion class player on their team.
So if ByuN and Creator did poor this year means that they suddenly are bad players? Creator said that it takes him a lot of time to become good. ByuN had the same situation in WoL as he has it now, he was doing bad then he came back and crushed everyone. I do not see any reason to forget about them especially when they are in GSL.
Considering almost every other team has at least 1 championship level player (with the exception of MVP perhaps) Prime is in trouble. Also, when has ByuN ever "crushed everyone"? he had that one lucky season, and then he dropped out of the group stages next season.
So you did not watch GSTL then.
What has ByuN done in GSTL?
Besides bringing out his puppy I mean, that was cute.
On December 17 2013 03:24 opisska wrote: Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
Nice! But they are not the most actual, as Losira is still listed as teamless Anyway, SKT T1 roster si really insane, but the new teams don't look that bad, if you are reminded of all of their players that never really shone in GSL, but did pretty well in GSTL ...
On December 17 2013 03:24 opisska wrote: Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
Nice! But they are not the most actual, as Losira is still listed as teamless Anyway, SKT T1 roster si really insane, but the new teams don't look that bad, if you are reminded of all of their players that never really shone in GSL, but did pretty well in GSTL ...
On December 17 2013 03:24 opisska wrote: Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
Looking forward to see how Jin Air and SKT1 perform this year. However I feel pretty sad for Prime, at least with Maru, they could have been carry by him, but now... Creator or Kal as their ace player? Ouch, this won't be pretty.
On December 17 2013 03:24 opisska wrote: Is there a possibility to see the final rosters in one place, not just the changes? Would make rating the teams so much easier. Anyway, I think that the the "new" teams are being understimated too much. Yes, the players on the original KeSPA teams may have shown good results and had good record, but essentially against each other - it doesn't really say how they will do against the new teams, as there hasn't been that much room for direct comparision in individual leagues. IM, in particular, has a much better roster than "meh", just counting the players I can remebmer of the top of my head.
On December 17 2013 03:48 KeZman wrote: Looking forward to see how Jin Air and SKT1 perform this year. However I feel pretty sad for Prime, at least with Maru, they could have been carry by him, but now... Creator or Kal as their ace player? Ouch, this won't be pretty.
The team needs 3 wins to win a game Prime has Creator, GooJila and ByuN so they are not as bad as you think.
On December 17 2013 03:48 KeZman wrote: Looking forward to see how Jin Air and SKT1 perform this year. However I feel pretty sad for Prime, at least with Maru, they could have been carry by him, but now... Creator or Kal as their ace player? Ouch, this won't be pretty.
Team need 3 wins to win a game Prime has Creator, GooJila and ByuN so they are not as bad as you think.
If Creator, Kal and Byun were to play Sora, Hydra and Effort in that order, would you bet your life on Prime ever making it? The Bo5 format lets all the teams with S-class players field their aces in the first three matches and win straight up against weaker team a lot of the time. Would you bet on Prime against a line-up of sOs, Maru and Cure/Climax/Pigbaby? Or Parting/Rain/Soulkey? The problem for Prime is that if the match-ups in any match they play in are bad for them, they might straight up lose before even having time to play Creator/Kal/Byun, which isn't a comfortable spot to be in.
On December 17 2013 03:48 KeZman wrote: Looking forward to see how Jin Air and SKT1 perform this year. However I feel pretty sad for Prime, at least with Maru, they could have been carry by him, but now... Creator or Kal as their ace player? Ouch, this won't be pretty.
Team need 3 wins to win a game Prime has Creator, GooJila and ByuN so they are not as bad as you think.
If Creator, Kal and Byun were to play Sora, Hydra and Effort in that order, would you bet your life on Prime ever making it? The Bo5 format lets all the teams with S-class players field their aces in the first three matches and win straight up against weaker team a lot of the time. Would you bet on Prime against a line-up of sOs, Maru and Cure/Climax/Pigbaby? Or Parting/Rain/Soulkey? The problem for Prime is that if the match-ups in any match they play in are bad for them, they might straight up lose before even having time to play Creator/Kal/Byun, which isn't a comfortable spot to be in.
I just wanted to say that Prime has chances but I wrote somewhere that Prime will be something like 2 wins 1 loss for their trio, there will be no such order that 3 ace players will meet 3 ace players it will be like 2 or 1 of them meets ace and others meet regulars like Bunny or Bong where they have chances which will lead to a sitatuon like I said 2 wins 1 loss for their trio or vice versa and their overall win will depend on their trio to win all matches or on (if 2 wins 1 loss) their regular (Eins, Splendid) required 1 win.
I don't think it'll necessarily happen, but teams could field their three best players whenever they play Prime and hope that they didn't. I think Prime's greatest disadvantage is their lack of wiggle room against most teams. Should they risk fielding their weaker players first, chances are they'll be demolished. It's not going to happen every match, it literally never does, but they're in a really tough spot let's not fool ourselves.
Feel so bad with PRIME as they are now, I honestly hope they can find a way to not stay dead last this season, don't even care if they get stuck at 7th place either.
I want KT to win now they got Ty so Flash isn't alone as their Terran player, they could have pulled a SKT/Jin Air GW and tried signing some big names. At least KT still got a good Protoss lineup so they can just play Flash/Ty/Stats/Zest/Puzzle all the time until hitman, Action, and Crazy come up to par.
On December 17 2013 04:10 yoshi245 wrote: Feel so bad with PRIME as they are now, I honestly hope they can find a way to not stay dead last this season, don't even care if they get stuck at 7th place either.
I want KT to win now they got Ty so Flash isn't alone as their Terran player, they could have pulled a SKT/Jin Air GW and tried signing some big names. At least KT still got a good Protoss lineup so they can just play Flash/Ty/Stats/Zest/Puzzle all the time until hitman, Action, and Crazy come up to par.
On December 17 2013 04:10 yoshi245 wrote: Feel so bad with PRIME as they are now, I honestly hope they can find a way to not stay dead last this season, don't even care if they get stuck at 7th place either.
I want KT to win now they got Ty so Flash isn't alone as their Terran player, they could have pulled a SKT/Jin Air GW and tried signing some big names. At least KT still got a good Protoss lineup so they can just play Flash/Ty/Stats/Zest/Puzzle all the time until hitman, Action, and Crazy come up to par.
On December 17 2013 04:14 Keeemy wrote: Some Korean esports site had the same roster for KT as DiMano's list, so both Puzzle and Crazy have left the team (both most likely retired).
can you give a link plz I check korean sites everyday but still nothing
And with Ty being their only recent signing, feels like KT might be scaling down if it is true even if the 2 players themselves decided to quit/retire on their own and not by any pressure from KT.
On December 17 2013 04:14 Keeemy wrote: Some Korean esports site had the same roster for KT as DiMano's list, so both Puzzle and Crazy have left the team (both most likely retired).
can you give a link plz I check korean sites everyday but still nothing
It was some article about SKT and KT. They weren't stated as official rosters I guess so take it with a grain of salt.
On December 17 2013 04:21 yoshi245 wrote: Nooooo, sad if true.
And with Ty being their only recent signing, feels like KT might be scaling down if it is true even if the 2 players themselves decided to quit/retire on their own and not by any pressure from KT.
Pretty sure a lot more of their players left. The list I saw didn't have players like HoeJJa, Barracks and Cacia for example...
On December 17 2013 04:14 Keeemy wrote: Some Korean esports site had the same roster for KT as DiMano's list, so both Puzzle and Crazy have left the team (both most likely retired).
can you give a link plz I check korean sites everyday but still nothing
It was some article about SKT and KT. They weren't stated as official rosters I guess so take it with a grain of salt.
On December 17 2013 04:21 yoshi245 wrote: Nooooo, sad if true.
And with Ty being their only recent signing, feels like KT might be scaling down if it is true even if the 2 players themselves decided to quit/retire on their own and not by any pressure from KT.
Pretty sure a lot more of their players left. The list I saw didn't have players like HoeJJa, Barracks and Cacia for example...
Haha it was an article I had posted in other thread
On December 17 2013 04:14 Keeemy wrote: Some Korean esports site had the same roster for KT as DiMano's list, so both Puzzle and Crazy have left the team (both most likely retired).
can you give a link plz I check korean sites everyday but still nothing
It was some article about SKT and KT. They weren't stated as official rosters I guess so take it with a grain of salt.
On December 17 2013 04:21 yoshi245 wrote: Nooooo, sad if true.
And with Ty being their only recent signing, feels like KT might be scaling down if it is true even if the 2 players themselves decided to quit/retire on their own and not by any pressure from KT.
Pretty sure a lot more of their players left. The list I saw didn't have players like HoeJJa, Barracks and Cacia for example...
Haha it was an article I had posted in other thread
Rofl yeah probably was. I can't even remember the site anymore. Dailygame possibly?
Wait no, Inven! If I remember right the article had the full roster (same as what Liquipedia shows) for SKT1, so that's why I think it was the full roster for KT as well.
On December 17 2013 04:43 Schelim wrote: good writeup but do you really think Fantasy is an "ace level player"?
Fantasy, in my book, is the definition of a potential ace level player - the kind of player that Bomber also used to be - insanely strong in one or several aspects, hilariously weak in others.
On December 17 2013 04:43 Schelim wrote: good writeup but do you really think Fantasy is an "ace level player"?
Fantasy, in my book, is the definition of a potential ace level player - the kind of player that Bomber also used to be - insanely strong in one or several aspects, hilariously weak in others.
Fantasy is definitely one of the more interesting players in Proleague. Will be super exciting to see if iloveoov's touch can bring him to his proper BW-like levels.
guys can you tell me why parting lost vs maru? just interested, last time parting raped him and i think parting=better player atm (ok maybe bit biased)
On December 17 2013 05:08 prOPOns wrote: guys can you tell me why parting lost vs maru? just interested, last time parting raped him and i think parting=better player atm (ok maybe bit biased)
On December 17 2013 05:08 prOPOns wrote: guys can you tell me why parting lost vs maru? just interested, last time parting raped him and i think parting=better player atm (ok maybe bit biased)
BUT TELL ME :D
lol parting hardly raped maru last time, and you are clearly biased
On December 17 2013 00:29 GoodSirTets wrote: Skt looking beastmode this season. I don't get why prime is even in the league with such a crippled roster, it would be way more competitive to have startale in the league
It is simple Startale is not there because it is not kespa team. Prime is there because it is kespa team.
On December 17 2013 05:08 prOPOns wrote: guys can you tell me why parting lost vs maru? just interested, last time parting raped him and i think parting=better player atm (ok maybe bit biased)
BUT TELL ME :D
A lot biased. Not that I'm not biased towards Maru
On December 17 2013 01:40 DiMano wrote: This thread should be done after the official roster announcemet. KeSPA: Shark (Samsung KHAN) FaKe (Samsung KHAN) Guilty (Samsung KHAN) SpeeD (Samsung KHAN) hOpe (Samsung KHAN) oDin (Samsung KHAN) Swift (Woongjin Stars) Motive (KT Rolster) Puzzle (KT Rolster) Mind (KT Rolster) BarrackS (KT Rolster) HoeJJa (KT Rolster) Cacia (KT Rolster) Crazy (KT Rolster) Brown (SK Telecom T1) Mercury (SK Telecom T1) JyJ (SK Telecom T1) All these players left their teams so the thread is misleading a lot of people here as they still think that players like Crazy and Puzzle will play. Also it seems that PenguiN joined Prime as he was PenguiN.Prime on DH prelims. All actual rosters are here and it will be updated when the official rosters will be released, all other sites showing actual rosters are wrong: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:DiMano Also plz change Kal -> GooJila and Absolute -> UngNim
HoeJJa and crazy and puzzle too? Oh god, that sucks.
On December 17 2013 04:52 Kasaraki wrote: Samsung's grade looks really happy.
Their fans won't
Samsung has fans?
:p
How should I kill you? SAMSUNG is the best team!!!!!!! Stork, JangBi, RorO, Shine, Reality GOGOGO!!!!! KHAN FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If they really were the best team then Jangbi wouldn't have retired. Hint, it wasn't because he disliked sc2 or whatever reason.
He left cause of salary and January. The team took all the money that he won from second places and they barely gave him a raise everytime that he asked. In addition, January cockblocked Jangbi from every finding out that there were a lot of other teams interested in him. He said that he made 60k in 2009 and only 35k in 2010.
Plus, don't forget that Stork himself is a huge hypocrite too (for example, ages ago he looked down on flash for not playing in PL when he had individual league later that night when Stork himself hadn't done so in past either) <horangnabi> basically samsung gives shitty salary to everyone except stork <horangnabi> and then stork hasa the balls to say stuff like progamer should protect their dignity and not do stuff for money and looking down on afreeca streams lol......
The man has worn a dinosuit and taken shirtless pics of self for photo suits and yet is still like that? Seriously?
On December 17 2013 04:43 Schelim wrote: good writeup but do you really think Fantasy is an "ace level player"?
Fantasy, in my book, is the definition of a potential ace level player - the kind of player that Bomber also used to be - insanely strong in one or several aspects, hilariously weak in others.
I hate reading about SC2 fantasy purely for this reason. I miss when he was the boss. Well, he'll always be the boss in my eyes and even though I don't play SC2 anymore and don't enjoy watching it I'll never miss his games.
On December 17 2013 04:52 Kasaraki wrote: Samsung's grade looks really happy.
Their fans won't
Samsung has fans?
:p
How should I kill you? SAMSUNG is the best team!!!!!!! Stork, JangBi, RorO, Shine, Reality GOGOGO!!!!! KHAN FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If they really were the best team then Jangbi wouldn't have retired. Hint, it wasn't because he disliked sc2 or whatever reason.
He left cause of salary and January. The team took all the money that he won from second places and they barely gave him a raise everytime that he asked. In addition, January cockblocked Jangbi from every finding out that there were a lot of other teams interested in him. He said that he made 60k in 2009 and only 35k in 2010.
Plus, don't forget that Stork himself is a huge hypocrite too (for example, ages ago he looked down on flash for not playing in PL when he had individual league later that night when Stork himself hadn't done so in past either) basically samsung gives shitty salary to everyone except stork and then stork hasa the balls to say stuff like progamer should protect their dignity and not do stuff for money and looking down on afreeca streams lol......
The man has worn a dinosuit and taken shirtless pics of self for photo suits and yet is still like that? Seriously?
the : D grade for samsung confuses me on the one hand im sad that there that far down and are probably going to suck, on the other it look like a smiley face!
Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Oh yeah we saw 0 Prime games and ofc we can say such things out of the blue.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Thanks to MarineKing... Not only that he had so many fans, when he was at his peak, Prime was also the best Team, mainly because he raped everyone. Lot of People are still fans because of that days, but if they don't get some charismatic players or a bit of success back, the amount of fans will rapidly decrease. So it seem like it will be rough season for them, incredibly sad that Maru left, even with him it would've been very difficult. I really hope some kind of miracle happens and saves the day for them...
...In my dreamworld MKP comes back in his old shape and rape everyone^^
On December 17 2013 00:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: Will be a fun proleague for sure, but i think these rankings are kinda random at this point, we don't really know much about most of the players that didn't play since last proleague and with the bo5 format a team needs only 2-3 strong players and can still do great (even if it is obviously better if you have more ).
These aren't "rankings" for teams, it's a grade for the off season moves and has nothing to do with rankings. A team could have an A+ offseason before the season starts and still finish in the bottom half of the standings, that's just the nature of the game. So really you're looking at these offseason grades the complete wrong way if you think this is somehow a ranking or prediction of where teams will finish.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Thanks to MarineKing... Not only that he had so many fans, when he was at his peak, Prime was also the best Team, mainly because he raped everyone. Lot of People are still fans because of that days, but if they don't get some charismatic players or a bit of success back, the amount of fans will rapidly decrease. So it seem like it will be rough season for them, incredibly sad that Maru left, even with him it would've been very difficult. I really hope some kind of miracle happens and saves the day for them...
...In my dreamworld MKP comes back in his old shape and rape everyone^^
Well apparently someone on reddit said MKP is coming back (cited Byun's stream). I don't know the validity of it, but it's not the most surprising move given how irrelevant (not that I expected him to jump straight to the top) he's been in LoL.
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Sorry we arent all bandwagon fans and stay loyal to our team?
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Now that my favorite and one of the oldest teams -Woongjin Stars- has abandoned, I hope the best for CJ in the upcoming season. After all I'm a Zerg player, and how can you not like a team that has forged exciting players like Savior, Kwanro, Oversky and Effort...
PS. My heart will also be with Kal.Prime. May he carry the team as Jaedong once did Lecaf aka Hwaseung Oz.
If someone can break the SKT Zerg tradition, it should be Soulkey. If he can't, I will pack my stuff, fly to Korea and do a femen style topless protest during a live proleague match. I have decent manboobs.
On December 18 2013 05:39 il_Cattivo wrote: If someone can break the SKT Zerg tradition, it should be Soulkey. If he can't, I will pack my stuff, fly to Korea and do a femen style topless protest during a live proleague match. I have decent manboobs.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
Thanks to MarineKing... Not only that he had so many fans, when he was at his peak, Prime was also the best Team, mainly because he raped everyone. Lot of People are still fans because of that days, but if they don't get some charismatic players or a bit of success back, the amount of fans will rapidly decrease. So it seem like it will be rough season for them, incredibly sad that Maru left, even with him it would've been very difficult. I really hope some kind of miracle happens and saves the day for them...
...In my dreamworld MKP comes back in his old shape and rape everyone^^
Well apparently someone on reddit said MKP is coming back (cited Byun's stream). I don't know the validity of it, but it's not the most surprising move given how irrelevant (not that I expected him to jump straight to the top) he's been in LoL.
Oh please, let it be true! Though Prime still need good toss if they want to compete in PvProleague. And atm it looks kind of grim for them.
Maru, sOs, and Soulkey moving teams really shifts the power spectrum of the teams around. I still think Incredibly Miracle will do well as they are one of my favorite teams.
Btw, what happened to Legend after he left Startale and formed Team Epik? Any news on player signings?
On December 18 2013 06:32 Apollo_Shards wrote: EGTL was the best last season so eager to see how this pans out.
EG-TL would have done really well if Proleague started a few months back, but now there are too many problems.. Taeja is having wrist issues again so he's out. EG let aLive, Oz, and Revival go. HerO is training with the IM house now and has fallen into a slight slump.
On December 18 2013 02:28 ssxsilver wrote: Well apparently someone on reddit said MKP is coming back (cited Byun's stream). I don't know the validity of it, but it's not the most surprising move given how irrelevant (not that I expected him to jump straight to the top) he's been in LoL.
That would be one of the best things that could happen to starcraft...
But he would have a hard time to fullfill the expectations. He would have to change a lot to become one of the top players again, but even if he would never manage to do that, i would just be happy to see him back
On December 18 2013 02:28 ssxsilver wrote: Well apparently someone on reddit said MKP is coming back (cited Byun's stream). I don't know the validity of it, but it's not the most surprising move given how irrelevant (not that I expected him to jump straight to the top) he's been in LoL.
That would be one of the best things that could happen to starcraft...
But he would have a hard time to fullfill the expectations. He would have to change a lot to become one of the top players again, but even if he would never manage to do that, i would just be happy to see him back
MKP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are totally right and it will give a bit of confidence to Prime in proleague just a bit.
Sometimes you need a break, step back and get your mind off things. When Jaedong didn´t play the game around the last turn of the year, he returned to start his rise to power. Then again, he´s Jaedong and mindset has always been MKP´s weakness.
Looking forward to see how the terrans do this season! Obv big names like Flash and Fantasy though I wish fanta started kicking ass he is so entertaining! My personal favourite to watch is TY hope he has a great season always liked him but so much unrealised potential :/ Then players like Bunny and BravO hope they develop their talents! Wish it was bo7 or 9 to few spots for rookies and talents T_T And then theres the solid terrans like reality and Byong etc. Hope ByuN makes a comeback!
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
funny, i'd've said that about bomber fans too for a long, long time.
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
funny, i'd've said that about bomber fans too for a long, long time.
funny how he's still much more accomplished than all of Prime together
On December 17 2013 22:38 VisonKai wrote: Something about Samsung turning into NS Hoseo just makes me very depressed.
Also Prime turning into ace is actually fitting even though it's really sad. Their number of fans is ridiculously disproportionate to how good they are.
funny, i'd've said that about bomber fans too for a long, long time.
so pumped for proleague!!!! SKT SKT SKT SKT SKT SKT :D
i dont really like the state of prime, IM, and MVP at the moment.. i wish StarTale or EGLiquid would be there instead. I hope their fortunes change for the better throughout the season and onto next season.
oh god fucking damnit Bomber. i knew i should have called in sick today. if i had watched i'm sure he would've won. were the games good at least?
someone sure sounds disappointed, wonder who?
I have nothing against bomber fans, but I surely dislike prime antifans
lmao. i have nothing against Prime, in fact i used to be a fan when they still had MKP and Byun was kinda relevant. but let's be honest, they're bout to become absorbed by some other team pretty soon.
On December 19 2013 11:13 Champi wrote: so pumped for proleague!!!! SKT SKT SKT SKT SKT SKT :D
i dont really like the state of prime, IM, and MVP at the moment.. i wish StarTale or EGLiquid would be there instead. I hope their fortunes change for the better throughout the season and onto next season.
What's not to like about IM's position? They have Trap, HerO, Squirtle, Yongwha, and First, so their protoss lineup is going to be absolutely sick in PvProleague. Plus Mvp and YoDa for Terran depth. If they pick up another Zerg to back up ByuL (maybe hyvaa since SouL disbanded?) they would easily be playoff caliber.