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Every race has the chance to camp some units in that empty space. P air units can also be usefull to harass.
Sorry, but I just see some QQ because some terrans dropped into your base. Why would you remove tactical possibilities like that ?
Why don't we just remove ramps, so you can never force field again while killing a zergs natural ? Why don't we just remove all sorts of cliffs where terran can protect tanks ?
and while doing this ... let's remove everything and just play on empty maps
I understand that it's realy difficult as a protoss to deal with multi drops or mutalisks, but just think of all the stuff that T and Z have to deal with, when fighting against protoss.
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I think the thread-creator was not talking about balance or effectiveness of special strategies in general but more about it being annoying ("not fun to play").
And I actually agree with him, it feels and looks stupid if a player can "park" units directly in your zone and one can't do anything about it.
However, the current game is so that I actually would rather have more "tools" to annoy the opponent rather then less. So even if it is somewhat cheap, I would let it stay on most maps just for the sake of diversity.
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On May 15 2011 18:34 G-Dy wrote: I think the thread-creator was not talking about balance or effectiveness of special strategies in general but more about it being annoying ("not fun to play").
And I actually agree with him, it feels and looks stupid if a player can "park" units directly in your zone and one can't do anything about it.
However, the current game is so that I actually would rather have more "tools" to annoy the opponent rather then less. So even if it is somewhat cheap, I would let it stay on most maps just for the sake of diversity. Lots of things are annoying for certain people/races, doesn't mean they should be removed. Just look at the post above yours.
Remove all cliffs so T and P can't abuse tanks/colossi because it's annoying for zerg.
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I hate being dropped or harassed just like anyone else but that is part of the game. If you remove that null space behind mains and naturals you nullify most of the harassement drops. With this people have to think twice before making a huge army a simply A move towards the opponent base. You have to account with drops and counters.
Leave it as it is.
On May 15 2011 18:10 Alver wrote: as a protoss i think its fine to have alot of air space behind a main even though i dont think it benefits protoss. i dont like the temple cliffs though that let an overlord sit in your base for 10mins unkillable until you have air/colossus. Zerg would have a very hard time scouting a protoss base without that but even so you can build your tech a little far away and the overlord won't scout anything. Station a stalker near the cliff and whenever the overlord comes out just kill him.
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The space should even be bigger imo. Turrets are cheaper than they were in bw if you want to compare sc2 to bw.
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i was suggesting add space instead of a cliff. i was certainly not suggesting they make bases unscoutable.
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On May 15 2011 18:10 Alver wrote: as a protoss i think its fine to have alot of air space behind a main even though i dont think it benefits protoss. i dont like the temple cliffs though that let an overlord sit in your base for 10mins unkillable until you have air/colossus.
An observer is already enough to scout it, and i don't see the difference between an overlord that sits behind your mineral line or that particular overlord.
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On May 15 2011 18:38 Lonyo wrote: Lots of things are annoying for certain people/races, doesn't mean they should be removed. Just look at the post above yours.
Remove all cliffs so T and P can't abuse tanks/colossi because it's annoying for zerg.
I give you another example:
I for myself prefer Shattered Temple over Lost Temple simply because they have removed the island expansions. Now island expansions might not be to imbalanced (since every race can take them), but players be able to plant themself there and turtling up was annoying. So I'm happy that this element is basically gone from all the maps.
And with the cliffs you are basically right to. If all maps were so that you would basically have 3 expansions on a plateau and a narrow chocke to protect them all, the map would fail, too.
Again, I wouldn't want to remove the air space behind the mineral line, but the question is legitim. Map makers should not overdo it here.
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These spaces are an incentive for both players to try and gain air dominance to either remove a potential vulnerability or to harrass the opponent. Its basically the same as those "pillars and cliffs" all around the maps which are an incentive to use Siege tanks on them. These things can be powerful but not everyone does abuse them, so there is no harm in keeping them as they are because air is not the same as a backdoor which is blocked by destructible rocks.
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I really don't like removing this, all its doing is significantly reducing aggressive opportunities in the game - why would you ever want to do that?
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On May 15 2011 18:48 Fancy. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 18:10 Alver wrote: as a protoss i think its fine to have alot of air space behind a main even though i dont think it benefits protoss. i dont like the temple cliffs though that let an overlord sit in your base for 10mins unkillable until you have air/colossus. An observer is already enough to scout it, and i don't see the difference between an overlord that sits behind your mineral line or that particular overlord.
with airspace, you can run in and see stuff if the protoss is not paying attention but they can block your overlord if they are. with alot of airspace plus having to block your ramp/defend your expo it takes some effort on both sides and the dynamic works from the start of the game. this can continue for the entire game to some extent
with the cliff the overlord cant move or he will die, so he doesnt really scout unless he suicides which he will probably do right as your teched enough to be able to get him out then for the rest of the game scouting that spot with overlords is near impossible. if the zerg doesnt suicide him he just dies after 10mins without any effort on anyones part.
i dont think its op or anything, just a bad game mechanic.
edit: i dont want cliffs removed on shattered temple, but when future maps would be made id rather they had air space and not a tiny overlord cliff.
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Maps looks ugly if you just remove it, just check a few custom maps without it.
So some other solution where you can't fly over it but has rocks and whatnot would work well.
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I'd like more space on the sides of Typhon peaks os that I can avoid my banshees to be killed ...
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not all maps have to have it
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On May 15 2011 18:45 Alver wrote: i was suggesting add space instead of a cliff. i was certainly not suggesting they make bases unscoutable.
In the case of shattered temple if you removed the cliffs it would be the same as having flat terrain because the space behind is to little for aerial manouvre. Besides in ST the main base is big enough to build away from scout's eyes.
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I think there should be a distiction between air space like tal darim altar or XelNaga Caverns on the one hand and cliffs like on shattered temple, where they can hover around over the cliff shooting the mineral line and even if you have marines/stalkers/hydras in place you cannot return fire because you cannot see them.
The former is OK, the latter is just really really annoying and poor map design.
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On May 15 2011 14:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Don't "listen to this guy". If you build phoenixes, then the Terran will just drop his marines from his medivacs, stim, and kill your phoenixes -.-' Ridiculous advice. Making a whole new tech path that's useless? lol. Medivacs are incorporated into the normal Terran tech tree anyway. You might as well just get blink for the Protoss stalkers you're gonna get anyway.
Listen to this guy! He's a Day9 fan and huge Bronze-enthusiast.
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On May 15 2011 22:15 CPTslut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 14:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Don't "listen to this guy". If you build phoenixes, then the Terran will just drop his marines from his medivacs, stim, and kill your phoenixes -.-' Ridiculous advice. Making a whole new tech path that's useless? lol. Medivacs are incorporated into the normal Terran tech tree anyway. You might as well just get blink for the Protoss stalkers you're gonna get anyway. Listen to this guy! He's a Day9 fan and huge Bronze-enthusiast. Thanks for the informative one liner guy.
What I'm sure he meant to say and more of us would agree with, is that Phoenixes are not static and if they are out of position they are a completely wasted investment. Unless you went 3 Gate Stargate anyway and got some early game harass out of the Phoenix before the T gets up some turrets, the Phoenix as a late game drop defense can be risky.
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On May 15 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 22:15 CPTslut wrote:On May 15 2011 14:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Don't "listen to this guy". If you build phoenixes, then the Terran will just drop his marines from his medivacs, stim, and kill your phoenixes -.-' Ridiculous advice. Making a whole new tech path that's useless? lol. Medivacs are incorporated into the normal Terran tech tree anyway. You might as well just get blink for the Protoss stalkers you're gonna get anyway. Listen to this guy! He's a Day9 fan and huge Bronze-enthusiast. Thanks for the informative one liner guy. What I'm sure he meant to say and more of us would agree with, is that Phoenixes are not static and if they are out of position they are a completely wasted investment. Especially if you made the Phoenixes late enough in the game with the intention of defending drops and didn't abuse them before Turrets go up in the T's mineral line. Phoenixes are actually a fantastic unit PvT in the late game. Phoenix do tremendously well against Vikings, and when the marine numbers are low because of Protoss T3 the phoenix can actually kill effectively harass and sometimes kill all the reinforcement units.
Incontrol has been talking for a while about using phoenixes in PvT, they're fantastic.
edit; as to OP:
Dropships in the airspace behind your base are easy to kill as all races, since Phoenixes have a use, and muta/viking is a standard part of both the TvT and ZvT metagames. There is no problem in terms of balance because this issue is not that difficult to deal with; not to mention if your opponent leaves a medvac full of units off to the side of the map that is 10 supply not engaging, and a free kill of 10 opponent's supply when you send any air unit out there to kill it. This forces the terran to either commit to a heavy "all-in"esque drop (one where they can't retreat their units out after doing some damage) or give up on drops entirely. In either case, this leads well into the Protoss late game where your units are exceptionally cost effective. Phoenixes also tend to shut down most banshee play.
tl;dr the void space behind mineral lines is fine. Killing medvacs sitting out there is easy for Zerg and Terran without altering any of their builds, and Protoss should be using phoenix against Terran, especially vs a drop heavy opponent.
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On May 15 2011 22:40 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 22:36 eight.BiT wrote:On May 15 2011 22:15 CPTslut wrote:On May 15 2011 14:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 15 2011 07:32 ZasZ. wrote:On May 15 2011 07:29 FeiLing wrote: I always wondered why Toss never build 3-4 Phoenix against hard dropping Terrans. It's so effective and takes away a lot of pressure from you. Listen to this guy. Throw up one (1) Stargate against a multi-drop Terran and use Phoenixes to shut it down, especially if he insists on floating over the empty space behind your base. Don't "listen to this guy". If you build phoenixes, then the Terran will just drop his marines from his medivacs, stim, and kill your phoenixes -.-' Ridiculous advice. Making a whole new tech path that's useless? lol. Medivacs are incorporated into the normal Terran tech tree anyway. You might as well just get blink for the Protoss stalkers you're gonna get anyway. Listen to this guy! He's a Day9 fan and huge Bronze-enthusiast. Thanks for the informative one liner guy. What I'm sure he meant to say and more of us would agree with, is that Phoenixes are not static and if they are out of position they are a completely wasted investment. Especially if you made the Phoenixes late enough in the game with the intention of defending drops and didn't abuse them before Turrets go up in the T's mineral line. Phoenixes are actually a fantastic unit PvT in the late game. Phoenix do tremendously well against Vikings, and when the marine numbers are low because of Protoss T3 the phoenix can actually kill effectively harass and sometimes kill all the reinforcement units. Incontrol has been talking for a while about using phoenixes in PvT, they're fantastic. That is why I mentioned that if you incorporate them into your build anyway like a 3 Gate Stargate or something they can be good, but relying on a couple for drop defense as mentioned in the thread earlier is meh.
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