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On June 13 2011 05:40 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +Design is hard
Designing stuff is hard. Designing games is hard, designing thermostats is hard, designing web sites is hard. I think all of us will generally agree that this stuff is hard. But many people don’t know why it’s hard.
One of the reasons designing stuff is so hard is because there are no solutions to any problems, at least not in a larger, systemic view.
(etc) Completely agree. When I read the OP's "Blizzard is out of touch", my first thought was "most likely you don't know all the factor that influence their design". If tournament maps are perfectly balanced for pro players, and ladder maps are better for the less skilled player, including myself, I have no problems with that.
This is an interesting point you bring up. Why can't pro players and competitive players have a different map pool than lower tier players?
You have stated that tournaments, thus pro and competitive players, playing on different maps than you a lower tier player do is ok. The issue with having different map pools is it makes it difficult for lower players to progress. They learn things that do not work at a higher level, they are unable to play higher end players because of the difference in maps, and this makes it harder on players looking to improve.
The sad thing is we basically have separate map pools already because of the large difference in ladder maps and tournament maps. Players looking to get better who ladder a lot are deprived of the opportunity to play on maps used in most tournaments.
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On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago.  Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW.
First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game.
Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids...
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On June 13 2011 05:24 shmoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 04:55 Voltaire wrote:On June 12 2011 17:44 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
Pros will always complain because all they care about is winning, and not the game. Other than Idra close to no pros complain at all. 99% of the complaining comes from gold league and below, tbh. You are both wrong to a degree. I do agree that most of the whining comes from casual players who think they are good, but there are plenty of pros who will complain about balance. I cannot think of any that do it on the level that Idra does, but there are plenty that do it. Examples could include: The Brotoss party on SotG a few weeks ago Jinro has made some statements about balance on his stream MC has said zerg is op. I believe MVP said terran was weak. A lot of it is likely just venting due to frustration, but plenty of pros complain about balance at some point.
That Brotoss party was a total joke, by the way. No one ACTUALLY thought Protoss was underpowered in that episode; they were just trolling all the zergs.
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they could probably stand to be a little more responsive, or maybe give more insight into why they take their time with certain changes. but the fact of the matter is, it's their game. they invested the budget into their game and made the product, and it's their responsibility to think of the long term survival of their product. if it looks "authoritarian" to you, it's probably because blizzard doesn't want to put a bunch of fidgety nerds that are nostalgic for a 12 year old game in the driver's seat of their huge investment. getting feedback from pro players is not the same thing as acquiescing to every little complaint they have, cos here's the facts: most of these people aren't game designers. they're good at a game that already exists cos they're talented at playing games, but when they make suggestions, it all looks remarkably like brood war. it's easy enough to make balance suggestions when they're all identical to a game that already exists. i can't say if i were in browder's shoes i wouldn't take all the whining with a huge, huge grain of salt.
bottom line is, while blizzard are no doubt passionate about their products, they're a business and they can't risk jumping just because you said jump.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
LOL I come now and then and watch threads like these, guys balance will go from one place to the other for a few years, dont complaint, give feedback. WoL era is coming to its final stages, HotS will come, shit will change, we knew this from the start if we look at all blizzard games even Diablo II changed a lot when LoD came out. So did SC when BW hit shelves. This won't be any different. Balance will find a way to drift into place and if you think when new units come into play new balance problems wont emerge you're in for a surprise.
Yes maybe the guys in charge of balancing is not what we wanted but at least they have experience, and don't say they don't listen to the community because you know they do. I say we continue to give feedback and stop whining about balance atm which isnt that bad at all and start whining about things we should've fucking had since release. Like B.net 2.0 being a crock of shit, and all we wanted was B.net 1.0 with more stuff added on to it. Clan capabilities? wc3 had this and we don't wtf. Chat channels currently are uninspired I still dont feel like what i felt in sc1 B.net, and yet this is so simple to just make. These guys prolly dished out so much R&D money for a worthless 2.0 B.net I would say is blizzards greatest flop of all time. Luckily it wasn't a game, but jut a feature.
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my .02$
i think they designed the game based on bw but making it more flashy and interesting. we can see this through more units and having spells early in the game. in doing so, sc2 has become a double edged sword instead of a good balance between sword and shield. what i mean by this is commonly agreed "strong timing attack", "strong ealry/mid game", etc. where the tide of the battle can change so quickly. things like baneling vs ling, mmm vs wg units, feedback vs casters, etc.
they have emphasized on having hero units or having strong single units like thor, ms, ultra, col, etc. the problem with having hero(1 stand out strong unit) is that they can be focused down so easily by firepower or neural parasite.
strong spells like mind control and feedback has become much for available. what used to be late spells in bw have become early to mid game. what used to be considered late-late game abilities because its so strong has become a everyday thing - feedback, mindcontrol/np, fungal/plague, FF/stasis, emp, etc.
i believe it was to make the game more action packed and exiting, however i think its overdone.
i think blizzard needs to scale it down a little bit. amount of damage, availability(timing) of abilities, number of units.
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As much as everyone likes to see SC2 as the flagship of E-sports around the world, this thread only reassures me in my opinion that it's really not that good of a thing at all - it's very clear that making the game competitive and good to spectate isn't on top of Blizzard's priority list. If SC2 really succeeds, it will probably be in spite of Blizzard's balancing efforts.
You can't have it both ways. Either you balance the game for the top end, or for the "casuals", they all play the same game. If they keep doing this, I kind of hope SC2 fails as a competitive game, if only to serve as a lesson for companies trying to achieve similar things (like Valve's Dota2) in the future.
On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids...
You know, the fact that you actually went to the trouble of searching his blog for personal attack ammo is kind of pathetic. :/
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On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW.
 yes my friend.
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I think you have it wrong
What is uninteresting and useful
is different than
A unit that's not useful and needs overhaul
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On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW.
Tell me, how does this kind of comment brings the conversation forward? no one really cares about you, or what you do. Post something smart next time, and try not to make gamers hate each other for no apparent reason.
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On June 13 2011 06:29 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. yes my friend.
And you're posting in a SC2 thread...why? Speaks volumes.
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On June 13 2011 06:37 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. Tell me, how does this kind of comment brings the conversation forward? no one really cares about you, or what you do. Post something smart next time, and try not to make gamers hate each other for no apparent reason.
Don't be so hard on him. Everyone has to congratulate themselves on something. Maybe playing BW helps boost his self-esteem? Or maybe he feels bad that he was in kindergarten when it came out, so he missed out on BW's golden age. It's always exciting to uncover "hidden gems" years later.
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I think Blizzard is doing a great job - better than pretty much any other company out there. That said, they are still falling short in a lot of categories, and the game is missing some pretty obvious things that made BW such a great e-sport. I definitely think Dustin Browder (or just his attitude/way he conducts himself in interviews) is becoming a liability for Blizzard - the man demonstrates that he really has no clue what's going on while trying to pretend he does and he has a rather immature attitude about SC2 being "Blizzard's game" and that it's going to be made how they want it to be and that's that.
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Don't worry. SC2 will change like from Reign of Chaos to Frozen Throne. And by god was that an awesome change ...
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I didn't follow SC2's early stories. But did the communities asked for MBS Automine Smartcast? What was the reaction back then?
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Nice writeup, I agree with the majority of it and those interviews were horrible. It felt like all he wanted was "cool units" and then just let things happen and screw everything else. I'm sure they don't feel that way but it ends up coming out that way with the terrible maps we have, it feels like that shows it more than anything that they don't care at all what other people want to input. Ask one pro-gamer if they want to ladder and practice on DQ...lol come on man I don't see why that shitty maps around at all.
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On June 13 2011 05:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 05:55 IamBach wrote:I am just happy I gave up on SC2 long, long ago. Now I only have to look on and congratulate myself for playing BW. First off - No one cares. Secondly - Posting flammatory crap like this adds nothing but tension and hate between fans of either game. Edit: Oh after reading your blog i see you're still in high school. Guess kids will be kids...
What crawled up your ass?
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Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game.
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On it's own SC2 is well balanced overall, they're may be some imbalances here and there or that yet to be discovered but SC2 is still growing and changing rapidly plus HOTS will give the Dev team a chance to sit down and make some bigger changes, possible overhauls.
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On June 13 2011 06:58 Ubes wrote:
Too many people want SC1 part 2. This is SC2 a different game.
If SC2 wants to ride on Starcraft's competitive success, it can't fling 'different game' at every critique.
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EPT
