|
On February 14 2011 10:17 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
you can calculate this:
1 drone ~40 mins or gas per minute (no oversaturation)
1 hatch = 4 larvae per minute
hatch + queen ~ 8..10 larvae per minute if regulary injected
BTW: massing drones quickly is pretty important for Z play ;-)
I would say it's better to think of having 7 larvae every 45s than 8-10 per minute. Hatch gives you 1 every 15s, so 3 per 45, and queen energy refills to 25 just barely under 45s (44.4444444s).
On February 15 2011 02:17 goof wrote:Keep in mind that as long as you spend all your OC energy the instant/before it reaches 200, you're "good". You get the same income, just slightly later. But once you have a queen with 25+ energy you have lost larvae for good. That "I just missed the timing" window for zerg is rather small, compared to terran's, don't you think? This is what makes it less forgiving.
Except your production facilities should be setup so that a missed mule will force you to make production changes. Without 2 mules going down with 2 bases every cooldown, that's 300-400 minerals per minute being left out. Sure, you can call down mules after the fact, but without extra production facilities (that you can't normally support), you'll never get through the extra minerals you get from the hypermuling. When a terran misses a mule by a full duration, that's 3-4 marauders, or 6-8 marines, or 2-3 tanks they don't have by X time. Missing macro mechanics can effect all races the same way, zerg is just a lot more easy to make those connections.
|
On February 15 2011 02:20 aksfjh wrote:
Except your production facilities should be setup so that a missed mule will force you to make production changes. Without 2 mules going down with 2 bases every cooldown, that's 300-400 minerals per minute being left out. Sure, you can call down mules after the fact, but without extra production facilities (that you can't normally support), you'll never get through the extra minerals you get from the hypermuling. When a terran misses a mule by a full duration, that's 3-4 marauders, or 6-8 marines, or 2-3 tanks they don't have by X time. Missing macro mechanics can effect all races the same way, zerg is just a lot more easy to make those connections.
This is true. But the key point is "[...] they don't have by X time [...]". For zerg X = never. Terran can use these minerals i.e. when his main is mined out, and his normal income drops. Yes, it will put you in (close to) the same situation as zerg for a while, but you'll make up for it later. This is not true for zerg.
|
On February 15 2011 02:38 goof wrote:
This is true. But the key point is "[...] they don't have by X time [...]". For zerg X = never. Terran can use these minerals i.e. when his main is mined out, and his normal income drops. Yes, it will put you in (close to) the same situation as zerg for a while, but you'll make up for it later. This is not true for zerg.
They function differently, you are comparing apples to oranges. If queens are spitting throughout the game you could potentially have larva banked and resources (once you hit a 200 food army). You now all of a sudden have the power to create 30 units (or more) at once, terran economy can't really support enough production buildings to house 30 production slots, also consider all the money spent to BUILD those production slots, minerals and gas for both. Zerg has an upfront cost and a technically uncapped means of production, the only cap is how good you are at your spits, and if you've got an extra hatch or 2 depending on how long the game goes on.
|
Spawning larva is similar to forgetting to build units. You will NEVER get that unit back. You just missed it.
I see a lot of people compare the Spawn Larva mechanic to the MULE or Chronoboost. I think this is because we call them all "macro mechanics." This is an umbrella term and to use that term to equate all three abilities is improper, in my humble opinion.
(1) The MULE mines minerals faster than a worker, does not cost supply, ignores saturation, and can repair buildings or mechanical structures in emergency scenarios.
(2) Chronoboost decreases buildtime/research time/warpgate cooldown by 50% for a short period of time, 20 seconds.
(3) Spawn Larva creates 4 additional larva at the hatch every 40 seconds after it is cast.
Look how vastly different they are? They are all related to production in different ways.
So many people say that if they miss a spawn larva it is missed for good, and will never come back. They compare it to the MULE and say you only miss OC call downs for good after you've let your OC reach 200 energy, same with Protoss. This comparison doesn't really hold a lot of water because of how different they all are.
A spawned larva can technically become any core Zerg unit. If they "miss an inject" they aren't missing out on anything but a theoretically better game than they're currently playing. I'd even venture to say it is 'exactly' the same as Terran "missing" a build unit order at any of his production buildings, or a Protoss player missing his warpgate or robo/stargate cycles.
If I miss a marine, there is no getting that marine back. He will be however many seconds late and there is no way around that. Same thing with spawn larva. Same thing with Warpgate, and so on.
This idea of "missing an inject" is an important one, but I think it is important to point out the distinction between "missing" something and "delaying" something. Unless you're queen spits larva, and misses the hatch, lol, you didn't miss anything - it was just delayed.
|
wow... was it only me that click this cause of "Larva Inject Anal..."?
|
On February 15 2011 03:14 Deekin[ wrote:
wow... was it only me that click this cause of "Larva Inject Anal..."?
I think everyone came to this thread because of that, regardless of they're actually taking the discussion seriously or not, lol.
|
On February 15 2011 03:14 Deekin[ wrote:
wow... was it only me that click this cause of "Larva Inject Anal..."?
I mean really if you think about it the thread is about being Anal about your larva injects
|
On February 15 2011 03:14 Deekin[ wrote:
wow... was it only me that click this cause of "Larva Inject Anal..."?
This happens far to often for it being chance. Despite the op's claim that it was completely accidental, I have my suspicions. 
|
Just be thankful that they don't allow one more character to be portrayed in the sidebar links or this post would be giving out some really painful advice.
|
After reading your post I made a quick excel macro to calculate my average inject time. It uses the SC2GEARS combat log to calculate the average time between injects. This way I can see how close (or far) I am to the perfect 40 seconds.
Copy paste the log of a game from SC2 gear (in the Charts tab) in excel and click the button in the 2nd sheet.
Can't process ZvZ (cannot differentiate players yet) and there is sometimes bugs with the log that gives inject interval lower than 40 sec, not sure whats wrong with that one. It still gives a good idea of your queen macro efficiency.
I ran a few of my games with it and I found I'm at around 50-70 sec average time on injects, pretty bad. Gonna work on it to try and lower that time.
Here's the file:
Larva inject.xls - 328.0 KB
|
Just analyzing larva inject by itself doesn't paint the full picture. While it is important, you would also have to analyze it according to available resources and supply. The larva inject graph should be placed over a army value graph to show how the Zerg is being out macro'd by missing larva inject. Because just missing some larva inject time doesn't necessarily change the game, much like missing a mule for a few seconds won't necessarily change if for Terran.
The analysis is great and if it could be implemented into SC2Gears I'm sure it would help, but there needs to be more analysis and comparisons. Show how specifically missing larva inject allowed the opponent to have the larger army.
|
I'd really like to see an Idra, Ret, or Nestea game where they are playing good. Maby the Idra vs IMVP game. I feel like it would be telling to see a known high end macro zerg at least in the early game how many larva injects are missed.
|
On February 15 2011 05:38 ExoTau wrote:After reading your post I made a quick excel macro to calculate my average inject time. It uses the SC2GEARS combat log to calculate the average time between injects. This way I can see how close (or far) I am to the perfect 40 seconds. Copy paste the log of a game from SC2 gear (in the Charts tab) in excel and click the button in the 2nd sheet. Can't process ZvZ (cannot differentiate players yet) and there is sometimes bugs with the log that gives inject interval lower than 40 sec, not sure whats wrong with that one. It still gives a good idea of your queen macro efficiency. I ran a few of my games with it and I found I'm at around 50-70 sec average time on injects, pretty bad. Gonna work on it to try and lower that time. Here's the file: Larva inject.xls - 328.0 KB
You may be able to process ZvZ in turning off your opponent, the most recent version I know allows you to look at only your information (it's just above the graph).
|
On February 15 2011 03:11 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'd even venture to say it is 'exactly' the same as Terran "missing" a build unit order at any of his production buildings, or a Protoss player missing his warpgate or robo/stargate cycles.
If I miss a marine, there is no getting that marine back. He will be however many seconds late and there is no way around that. Same thing with spawn larva. Same thing with Warpgate, and so on.
This idea of "missing an inject" is an important one, but I think it is important to point out the distinction between "missing" something and "delaying" something. Unless you're queen spits larva, and misses the hatch, lol, you didn't miss anything - it was just delayed. Disagree... Just like investments have a time value, so to does producing units earlier. While yes, missing warpgate/racks/building cycles hurts because you are under utilizing production capacity it is not the same for zerg as ALL their production capacity is focused on their hatcheries which greatly magnifies its significance. To make up for a missed production capacity, sure you can produce more hatcheries but this is expensive and incurs a significant opportunity cost.
These costs are greatly magnified with zerg because is a 'weed race' that grow exponentially. The sooner they get out that drone, the sooner the drone pays for itself and the next drone. The sooner the army hatches, the sooner the zerg player can get back to overdroning and expanding.
The only real time a zerg would want to build auxiliary hatcheries would be if they were going for mass low tech units (like ling/roach because they create larvae blockage). Otherwise that's money that's not earning interest in the bank.
|
Grreaat analysis imo really liked the graph.... Wow! Shows how much I need to improve as a Zerg...
|
On February 15 2011 08:39 Fungal Growth wrote:
While yes, missing warpgate/racks/building cycles hurts because you are under utilizing production capacity it is not the same for zerg as ALL their production capacity is focused on their hatcheries which greatly magnifies its significance. To make up for a missed production capacity, sure you can produce more hatcheries but this is expensive and incurs a significant opportunity cost.
Show me one zerg that doesnt float like 3-4k minerals lategame and ill show you a liar.
|
Updated with a graphic of a Ret replay
|
On February 15 2011 08:55 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 08:39 Fungal Growth wrote:
While yes, missing warpgate/racks/building cycles hurts because you are under utilizing production capacity it is not the same for zerg as ALL their production capacity is focused on their hatcheries which greatly magnifies its significance. To make up for a missed production capacity, sure you can produce more hatcheries but this is expensive and incurs a significant opportunity cost.
Show me one zerg that doesnt float like 3-4k minerals lategame and ill show you a liar. Late game is a different story...when you are maxed at 200, have taken most of the expansions, and have caught up with your tech then then yeah you'll want to create multiple auxiliary hatcheries so you can remax in minimal time.
The trick for zerg is getting to that superpower status as fast as possible to which hitting your injections is crucial. A lot of pro's float big time resources in the late game which is a mistake but easy to make because of how demanding things get during late game as battle micro becomes so important because of the size of the armies.
|
On February 15 2011 09:07 Sv1 wrote:
Updated with a graphic of a Ret replay Very interesting...just goes to show how important it is when facing zerg it is to constantly harass them just to steal their APM away from injections...
|
I agree with what TimeSpiral said however he might not agree with what i'm about to say so i won't quote him xP
i agree completely. i sometimes i even thought like t his back in SC:BW, because i realized that for w/e reason i missed making an SCV/Probe, that was time i'd never get back, as compared to zerg who could make multiple drones at once, as long as they had 50 min. basically, this flashback into SC:BW just shows that the races work differently from each other. It's illogical to compare Inject Larva strictly to MULE and Chronoboost and expect them to work in the same way.
think like this. a terran misses his wave of building units and a zerg misses his wave of inject larva. They both realize this and do said wave. they both lost time that they'll ever get back. after a while, the larva pops and the zerg can spam whatever units because his minerals have stacked over from being larva blocked. however, the terran can spam all he wants, the units will just get cued up.
seems kinda unforgiving for the terran right? well in the terran case, his "spam" ability will be MULES.
zerg can spam units if his minerals over flow
terran can spam MULES if his energy overflows
protoss can spam CB if his energy overflows
zerg can make up for lost unit making time because units can be made at the same time
terran can get a boost in his econ
protoss can make upgrades/units come out faster than normal
they're different! they're not exactly the same!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
