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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 07:29 mTwTT1 wrote:
edit: and if ur going to accuse someone of hacking through gameplay ur going to have to analyse more than 7 replays, even if he looks like the biggest hacker in those 7 games its not a big enought sample. u need analyse like 100 replays
I dont think you even know what "biggest hacker" looks like. Or are you just stupid? Either way its some faulty logic you got there buddy.
User was warned for this post
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This event kind of reminds me of the South Park episode where they sacrificed some pop star for "harvest".
Then they were getting ready to groom and raise the next pop star to be sacrificed.
For the sake of drama and entertainment, it seems like the community is simply obligated to sacrifice someone to the gods once in a while. We might not literally pull their heart out like the Aztecs, but killing them metaphorically seems to appease someone.
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That camera block thing would be a pretty big proof, and never looking at the fog of war seems pretty unlikely as well (even if it's possible). But I just quickly watched 2 of the replays and as you can see in the screenshots below, or in the replays by yourselves, he clearly DOES look at some places where he doesn't have any vision without his camera being blocked.
+ Show Spoiler +
The thing I didn't see though (but I didn't watch all the replay and skipped through those two) is him looking at the fog of war at a place where any of his units never went before. But that's not a proof anyway. As for the few times where his camera seemed blocked, he was always macroing or switching between groups, I haven't seen a totaly frozen screen (for the parts I checked).
So yeah there's some pretty wierd moves, but nothing that proves that he definitly hacked from what I've seen.
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The pure and simple fact is the only sure fire way of knowing if someone is hacking is:
1. Blizzards Anti-Cheat (Warden) bans the player for hacking
2. If they were dumb enough to try and hack at a lan.
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This is really dumb. He's not gonna go to MLG or whatever and start maphacking on their computers. It's up to Blizzard to get real anti-cheat systems, it's up to people intent on calling him guilty to prove that, and it's up to somebody to close this thread before it blows up and another person is victimized by random bronze witch-hunters.
Somewhere out there, a confused unemployed person is e-mailing sponsors about this. Just think about that for a second.
Also, throwing my hat in for the 'conspiracy' side:
"for those of you who don't know, the latest maphacks on the internet block your camera on the last place visited when u are looking at some place u haven't got ANY kind of vision on, so that if people watch the replays they don't find it so evident that you are hacking"
With 1 post, it seems like the maker of a maphack trying to get some free testing done by the community (at Spades' expense)
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On June 05 2012 07:38 Supercilium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:29 mTwTT1 wrote:
edit: and if ur going to accuse someone of hacking through gameplay ur going to have to analyse more than 7 replays, even if he looks like the biggest hacker in those 7 games its not a big enought sample. u need analyse like 100 replays I dont think you even know what "biggest hacker" looks like. Or are you just stupid? Either way its some faulty logic you got there buddy.
His logic works just fine. You need more than seven games to suggest meaningfully if someone is a hacker. Spades watched Lucifron's games against Thorzain so he could predict the openings on the maps.
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375 Posts
such a shame in both that he isn't as pro at the highest levels with an advantage, and that he uses cheats.
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so basically what i learned from this thread is that if you do a lot of actions via the minimap, even if its a superior method (for you), you should stop because people will call you hacker and invent terms like "camera lock" to ruin your career.
good fucking job OP.
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It's suspicious, but no hard proof. Even if he did hack, he won't do it anymore for sure. You have to find some replays that will show hacking clearly. The best would be his games vs unknown players, where hadn't been able to study their play before the match and know what to expect.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 07:33 Caelyn0101 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:29 mTwTT1 wrote:
if theres no concrete proof of him hacking then the OP deserves to be banned for life because this is the worse thing that u can do to a player, i still didnt get a chance to look over the posts/replays but if its true then spades's professional career is pretty much fucked and even if hes not hacking the damage has been done to his image, tournament organizers will never invite him to a showmatch after seeing something like this
dont post threads like this unless ur 100% sure that u have concrete evidence(i.e: ingame action proofs), u can suspect someone of hacking through gameplay alone but thats not enought evidence, its just a good starting point to start a case against someone
edit: and if ur going to accuse someone of hacking through gameplay ur going to have to analyse more than 7 replays, even if he looks like the biggest hacker in those 7 games its not a big enought sample. u need analyse like 100 replays Thanks Brood War hacker, after all you truly are an expert on hacking. User was temp banned for this post. I dont like TT1, (for the simple fact that i quoted and mimiced something he said and only i got banned.) but dude, be quiet.
Good luck spades, i havent watched the replays but you have people on both sides, pro's and n00b posters, its very difficult to distinguish.
All i can suggest is you post a shed-ton of recent replays. (Ones following this incident wont cut it.)
Dont know what to think
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Some players have a good scouting like Stephano and can get immediately the correct answer, others like Sjow rely more on a crafted build in order to force the opponent to do something expected and others have 'the star sense' or simply an amazing streak of good luck.
In any case people should seriously consider the OP and Illusion's posts.
Guess that Spades needs to learn from Nerchio, since he is way more skilled.
edit: at formatting and explaining what happened with his posts, obviously.
Guess he was quite hasty.
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On June 05 2012 07:35 CptCutter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:27 paintfive wrote:On June 05 2012 06:18 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:16 Gardel wrote:On June 05 2012 06:14 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 06:09 iNcontroL wrote:
tbh spades you do play super fishy >_< I played that game recently against you and said basically "wtf this is very hackish" and you said "I play you on my smurf a lot and knew you'd do that" which is USUALLY the #1 "I hack and this is how I will defend myself ambiguously" statement.
I'm no hack expert so I will leave this to those that are but you need to know.. it isn't just a few people that have felt odd about your online game play. ddddddd
If you aren't hacking this is unfortunate but the sins of hacking (even in the past) will always impact you. If you are hacking it's pretty over... 90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Ey man, if you know you really did not hack, then why quit? I know your image will be affected but, you gotta move on there are good days and bad days in life. If you are honest withyourself and to the community, then you should not let this affect you. I'm trying to make a career of this, If people think im a cheater, they wont watch me, they wont get lessons from me. I wont get invites. Shit like this tarnishes you, how am i supposed to make money, Next time I do well in something, they will just call me a cheater again. I dealt with this in Broodwar I know how the community is. Unless someone magically makes a program to ACTUALLY DETECT HACKS, i will never been actually proven innocent. I wish this was BW days and they had the hack scanner tt. Like someone before me said, post all your replays. i dare you to go ask MVP or Nestea or MC to post all of their replays to prove they are not hackers. asking a progamer to post their replays is completely unfair, its the same as asking an international standard rugby or american football team to post all of their strategys to the world.
I don't think even Spades thinks his builds and startegies are highly sought secrets.
And people do not accuse truly great players, with consistent results.
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Its pretty evident that he wasnt hacking.
What I find more sad is some of the posts made by pros in this thread.
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What i don't get is the "camera locking." I understand what it is, but when talking about his camera staying in one position for a period of time, Spades says he is "100% not doing anything like that." So is this a bug in replays where the camera gets stuck on a location or is Spades lying?
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Can we get Spades on the SotG happening later? I think he might have a few words to say. Considering the fairly strong defense and the lack of objective evidence to prove he is hacking, it could be a chance for him to regain lost honor (and maybe Incontrol can apologize, to be polite).
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What we should really be asking ourselves is how we have a nearly 30 page thread on someone allegedly hacking, in a showmatch they lost. Fucking EDRAMA -_-
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What a horrible thread: dubious accusations from a one post smurf, insults from members of the old boys club (idra and incontrol) and 4channers like mewbert trying to stir up shit.
I will go back to not caring about Spades as usual (i don't follow the NA ladder) but this is truly the kind of despicable witch-hunt i thought only reddit was capable of.
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On June 05 2012 07:31 -Strider- wrote:I was curious and started to browse Spade's vods. You can see that his camera stays in a place for a good amount of time (more than 5seconds) maybe he is just a slow player... Link
Good point, he barely moves his camera at all while macroing or repositionning his army a lot of the time.
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On June 05 2012 07:38 Supercilium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:29 mTwTT1 wrote:
edit: and if ur going to accuse someone of hacking through gameplay ur going to have to analyse more than 7 replays, even if he looks like the biggest hacker in those 7 games its not a big enought sample. u need analyse like 100 replays I dont think you even know what "biggest hacker" looks like. Or are you just stupid? Either way its some faulty logic you got there buddy.
i hate the rules of tl that forbid me to flame the hell out of this guy. No, his logic isn't faulty, there's not enough stuff to analyse and even if there were you can always find an excuse for all these camera stops and similar things, so you will never even come close to proving that he is guilty.
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On June 05 2012 07:42 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
What we should really be asking ourselves is how we have a nearly 30 page thread on someone allegedly hacking, in a showmatch they lost. Fucking EDRAMA -_-
You'd have to be quite naive to think a hacker couldn't lose... IdrA used to beat impa the GM hacker all the time without even knowing he hacked until iNcontroL said something.
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