Any GSL map would be an improvement really. If they did add one GSL map. we should have a liquibet for where they were on the map going to add the destructible rocks.
I would like to have Crevasse and Terminus SE in the pool, but I'm afraid to meet zerg on those maps, I have even vetoed Tal'Darim because I used to have like 10% winrate on it... :S
After playing on all of the GSL maps dual sight is by far my most favourite. Rushes are a complete possibility and is just as much of a macro map as a rush map. Very balanced. Has choke for T and P to hold and lots of area for Z to fight in as well. Good third locations for all races. Terminus would be after that, but it seems a little too macro oriented for me. I like to see diversity in play even though sometimes they cheese me and make me mad. Dual sight for certain.
I voted for Bel'Shir. I really think the current ladder pool needs a pleasant looking map for our eyes.
I also think that all maps should definitely have different tilesets (I saw that 2 of the new season 3 maps have the same tilesets with older maps, namely Shakuras-map1 and Scrap Station-map4).
Terminus SE for sure. About Bel'Shir, a good looking map doesn't make up for poor design. If it was a blizzard map, it would be hated by 99% of the community.
I know, it probably gets kinda boring...but has anyone of you (maybe by reading the horrid bnet-forums?) found out why Blizz INSISTS on creating their own, rather terrible, maps instead of just copy-pasting GSL/ICCUP-maps?
Yes, I know, both types are occasionally hated on even by the pros around, but overall the acceptance of these maps still seems to be WAY higher than towards the average blizzard map. It can't be the "noob"-argument, since the one, main thing a noob complains about, is being rushed. There's no denying it, bad players hardly ever complain about getting stomped in lategame by some combo, but complain about getting cheesed (hello 2-player-maps) or getting one-base-all-in-ed. Therefore this argument is out of the question, at the very least when we are NOT talking about super-huge maps like terminus.
Also, why can't Blizz make some sort of official "poll" where it's possible to vote for, say, one small map out of three, one medium-sized-map out of three and one big map out of three after having them online on PTR? Why do they continue to force their maps onto the community regardless of the feedback? I mean, they are capable of producing the most balanced RTS-games by far, they are not stupid/incompetent/etc. Also, making maps themselves surely must take MORE time than simply testing/modifying community-made maps. I simply can't find any logical reason why Blizz has so far only introduced one community-made map (tal darim altar - modified it to make it worse) and doesn't seem to show any interest in adding more.
At this point there's absolutely no excuse for having ladder map pools without all the current tournament/league maps. You know, ones that are actually played competitively.
I personally think Blizzard created a few very good maps: Xel'Naga Caverns, Metalopolis, maybe also Shakuras Plateau and Typhon Peaks(except visuals). They are able to design good maps once in a while, but they clearly can't compete with ALL of the talented map designers in the world.
IMO, they should either hire some great map makers that proved themselves over and over again, or they should predominantly choose community maps for the ladder pool and only impose 1-2 maps of their own.
What I really don't understand is the reason why they want to introduce their own maps so badly, despite the wishes of millions of people. There has to be a good reason behind this stubbornness, but I just fail to see it.
they should add Crevasse and Terminus SE, it would contribute to inceasing the skill of ladder players, making 1 base play much harder and macro style more benefitial. I hope the new maps are going to replace delta/slag/scrap, otherwise i would need more veto's...
On June 21 2011 20:55 GoKu` wrote: There should be different sets of ladder maps, 2. One casual The maps that are already in the pool. One Comeptitive having MLG/GSL/X league maps.
I don't really agree. As a casual player (diamond league, 2-3 games a day) i think that blizzard's map pool is far, far worse than gsl's. There should be one good pool, period. If you are one of the fabled "rush guys" and can't play a proper macro game, you are probably in a fairly low league anyway, so rush distances won't affect your play much if at all.
Terminus SE is probably my most favourite map in SC2 so far, so many amazing games happened on it, especially on the version where there are no Destructible Rocks which version was used in the TSL3.
Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us on Teamliquid, they only cares about the idiots back on Blizzard's own forum.
If Blizzard will continue do put their own maps into ladder with rocks and gold all over the place and maps that ask for 2 base play I sincerely hope iCCup or some other site manage to make another ladder for more competitive play and not the casuals in Bronze like Blizzard likes to put it.
crevasse is nice, but i would prever some iccup maps, but probably because i see them less. It won't happen though, well crevasse would be a good candidate, except for the inbase expansion, blizzard would probably do some changes there because only 1 gas etc xD. probably rocks ! so its delta like
Definitely Crevasse! I doubt Blizzard will add this map though since they want all expansions to have equal amount of minerals. I think thats what they did to Tal'Darim Altar (not sure, correct me if I'm wrong). My second choice would be Terminus SE..nice macro map.
I think blizzard should add a community map every season like they did with taldarim. The gsl maps are really good and definitely better than some ladder maps. Also means blizzard could put more.focus on game design and let community design maps.
I picked belshir because looks amazing and Seems fun, also crevase brought some epic games.
Just kidding, that map can rot somewhere. Crevasse would be nice, Dual Sight could be fun as well. I'm actually not that much of a fan of Terminus. The map is really kinda TOO big for my tastes (this from a zerg player?!) The 3 bases are really, really easy to secure...maybe too easy.
Edit: what about Testbug! That's probably my favorite map out there. Also, it's the only 3 player map that pretty much anyone has played.
Terminus was the obvious choice for me. Maybe bel'shir beach tho ;p Blizzard would be wise to do this as well. Crevasse is alright i guess. Slightly zerg unfavored.. run-bys are good tho.
Crevasse is the best map imo. It has an interesting map layout and expansion pattern. A lot of possibilities for flanking, caching your opponents army and manoevring, as well as harassing/dropping. It is a big map, but it doesn't give 20 min-long-games-nothing-happens-I-don't-move-until-I am-maxed (readTerminus).
Dual sight is also pretty good, because the longer the game goes on, the more your expansions are spread out and vulnerable, making map control very important.
Belshir beach has awesome graphics!
These three maps should definately be added to the map pool!!
Why is there no option for all of them? . Honestly, GSL's map pool is 100000x better and the new Season 3 map pool is terrible. I wish Blizzard would listen to the community. Yet, they think the GSL having a different map pool is a good sign.
Bel'shir Beach for sure. It looks amazing and beautiful. Not to mention there are so many depressing and dark maps in the map pool. A cheerful map would be a nice addition.
Terminus and Crevasse. Belshir beach may not make the cut due to the lack of watch towers - a shame because it is such a pretty map: should be an inspiration to blizzard map makers!
I actually think it's a real problem that the map pool doesn't follow the proscene. I only play the ladder, no customs... but i still want to be able to play on the maps i watch vods on every day. Blizzard really must update the map pool more often and then in the direction of gsl.
I am seriously going to try and find a group to just play customs on GSL/iccup maps with if the season 3 map pool is shaping up the way it seems to be.
Someone should link this thread on the Blizzard forums. I am from EU so I will be able to do so only on EU. But Blizzard may only check US forums as far as I know.
On June 22 2011 03:53 ShnAndrei wrote: Someone should link this thread on the Blizzard forums. I am from EU so I will be able to do so only on EU. But Blizzard may only check US forums as far as I know.
They know what the community wants, it's just not in line with what they want so they choose to ignore us mostly.
On June 22 2011 03:53 ShnAndrei wrote: Someone should link this thread on the Blizzard forums. I am from EU so I will be able to do so only on EU. But Blizzard may only check US forums as far as I know.
They know what the community wants, it's just not in line with what they want so they choose to ignore us mostly.
Damn you Blizzard for not catering to my every whim!
On June 22 2011 03:53 ShnAndrei wrote: Someone should link this thread on the Blizzard forums. I am from EU so I will be able to do so only on EU. But Blizzard may only check US forums as far as I know.
They know what the community wants, it's just not in line with what they want so they choose to ignore us mostly.
Damn you Blizzard for not catering to my every whim!
Well when they list maps like Slag Pits as a "macro map", it gets a tad discouraging.
You know if they put in crevasse, the back expo is going to have 8 patches, 2 geysers, and destructible rocks, right?
I think Blizzard is looking at these GSL maps and trying to take some features that they want, while avoiding some. They are using destructible rocks to shrink a choke (like crevasse) in one map, and having an easy-to-take third that shares a choke with the natural, but has destructible rocks behind it (like terminus). They are just still hesitant to put bases with only 6 mineral patches and 1 geyser. I think they'll eventually have to cave on this, because having less profitable bases opens up possibilities for a lot more interesting maps.
Imo it would be a disgrace if they don't add either Crevasse or Terminus, the community has been asking for it for ages, and if they keep coming out with shit-maps themselves then they kinda have to listen after a while.. Imagine this; Slag pits, Delta Quadrant & Scrap Station out: Crevasse, Terminus and Dual Sight in. That would be such a great map pool, still some blizzard maps, and some maps that we actually see being played in freaking tournaments.
On June 21 2011 20:24 Tofugrinder wrote: blizzard should just take the current GSL mappool and put it into ladder. If they did I'd ladder again
I doubt the current maps are the only reason you don't ladder. By doing this, they would have to do away with some good maps of their own. They just need to add a few.
On June 21 2011 20:30 DNB wrote: I would like to have Crevasse and Terminus SE in the pool, but I'm afraid to meet zerg on those maps, I have even vetoed Tal'Darim because I used to have like 10% winrate on it... :S
I already know on Crevasse there would be rocks blocking your in base nat and on Terminus it would block your 3rd. Also blizzard would make every other base a gold base.
On June 22 2011 04:05 Fyzar wrote: Imo it would be a disgrace if they don't add either Crevasse or Terminus, the community has been asking for it for ages, and if they keep coming out with shit-maps themselves then they kinda have to listen after a while.. Imagine this; Slag pits, Delta Quadrant & Scrap Station out: Crevasse, Terminus and Dual Sight in. That would be such a great map pool, still some blizzard maps, and some maps that we actually see being played in freaking tournaments.
+1 I so much agree with you!! If only Blizzard would listen.
On June 22 2011 03:53 ShnAndrei wrote: Someone should link this thread on the Blizzard forums. I am from EU so I will be able to do so only on EU. But Blizzard may only check US forums as far as I know.
They know what the community wants, it's just not in line with what they want so they choose to ignore us mostly.
Damn you Blizzard for not catering to my every whim!
Well when they list maps like Slag Pits as a "macro map", it gets a tad discouraging.
lol did you guys read about the first map they introduced? they say it is not a rush map and then they say it kinda is.
Bel'Shir Beach or Terminus SE. I believe these two maps produce the best games. Kind of surprised to see Crevasse that high, can't really remember any epic matches that took place on that map.
Terminus SE is excellent. I don't really get the hype around Crevasse, especially because it heavily favors 4gate in PvP. But other than that I don't think it's very interesting, Terminus is a lot better (and I like the tileset more).
i would just be happy if they removed close positions on all of their maps...almost beating a terran on 1 base while he was on 3 because he bunkered my ramp on metal is just frustrating.
start with baby steps not like one day blizzard is going to be like oh yeah we are complete fucking morons we need to change our mindset....you gotta ease them into the light.
Of course, most of the GSL maps are awesome and should be put into ladder, I'm not too sure about Bel'SHir Beach and Crossfire, but the rest are really nice. I'd prefer seeing Dual Sight & Terminus since they seem the most interesting, balanced maps in GSL.
On June 22 2011 04:05 AdAckbar wrote: How about this question. Would you like any blizzard maps in the season 3 map pool... answer.. no
There's a bunch of great Blizzard map, I don't think many want all of them gone.
On June 22 2011 04:36 dani` wrote: Terminus SE is excellent. I don't really get the hype around Crevasse, especially because it heavily favors 4gate in PvP. But other than that I don't think it's very interesting, Terminus is a lot better (and I like the tileset more).
The map looks better than any other GSL map imo and I've seen many good games on it. The design is easy to follow even though it has rotational symetry.
Crevasse or terminus would be amazing. Personally I like Terminus.
Dunno why so many like Bel'Shit (Lol freudian slip mistype, but I left it in), I mean it looks pretty, but the games on it are generally really bad. It just seems like a poor map in general.
If the map they put in was crevasse then i'd change my vote to no for them adding one. Got enough macro maps, need something that's different like crossfire.
Dual Sight, Testbug, and/or Bel'Shir would be completely fine with me.
Bel'Shir, I think, gets a lot of undeserved flak. It has a really readily available third, an accessible fourth, but taking a fifth base will spread you out a lot, meaning that you need map control.
Moreover, a pretty open map. Maybe it's just that the not lolbad alternatives are Typhon, Scrap, Delta, and Shakuras, but I'm all about the open places, and this fulfills that criterion splendidly.
I voted for Crevasse, but all I really want to see are maps where it is pretty easy to take your 3rd, and there's no rocks blocking the expos. If Blizz MUST put rocks on expos, maybe they can do something that Testbug does, where you can build the building, but rocks block mining.
If I had a vote to see what map were to be removed from GSL it would be Bel'Shir. I like what he did with the tile sets, but I really really don't like the map.
Dual Sight is probably my favorite of the GSL maps.
I would love to see them all in the map pool However I voted for Bel'Shir Beach. 2nd to 4th place: 2. Terminus SE 3. Dual Sight 4.Cravasse Havent played enough games on Crossfire and XN Fortress to give an opinion.
But Please if you do take any one of these - dont put rocks to block the 3rd base -_-
I don't like this idea of "We need macro, macro, macro, macro, macro games are the only real games, if it didn't last 15+ minutes and we didn't max out, it didn't count." CC first vs Nexus first is not fun. It just takes everything 2/3 minutes longer to happen.
The game has calmed down to where FEs are viable on just about every map in the pool. Plus, who wants to play a game where you know 100% you will be safe for the first 5 minutes?
I would be okay with Belshir Beach as 1v1 maps are really starting to die out.
Terminus and Crevasse pleeeeease. Xel Naga Fortress is pretty good lookin' to. Backwater Gulch, Scrap Station, Slag Pist and Delta Quadrant are all just fucking god awful compared these maps. Not Bel'shir beach .. it's pretty unbalanced IMO. Looks puurty though.
On June 22 2011 02:34 Wolf wrote: I can't see a reason why Terminus shouldn't be in the ladder map pool.
Obviously because you can take a third on that map
I lol'd hard.
I voted for Terminus, although Blizzard refuses to make cheese less viable. And there's no way in hell they'll see this, they only read (and sometimes respond...) to the official forums, and if you've ever accidentally ended up there one day, you'll know it's absolutely disgusting how moronic people are. Go read the most popular threads right now, anyone who reads this, I dare you. You will question why these people should be allowed to take up Earth's oxygen.
Obviously that's a bit rough, but seriously, TL is the community with the most...sensible people, idiots on the official forums don't know what they want, nor capable of expressing rational thought.
On June 22 2011 06:34 Clog wrote: Crevasse is a *little* overrated in my opinion, even though it's definitely better than a lot of the Blizzard maps. I'd like to see Dual Sight.
Personally, I think people like Crevasse because it is a map that has FEW kinky, goofy stuff on it. The rocks blocking parts of the ramp is a great idea, this aside the map is very straightforward with the easy natural and key center location.
I enjoy Crevasse. I've played many games against friends on this epic map, and even encorporated it into the online tournament I sometimes have.
However, I would personally choose to have Testbug in the map pool, because it's one of the most fun maps I have played to date. The 3 possible spawns give an interesting feel to the map, and prevents cases of "splitting the map in half" which are often seen in maps like Shakuras and Metalopolis. All races have great macro options, as well as air and/or sneaky options on this map. Blizzard would receive +3 rep (max possible in 1 action) from me if they were to put it in the map pool :D
I love the idea of putting in bel'shir beach - it's not a ginormous macro map the way taldarim, crevasse, terminus are, but it's still a really nicely made map with some pretty interesting features.
I seem to be the one of the only people that doesn't enjoy playing on Bel'Shir Beach. I like it a lot, no doubt. I love watching matches on that map. But playing it.... not so much fun.
Sure, Dual Sight would be cool, I guess. TBH though I think our community's maps are overlooked -- there are a ton of innovative, balanced and nicely sized (ie between steppes and crevasse) maps that never see tournament or ladder exposure.
On June 22 2011 06:33 RHMVNovus wrote: Dual Sight, Testbug, and/or Bel'Shir would be completely fine with me.
Bel'Shir, I think, gets a lot of undeserved flak. It has a really readily available third, an accessible fourth, but taking a fifth base will spread you out a lot, meaning that you need map control.
Moreover, a pretty open map. Maybe it's just that the not lolbad alternatives are Typhon, Scrap, Delta, and Shakuras, but I'm all about the open places, and this fulfills that criterion splendidly.
Bel'shar is a PvZ NIGHTMARE! everything is so wide open that zerg can hit and run with very little to stop them. If it ever got in it be a insta down vote for me
It would be a bad idea to include Terminus into the ladder pool. Imagine how bronze league games will look like in that map. Players turtling up like nothing else on three easily defendable bases. Those games would be boring and frustrating. I guess something similar would happen in Silver league. Terminus is a great map for mid and high level players, but not for beginners. Perhaps something similar can be said of Cravasse.
It would be nice to see Blizzard modifying the map pool by allowing for league specific maps. The idea would be that if you are in a certain league you will be able to play in maps that are not in the pool for other leagues. Some map overlap would be needed (for promotion purposes), but nothing more than that. This way players from (let's say) plat up could play in maps like Crevasse and Terminus, while players in Silver and Bronze could have maps that are better given their skill level.
Crevasse definitely. Terminus i wouldn't mind but i doubt blizz will put in such a macro oriented map in the ladder. Belshir beach has some balance issues and to be honest i dont really like the tileset.
The blizzard map pool has only three types of maps: a small 1v1 (Xel'naga), a couple of 4 player medium size maps and a big 4 player GSL map (tal darim altar).
Bel shire beach is a big 1v1 map which is lacking Crevasse is needed because tal darim is the only big 4 player map
On July 20 2011 05:26 FireFish wrote: 97% of people voting yes and still no GSL map. I find it kind of funny actually.
That's a thousand people out of how many hundreds of thousands of players?
I'd like Bel'Shir Beach, honestly. It's hella cool. Really I'd just like for Blizzard to put in more GSL maps. The idea of overlapping league specific map pools above was a solid compromise to the league specific map pools I've seen constant calls for. It easily covers the promotion problems I saw with the earlier ideas, and it keeps the noobs like me in mind.
Honestly, any number of GSL maps would be awesome. Hell, if they didn't want any "non-Blizzard" maps, just have the GSL map makers create "Blizzard" maps for them and tell everyone they're "Blizzard" maps. GSL obviously knows what's up with their maps. Blizzard balances, GSL creates maps. Gogogo.
I want crevasse but I want the protected natural to have 2 regular gas geyers instead of 1 rich geyser just because I think the map architecture already favors terran enough that they don't need any additional help on that particular board.
As a protoss I hate bel`shir beach. Played on it several times and it feels like a heavily zerg favored map
How many times is a thread like this made? Are the people making these threads just looking to have a 5+ page thread under their belt? Are they trying to increase their post count (like I)?
Yeah i really wish they was a standard map pool or at least 10 standard (and changing regurlaly) maps between all tournaments and ladder. I hate the way most maps you ladder on aren't played by any tournament :> (not that i'd want tournaments to use the current ladder maps lol)
Xelnaga Fortress and Dual Sight are the maps I'd like to see the most,pretty balanced for all races,not too big of a rush distance but not too small either. I find Belshir Beach too Zerg favored in both match-ups,while Crossfire is just weird and forces unique strategies. I don't think that maps like Terminus/Crevasse (and Taldarim for the matter),with their enormous size are good for the ladder,or competitive play in general.
Graphically it seems like Belshir might be a bit rough for people with poor quality computers but i wouldn't want to see another 4 player map since basically all the new one's are 4 player. Either dual sight or Xel'naga Fortress!
On July 20 2011 10:33 Ertu wrote: Xelnaga Fortress and Dual Sight are the maps I'd like to see the most,pretty balanced for all races,not too big of a rush distance but not too small either. I find Belshir Beach too Zerg favored in both match-ups,while Crossfire is just weird and forces unique strategies. I don't think that maps like Terminus/Crevasse (and Taldarim for the matter),with their enormous size are good for the ladder,or competitive play in general.
I smell a cheeser.
Big maps almost always result in better, longer and more epic games where the more skilled players wins.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
Past imbalances don't justify current imbalances.
There are countless current imbalances too. And Belshir is nothing like as Zerg favoured as Close Spawns is, it's no more Zerg favoured than XNC is towards Protoss.
Gotta go with Bel'shir, there aren't enough good 1v1 maps in the pool. Also I don't really like backdoor expansions that much which is why I didn't vote for Crevasse.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
Past imbalances don't justify current imbalances.
There are countless current imbalances too. And Belshir is nothing like as Zerg favoured as Close Spawns is, it's no more Zerg favoured than XNC is towards Protoss.
I don't know how you think XNC would be Protoss favored.
On June 21 2011 20:27 Teim wrote: Bel'Shir Beach for sure. It's just so nice to look at, hitting that map on a bad run of losses would sure put me in a good mood.
Every Zerg would like Bel'Shir to be in the pool as well rofl.
Well Zergs had to put up with close spawns, lost temple, jungle basin, slag pits, delta quadrant, scrap station. Why shouldn't there be a Zerg favoured map? We've had plenty Terran/Protoss favoured maps.
Past imbalances don't justify current imbalances.
There are countless current imbalances too. And Belshir is nothing like as Zerg favoured as Close Spawns is, it's no more Zerg favoured than XNC is towards Protoss.
I don't know how you think XNC would be Protoss favored.
I really hope it's not crevasse, I'll veto it, Nestea and Losira agree with me so it's not because I am a noob XD
I was hoping for a 1x1 map like Dual Sight, specially because it is not that big nor that small, so no one will veto it and we could play on it quite often. I have no doubt it is the best option Blizzard have (from GSL map pool).
On July 20 2011 11:27 SDream wrote: I really hope it's not crevasse, I'll veto it, Nestea and Losira agree with me so it's not because I am a noob XD
I was hoping for a 1x1 map like Dual Sight, specially because it is not that big nor that small, so no one will veto it and we could play on it quite often. I have no doubt it is the best option Blizzard have (from GSL map pool).
Even if Crevasse it's not the greatest Zerg map. It's better than most in the current pool.
EPT
. Honestly, GSL's map pool is 100000x better and the new Season 3 map pool is terrible. I wish Blizzard would listen to the community. Yet, they think the GSL having a different map pool is a good sign.
