As you can read here (german) Naniwa has collected too many Penalty Points and thus got kicked out of the ESL Pro Series for which he moved to Germany (mostly because of it probably!)
He had 25 minor penalty points and one major penalty point. He got those penalty points for various reasons such as not uploading replays, forgetting statements etc. which can be read here (german too)
The major penalty point comes from not appearing to a match which he had moved already. One major penalty point means 10% prizemoney reduce and 1 minor penalty point means 1% prizemoney reduce. If a player has 30% prizemoney reduce, he gets kicked.
Also NarutO who has 17 minor pentalty points and And3ad who has 1 major and 8 minor penalty points need to be careful as they could be the next to be kicked.
EPS Ranking <--- here you can see how many PP the players have.
mod edit:
On October 29 2010 17:41 desrow wrote: "Unfortunately, taking into account his inability to participate any longer in the German EPS, after his removal due to too many penalty points, it is with an empty heart that MYM has to announce the decision to release Sweden Johan 'NaNiWa' Lucchesi from the Starcraft II squad.
MYM would however like wish him a safe return home and would also like to thank him for his time within the team and wishes him the best of luck in the future, and in finding a new home."
Why would someone go live in Germany specifically for EPS(in case he did of course because the first post seems unsure of that) then not show up or do whatever to get penalty points. Seems so counterintuitive, man.
On October 27 2010 22:14 Mereel wrote: he sucks anyway.....2base collosi every game
sounds like any protoss who rolls me :p
this is absolutely hilarious but i think eps system is kinda crappy with all match statements and so on, they dont even have admins to help around whenever i need help so i gotten some warnings aswell even when im trying my best to follow their rules :/
Actually he didnt get most of the PPs for statements (or rather, for forgetting them) but for not uploading replay (9 minor), not showing up (1 major = 10 minor) and for using wildcards too late.
On October 27 2010 22:22 DarKFoRcE wrote: Actually he didnt get most of the PPs for statements (or rather, for forgetting them) but for not uploading replay (9 minor), not showing up (1 major = 10 minor) and for using wildcards too late.
On October 27 2010 22:20 Barrin wrote: I don't understand why protoss don't make more immortals to pwn roaches. Only need like 1 or 2 collosi to deal with zerglings.
Seriously, one immortal can kill four-five roaches by itself.
On October 27 2010 22:14 Mereel wrote: he sucks anyway.....2base collosi every game
sounds like any protoss who rolls me :p
this is absolutely hilarious but i think eps system is kinda crappy with all match statements and so on, they dont even have admins to help around whenever i need help so i gotten some warnings aswell even when im trying my best to follow their rules :/
i dont think youve been the most respectful towards the EPS administration (your statement to BigT "I told them im sorry" "but im not :d")
But a well deserved kick and a good thing they have an objective system behind their deicisions.
Well, EPS is prolly the most professional Esports league outside Korea. If you have live events all over Germany and this much price money on a regular basis (17th ! season), you have to have strict rules on players behavior. Took the German kids a while to get used to it, and it does not surprise me that one of the internationals who moved over to participate got stuck in this. Still... I don't know how you can risk a disqualification over such minor things. Looks kinda unprofessional to me.
no wonder he is so bad educated , cant forget one of those zotac matches where i had to wait to play with him for 1 hour and talking to me like i owe him. And after i lost him (im not a pro and etc.) , he said "GG, wasted 10 minutes of my life on you" WOW , just WOW.
I find it rare to watch a Nani game where he isn't embarrassing his sponsor with his comments or frustrating opponents by 10 minute AFKs between games to fix some stuff with his mouse. This was such an unnecessary thing to happen.
On October 27 2010 22:35 turbopasca1 wrote: no wonder he is so bad educated , cant forget one of those zotac matches where i had to wait to play with him for 1 hour and talking to me like i owe him. And after i lost him (im not a pro and etc.) , he said "GG, wasted 10 minutes of my life on you" WOW , just WOW.
that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
On October 27 2010 22:35 turbopasca1 wrote: no wonder he is so bad educated , cant forget one of those zotac matches where i had to wait to play with him for 1 hour and talking to me like i owe him. And after i lost him (im not a pro and etc.) , he said "GG, wasted 10 minutes of my life on you" WOW , just WOW.
Seriously, you write a match statement, upload replays, and show up once a week to play sc2 if you get disqualified its your own fault really. As a professional player there are really no excuses. 5 minutes total time spent this season and he would have been fine, even with the no-show. (Wasn't it vs goody as well? suspicious looking at his 100% win rate )
@ attackfighter. yeah... right .... EPS is run by Turtle Entertainment. Biggest E-Sport Company outside Korea. Same people who run Intel Extreme Masters... just a heads up.
I've enjoyed every one of his losses since seeing him lose that craftcup finals to Dimaga in the beta. He raged pretty hard, BMed dimaga pretty hard, and even blamed not walling off with his zealot properly on a "bug" and ragequit without gging one game.
Since then I have seen him constantly BM people in tourneys, and always blame his losses on "lag" etc. How do people like this even retain sponsorships ? He is a joke to the competitive community.
On October 27 2010 22:43 attackfighter wrote: that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
I think "taking away money" is pretty much the best way to enforce the players to follow the rules.
Terrible player with a terrible attitude. Remember him BMing Lucifron during a tournament after Lucifron won with early agression. He said that people like Lucifron are ruining the game yaddayadda and that he can't stay in a game when it gets longer than 5 minutes. After that Lucifron won in straight up macro games.
I remember a ZOTAC cup match he was going to get casted my GLHF.tv. Both GLHF streamers were in the lobby, and as the countdown started or just before he kicked one of the streamers. He must have noticed the other streamer was in the game still, because when the game started he wrote "suck pä dig" and left.
On October 27 2010 22:43 attackfighter wrote: that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
Then they should follow the rules, as guys like Hasu show it is possible.
EPS is going on for so many years now(started 2002 or something like that), it is one of the most stable and professional tournaments out there. You should really inform yourself :p This sc2-season is quite stupid, but WC3-EPS was extremely entertaining, especially due to enforced statements.
On October 27 2010 22:47 vanTuni wrote: @ attackfighter. yeah... right .... EPS is run by Turtle Entertainment. Biggest E-Sport Company outside Korea. Same people who run Intel Extreme Masters... just a heads up.
it's not like there are a lot of esports companies outside of korea, in fact before now I had only heard of MLG (and it's also terrible). i wouldn't even call them an esport company, thats more of a buzzword to get support
the intel extreme thing sucked, it's only claim to fame was that it was one of the first SC2 tournaments
On October 27 2010 22:43 attackfighter wrote: that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
they don't save the money by taking it from players with penalty points. its split between the players who dont have any PPs at the end of the season as a bonus.
i can't say that im sorry for naniwa. even if its hard to do everything right for someone from foreign country to get no PPs, there were plenty of guys who could and even tried to help him with that (Miou, one of the EPS players, told so on a german community site). i mean, MYM is sponsoring him, even paying him his stay in germany. if not for himself, he should at least feel responsible to pay them back with professionalism and good results. he's a kid.
its not a way for the esl to save money. the % of pricemoney that gets taken away from players due to pp is distributed evenly among the other eps players.
On October 27 2010 22:43 attackfighter wrote: that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
Then they should follow the rules, as guys like Hasu show it is possible.
EPS is going on for so many years now(started 2002 or something like that), it is one of the most stable and professional tournaments out there. You should really inform yourself :p This sc2-season is quite stupid, but WC3-EPS was extremely entertaining, especially due to enforced statements.
Absolutely. EPS is extremely well organized I got msged from an admin (not germany EPS obviously) like 10 minutes after naming a replay wrong (named it correctly file-wise, but uploaded it on ESL with just "round 1" or something). If they don't have penalties everyone will start slacking off with all the replays and match statements which defeats the point of having them.
I doesn't really matter if 75% have some penalty points because a small number makes a very small difference to anything.
135 employees in Cologne, 15 franchise holders, active in 37 countries is not what you call a company? Do some research before you post. Or if you post and get taught better - at least admit it.
On October 27 2010 22:52 GreEny K wrote: I like Naniwa, I dont get why you're all hating on him.
Anyway, this sucks... I think he could have won too, hes great from what I've seen of him.
If you read the posts you'd see why hes getting such heat. He has no respect for representing his sponsor in a good light, no respect for his opponents and no respect for the organization's rules.
I feel sorry for him since going to germany was solely based on playing in the EPS(as I've understood it) but at the same time cant help but think that he had it coming with how he acts which is just insane. It's not idra bm it's just plain rage issues that he takes out on anyone he meets.
Not supised hes got such a bad attitude every time ret won him he was lol OMG ZERG IMBA ROACH IMBA
I don't understand why protoss don't make more immortals to pwn roaches. Only need like 1 or 2 collosi to deal with zerglings.
Immortals have shorter range, less mobility (cliff walking), can't kite, don't give cliff vision, do less or similar dps when there are 3 roaches next to each other (30x3=90 vs 50 for immortal), aren't as good versus lings, hydras, drones, static defense, queens. They also can cliff kite ultras a bit and only a few immortals are needed for ultra anyway.
FF + 9 range = lolroach
I've never heard of this guy tbh. Protoss needs more heroes imo. Tester got knocked out of GSL2 qualifiers and white-ra doesn't play as much . I think there are very few toss (spoiler) left in GSL as well.
On October 27 2010 23:06 GenoZStriker wrote: This will not look good for MYM.
You and I both know MYM hasn't looked good for a while now.
And about suNNy - he left MYM as the Warcraft III manager before SC2 beta was announced, after a giant argument with DeMusliM in the private crew channel. suNNy is in no way fit to manage any players, imo.
On October 27 2010 23:10 HolydaKing wrote: If MYM cared they should've reacted after Naniwa had collected a lot of PP... It's not like he got them all at once.
They even have German staff members, it's not like they were unable to help Nani.
I understand a series like this needs penalty points to discipline players, and I understand that if a player accrues too many penalty points then he will get kicked. I've no problem with that.
What I really dislike, however, is the rule to link a lessening of the prize money to the penalty points. What this does is give the series a financial motivation to hand out as many penalty points as they possibly can, because they will save money while at the same time being able to advertise larger prize pools than they actually end up paying.
Naniwa received 9 minor penalty points for a single missing replay, thats a 9% reduction in prize money. If GSL did penalties like that, then they'd save like 7800$ just for a single 9% penalty against the tournament winner.
This feels quite wrong to me. Not feeling sorry for Naniwa very much though, his degree of BM is a bit too much.
Old MYM interview of Naniwa where he talks about getting kicked out of home, school and went on to living with a friend. He's had it pretty tough but I still don't think he should be so rude to others 24/7. http://www.mymym.com/en/news/11751.html
On October 27 2010 23:16 Nixda wrote: I understand a series like this needs penalty points to discipline players, and I understand that if a player accrues too many penalty points then he will get kicked. I've no problem with that.
What I really dislike, however, is the rule to link a lessening of the prize money to the penalty points. What this does is give the series a financial motivation to hand out as many penalty points as they possibly can, because they will save money while at the same time being able to advertise larger prize pools than they actually end up paying.
Naniwa received 9 minor penalty points for a single missing replay, thats a 9% reduction in prize money. If GSL did penalties like that, then they'd save like 7800$ just for a single 9% penalty against the tournament winner.
This feels quite wrong to me. Not feeling sorry for Naniwa very much though, his degree of BM is a bit too much.
Jesus Christ, at least read some of the posts in the thread before you post.
The prizemoney reduction from Penalty Points is equally distributed between the other players.
On October 27 2010 22:56 Socke wrote: its not a way for the esl to save money. the % of pricemoney that gets taken away from players due to pp is distributed evenly among the other eps players.
looks like people didn't read what Socke said, stop bashing EPS saying "they only want to save money"
On October 27 2010 23:16 Seek wrote: Old MYM interview of Naniwa where he talks about getting kicked out of home, school and went on to living with a friend. He's had it pretty tough but I still don't think he should be so rude to others 24/7. http://www.mymym.com/en/news/11751.html
On October 27 2010 22:47 vanTuni wrote: @ attackfighter. yeah... right .... EPS is run by Turtle Entertainment. Biggest E-Sport Company outside Korea. Same people who run Intel Extreme Masters... just a heads up.
it's not like there are a lot of esports companies outside of korea, in fact before now I had only heard of MLG (and it's also terrible). i wouldn't even call them an esport company, thats more of a buzzword to get support
the intel extreme thing sucked, it's only claim to fame was that it was one of the first SC2 tournaments
seems like iem really suck
you should know how big esports is in germany/europe thanks to esl. i dont want to sound cocky, but the american scene is nothing against this.
good thing he got kicked out. people who are unable to follow simple rules have to be punished
On October 27 2010 23:16 Seek wrote: Old MYM interview of Naniwa where he talks about getting kicked out of home, school and went on to living with a friend. He's had it pretty tough but I still don't think he should be so rude to others 24/7. http://www.mymym.com/en/news/11751.html
Behaving problems, no wonder he got kicked.
oh my god, he must have really big problems with himself if hes not able to live together with a family and go to school
Here i was hoping he would get his act together and become a quality progamer. He has the natural talent to succeed but that temperament of his is always getting in the way. I sincerely hope he goes away, reevaluates his goals and comes back (if he wants to) as a more mature player.
I remember him playing semifinals go4sc2, he forced his opponent(bratok) and all of streamers to wait about 40 min, because he broke mouse(mousepad) and needed to test it in ladder.
Not supised hes got such a bad attitude every time ret won him he was lol OMG ZERG IMBA ROACH IMBA
I don't understand why protoss don't make more immortals to pwn roaches. Only need like 1 or 2 collosi to deal with zerglings.
They take a long time to build proportional to their damage, are very slow and easily surrounded, have equal range with stalkers so they spend their time walking around your units without getting a shot off, and most importantly against zerg can't shoot up, considering 9/10 games will go into a muta transition.
Of course I can imagine none of this will be his own fault. Considering his history (if it is true) this guy might actually be ODD.
I hope this can serve as perspective for NaNiwa, though unlikely. But if so, maybe he can start to seek the peace he needs to pull himself together and do things the right way.
Good to see that they actually implement real consequences for getting too many penalty points. Just cuz your good doesnt give you a freepass, and I like that
looks like a lot of Naniwa bashing going on right here. I can tell you somehting from a caster's perspective.
2-3 Weeks ago I casted Zotac Cup. And we were in the quarter finals or something. I casted some games of a guy (dunno who it was hehe - my memory ... ). I really liked his playstyle so i casted 2-3 games of him and then he played against Naniwa (who was registered with a smurf account) as soon as i entered the lobby i saw it was naniwa and said my usual stuff like I always do " hey there, GL HF to both of you ".
One second later " OUT " Me " Hey, no worries im offical caster with ZOTAC CUP, no obs " " I dont believe you OUT " ME "- go ask the admins on IRC or check tl.net - if i lag i will leave asap - you can ask XY (his opponent which I've casted the 2-3 games before)" " I dont care GET THE FUCK OUT DUDE"
then i left - he didnt believe me - okay i can understand this - its not like my name is day9 or gunrun or something like this.
but not even checking for it and beeing very much rude ? no thx ! - so i didn't want to casue any more trouble, so i left
I guess hes just one of those people who think they can do everythingwhat they want when sitting behind a computer - and only becasue he had soemthign like a bad childhood, that doesn't mean he has a "get out of jail" free card so he can do whatever he likes
90% of time rules make very much sense - so GJ ESL
and its a big difference between BMing like IdrA or the way he does it ... esp nowadays when IdrA more and more came to his sense BM wise hehe
I cant defend his behavior, but hes right about roaches lol. People dont invest that much in immortals because they cant shoot up Mutas follow shortly after and the immortals are a huge mineral sink and take away from collosi time. But what do i know ima noob
He should quit Germany and join Korea. I'd love to see him lose in the GSL.
I generally find Bm quite hilarious but Nani just takes it too far, reminds me of kids in high school with anger issues more than anything, honestly quite amused that he was banned.
On October 27 2010 23:11 dondake wrote: Naniwa, Idra, laloush, satini should team up and create biggest BM squad ever.
idra is fine right now.
He just got temp banned again for having a go at WeRRa in the thread on their disbanding. He's improved a lot though to his credit, and in public is pretty professional.
I can't believe some people are rooting for complete banning of Naniwa, or him not being accepted to any tournies for BM, yet find excuses for Idra.
BM is BM, be objective, people! If you hate BM stuff in principle, it should apply to all players. Crying like a girl to your opponent, who hardly can do anything about the balance stuff, or cursing at people is no less BM than what this guy did.
As a fan, I whine about balance, yes, but not during the match to the opponent in a rude way. Naniwa should have been professional. Even Idra knows where to BM (ladder etc.), and where not to (professional tournies).
The posts in this thread are rather amusing - seems as if people want one of the better players in the world to be banned for talking shit - as if we never have before. Seems like naniwa just needs to clean his image up and remember to upload replays, and everything will be fine. :\.
Comeh did you read the whole thread? Talking shit is one thing, being rude is another. Then we have trolling, failing to follow rules and being flat out annoying.
Naniwa is honestly an asshole from what I've seen, but that's beyond the point here. He obviously accrued a lot of penalty points by not following the rules, and after a certain number of warnings this is bound to happen. And regarding IdrA: I hate to defend the guy, but lately he's been far less of a prick and has begun to act professionally -- maybe it's part of his EG deal?
On October 28 2010 00:41 hmunkey wrote: And regarding IdrA: I hate to defend the guy, but lately he's been far less of a prick and has begun to act professionally -- maybe it's part of his EG deal?
I think it has something to do with his parents(Tasteless and Artosis) teaching him some manners!
On October 27 2010 23:16 Seek wrote: Old MYM interview of Naniwa where he talks about getting kicked out of home, school and went on to living with a friend. He's had it pretty tough but I still don't think he should be so rude to others 24/7. http://www.mymym.com/en/news/11751.html
Oh cry me a river. I'm guessing His parents booted him because all he did was play computer games since he was about to get kicked out of school due to simply not being there, and we are talking not being there at ALL. I had a 40% abscense during a year of myu highschool and that did not warrant to kick me out, to get kicked out of the swedish school system you'd need like a 10% attendance or lower.
School thing is entirely on him, the part about his parents i cant really say ofcourse, it might be terrible but who knows, the interview link to gravitas doesnt work.
On October 28 2010 00:27 Xxavi wrote: I can't believe some people are rooting for complete banning of Naniwa, or him not being accepted to any tournies for BM, yet find excuses for Idra.
BM is BM, be objective, people! If you hate BM stuff in principle, it should apply to all players. Crying like a girl to your opponent, who hardly can do anything about the balance stuff, or cursing at people is no less BM than what this guy did.
As a fan, I whine about balance, yes, but not during the match to the opponent in a rude way. Naniwa should have been professional. Even Idra knows where to BM (ladder etc.), and where not to (professional tournies).
that's exactly the point. If you are upset easily or not content with balance there are persons and places where you can unleash your rage, like ladder. In showmatches and tournaments you shouldnt... Also trying to make it funny is also better then blatant nerdrage
On October 27 2010 23:16 Seek wrote: Old MYM interview of Naniwa where he talks about getting kicked out of home, school and went on to living with a friend. He's had it pretty tough but I still don't think he should be so rude to others 24/7. http://www.mymym.com/en/news/11751.html
Oh cry me a river. I'm guessing His parents booted him because all he did was play computer games since he was about to get kicked out of school due to simply not being there, and we are talking not being there at ALL. I had a 40% abscense during a year of myu highschool and that did not warrant to kick me out, to get kicked out of the swedish school system you'd need like a 10% attendance or lower.
School thing is entirely on him, the part about his parents i cant really say ofcourse, it might be terrible but who knows, the interview link to gravitas doesnt work.
Aye, that's what I figured. Sweden has an incredibly lax school system, you really have to make an effort to get kicked out. Huge contrast compared to England for example. You can get away with basically anything without even a slap on the wrist, he's got no one to blame but himself.
His parents booting him is a different story altogether though, I guess he really managed to piss 'em off but no one wants that kind of shit in their lives before even turning 18.
If he can't bring himself to show even the most basic level of respect to his fellow players and to those organising and running such events, then he doesn't deserve to take part, regardless of how good he may be.
On October 28 2010 00:52 frequency wrote: Nani is one of the funniest people I've ever spoken to on vent. You all take him too seriously sometimes.
Guess EPS staff took him too seriously then. He might be funny, but really, basic stuff to be in a tournament and you ignore it and add some bm towards other players is just too much to not take him seriously.
There's such a tremendous difference between the various kinds of "bm". IdrA is a sore loser but he wins gracefully. I don't have a problem with that. If you're heavily emotionally invested in a game you lost, even though you felt you played better, then that can be very frustrating. Nani isn't "bm". He's just a dick. A narcissistic dick.
That being said, playing EPS is a fucking hassle. It's like working administration. It's very annoying and I can see how he'd accumulate penalty points (childish system to begin with, but whatever). Being banned from the league is harsh, but all admins are powertripping bronze leaguers, and that simply conflicts with Nani's (broken) personality.
On a serious note, I really hope Nani sees the error of his ways and starts treating people (even though it's the internet) better, for his own sake.
On October 28 2010 00:32 Comeh wrote: The posts in this thread are rather amusing - seems as if people want one of the better players in the world to be banned for talking shit - as if we never have before. Seems like naniwa just needs to clean his image up and remember to upload replays, and everything will be fine. :\.
Clean up his image? dude, these guys are extremely weird.. I've played a lot of counterstrike.. and so many players in that game are beyond BM, they actively seek out to piss other players off in the most childish and irritating way possible. They never ever change. Its one thing to be an angry player like Idra, its a whooole other ballgame to be one of those ultra irritating players who've perfected the art of sheer annoyance and douchebaggery.
On October 28 2010 01:18 Wihl wrote: Watching naniwa play on stream is so annoying because its always the same crying. I wish he'd man up at some point and stop acting like a 12 year old.
It's not hard to be responsible. If he couldn't abide by those rules then how would he do in a professional job in an office building, awful I bet.
I love it when BM players get punished. Maybe real life beatings are a bit much, but when they get that BM you really want to give them a good man punch to the face.
EPS rules arent complicated at all, 99% of penalty points are down to laziness. These players are playing for money and ESL is a league strtiving to be the most professional out there. If these players cant be bothered to do simple tasks such as pre-match statements (even just a sentence!) or upload replays then they dont deserve to be in EPS winning money that ESL is putting on offer for them. They know what is required of them when they sign up.
For the record im not an EPS admin or anything like that, but I have infact been an EPS player myself, so i'd like to think I know what im talking about.
On October 28 2010 01:31 SpiDaH wrote: Good to see that there is justice in the euro scene, he's probably one of the biggest BM's out there. He wont be missed.
wtf? justice.. europe.. take a deep breath my french friend.
ot: a guy kicked out of EPS. now what... no reason for me to judge his life! its not like he is a 50 year old alcoholic peeing himself.. people here need to chill a bit more.
On October 28 2010 01:45 DeMusliM wrote: I'm actually pretty sad about naniwa getting banned, despite what people think of him he's an ok guy. Things weren't helped much by the ESL admins in this case - Doso, who is actually the worst admin i've ever had to deal with, i and naniwa both asked on multiple occasions on how to do certain stuff such as postponing matchs (as the whole EPS.germany section of the website is in, German.) and he would respond with such idiotic phrases like "--- --- - --- --- ---- -- -- --------" and i wake up the next day with 5 pp's next to my name. Naniwa also had the same problem but unfortunately didn't help himself by refusing to play a match ontime and got a major PP. ESL' rules are also pretty fucking retarded to say the least - for example - i had a match on the 19th scheduled, and i was away from then until the 26th for blizzcon - and i asked if i could pp it to 1 day to 27th, unfortunately that's not allowed even with the exception of being out of the country, and i was awarded alot of pp's. While rules are cool and stuff, you can't have i----- enforce them - as they always tend to do it wrongly. Also naniwa being removed definetely makes the league less interesting, and messes the ranking table up for people like hasu - not really happy with it at all. Sorry Naniwa
somehow I wouldn't be too surprised if you get some penalty points for this post. You know when an admin tells you something you are not supposed to tell anyone what he said in public.
Naniwa has been nothing but a total issue every single time I have dealt with him and always acted like he's 3. I have nothing against DeMuslim but I am taking what he says with a grain of salt. Can't count how many times I set him up with matches vs Root (who he was talking shit about) and would send him 4 reminders per match about when it was and not have him show.
Naniwa imo is a disgrace to the SCII scene. I am not surprised by this, and I have never heard of any other SCII player accruing 25 pp's. The entire American scene has figured it out with only a couple pp's.
On October 28 2010 01:45 DeMusliM wrote: I'm actually pretty sad about naniwa getting banned, despite what people think of him he's an ok guy. Things weren't helped much by the ESL admins in this case - Doso, who is actually the worst admin i've ever had to deal with, i and naniwa both asked on multiple occasions on how to do certain stuff such as postponing matchs (as the whole EPS.germany section of the website is in, German.) and he would respond with such idiotic phrases like "--- --- - --- --- ---- -- -- --------" and i wake up the next day with 5 pp's next to my name. Naniwa also had the same problem but unfortunately didn't help himself by refusing to play a match ontime and got a major PP. ESL' rules are also pretty fucking retarded to say the least - for example - i had a match on the 19th scheduled, and i was away from then until the 26th for blizzcon - and i asked if i could pp it to 1 day to 27th, unfortunately that's not allowed even with the exception of being out of the country, and i was awarded alot of pp's. While rules are cool and stuff, you can't have i----- enforce them - as they always tend to do it wrongly. Also naniwa being removed definetely makes the league less interesting, and messes the ranking table up for people like hasu - not really happy with it at all. Sorry Naniwa
somehow I wouldn't be too surprised if you get some penalty points for this post. You know when an admin tells you something you are not supposed to tell anyone what he said in public.
I think the ESL admins needs to get a life, too many rules for a simple SC2 competition, is it all really necessary? I doubt it, we're all mature players here (or at least anyone in a tourney is). I think a much better system would be, miss one match, can't sign up for the next 4 tourneys run by ESL. That would be a much fairer, and more direct way to 'teach players a lesson' or whatever it is they are trying to do players.
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
nice a nazi in this thread. what has "german ideology" and "NO! FORBIDDEN!" to do with being incapable? atleast try to learn the meaning of german words before writing german
It's been like this for ages. And no, not every season players get so many PP. I doubt the Wc3 EPS was much different to the SC2 EPS. So the rules shouldn't be a problem.
On October 28 2010 01:45 DeMusliM wrote: I'm actually pretty sad about naniwa getting banned, despite what people think of him he's an ok guy. Things weren't helped much by the ESL admins in this case - Doso, who is actually the worst admin i've ever had to deal with, i and naniwa both asked on multiple occasions on how to do certain stuff such as postponing matchs (as the whole EPS.germany section of the website is in, German.) and he would respond with such idiotic phrases like "you are a big boy now, do it yourself" and i wake up the next day with 5 pp's next to my name. Naniwa also had the same problem but unfortunately didn't help himself by refusing to play a match ontime and got a major PP. ESL' rules are also pretty fucking retarded to say the least - for example - i had a match on the 19th scheduled, and i was away from then until the 26th for blizzcon - and i asked if i could pp it to 1 day to 27th, unfortunately that's not allowed even with the exception of being out of the country, and i was awarded alot of pp's. While rules are cool and stuff, you can't have idiots enforce them - as they always tend to do it wrongly. Also naniwa being removed definetely makes the league less interesting, and messes the ranking table up for people like hasu - not really happy with it at all. Sorry Naniwa
Well you have not shown near 5% of the BM that nani has in the past years man, you always were respectful of things on the wc3 scene. Yeah ok maybe EPS admins suck on some points, that you would know better than us that's for sure, but it doesn't stop most players from not getting banned. Sure you will get PP's, but with naniwa's known attitude since I can't even recall, it sure as hell didn't help I'm pretty sure. If he had changed his attitude since the switch to SC2 I would have defended him, but having obsed many of his games, having seen him talk in many channels and having realized that he's still "that" guy just annoys the hell out of me.
On October 28 2010 01:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Naniwa has been nothing but a total issue every single time I have dealt with him and always acted like he's 3. I have nothing against DeMuslim but I am taking what he says with a grain of salt. Can't count how many times I set him up with matches vs Root (who he was talking shit about) and would send him 4 reminders per match about when it was and not have him show.
Naniwa imo is a disgrace to the SCII scene. I am not surprised by this, and I have never heard of any other SCII player accruing 25 pp's. The entire American scene has figured it out with only a couple pp's.
I bet he has been an issue, but i wouldn't take it with a grain of salt what Demuslim just said. The rules has been horrible since forever and there is so much unnecessary rules in this tournament. And it's not the first time EPS admins has been unprofessional as hell.
On October 27 2010 23:11 dondake wrote: Naniwa, Idra, laloush, satini should team up and create biggest BM squad ever.
idra is fine right now.
He just got temp banned again for having a go at WeRRa in the thread on their disbanding. He's improved a lot though to his credit, and in public is pretty professional.
Yeah but I think most people agree that temp ban was just a misunderstanding on what Idra actually meant. I seriously doubt he meant anything not having to do with SC2 gameplay by his post.
Which rules exactly are so horrible and unnecessary? I get that some things might be a bit inconvenient and unflexible but that's just one of the trade-offs, I suppose. This is obviously not accounting for bad admins.
On October 27 2010 23:11 dondake wrote: Naniwa, Idra, laloush, satini should team up and create biggest BM squad ever.
idra is fine right now.
He just got temp banned again for having a go at WeRRa in the thread on their disbanding. He's improved a lot though to his credit, and in public is pretty professional.
Yeah but I think most people agree that temp ban was just a misunderstanding on what Idra actually meant. I seriously doubt he meant anything not having to do with SC2 gameplay by his post.
Which was exactly the problem. The topic had nothing to do with SC2 gameplay.
I am a bit disgusted by the showing of the TL community in this thread.
People condemn BM but they are not behaving properly in this thread either. What is so amusing about a player getting removed from a league? It sucks for the player and it sucks for the league because the table gets messed up.
I'm actually pretty sad about naniwa getting banned, despite what people think of him he's an ok guy. Things weren't helped much by the ESL admins in this case - Doso, who is actually the worst admin i've ever had to deal with, i and naniwa both asked on multiple occasions on how to do certain stuff such as postponing matchs (as the whole EPS.germany section of the website is in, German.) and he would respond with such idiotic phrases like "you are a big boy now, do it yourself" and i wake up the next day with 5 pp's next to my name. Naniwa also had the same problem but unfortunately didn't help himself by refusing to play a match ontime and got a major PP. ESL' rules are also pretty fucking retarded to say the least - for example - i had a match on the 19th scheduled, and i was away from then until the 26th for blizzcon - and i asked if i could pp it to 1 day to 27th, unfortunately that's not allowed even with the exception of being out of the country, and i was awarded alot of pp's. While rules are cool and stuff, you can't have idiots enforce them - as they always tend to do it wrongly. Also naniwa being removed definetely makes the league less interesting, and messes the ranking table up for people like hasu - not really happy with it at all. Sorry Naniwa
Sorry, Benjamin, but now you are in deeeeeeep trouble. Calling this out in public is not the way you are supposed to behave, according to point 3.3 on page 13 of the 69-paged EPS rulebook (srsly, lol). You bad, bad boy, you will get ELEBENTY penalty points for this!
Honestly, who cares about EPS, anyway? Being around in the German bw-scene since '98, right now I couldn't care less about what's happening in this ESL. Recalling how competitional gaming evolved in Germany, I can clearly remember how BW has always been the red-headed step-child compared to the FPS games in the ESL, which only got a deeper interest in SC when SC2 was finally announced. Until then, they were completely lost in bw. And if the players would actually have read those ridiculous 69 pages of the rulebook, they would rather want drop out of that league, anyway. They are more of an employee than a competitor in this league. SC/BW successfully neglected ESL, and as long as ESL puts up these admins and rules, I can not see SC2 surviving in ESL, it'll just slowly die out.
On October 28 2010 02:36 zerotol wrote: I am a bit disgusted by the showing of the TL community in this thread.
People condemn BM but they are not behaving properly in this thread either. What is so amusing about a player getting removed from a league? It sucks for the player and it sucks for the league because the table gets messed up.
He travels to Germany to make a living off of SC2 only to get kicked out of the one league he's supposed to compete in because of BM and not showing up to matches.
Surely that is kind of ironic. I love me some irony either way.
Well I hope this will not have bad side effects for Cloud because 1) I think there will be a reaction towards Nani by MYM and 2) it could risk the whole idea of a progamer house in germany. Unlike Naniwa Cloud seems to adapt way better to the progamer life in Germany even though his results still have space for improvement. Btw. some rules of the EPS may be a bit too severe but in most cases the punishment is quite small. But I mean Nani resheduled the match vs Goody to Monday and ESL TV actually intended to broadcast the game which means that a lot of employees went to the studio and people went on the stream to see the game and Nani cancels it because he was "tired". If esport ever wants to progress in terms of professionalism then punishment is not totally undeserved.
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
nice a nazi in this thread. what has "german ideology" and "NO! FORBIDDEN!" to do with being incapable? atleast try to learn the meaning of german words before writing german
Maybe you should try and not say germans are nazis just because they say say something in german, it makes you a little bit racist dont you think ?
Its NaNiwa's bussiness if he wants to obey the rules, dont know whats all the big fuss about.
i think overall this is a bad move by esl, some of the rules are pretty bad and even when you try your best to follow them then there are like errors on site or something, and they just penalize you. Altho naniwa has been known to be a little rough around the edges sometimes i dont see any mention of bm or anything (which what i was hoping for: that he like flipped out and broke a computer at a lan or punched someone). Either way this sucks
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
nice a nazi in this thread. what has "german ideology" and "NO! FORBIDDEN!" to do with being incapable? atleast try to learn the meaning of german words before writing german
Maybe you should try and not say germans are nazis just because they say say something in german, it makes you a little bit racist dont you think ?
Its NaNiwa's bussiness if he wants to obey the rules, dont know whats all the big fuss about.
what a fail post, dude im from germany and i live in germany. and u are trying to tell me that im a nazi because i say he should learn the meanings of german words before posting anything in german? hahaha
On October 28 2010 02:53 Liquid`HuK wrote: i think overall this is a bad move by esl, some of the rules are pretty bad and even when you try your best to follow them then there are like errors on site or something, and they just penalize you. Altho naniwa has been known to be a little rough around the edges sometimes i dont see any mention of bm or anything (which what i was hoping for: that he like flipped out and broke a computer at a lan or punched someone). Either way this sucks
Yes. The ESL system isn't without flaws and the admins might be less than perfect. So what? You might get a few PP that you don't deserve. This is still much better than to have no - or very lax -rule enforcement at all. This way players at least pay attention to what the rules entail when they have to play their matches. If you look at other tournaments a lot of players just fuck EVERYTHING up by being lazy and ignorant idiots who don't give a fuck about how the tournament goes and if other players' matches are delayed or even impossible due to their disrispectful behaviour, because they have no consequences to be afraid of.
As a ESL follower I'd rather have an irresponsible idiot eliminated than the whole thing delayed because of him. (And if he's that unprofessional he's probably not that good anyway)
On October 28 2010 02:39 zere wrote: Honestly, who cares about EPS, anyway? Being around in the German bw-scene since '98, right now I couldn't care less about what's happening in this ESL. Recalling how competitional gaming evolved in Germany, I can clearly remember how BW has always been the red-headed step-child compared to the FPS games in the ESL, which only got a deeper interest in SC when SC2 was finally announced. Until then, they were completely lost in bw. And if the players would actually have read those ridiculous 69 pages of the rulebook, they would rather want drop out of that league, anyway. They are more of an employee than a competitor in this league. SC/BW successfully neglected ESL, and as long as ESL puts up these admins and rules, I can not see SC2 surviving in ESL, it'll just slowly die out.
These kind of thoughts is exactly why "BW has always been the red-headed step-child compared to the FPS games in the ESL". You are part of the problem, show soem support for your scene if you want it to grow.
As far as naninwa getting kicked out. Shrug, mix of bad administration, but you cant completely blame it on the administration, as Naniwa is known for his behavior. The guys a bit of a dick, as someone who follows that league, as a fan I am a bit happy to see him go. Karma is a bitch.
I played NaNiwa in Zotac cup once and this is how it happend: 1. i was like yaaay gonna play a pro and learn something 2. wow waiting 35mins now... ill start pm 3. Naniwa :"stfu im playing right now have to concentrate i pwn you anyway bla bla etc... 4. mhhhh whispering admin 5. Admin: you simply have to wait we both know he would win against you
so i waited and after i finally got to play he flames me in the end
so i am so happy a player like this finally gets punished treating "newbish" players (im 1900 diamond) like shit and thinks hes god even though he wasnt directly banned for BM but still he was banned
Karma calling
im sorry for players of the eps like hasu though cause its not his fault naniwa was too lazy to play games he actually came to germany for
honestly I don't see how some of you can feel bad for him. It seems like he's BMing players left and right and he's being irresponsible and not uploading replays. If this was an actual job and you're blasting your boss/co-workers, no showing for work and not doing what you're supposed to, you're going to get canned. I'm willing to bet that his parents kicked him out of the house because he wasn't going to school and was doing nothing but play SC2 all day.
(Off topic but remember the casting live vs casting replays debate from a while back? I think it was diamond or some other tournament mods were claiming that there's always people who would not upload replays while people who are pro-replay said that they would upload them if they were punished for not doing it)
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
You, sir, are clueless.
If anything, German ideology has always been about the collective, putting the community in front of yourself. Probably the most social and outgoing people in Europe, with the benefits that come from that: Being successful, as team work > individualism (sup France). Germans' proneness to applying rules and regulations aren't about being "nazi" as you obviously imply, but about making the collective function well over time, as has been the case for their people for hundreds of years.
People have gotten the ban hammer for less ignorant posts than yours...
On October 28 2010 02:53 Liquid`HuK wrote: i think overall this is a bad move by esl, some of the rules are pretty bad and even when you try your best to follow them then there are like errors on site or something, and they just penalize you. Altho naniwa has been known to be a little rough around the edges sometimes i dont see any mention of bm or anything (which what i was hoping for: that he like flipped out and broke a computer at a lan or punched someone). Either way this sucks
I lol'd at that part sir. Well played
On October 28 2010 03:07 crazeman wrote: (Off topic but remember the casting live vs casting replays debate from a while back? I think it was diamond or some other tournament mods were claiming that there's always people who would not upload replays while people who are pro-replay said that they would upload them if they were punished for not doing it)
On October 28 2010 03:02 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: I played NaNiwa in Zotac cup once and this is how it happend: 1. i was like yaaay gonna play a pro and learn something 2. wow waiting 35mins now... ill start pm 3. Naniwa :"stfu im playing right now have to concentrate i pwn you anyway bla bla etc... 4. mhhhh whispering admin 5. Admin: you simply have to wait we both know he would win against you
so i waited and after i finally got to play he flames me in the end
so i am so happy a player like this finally gets punished treating "newbish" players (im 1900 diamond) like shit and thinks hes god even though he wasnt directly banned for BM but still he was banned
Karma calling
im sorry for players of the eps like hasu though cause its not his fault naniwa was too lazy to play games he actually came to germany for
wow did an admin say that? i'd have him kicked out immediatelly if he'd had said that to me.
It is ok to ragequit, it is ok to whine about inbalance, but you have to respect other players. That's a big point in every sport. He hasn't that kind of respect - not ingame, not in his statements:
I am playing against goody tonight in EPS. he plays extremly weird so i think i will have a very hard time against his super lame style, i do not know why goody is always very arrogant and incapable of compromising so that other players can schedule games with him. Maybe i just missunderstood him but i dont think so. GG GL tonight.
Quick translation for those who don't trust Google translate:
The Swedish Starcraft 2 play Johan 'Naniwa" Lucchesi has to leave the running Pro Series. Just Before the beginning of the twelfth day of play he received additional penalty points, that together with his previous offenses resulted in a reduction of prize money by 30%. By the rules, this mandated an unwavering and immediate exclusion from the ESL Pro Series 17.
During the run of the Season Johan Naniwa Lucchesi had already received 10 minor Penaltys for smaller infractions, like delay of game, a late statement, and the late use of wildcards. At the rematch on the tenth day of play against Sascha GoOdy Lupp, Naniwa did not show up, from which a major penalty resulted. For further smaller offenses he received an additional fifteen minor penalties and reached with that the limit of penalty points, resulting in a disqualification. All matches played, as well as those upcoming, of Johan Naniwa Lucchesi were annulled and erased.
The Italian, living in Sweden, moved together with his fellow Clan member Carlo ClouD Giannacco to German, to participate in the ESL Pro Series. With a history of eight wins and three defeats he was sitting on the third rank and was thought to be a shoe in for the upcoming Alienware Finals.
Sort of crazy, but hey if you don't show you better have a good excuse if you don't want to be kicked.
Naniwa is supposed to be a "progamer". He does nothing but play SC2. I really can't understand how you can be that unprofessional when this is the only thing you do and this is your only source of income. Also I do not agree with Demuslim's statement´.
If you join a league you better know the rules. Bad admins or not, complaining later on that the rules are in german when it's a freakin german league is just inacceptable. As a member of a big clan there should be no problem at all to get a teammanager to help you understand the rules of the one league your playing in. What the hell are teammanagers for? Also if you ask any german player in the scene nicely he will probably explain it to you anyways but i guess being nice is not one of Naniwa's strenghts.
Gaming is the only thing he does. They have one single playday per week and they can postpone games if they stick to the rules. Other EPS-players have actual jobs or study and they still manage their games properly. And Naniwa didn't even have something like Blizzcon going on. He just didn't show up or didn't feel like playing or writing statements. There is no excuse at all other than him being childish and unprofessional as always.
On October 28 2010 03:02 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: I played NaNiwa in Zotac cup once and this is how it happend: 1. i was like yaaay gonna play a pro and learn something 2. wow waiting 35mins now... ill start pm 3. Naniwa :"stfu im playing right now have to concentrate i pwn you anyway bla bla etc... 4. mhhhh whispering admin 5. Admin: you simply have to wait we both know he would win against you
so i waited and after i finally got to play he flames me in the end
so i am so happy a player like this finally gets punished treating "newbish" players (im 1900 diamond) like shit and thinks hes god even though he wasnt directly banned for BM but still he was banned
Karma calling
im sorry for players of the eps like hasu though cause its not his fault naniwa was too lazy to play games he actually came to germany for
I think the funniest part about this whole thing is how Naniwa is always first to call someone else a noob and purport his 'god-dom' at SC2, but yet when you look at his achievements in the game so far, its pretty lack luster to say the least.
On October 28 2010 03:02 R3m3mb3rM3 wrote: I played NaNiwa in Zotac cup once and this is how it happend: 1. i was like yaaay gonna play a pro and learn something 2. wow waiting 35mins now... ill start pm 3. Naniwa :"stfu im playing right now have to concentrate i pwn you anyway bla bla etc... 4. mhhhh whispering admin 5. Admin: you simply have to wait we both know he would win against you
so i waited and after i finally got to play he flames me in the end
so i am so happy a player like this finally gets punished treating "newbish" players (im 1900 diamond) like shit and thinks hes god even though he wasnt directly banned for BM but still he was banned
Karma calling
im sorry for players of the eps like hasu though cause its not his fault naniwa was too lazy to play games he actually came to germany for
I have no sympathy for players who make others wait on them while they do whatever strikes their fancy. Completely disrespectful.
On October 28 2010 01:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have nothing against DeMuslim but I am taking what he says with a grain of salt. Can't count how many times I set him up with matches vs Root (who he was talking shit about) and would send him 4 reminders per match about when it was and not have him show. .
iccup.diamond - i never had anything to do with root gaming? I don't actually know who you are sorry. If you can find any kinda proof of that actually happening, please show me, since really, there's no point dragging my name through the mud.
But just had a game where i had 114 supply vs miou's 110 supply (he still had 12 supply in construction) and a fight was about to commense (which i had a 180 degree flank on him) and sc2 crashed for me (i had the error message and such) and the defwin was awarded to miou, it's things like that, that make the league quite hard to cope with at times - i've seen regames happen out of sure wins, but never have i seen defwins happen against players who actually have the edge.
On October 28 2010 05:02 DeMusliM wrote: iccup.diamond - i never had anything to do with root gaming? I don't actually know who you are sorry.
But just had a game where i had 114 supply vs miou's 110 supply (he still had 12 supply in construction) and a fight was about to commense (which i had a 180 degree flank on him) and sc2 crashed for me (i had the error message and such) and the defwin was awarded to miou, it's things like that, that make the league quite hard to cope with at times - i've seen regames happen out of sure wins, but never have i seen defwins happen against players who actually have the edge.
lol thousands of people watched ur game vs miou, miou had an advantage when ur game "crashed" so he does not have to give a re-game.
On October 28 2010 05:02 DeMusliM wrote: iccup.diamond - i never had anything to do with root gaming? I don't actually know who you are sorry.
I'm sorry if that was misleading. I meant to say I set up matches with Naniwa several times with Root players and he never showed once. Not you. Sorry for the confusion.
On October 28 2010 01:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have nothing against DeMuslim but I am taking what he says with a grain of salt. Can't count how many times I set him up with matches vs Root (who he was talking shit about) and would send him 4 reminders per match about when it was and not have him show. .
iccup.diamond - i never had anything to do with root gaming? I don't actually know who you are sorry. If you can find any kinda proof of that actually happening, please show me, since really, there's no point dragging my name through the mud.
But just had a game where i had 114 supply vs miou's 110 supply (he still had 12 supply in construction) and a fight was about to commense (which i had a 180 degree flank on him) and sc2 crashed for me (i had the error message and such) and the defwin was awarded to miou, it's things like that, that make the league quite hard to cope with at times - i've seen regames happen out of sure wins, but never have i seen defwins happen against players who actually have the edge.
i think diamond is talking about setting up matches for naniwa vs root, not you vs root.
/edit: too slow typing ^^
anyway, nani clearly now has the image of a bm-player for anyone who didn´t know till now. kind of sad, but it seems like it´s true.
without the esl, esport would be nothing today. ESL would not be in its global position without their rules, so don't blame the rules for human mistakes.
I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
sure you might argue that the ESL admins should help the players who arent speaking german with a translation fo the rules, but then again, the admins have ALOT to do and its a german EPS, so i can understand that they dont think that this is their job. in my opinion it is the job of MYM to translate the rules for their players and if they dont do that, its not the fault of the ESL admins.
Good. Rules should be followed. The people who organize things rarely get enough credit and unless they put up rules and implement them things won't go smoothly; replays won't be up, results won't be up, games won't be played in time etc.
Regarding bm, I think it's pretty clear that he's just an immature douchebag with a hot temper and attracted to conflict. That's his choice, who cares. Though I think it would be good if organizers of events posted in the rules that you're not allowed to be bad manner. If they don't, then that's their choice as well...
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
On October 28 2010 01:52 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I have nothing against DeMuslim but I am taking what he says with a grain of salt. Can't count how many times I set him up with matches vs Root (who he was talking shit about) and would send him 4 reminders per match about when it was and not have him show. .
iccup.diamond - i never had anything to do with root gaming? I don't actually know who you are sorry. If you can find any kinda proof of that actually happening, please show me, since really, there's no point dragging my name through the mud.
But just had a game where i had 114 supply vs miou's 110 supply (he still had 12 supply in construction) and a fight was about to commense (which i had a 180 degree flank on him) and sc2 crashed for me (i had the error message and such) and the defwin was awarded to miou, it's things like that, that make the league quite hard to cope with at times - i've seen regames happen out of sure wins, but never have i seen defwins happen against players who actually have the edge.
Usually a regame happens when the player with the advantage drops, not the other way around. Your pc crashed and miou had the advantage or it was even at best. The rules clearly say that if someone crashes he gets a loss unless he had a big advantage which you didn't have. Giving a regame is totally miou's decision there. As an admin you have to give him the win or let him decide because YOU crashed. Rules are rules and this is the best possible rule you can make out of the crash issue. If there is an auto-regame rule in place people could abuse it.
Other than that I have to agree, some PPs are not deservered and seem very petty. In Naniwa's case it was absolutely the correct decision though.
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
yes the rule about statements not being too early might be a bit too strict, but then again, when they made the rule they probably didnt want people to just copy paste the same statement 15 times at the beginning of the seasons, but instead write something with suits the current situation, so they just made up some numbers for a timeframe in which the statement should be posted, which happens to be between 1 week and 1 day before the match. on the other hand, you only get 1 PP for something like this which is really not a big deal...
as far as i know, exceptions can be made if you contact the admins well ahead in time, which, as far as i know, you didnt.
players always only see things out of their own view, never out of the view of the admins or the organisation of ESL TV, for which it is terrible if players change schedule on short notice.
I don't really want to argue over it, but i can pretty much list the next 3 things that'll happen in that game that put me in a clear winning position.
I had 50 scvs, he had 48 (despite being 3 base, it was only just up) - my army was actually superior to his, he only had 4 tanks, 8 marines some marauders and 2 ground vikings adding up to 22 units in total in his army. I had 2 groups of 23 units each consisting of MMM + 1 (almost 2 tanks) from 2 sides. I would have used scvs which, since the patch soak up tank shots like wildfire - i would have lost roughly 15-18 supply, with him losing his total army, putting me ahead by far (while being on equal harvester count) - with an island expo he can't defend and no army, he would have then lost that island base, along with 25 scvs - making me have double the economy, while he is still rebuilding his force (and he would no longer be ahead in tanks, due to me now building them).
With those events set in place, i was in the lead sir, no matter how you look at it, that fight was certainly a bad one for him and is definitely the mistake he needed to make coming to that position in order for me to win the game.
@darkforce, i only knew myself the details 1 week before hand, i told the admins 3 weeks previous that i might be away during the middle/late middle of the month and if there's anything i can do while keeping it confidential (blizzard want it confidential) - it wasn't as if i didn't give any warning, it's just the 2 weeks notice for PP, given i only had the flights confirmed very shortly before it didn't really give me any other choice, and with the game not being allowed outside of the play week - even though i did give the 3 weeks warning beforehand that i might not be around for 2 matchs (i did manage to postpone the miou match by 1 day - but i didn't realise the flights would also collide with my Inuh game) it wasn't really my fault. So while i couldn't set any solid date, as i didn't have any dates myself - i did do what i could with the little info i had, and i still think it was kinda harsh to award me with the PP's anyhow.
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
yes the rule about statements not being too early might be a bit too strict, but then again, when they made the rule they probably didnt want people to just copy paste the same statement 15 times at the beginning of the seasons, but instead write something with suits the current situation, so they just made up some numbers for a timeframe in which the statement should be posted, which happens to be between 1 week and 1 day before the match. on the other hand, you only get 1 PP for something like this which is really not a big deal...
as far as i know, exceptions can be made if you contact the admins well ahead in time, which, as far as i know, you didnt.
players always only see things out of their own view, never out of the view of the admins or the organisation of ESL TV, for which it is terrible if players change schedule on short notice.
He was under a NDA. ESL definitely should have been more flexible in this situation. If Demuslim told it earlier everyone would have known he goes to Blizzcon.
And after watching Demuslims Game I am pretty sure the fight would have been a catastrophe for Miou but I can't blame ESL on their decision as they need to have that rule to prevent abuse. The majority of top players would have decided to give a regame though.
I can understand that ESL rules are new and might often seem odd to foreign players, I've experienced it when we were showing the EMS on ESL TV. We were quite lenient at the start to ease players into ESL and what it is all about and often we would work with players to find a solution that fit rather than to play by the rules without any exceptions. The ESL Pro Series is a league with quite some publicity though and it shouldn't be too hard to follow its rules. Take Darkforce, he has no PPs at all. Others have some, which is still not that bad. Getting 25 minor and 1 major PP though, that's not something that happens because you're just a bit sloppy. I cannot understand how a team that finances a player's stay in Germany would not look after things like these more.
Best news I've read in a while, not for his bm but for his insanely boring and 1basing play style. I'd rather watch pain dry then watch him play starcraft2.
There seem to be different opinions about the outcome of the game. Socke seems to think that Miou had a significant advantage and I agree with him tho I probably don't have the same understanding of the game as you do. Nevertheless, I don't see any wiggling room for an admin other than let Miou decide in this situation. It was an unfortunate incident but I think the ESL can't be blamed this time.
So I was going to "flame" Demuslim for complaining that he couldnt go to Blizzcon without penalty points, even though the rules clearly state that the absent player has to inform the ESL 2 weeks ahead, and him not doing so.
But then his profile says "3 Minor Penalty" but the rules state that the violation is worth 6 pp. Or did he miss an ESL TV match (no iFNG)? Because then I dont understand why they would state "(Wildcard 2-Wochen-Frist)" (Wildcard 2 week period), because the rules say ESL TV matches only have a 48hour deadline (and 3 penalty points).
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
yes the rule about statements not being too early might be a bit too strict, but then again, when they made the rule they probably didnt want people to just copy paste the same statement 15 times at the beginning of the seasons, but instead write something with suits the current situation, so they just made up some numbers for a timeframe in which the statement should be posted, which happens to be between 1 week and 1 day before the match. on the other hand, you only get 1 PP for something like this which is really not a big deal...
as far as i know, exceptions can be made if you contact the admins well ahead in time, which, as far as i know, you didnt.
players always only see things out of their own view, never out of the view of the admins or the organisation of ESL TV, for which it is terrible if players change schedule on short notice.
He was under a NDA. ESL definitely should have been more flexible in this situation. If Demuslim told it earlier everyone would have known he goes to Blizzcon.
And after watching Demuslims Game I am pretty sure the fight would have been a catastrophe for Miou but I can't blame ESL on their decision as they need to have that rule to prevent abuse. The majority of top players would have decided to give a regame though.
Why so much hate towards the ESL? They didnt change any rules during the season, so everybody had the Chance to inform themselves before the EPS started. If the choose to not do so ... well thats stupid. And for the 3 non-german speaking players in the EPS - their team-management just has to help them!!!! if they don`t they fail. #simple
It is not like you get kicked out of the EPS for missing to upload 1 or 2 replays or make a match statement to early or to late. BUT if u manage to collect so many PPs that it equals 30% pricemoney you did lots of stuff wrong. I feel sad for Naniwa because he is a strong player and with some better support he would still play in the EPS with good chance to attend the finals and win a nice pot of money. And i feel sad for the Fans and the players, because now shit just got mixed up and the League is a lot weaker without the swedish Protoss.
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
yes the rule about statements not being too early might be a bit too strict, but then again, when they made the rule they probably didnt want people to just copy paste the same statement 15 times at the beginning of the seasons, but instead write something with suits the current situation, so they just made up some numbers for a timeframe in which the statement should be posted, which happens to be between 1 week and 1 day before the match. on the other hand, you only get 1 PP for something like this which is really not a big deal...
as far as i know, exceptions can be made if you contact the admins well ahead in time, which, as far as i know, you didnt.
players always only see things out of their own view, never out of the view of the admins or the organisation of ESL TV, for which it is terrible if players change schedule on short notice.
He was under a NDA. ESL definitely should have been more flexible in this situation. If Demuslim told it earlier everyone would have known he goes to Blizzcon.
And after watching Demuslims Game I am pretty sure the fight would have been a catastrophe for Miou but I can't blame ESL on their decision as they need to have that rule to prevent abuse. The majority of top players would have decided to give a regame though.
Thanks for understanding my situation
May I ask where the rules state that you need to have a reason for postponing a match?
just skimmed through the rules, does anyone know if you also get penalty points for using a wild card too late if you have a really good reason (like being seriously sick)? In the rules there is nothing about exceptions so I wonder if they just do it by the book or have some common sense.
If I recall correctly Naniwa was ill a few weeks ago, not sure about the exact date but it might be connected to his penalty points for late wild card at 10th of October.
On October 28 2010 05:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: I absolutely cannot understand the people who defend naniwa here. Its absolutely not a big deal to obey to rules, as can be seen by quite a few people having none or very few PPs. Almost all the penalty points that were given to naniwa are because he forgot things or was organized very bad. his teammate, cloud, cannot speak english either and is in the same situation as he is, yet he only accumulated 5 PPs, of which he got most at the start for some smallish things. After that he learned from it and didnt get any more.
While i agree alot of his PP's came because he just, didn't do as he should, some of the PP's that people get are totally unwarranted.
For example - you're saying people should be organised well and such? i got PP's for having too early statements ... Which, let's be fair is abit silly - even to the point where i had a tournament the week and i couldn't postpone it to 1 day out of the play week, i think little exceptions should be made, or atleast thought about for future seasons as, while yes - people who are unorganised or specifically try and make the admins' jobs harder do deserve them, others with pp's like my own, i don't really think i deserved them.
yes the rule about statements not being too early might be a bit too strict, but then again, when they made the rule they probably didnt want people to just copy paste the same statement 15 times at the beginning of the seasons, but instead write something with suits the current situation, so they just made up some numbers for a timeframe in which the statement should be posted, which happens to be between 1 week and 1 day before the match. on the other hand, you only get 1 PP for something like this which is really not a big deal...
as far as i know, exceptions can be made if you contact the admins well ahead in time, which, as far as i know, you didnt.
players always only see things out of their own view, never out of the view of the admins or the organisation of ESL TV, for which it is terrible if players change schedule on short notice.
He was under a NDA. ESL definitely should have been more flexible in this situation. If Demuslim told it earlier everyone would have known he goes to Blizzcon.
And after watching Demuslims Game I am pretty sure the fight would have been a catastrophe for Miou but I can't blame ESL on their decision as they need to have that rule to prevent abuse. The majority of top players would have decided to give a regame though.
Thanks for understanding my situation
May I ask where the rules state that you need to have a reason for postponing a match?
Main problem was i didn't actually know when it was happening or when my flights would be, and they got changed within the week of my match which is why it was all too late (since the players don't actually book their flights, they have it booked for them by blizzard) - which meant when i actually did know for certain (rather than giving a rough estimate which is when i postponed the miou match to 1 day after landing) i didn't know it would take up the time of my previous match also, so while i did try plan ahead i couldn't do it by just estimating time slots - which is why i asked for the exception to be made, for the game of the 19th to be played out of the play week (i moved mious match from the 26th to the 27th) as it wasn't like i was trying to be obnoxious in anyway, it was just something i couldn't help.
And the admins let miou decide if he wanted a regame or defwin or not, - miou has been a friend of mine for the past few years and i've never done anything treacherous towards him, he made a call which i totally do not agree with, and that i find totally unsportsmanlike considering he has no chance at making the finals anyhow and that he was supposedly a friend. It's strange how friends act when they are actually put in a situation when they have to make a decision you or them.
It is ok to ragequit, it is ok to whine about inbalance, but you have to respect other players. That's a big point in every sport. He hasn't that kind of respect - not ingame, not in his statements:
I am playing against goody tonight in EPS. he plays extremly weird so i think i will have a very hard time against his super lame style, i do not know why goody is always very arrogant and incapable of compromising so that other players can schedule games with him. Maybe i just missunderstood him but i dont think so. GG GL tonight.
So much flame on Naniwa... he is the most hilarious player on this game. And he dominates.. all the kids in here who say he's bad are probably because he whooped you on ladder... but im looking forward to his rage on Vent later poor nani
On October 28 2010 05:47 TBO wrote: just skimmed through the rules, does anyone know if you also get penalty points for using a wild card too late if you have a really good reason (like being seriously sick)? In the rules there is nothing about exceptions so I wonder if they just do it by the book or have some common sense.
If I recall correctly Naniwa was ill a few weeks ago, not sure about the exact date but it might be connected to his penalty points for late wild card at 10th of October.
even if you are really sick with flu, you will get PP's (i checked that out today, i have the flu still, i would have got anything up to 8 pps apparantly)
On October 28 2010 05:47 TBO wrote: just skimmed through the rules, does anyone know if you also get penalty points for using a wild card too late if you have a really good reason (like being seriously sick)? In the rules there is nothing about exceptions so I wonder if they just do it by the book or have some common sense.
If I recall correctly Naniwa was ill a few weeks ago, not sure about the exact date but it might be connected to his penalty points for late wild card at 10th of October.
Depends on the situation tough - If its needed (e.g. if you need to visit the hospital immediately) and you need to stay there for a while, sure we can use exceptions.
On October 28 2010 05:51 DeMusliM wrote: And the admins let miou decide if he wanted a regame or defwin or not, - miou has been a friend of mine for the past few years and i've never done anything treacherous towards him, he made a call which i totally do not agree with, and that i find totally unsportsmanlike considering he has no chance at making the finals anyhow and that he was supposedly a friend. It's strange how friends act when they are actually put in a situation when they have to make a decision you or them.
I can understand Miou though - he was, at least to most observers' eyes, at an advantage. Winning a game equals money. Given the choice and considering that he used a strategy he cannot easily play twice, I am not surprised. I don't think he was taking revenge or doing it to hurt you, he just made a logical choice. In any way, this has almost nothing to do with ESL, apart from the fact that they made the rules this way (which makes sense, otherwise disconnects or crashes would be impossible to solve and leave room for abuse).
On October 28 2010 05:47 TBO wrote: just skimmed through the rules, does anyone know if you also get penalty points for using a wild card too late if you have a really good reason (like being seriously sick)? In the rules there is nothing about exceptions so I wonder if they just do it by the book or have some common sense.
If I recall correctly Naniwa was ill a few weeks ago, not sure about the exact date but it might be connected to his penalty points for late wild card at 10th of October.
Depends on the situation tough - If its needed (e.g. if you need to visit the hospital immediately) and you need to stay there for a while, sure we can use exceptions.
so having Chicken Pox and fever (something where you don't need to go to the hospital) would be something which gets you PPs?
haha maybe u need a doctor's note? still it's hard to make that distinction, since the argument of being sick,if u just want to postpone a match,would of course be abused again. All in all the system seems pretty fair to me, especially considering some people having none pps at all.
On October 28 2010 06:09 TheMexican wrote: haha maybe u need a doctor's note? still it's hard to make that distinction, since the argument of being sick,if u just want to postpone a match,would of course be abused again. All in all the system seems pretty fair to me, especially considering some people having none pps at all.
Then give a limit per season or whatever. Its retarded that you get PP if your sick but if you don't play you get punished for it. That needs to be changed.
i don't know how's the healthcare system in germany but here in czech republic we have to pay for each visit at a doctor's office, i also usually prefer not even go visit a doctor and rather stay home
some rules are indeed dumb i think the penalty points system is really good, but the admins should be more benevolent
on monday naniwa didn't attend to his match cause 'being tired from DSRack lan at the weekend' on tuesday he first doesn't want to play because he is still tired and stuff and leaves the lost game with something like 'cant make decisions when i'm that tired" without gg. as a person who pays for esl tv premium i can only support rules that are as strict as they have to be to make sure the EPS runs on a close to normal schedule as long as they have to deal with immature kids like nani.
On October 28 2010 06:14 PredY wrote: i don't know how's the healthcare system in germany but here in czech republic we have to pay for each visit at a doctor's office, i also usually prefer not even go visit a doctor and rather stay home
you only have to pay once per month here. so its like a health flatrate for one month. so if you dont want to go to work it costs you 10 Euro offtopic, my bad.
you only have to pay once per month here. so its like a health flatrate for one month. so if you dont want to go to work it costs you 10 Euro offtopic, my bad
Wrong its 10€ per quarter (Quartal)
This thread is getting kind of outta ure supposed to bash Naniwa not ESL, also its not about any problems Demuslim has with this one lost game he deserved to loose in anyway by the rules. So plz start flaming Naniwa again and not the ESL thanks.
I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
But i'm 100% behind Demuslim , i was watching the game and he was about to crush miou. Also ESL is not without fault, i can remember several occations in the past where they just made the wrong calls and tried to push them trought like nothing happend and only outcry from the community could prevent injustice.
you only have to pay once per month here. so its like a health flatrate for one month. so if you dont want to go to work it costs you 10 Euro offtopic, my bad
Wrong its 10€ per quarter (Quartal)
This thread is getting kind of outta ure supposed to bash Naniwa not ESL, also its not about any problems Demuslim has with this one lost game he deserved to loose in anyway by the rules. So plz start flaming Naniwa again and not the ESL thanks.
Who are you to decide what we're "supposed" to do?
On October 28 2010 06:50 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote: I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
You are getting the wrong idea. He wasn't banned for his BM but the accumulation of PP from bad punctuation and general sloppiness. Yeah we all know he rages a lot but that should be independent of this topic.
What about IEM Europe? Is Naniwa banned from this, too? Because he qualified as a German EPS member I think. And who would replace him?
Other than that, I can only say he had it coming. Rules are needed if one wants to achieve a certain profesionality in e-sports. Especially given the immaturity displayed by some of the "pro" gamers. Korean tournaments are much more less lenient with their rules..
On October 28 2010 06:50 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote: I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
You are getting the wrong idea. He wasn't banned for his BM but the accumulation of PP from bad punctuation and general sloppiness. Yeah we all know he rages a lot but that should be independent of this topic.
Afaik BM stands for bad manners and this includes (at least for me) not only being an ass to other people but also not doing what you are supposed to do (like not uploading replays and so on).
He did a LOT of stuff like that and i mean if you are playing SC2 on a professional level you have to take it like a job, because it pays your bills.
Me personaly i don't like reporting what i do at work (i have to report what project i spend my time on at work) because it's a lot of work which doesn't accomplish anything besides filling out statistics for the guys up stairs but i still do it cause it's part of my job. Naniwa seems unable to do stuff like that so he gets banned (fired from his pro gamer job).
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
Sorry but can a Mod plz take care of that, it's totally inappropriate..
Haha. Germany will never change :D. Same manners as always. Somebody does anything you go snitch out on your fellow man to big brother. Gestapo back in the days, TL-net moderator 2 day.
On October 28 2010 05:30 DeMusliM wrote: I don't really want to argue over it, but i can pretty much list the next 3 things that'll happen in that game that put me in a clear winning position.
I had 50 scvs, he had 48 (despite being 3 base, it was only just up) - my army was actually superior to his, he only had 4 tanks, 8 marines some marauders and 2 ground vikings adding up to 22 units in total in his army. I had 2 groups of 23 units each consisting of MMM + 1 (almost 2 tanks) from 2 sides. I would have used scvs which, since the patch soak up tank shots like wildfire - i would have lost roughly 15-18 supply, with him losing his total army, putting me ahead by far (while being on equal harvester count) - with an island expo he can't defend and no army, he would have then lost that island base, along with 25 scvs - making me have double the economy, while he is still rebuilding his force (and he would no longer be ahead in tanks, due to me now building them).
With those events set in place, i was in the lead sir, no matter how you look at it, that fight was certainly a bad one for him and is definitely the mistake he needed to make coming to that position in order for me to win the game.
@darkforce, i only knew myself the details 1 week before hand, i told the admins 3 weeks previous that i might be away during the middle/late middle of the month and if there's anything i can do while keeping it confidential (blizzard want it confidential) - it wasn't as if i didn't give any warning, it's just the 2 weeks notice for PP, given i only had the flights confirmed very shortly before it didn't really give me any other choice, and with the game not being allowed outside of the play week - even though i did give the 3 weeks warning beforehand that i might not be around for 2 matchs (i did manage to postpone the miou match by 1 day - but i didn't realise the flights would also collide with my Inuh game) it wasn't really my fault. So while i couldn't set any solid date, as i didn't have any dates myself - i did do what i could with the little info i had, and i still think it was kinda harsh to award me with the PP's anyhow.
1. I saw that game and i think that you would have won game 3 without too much struggle...Miou had to take the fight and if he had lost the fight (which probably would have been the case) he would have lost his whole army without the possibilty of retreating. On the other hand i have to admit that miou isnt a great player and struggles to not get to the relegation placement. And when such a player is facing one of the best terrans in europe, he has a mental disadvantage beforehand. His nervousness would have increased in the regame, since he had a rather good start with his blueflame hellions in the beginning and i can*t imagine that he thought he could pull that off again. I have to admit that there would have been a regame if an admin,who is a very good sc2 player in the same time, would have watched the replay. But since the admins arent that good, this was not the case. I think admins should seek the advice of unbiased good players for that kind of decisions. Overall i can understand that you are reasonably pissed off.
2. I think there was somehow a little conflict between ESL, the admins and Naniwa. He criticised the ESL in one statemend, because he was sick and he still had to play a game vs Hasuobs. He said stuff like :"ESL doesnt care about human rights etc".
3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
On October 28 2010 06:50 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote: I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
You are getting the wrong idea. He wasn't banned for his BM but the accumulation of PP from bad punctuation and general sloppiness. Yeah we all know he rages a lot but that should be independent of this topic.
You could say it all stems from his piss poor attitude.
On October 28 2010 01:55 TeamSoliduss wrote: German ideology didn't evolve much...
NEIN! VERBOTEN!!
Sorry but can a Mod plz take care of that, it's totally inappropriate..
Haha. Germany will never change :D. Same manners as always. Somebody does anything you go snitch out on your fellow man to big brother. Gestapo back in the days, TL-net moderator 2 day.
I read what DeMuslim has to say, and I find his frustration in place. If a person has to travel to such events as Blizzcon with their confidentiality, they should be understanding.
Rules are good and right, but being overly punctual can be inhumane, a bit too robotic. A sick person is sick, can't be helped. Even in football, with all the millions (of people and $) involved, stars can skip the matches, because they are human. No point in punishing them.
Players have to be listened, administrators or team managers have to try to accommodate for foreigners. It's like a no-brainer. They should look at how a german, Dario Wunsch, is treated in Korea and GSL.
On October 28 2010 06:50 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote: I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
You are getting the wrong idea. He wasn't banned for his BM but the accumulation of PP from bad punctuation and general sloppiness. Yeah we all know he rages a lot but that should be independent of this topic.
You could say it all stems from his piss poor attitude.
Maybe, but that's not why he got kicked out, he was late for games didn't make statements on games and didn't show up to a game. It wouldn't matter if he was the most humble player out there, there were rules set in place and he didn't follow them. If this was WhiteRa or Nony or I don't care who else in the same situation, they'd still get the boot. You can't just not show up to a job and expect to not get fired.
On October 28 2010 06:50 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote: I can fully support banning Naniwa, BM is nice and cool from time to time but he just over did it.
You are getting the wrong idea. He wasn't banned for his BM but the accumulation of PP from bad punctuation and general sloppiness. Yeah we all know he rages a lot but that should be independent of this topic.
You could say it all stems from his piss poor attitude.
Maybe, but that's not why he got kicked out, he was late for games didn't make statements on games and didn't show up to a game. It wouldn't matter if he was the most humble player out there, there were rules set in place and he didn't follow them. If this was WhiteRa or Nony or I don't care who else in the same situation, they'd still get the boot. You can't just not show up to a job and expect to not get fired.
Yes, I'm saying the reason he doesn't bother making statements or showing up for games is the same reason he flames people every time he loses a game - his attitude stinks.
I think Naniwa totally deserve the ban that he got. For him to mass up so many PP just show the slopiness on his part and MYM.
That said, I believe a completely rigid and unflexible rule system of ESL is stupid. I can understand some rigid rules are require to eliminate uncertainties and to keep everything on schedule for ESL TV but a lot of the rules are written without considering all the implication. Even the GSL is flexible enough to switch schedule for illness (TLO) and Blizzcon (Maka, NexGenius, Boxer, FD, Loner).
To Demuslim: Whatever you do, we will always cheer and support you
On October 28 2010 07:31 Xxavi wrote: Players have to be listened, administrators or team managers have to try to accommodate for foreigners. It's like a no-brainer. They should look at how a german, Dario Wunsch, is treated in Korea and GSL.
You are absolutely mistaken here. The german EPS is NOT an international league like GSL. It is for German residents, just like the American ESL series are only for American residents. If lets say a French guy decides to move to the US to play in American IEM do you expect their admins to translate everything to French?
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote: 3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
I dont know where you are getting this from. You are making assumptions and generalizations which i find wrong in so many ways i cannot even tell.
In this thread alone you'll find several germans and therefor vocal parts of the german community questioning the esl's decision considering the demuslim miou game. Also look at all the events Take put together with demuslim being at his home and stuff. I've never heard someone talking down on demuslim or something like that. on the contrary i would much rather call all the stuff Take did a very warm welcome. I can only speak for myself and the people I know and from that standpoint i have to say that demuslim is absolutely loved here in germany. Not only for his play but also for the fun guy he seems to be. I'm definitely chearing for him and so are others, so please dont make such dumb generalizsations.
naniwa is a whole other story, but i feel that even he has beem treated with respect by the community and by the other players up until now. Other than that you cant really blame anyone for not cheering for him after all the attitude he has shown. Nevertheless this has nothing to do with some sort of german xenophobia or something like that
On October 28 2010 07:44 DaVincii wrote: I can only speak for myself and the people I know and from that standpoint i have to say that demuslim is absolutely loved here in germany. Not only for his play but also for the fun guy he seems to be. I'm definitely chearing for him and so are others, so please dont make such dumb generalizsations.
quoted for emphasis
Btw, just realized how much needles off topic drama is going on in this thread again.
Actually there is not much to discuss here. A player repeatedly violated the rules he agreed to when he signed up for a league -> he got kicked from that league -> The End.
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote: 3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
This is such a bullshit, the _german_ EPS is not an international league, it is, as the name says, a german league, if someone moves to germany in order to participate, he gets the exactly same treatment as everyone else. none of the foreigners was treated any worse by admins than the german players. what you want is that the foreigners get favored by the admins, you expect them to invest alot of time into translating the rules and explaining it to them personally, but this is completely unreasonable, as all the germans have to find and read the rules themselves aswell. it might sound harsh, but its not the admins fault that they dont speak german.
now about the community: most people, as someone else already said, really like demuslim, and from what i have read, quite many also like cloud. especially cloud shows a mature and respectful behaviour, even if he isnt playing up to his potential in the EPS, people still like him more than naniwa.
i personally like cloud much better than demuslim, whereas i find naniwas behaviour just terrible, even though he can be a nice guy from time to time.
the main reason most of the german community doesnt like naniwa is because of how he acts, not because he cannot speak german.
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote: 3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
I dont know where you are getting this from. You are making assumptions and generalizations which i find wrong in so many ways i cannot even tell.
In this thread alone you'll find several germans and therefor vocal parts of the german community questioning the esl's decision considering the demuslim miou game. Also look at all the events Take put together with demuslim being at his home and stuff. I've never heard someone talking down on demuslim or something like that. on the contrary i would much rather call all the stuff Take did a very warm welcome. I can only speak for myself and the people I know and from that standpoint i have to say that demuslim is absolutely loved here in germany. Not only for his play but also for the fun guy he seems to be. I'm definitely chearing for him and so are others, so please dont make such dumb generalizsations.
naniwa is a whole other story, but i feel that even he has beem treated with respect by the community and by the other players up until now. Other than that you cant really blame anyone for not cheering for him after all the attitude he has shown. Nevertheless this has nothing to do with some sort of german xenophobia or something like that
Where i got this from? Irc, other forums etc. pp
Here just for you i searched some Links from the EPS quali cup where cloud and naniwa played:
really i dont have to paste 10 more links, because this should be enough for proving my words
There is a BUTTLOAD of more evidence about the manner of the german community towards the foreigners. I dont have to paste everything down because those IRC Chats would fill a whole thread+comments... I dont come to any conclusions which say that germans or so are xenophobic ( it would be somekind of stupid because im a german as well), im just stating that this looks just sad, despite of the country's history and image.
edit i dont want to generalise german community, as there are a lot of people who supported the 3 foreigners, still there are many who acted really childish and stupidly.
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote: 3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
I dont know where you are getting this from. You are making assumptions and generalizations which i find wrong in so many ways i cannot even tell.
In this thread alone you'll find several germans and therefor vocal parts of the german community questioning the esl's decision considering the demuslim miou game. Also look at all the events Take put together with demuslim being at his home and stuff. I've never heard someone talking down on demuslim or something like that. on the contrary i would much rather call all the stuff Take did a very warm welcome. I can only speak for myself and the people I know and from that standpoint i have to say that demuslim is absolutely loved here in germany. Not only for his play but also for the fun guy he seems to be. I'm definitely chearing for him and so are others, so please dont make such dumb generalizsations.
naniwa is a whole other story, but i feel that even he has beem treated with respect by the community and by the other players up until now. Other than that you cant really blame anyone for not cheering for him after all the attitude he has shown. Nevertheless this has nothing to do with some sort of german xenophobia or something like that
Where i got this from? Irc, other forums etc. pp
Here just for you i searched some Links from the EPS quali cup where cloud and naniwa played:
really i dont have to paste 10 more links, because this should be enough for proving my words
There is a BUTTLOAD of more evidence about the manner of the german community towards the foreigners. I dont have to paste everything down because those IRC Chats would fill a whole thread+comments... I dont come to any conclusions which say that germans or so are xenophobic ( it would be somekind of stupid because im a german as well), im just stating that this looks just sad, despite of the country's history and image.
I don't know if you "actually" speak german but the "Germany" behind your name is suggesting it at least...but the comments are quite diverse. Some people bashing on him for moving to Germany and others defending him. I Can't believe you try to paint the whole german community one color if the links YOU provide CLEARLY show how divers opinions are on this matter!
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote:It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
Demuslim is one of the most favored players in the EPS. And what is the reason for that? Because he is an awesome likable guy. Cloud has some fans too. If he doesn't get a "warm welcome" why is he saying that he loves Germany so much and likes it even more than his homecountry. He said it in a lot of interviews! And Naniwa? Well, make a poll here who likes him and you'll find out that's not a german thing!
Can't believe you give such a wrong impression of the germany community just because there are some idiots. Of course there was a controversy at the beginning. It was kind of new that foreigners move to Germany and play the german EPS. But now almost everybody is happy to have those guys here. They put the EPS on another level!
Another example: After Demuslim casted one event together with Take the german community went crazy about this lovely guy and wanted to see more casts with him in the future. Even though it means the casts will be english!
demuslim is talking so much crap lmao.. i played Call of Duty EPS.. if u want to play at another day u simply write it into the forums... voila no pps.. pls dont talk like u dont know about those rules and dont blame admins if naniwa just was too lazy to play.. u cant reach 26 PPS that easily. also remember, its a GERMAN league, either u learn german or u ask someone if u need help.. miou offered his help to naniwa and no u dont get an "extra wurst"(special treatment) because u moved to germany for playing in the EPS
On October 28 2010 08:57 schisch wrote: demuslim is talking so much crap lmao.. i played Call of Duty EPS.. if u want to play at another day u simply write it into the forums... voila no pps.. pls dont talk like u dont know about those rules and dont blame admins for being lazy.. nothing else is or was naniwa u cant reach 26 PPS that easily. also remember, its a GERMAN league, either u learn german or u ask someone if u need help.. miou offered his help to naniwa..
On October 28 2010 07:17 W.O.L.F.Y. wrote: 3. It's really sad how the foreigners have had such a cold welcome to the EPS. The german community never cheers for any of them, basically they are not welcome as much as the good german player. I can imagine, that this is REALLY frustrating. For instance Miou, a well known wc3 "champion" in germany, got backed up from all sites of the community after he wanted the def win vs Demuslim. Not because it looked like miou had a great advantage in the game, but for the fact that he was MIOU, the german champion (i dont wont to be disrespectful to miou, i respect him very much for his accomplishments). You know, when Teamliquid goes to korea, they get a warm welcome, get help and such. When Naniwa and cloud went to germany they got ignored and people even flamed them in the beginning. When demuslim decided to move to germany people werent that angry (because he announced that like 4 months pre date), but after a while now i have the feeling that gets ignored more and more. And when other players of the eps and the german community talk about demuslim, they talk about him like he is dschingis khan or so and tries to invade countrys and steal something. They are full of fear and jelousy somehow. I mean rivalry is a good thing but sometimes (like in this case) its getting too way over the line...
I dont know where you are getting this from. You are making assumptions and generalizations which i find wrong in so many ways i cannot even tell.
In this thread alone you'll find several germans and therefor vocal parts of the german community questioning the esl's decision considering the demuslim miou game. Also look at all the events Take put together with demuslim being at his home and stuff. I've never heard someone talking down on demuslim or something like that. on the contrary i would much rather call all the stuff Take did a very warm welcome. I can only speak for myself and the people I know and from that standpoint i have to say that demuslim is absolutely loved here in germany. Not only for his play but also for the fun guy he seems to be. I'm definitely chearing for him and so are others, so please dont make such dumb generalizsations.
naniwa is a whole other story, but i feel that even he has beem treated with respect by the community and by the other players up until now. Other than that you cant really blame anyone for not cheering for him after all the attitude he has shown. Nevertheless this has nothing to do with some sort of german xenophobia or something like that
Where i got this from? Irc, other forums etc. pp
Here just for you i searched some Links from the EPS quali cup where cloud and naniwa played:
really i dont have to paste 10 more links, because this should be enough for proving my words
There is a BUTTLOAD of more evidence about the manner of the german community towards the foreigners. I dont have to paste everything down because those IRC Chats would fill a whole thread+comments... I dont come to any conclusions which say that germans or so are xenophobic ( it would be somekind of stupid because im a german as well), im just stating that this looks just sad, despite of the country's history and image.
edit i dont want to generalise german community, as there are a lot of people who supported the 3 foreigners, still there are many who acted really childish and stupidly.
Seriously, there are so many idiots posting their shit on the esl page it isn't even funny. Whether there are foreigners playing or not. You got these stupid comments everytime... Many of them cant even write properly... If it's abot a counterstrike match, a wc3 match, a starcraft match; it doesn't matter at all! The level of behaviour is often very low.
BUT fortunately that doesn't reflect the german community in general (as you said already). There are so many scene sites on which behaviour is much better. Of course there are many comments on the esl page which aren't stupid but i found that there are the most insulting and the most stupid comments. I'd rather say it's another esl failure to not delete scum like that! They should use some mods who take care of whats going on...
Naniwa is just a douchebag from what i've heard. No wonder that he isn't popular. About Demuslim i have to say that he's really a nice guy. Along with hasu0bs he's my favourite to win the tournament just because these are very polite and mannered players. I really dont know what the complaints about him aim to achieve
And i think i'm not the only one who thinks like that. Miou should've got him that rematch but i think he wanted the win as he was the underdog! Just my oppinion.
To sum it up: It's good that the esl is strict but they're doing mistakes here and there especially not removing those stupid comments. Every other good scene site has its rules too and they take care that the level of behaviour doesn't fall too much
wow you have to be a real moron to get kicked out a tourny requiring 30pts of pentalties, with 1pt per minor and 10 per major... majors being not uploading replays/showing up to matches?..(unsure of exact rule designations)...
Probably EPS rules are a bit too strict but they really want to keep everything as professional as possible. I'm sad Naniwa got kicked but if he paid more attention to his pps and situation this wouldn't have happened.
On October 27 2010 22:43 attackfighter wrote: that system seems really unprofessional, 75% of the players have penatly points
I think it's a way for them to just save some money instead of to enforce good rules. although I've never been a fan of these tiny 'impromptu' tournament things anyways. rather have more proffesional ones like GSL, I don't even see how this "EPS" thing is even alive.
User was warned for this post
they dont save money. the money not given to the player who got too many PPs is spread amongst the other finalists.
the rules seem to be kinda strict, but for a tournament of that scale you can't just have some random wishy-washy rules...
and eventhough it seems they encountered problems both DeMusliM and ClouD managed to stay at 5minor PPs (that's less than some of the German players) whereas naniwa went way over board with 25minor and 1 major PP
hell.. cloud even lives together with him, doesn't he?
anyway, he might not be the most pleasant person to deal with but the he sure was one of the strongest players in the EPS... and third parties like hasu got kinda screwed by that too as we see
On October 28 2010 16:59 zTz wrote: wow you have to be a real moron to get kicked out a tourny requiring 30pts of pentalties, with 1pt per minor and 10 per major... majors being not uploading replays/showing up to matches?..(unsure of exact rule designations)...
not uploading a replay seems to give 9minor pps from what i can tell by looking at naniwas ESL profile.
the major one was awarded for not showing to a match at all it seems
On October 28 2010 02:59 Seide wrote: These kind of thoughts is exactly why "BW has always been the red-headed step-child compared to the FPS games in the ESL". You are part of the problem, show soem support for your scene if you want it to grow.
Why would I? I must be drunk and mad to support a system that is obviously flawed to the bone. It's safe to say I have done my fair bit for my local community, helping and organising in both online and offline events and -when I had more time- being admin in a big German team league, see next quote on that. Just look at the games played, it is not the 1v1/2v2 ESL, but those leagues that are flourishing in our region again, the old-dignified sk.de and the successor to the bwcl, the sc2cl. They may not be professional oriented (well maybe the top division of sc2cl), but that is what the local community wants. For the high-profile players, there will be a replacement, eventually. I.e. 4players.de is already pushing out 1.100€ in prize money per week. EPS players are earning money there already, including the one I will quote next:
On October 28 2010 08:05 DarKFoRcE wrote: This is such a bullshit, the _german_ EPS is not an international league, it is, as the name says, a german league, if someone moves to germany in order to participate, he gets the exactly same treatment as everyone else. none of the foreigners was treated any worse by admins than the german players. what you want is that the foreigners get favored by the admins, you expect them to invest alot of time into translating the rules and explaining it to them personally, but this is completely unreasonable, as all the germans have to find and read the rules themselves aswell. it might sound harsh, but its not the admins fault that they dont speak german.
As I already mentioned, I've been admin in a different league some time ago. But I had what the ESL lacks: Passion. Passion for the game, for the competition, for the players, for the -thing-. When problems arose, I better made damn sure I fixed it. Because I wanted the thing to work, and work well. International players? Hell, that's just one of the things I was there for. Approaching players, asking what is wrong and -fixing- things, and, mind you, there is always a way to fix things. Expecting the admins to invest time into translating is not "completely unreasonable", it is the way it is supposed to be. If I need to be the nanny for a player or a whole team, then I am the nanny. If I was capable of that, then why not the ESL, which even pays their admins? A football referee wouldn't be a football referee if he had no interest in football, and with an SC2 admin not having interest in SC2 but only in their payment, the ESL seems to fall into a daily routine, having a thick rulebook that they hope will cover for them, lacking interest in the actual thing, which simply makes them unqualified for a professional gaming league. No, I don't know it, but I assume the admins are getting paid, and paid well. Why? Because the ESL entitles and promotes itself as the highest-standard and biggest online league there is, and it belongs to Turtle Entertainment GmbH, which is a frikkin multimillion € company. If the admins are getting paid, then they might not be doing their job. If I am mistaken and they are not getting paid, then, additionally, they are downright stupid, which makes the ESL look even more unqualified. I am sorry that this sounds very rude, but there is no way to skirt around this for me now, some things just have to be said.
On October 28 2010 18:12 FliedLice wrote: not uploading a replay seems to give 9minor pps from what i can tell by looking at naniwas ESL profile.
the major one was awarded for not showing to a match at all it seems
not uploading a replay gives 3 penalty points each... which is quite funny. If you win 2:0 and don't upload the replays you get 6 pps if you win 2:1 you get 9 pps. Rules also state that both players get the penalty points if no replays are uploaded after 6 hours (which didn't happen, just Naniwa got them).
Strangely enough you only get 1 penalty point per missing replay in the Dawn of War EPS. Maybe its because you have to zip the replays there and they account for the higher effort players have to do with uploading, I can see no other reason to punish the same mistake differently just because the game has a different name.
Well I don`t think ESL is the one to blame when even the other foreigners are doing fine with penalty points. Cloud who shares the same flat with Nani has like 5pp. If I´m not totally mistaken, Cloud already urged Naniwa to be more attentive with writing match statements etc. but he simply refused to listen. And even apart from those aspects Naniwa surely wasn`t the most pleasant person as he used to insult many players in his statements, made lame excuses in games and so forth. What surprises me though is the inactivity of the mym management. They should have be more cautious about the whole situation. Surprisingly they even avoided to release a statement on the whole issue which raises some question about the organisation in general. I mean when they hired Naniwa they were obviously aware of his past (a few weeks before joining mym he was forced out of mTw due to manner issues and he was famous for the same thing in wc3).So if they still had faith in him they should know that they`d need to take care of him. 2 months ago there was also the incident with Sunny the former team manager and CellaWerra and the lineup also seems quite "outdated".
On October 28 2010 18:12 FliedLice wrote: not uploading a replay seems to give 9minor pps from what i can tell by looking at naniwas ESL profile.
the major one was awarded for not showing to a match at all it seems
not uploading a replay gives 3 penalty points each... which is quite funny. If you win 2:0 and don't upload the replays you get 6 pps if you win 2:1 you get 9 pps. Rules also state that both players get the penalty points if no replays are uploaded after 6 hours (which didn't happen, just Naniwa got them).
Strangely enough you only get 1 penalty point per missing replay in the Dawn of War EPS. Maybe its because you have to zip the replays there and they account for the higher effort players have to do with uploading, I can see no other reason to punish the same mistake differently just because the game has a different name.
This is particularly interesting if it is true. Different players get different treatments ? As much as I dislike Naniwa's BM (too much is too much), getting banned over replays not uploaded is sad.
On October 28 2010 19:59 Zog wrote: This is particularly interesting if it is true. Different players get different treatments ? As much as I dislike Naniwa's BM (too much is too much), getting banned over replays not uploaded is sad.
If a player drops out all the wildcards and penalty points earned/lost by other players in matches against him will be reset. That's why OgerTob's penalty points for the missing replays were removed again.
Ah good to see that there is an explanation. Its a weird rule though because if someone else drops out now, which happened to be an opponent of Naniwa in a game where he got some penalty points, they would have to be removed as well - meaning he has less than 30 points again in some circumstances. I mean you can have a rule which says once you are out, you are out but the point is that others players mistakes can mean nullifying your own mistakes, which makes no sense.
I mean why should things happening in the present/future affect past things like that. The whole point of penalty points as I understand is, is to enforce players to behave professionally and according to the rules... just because Naniwa did something wrong, suddenly OgerTob didn't do anything wrong anymore?
ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
On October 28 2010 20:32 TBO wrote: I mean why should things happening in the present/future affect past things like that. The whole point of penalty points as I understand is, is to enforce players to behave professionally and according to the rules... just because Naniwa did something wrong, suddenly OgerTob didn't do anything wrong anymore?
I agree and I won't say that our ruleset is flawless. We will be discussing some of the penalty-rules for the next season, that's for sure.
On October 28 2010 20:42 OutlaW- wrote: Why all the hate? Next time you move from your country to go to a tournament and you get banned for stupid rules, we're gonna laugh as well.
Agreed. Though most of the haters will never have the talent to go anywhere to do what they are good at.
I feel bad for Nani. Go to a foreign country to compete, get banned over something silly, and then have people laughing at you. Well, good luck next time Nani.
On October 28 2010 20:42 OutlaW- wrote: Why all the hate? Next time you move from your country to go to a tournament and you get banned for stupid rules, we're gonna laugh as well.
Agreed. Though most of the haters will never have the talent to go anywhere to do what they are good at.
I feel bad for Nani. Go to a foreign country to compete, get banned over something silly, and then have people laughing at you. Well, good luck next time Nani.
he clearly had it coming, it's not like you rack those PPs up in a single of a day :/
On October 28 2010 20:42 OutlaW- wrote: Why all the hate? Next time you move from your country to go to a tournament and you get banned for stupid rules, we're gonna laugh as well.
Agreed. Though most of the haters will never have the talent to go anywhere to do what they are good at.
I feel bad for Nani. Go to a foreign country to compete, get banned over something silly, and then have people laughing at you. Well, good luck next time Nani.
It's not something silly.
It's silly that he didnt do it. Replay uploading? Takes what? Not even 5mins? Writing a gamestatement? Also like what? 5mins? Just write 4-5 sentences and you're good. And it doesnt even have to be ultra creative....
Not showing up (without mentioning it in time) - well, try doing that at your job or any other tournament. Wonder how long that would be tolerated before you have to face consequences. Think it through from the ESL point of view: "Hey sponsor we will have a match at xth of <month>. Wanna sponsor something, while we show some adds for you?" And than no match is being played? What should they tell their sponsors - it'd be unprofessional from them not to penalize the players. This isnt a happy tournament of friends.
On October 28 2010 20:32 TBO wrote: Ah good to see that there is an explanation. Its a weird rule though because if someone else drops out now, which happened to be an opponent of Naniwa in a game where he got some penalty points, they would have to be removed as well - meaning he has less than 30 points again in some circumstances.
with 3 players, this could create a vicious circle going on eternally. ^^
but i like to hear this bad-mannered guy got kicked out of eps. he just has such a bad and annoying attitude, serves him right.
On October 28 2010 20:33 sleepingdog wrote: ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
Why EPS didn't make a rule state that german citizen only? Clearly that they don't want any foreigner in their league.
I find it hard to believe how many people actually defend Naniwa. Even though Demuslim has his points regarding the league's rules, and even if the league's admins may have been a bit more diplomatic - there's a huge pile of evidence that's it's apparently very hard to collect that many PP in such a short span of time.
And it's been proven multiple times that Naniwa's behaviour is cocky, arrogant, disrespectful and sometimes even outright insulting as well. Watch his games, read his EPS comments, read all the little anecdotes and stories about him.
It's always good if rude players get banned / punished / shown their limits. Especially if it's a popular player who's in the spotlight.
On October 28 2010 20:33 sleepingdog wrote: ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
Why EPS didn't make a rule state that german citizen only? Clearly that they don't want any foreigner in their league.
why should they?
as long as they can get accustomed to the rules (as demuslim and cloud seem to be able to do) they can play in the EPS
from what i can tell the "public" responses to having players from abroad playing in the german EPS were pretty positive
On October 28 2010 20:33 sleepingdog wrote: ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
Why EPS didn't make a rule state that german citizen only? Clearly that they don't want any foreigner in their league.
why should they?
as long as they can get accustomed to the rules (as demuslim and cloud seem to be able to do) they can play in the EPS
from what i can tell the "public" responses to having players from abroad playing in the german EPS were pretty positive
vouch. and about everyone under the age of 30 speaks decent english in germany, so its not like it was any hard to get the rules translated by any friends.
german and english are not that different anyway. learning german for an english native speaker or vice versa is not half as hard as learning an eastern asian language as a westerner.
Seriously, ESL rules are a bit petty but where the hell is that hate for germans suddenly comin from?
Foreigners get treated just the same way germans get treated in the EPS. Why do you think that this is some sort of anti-foreigner ruleset? Why should anyone get preferential treatment in a professional league?
If you participate in a league u better know the rules beforehand. Everybody here can speak english. Ask anyone nicely and he will explain things to you. Most EPS-players are well mannered and friendly.
But that isn't even the issue anyways. Naniwa didnt get kicked because he didn't know the rules. He got kicked because he was too lazy and has huge attitude problems. Not showing up without any notice to a game because you are "too tired" two days after a lan... When have you heard something like that in any paid sports? Cloud is in the same boat (and even the same house) and he seems to do fine.
Also Demuslim's venting in this thread has mostly nothing to do with ESL or germans in general or german leagues anyways. The defwin rule is the only sensible rule there is for such an incident. You could say Miou was badmannered or unsportsmanlike but there is no way ESL can rule a regame in such a situation because its an invitation for abuse in the future if they do so.
The only thing you could blame on ESL is the Blizzcon thing. But even there I think Demuslim could've worked out things with the ESL in a diplomatic way.
On October 28 2010 00:52 frequency wrote: Nani is one of the funniest people I've ever spoken to on vent. You all take him too seriously sometimes.
May be a mistake posting before reading the whole thread, but I have to say something here: What the hell is it with this excuse for general douchebaggery?
Let me tell you a story: I spent seven years playing a text-based MUD called Aetolia. Believe it or not, this MUD, with its less-than-a-thousand-player-strong base, had one of the most hardcore, complex pvp combat systems you will ever see. And that sort of system draws hyper competitive players. You think those dudes from Counterstrike are aggressive? You haven't seen ANYTHING until you've played an IRE game. And jeeeeesus these guys could be assholes. And not just in the normal IdrA fashion either. I mean they could just get plain sick. They'd follow you around on forums and shit all over you AFTER they steamrolled you in the arena. And for whatever reason, these guys had a good number of fans and friends, with the primary excuse for their absolute shit behavior being "Oh man, this guy is FUNNY THOUGH, you take him too seriously EL OH EL."
No. The problem is a lot of people don't take this kind of horseshit seriously enough. Did you ever think that being an asshole may be a CHARACTER FLAW and not something to wear on your shirt? The fact that NaNiwa was an internationally recognized professional player just makes matters worse. Good riddance.
I don't really know how some people can say german EPS is being racist, they are giving all the PPs they can to pretty much everyone, german players and us three foreigners. To be honest I haven't had problems at all with anyone of the admin crew, they are trying to be as professional as they can, it's just the rules that are a bit too strict and unforgiving in my opinion.
Why are people arguing about this? The simple fact is that the rules were clearly stated up front regardless of whether or not some of you think they are 'stupid'. He CHOSE to move there and play for them contigent on him following those rules. He DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES. Therefore there were consequences.
It doesn't matter whether or not he is/was BM. He did not follow SIMPLE workplace rules and got kicked out because of it.
On October 28 2010 00:52 frequency wrote: Nani is one of the funniest people I've ever spoken to on vent. You all take him too seriously sometimes.
May be a mistake posting before reading the whole thread, but I have to say something here: What the hell is it with this excuse for general douchebaggery?
Let me tell you a story: I spent seven years playing a text-based MUD called Aetolia. Believe it or not, this MUD, with its less-than-a-thousand-player-strong base, had one of the most hardcore, complex pvp combat systems you will ever see. And that sort of system draws hyper competitive players. You think those dudes from Counterstrike are aggressive? You haven't seen ANYTHING until you've played an IRE game. And jeeeeesus these guys could be assholes. And not just in the normal IdrA fashion either. I mean they could just get plain sick. They'd follow you around on forums and shit all over you AFTER they steamrolled you in the arena. And for whatever reason, these guys had a good number of fans and friends, with the primary excuse for their absolute shit behavior being "Oh man, this guy is FUNNY THOUGH, you take him too seriously EL OH EL."
No. The problem is a lot of people don't take this kind of horseshit seriously enough. Did you ever think that being an asshole may be a CHARACTER FLAW and not something to wear on your shirt? The fact that NaNiwa was an internationally recognized professional player just makes matters worse. Good riddance.
i absolutely agree with you.
furthermore he accumulated x points and got banned out of german EPS. whats the deal? there are rules - follow them! if not, don't play in the EPS or try to change the rules before u sign them. if you drive too fast.. one time - ok. if you drive too fast, like 15 times - you got banned out of traffic. and here's a nice example of nani's manner for those who didn't read the beginning of the thread:
NaNiwa is mass bad manner anyways, didnt he drop out of school to play wc3? get ostracized for being a douche bag, and it still seems like he hasnt found a decent job, or helped society at all since he left the wc3 scene. He is the type of face that is bad for esports, im happy he is out of the most important tournament in foreign sc2.
Sad that he moved to Germany and got kicked for silly rules?
More like sad that he moved there to compete just to not take it seriously. And sad fail to comply to rules and fail to complete a simple task such as uploading replays upon completing a match.
On October 27 2010 22:35 turbopasca1 wrote: no wonder he is so bad educated , cant forget one of those zotac matches where i had to wait to play with him for 1 hour and talking to me like i owe him. And after i lost him (im not a pro and etc.) , he said "GG, wasted 10 minutes of my life on you" WOW , just WOW.
hahaha naniwa is more awesome than idra imo :D
How can he be awesome. Thats incredibly rude.
Because watching people writing copypaste-like waste of keystrokes-stuff is dull and boring, and watching people going 100% absolutely batshit crazy-berserk is fun and awesome? Either cuz they're trolling halfheartedly (and fishing for easy prey that will take the bait) or because they're just like that. Both have potential to be hilarious by themselves or in a greater context.
Isnt there like a "Idra And Friends: Greatest SC-Rabble Of All Time" thread or website made specifically for this purpose? Such a thing could in time attract more people than Facebook. Alternative promotion for the E-Sports scene.
On October 28 2010 20:33 sleepingdog wrote: ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
Why EPS didn't make a rule state that german citizen only? Clearly that they don't want any foreigner in their league.
I don't think that the ESL intended the EPS Germany to be a league you go abroad for. I believe they have no German citizenship rule because they do not want to exclude any players (mostly children) that grow up in Germany and speak German but have no German citizenship (yet). That would be pretty stupid as players should not be restrained to follow their hobby because of their nationality. So it makes sense that they require you to live in Germany rather than require you to have a German citizenship.
On October 29 2010 00:05 oxxo wrote: Why are people arguing about this?
Its the internet man...but also there about 5-6 issues being argued about now, half the people replying dont know which one the guy their replying to is talking about. Basically the thread is in about the same state as SanZenith's build vs. Check on Delta Quadrant about 5 minutes in.
30 PP is a whole lot to accumulate so it's not like Naniwa didn't have ample warning to get his behaviour together. The rules are fair as well, to ensure the fans have the games to watch and some statements from the players. If you want to just play on ladder and have no-one bother you then do that, don't join a pro gaming league. It's simple.
On October 29 2010 08:37 FliedLice wrote: so cloud's alone now?
Yes, and in a certain way that's the most ridiculous (or just sad) fact: Cloud obviously had no problem sticking to the rules, he's got just 5 minor penalty points right now. Cloud and Naniwa were MYM team mates and lived together, but just one of them was able to follow simple rules?
There's no argument to put the blame on german EPS. Other foreigners like cloud or demuslim (and the rest of the players anyway) do just fine and some minor penalty points don't matter at all. That was just a gigantic fail.
On October 28 2010 23:54 SonicTitan wrote: You think those dudes from Counterstrike are aggressive? You haven't seen ANYTHING until you've played an IRE game. And jeeeeesus these guys could be assholes. And not just in the normal IdrA fashion either. I mean they could just get plain sick. They'd follow you around on forums and shit all over you AFTER they steamrolled you in the arena. And for whatever reason, these guys had a good number of fans and friends, with the primary excuse for their absolute shit behavior being "Oh man, this guy is FUNNY THOUGH, you take him too seriously EL OH EL."
Try HoN or Dota, tho most of the competitive assholes moved to HoN leaving Dota to koreans :-O
Some even e-mailed me (!) with flames after getting locked on the forums lol
On October 28 2010 18:25 zere wrote: No, I don't know it, but I assume the admins are getting paid, and paid well.
Wait,what, paid? Ahahahahahahajahahahahahah... Maybe a few core admins, yeah, who work full time. 99% of the admins for the 5747289229 leagues the esl runs are doing it out of passion only, mind you. Seriously.....
On October 27 2010 22 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 27 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:14 Mereel wrote: he sucks anyway.....2base collosi every game
sounds like any protoss who rolls me :p
this is absolutely hilarious but i think eps system is kinda crappy with all match statements and so on, they dont even have admins to help around whenever i need help so i gotten some warnings aswell even when im trying my best to follow their rules :/
i pulled myself from EAS for the same reason, Terrible terrible system with close to no help from admins, i think it took them 4 weeks to reply to my Support tickets
Who wants to play on a professional level and earn money by doing so, consequently needs to act professionally. Compare this to a job in another business and the respective disqualification becomes fully comprehensible.
I think a team can actually benefit from having a "bad boy" on the team. There are always people who love him for that behavior and he takes the heat of the other players so they can prepare themselves in peace.
However if his behaviour is starting to hurt the reputation of the sponsor you have to do something. Talk with the player first and if that isn't resulting in anything you have to take other actions where removing him is the last option if you see no other resolution.
I'm guessing talks between MYM management and Naniwa didn't bring the disired solution to their problems and the reasons given to Naniwa were grave misconduct and refusal to work (the not showing up for his match). Any other reason would (as far as I know) result in a contract breach from MYM (assuming the contracts in teams like this resemble those in normal businesses) for which Naniwa can sue or in MYM having to pay of the remaining contrect of Naniwa.
On October 28 2010 20:33 sleepingdog wrote: ok, I just want to comment on the whole "german doesn't like foreigners"-issue
as darkforce has completely correctly stated, the EPS is NOT an international thing; you can argue if it would be good if EPS would "advance", open itself to be more international, etc....but all of this has basicly nothing to do with all of the aforementioned arguments
if foreigners move to germany to participate in EPS...why on earth should esl-admins be responsible for "translating" all the necessary stuff? is it so much to ask if these foreingers ask...well...friends that actually speak german to help them? I think you here at TL should give esl-admins a break on this one; if I move to the united states to participate in an US league, why the hell should I expect that US ppl tell me in german how to organize my own stuff? yeah, yeah, it's the old "everybody must be able to talk english", but here it's something different because EPS never was INTENDED to be an international league; therefore nobody has the "right" to demand guidance from esl-admins if he has problems due to the language-barrier; even if esl-admins would refuse any help at all on this one (which I'm sure isn't the case)....there are really no ground to blame them for this; tbh they have enough work to do as it is
furthermore, if somebody intentionally decides to participate in this (german) league, and actually moves to germany just because of it, you could expect from him to organize his stuff properly; therefore to all those of you who argue that esl is overly complicated with many important stuff being available just in german....well.....yeah, doesn't this kinda makes sense in a german league?
also complaining about german fans not rooting for foreingers; seriously? what's wrong with that all of a sudden? it's the same with every "real"sports, you cheer for your team even if they suck terribad....cmon now
Why EPS didn't make a rule state that german citizen only? Clearly that they don't want any foreigner in their league.
wow this is just... I don't even know what to say.
The ESL is fine with foreigners attending the german EPS. The only thing they require foreigners (and germans alike) to do is to get their shit together. You cannot expect the ESL to translate everything for the GERMAN EPS because a foreigner wants to participate. It's really not that hard anyway. Cloud obviously had no problems understanding the rules. Also, naniwa most likely had people at MYM that could've helped him. This is anything but the ESL's fault.
Sure, their system of penalty points is weird and probably a little too strict, but the players participating in the EPS are supposed to be professionals and act accordingly. You don't want to know what professionals in real sports have to go through.
It is sad that a player as skilled as naniwa has been kicked out of the league, but it was totally deserved.
On October 29 2010 18:21 Mandalor wrote: Afaik Naniwa was living with naruto who is a native speaker of german and I think his english is quite good as well. Also, he most likely had people at MYM that could've helped him. This is anything but the ESL's fault..
DeMusliM is the one living at narutos place (they're both mtw players)
naniwa lived/lives together with cloud (since they are/were on MYMs sc2 team)... but even cloud managed to stay at 5minor pps
He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
Can't say that I'm surprised by any of this, the way he conducted himself in the teamliquid IRC back in the beta was really despicable, and I guess he hasn't changed since. He's an oaf with no class or respect for anyone, and a false sense of entitlement. Good to see it caught up with him.
maybe you should go to TaKe's place to have some good time.
are you friends with them?
TaKe was nice enough to ask me, but the train is expensive and the trip is long, so I didn't feel like going. I'll be watching the stream though, it's gonna be awesome as usual
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
That sucks man
Sadly, as you get older you come to realise some people just haven't been brought up right, and there's nothing you can do or say to change them.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
Even though this is just another example of Naniwa's character - leaving w/o comment instead of talking things through with his roommate - it certainly is sad for you. I hope you manage and find some other people to bond with.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
i'm feeling bad for u cloud.. not the way it was supposed to end. curious though if he shows up to the german-sweden clanwar..
btw: wouldn't mym/esl sponsor the trip to take for u, cloud? :D
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
this is messed up
are you suprised? He's probably pissed from getting kicked out and also remember he's got quite a temper, yeah? ^^
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
this is messed up
are you suprised? He's probably pissed from getting kicked out and also remember he's got quite a temper, yeah? ^^
Well showing his anger by just leaving his roommate without saying goodbye or cleaning up after himself is major douchery.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
Don't condone such actions but I can understand it in some way. I'd probably be mad pissed and have a lot of FUCK IT WHATEVER moments but considering my personality I would still clean/say goodbye. Situations like this and how people handle it says a lot about their personality and their true colors.
Tho I wish Nani the best of luck in the future and hope he learned something from this experience, still a fan of his play.
On October 29 2010 20:53 Jibba wrote: There's a difference between being a dick online and doing it to a real life friend. This is a pretty unfortunate situation.
i totally agree
i know so many people who are so fucking nice online ... then i met them in RL fuckin a.......
imo naniwa ist jsut bm and not professional. i feel really sorry for cloud
On October 29 2010 20:53 Jibba wrote: There's a difference between being a dick online and doing it to a real life friend. This is a pretty unfortunate situation.
i totally agree
i know so many people who are so fucking nice online ... then i met them in RL fuckin a.......
imo naniwa ist jsut bm and not professional. i feel really sorry for cloud
normally it's the other way around... people act all toughguy online and when you meet them face face their totally different perons :D
While its a shitty move to just leave and not look back or even say goodbye I dont think one should hold it against him.
First he is thrown out of ESL then he is kicked off his team, and to top it all off the majority of the SC2 community has made it clear that they dont like him. When shit like that happens you just want to get away with no time for goodbyes. His friends must understand this, clean for him and wait for things to cool off.
While Naniwa is not by any means innocent and really had it comming his friends gotta stand up for him even if he shows no grattitude.
I personally dont like Naniwa at all but I think its time for a helping hand rather then kicking him when he is down.
not suprising at all, regarding his clan history. Got kicked from teams multiple times due to bm, lack of team spirit or professionality in warcraft 3, i at least recall 2 times mTw and one serious, and back then read about few more incidents. And when you acknowledge his behaviour in broadcasted games when he lost (sometimes even when he won), it seems that he's not improving his attitude. this situation just rounds up the picture. sad that this kind of people (not nani in particular, same problem with other players in pro-leagues all over the different games) deny motivated players to participate in eps or equivalent.
btw, i can't understand how people even think of blaming a successive and experienced esports organization hosting a league for professionals where you can win money in a video game (how much of you get paid for playing football/basketball/whatever sundays on amateur level?) for the fact that half of the players participating heap penalty points because of not obeying simple rules...
On October 29 2010 21:56 Chibalicious wrote: While its a shitty move to just leave and not look back or even say goodbye I dont think one should hold it against him.
First he is thrown out of ESL then he is kicked off his team, and to top it all off the majority of the SC2 community has made it clear that they dont like him. When shit like that happens you just want to get away with no time for goodbyes. His friends must understand this, clean for him and wait for things to cool off.
While Naniwa is not by any means innocent and really had it comming his friends gotta stand up for him even if he shows no grattitude.
I personally dont like Naniwa at all but I think its time for a helping hand rather then kicking him when he is down.
I'd have to fully agree with you, but at the same time - he's a complete tool. All of his problems he has at the moment are a DIRECT repercussion of his own actions and has no one to blame but himself.
He made a LOT of wrong choices and now he is paying for them, maybe he'll see how much of an immature dick he has been all this time and finally grow up a bit.
Its obvious its in his blood to be a douche. I know people IRL who are acting just like him. Spoilt shits who expects to get everything served on a platter. No sens of reality. Total lack of empathy.
At IEM someone asked Naniwa for a photo/autograph and he said "do your pic and fuck off". I think he is such a strange guy and his kick is well deserved.
Good luck to cloud tho. He might make it to the finals now!
I did not know anything about him before reading this thread. But after going through all 18 pages ... all I can say is 'good riddance.'
Not only is he a dick to other pro gamers, but he also treats his fans like shit?
Christ, the scene doesn't need him.
Good on the organisations for kicking him out. I hope he either disappears from SC2 progaming entirely, or writes a sincere apology and vows to change his ways absolutely - then gets back in the scene.
Its bad for him that he get kicked out of EPS and its a shame that such a good players suffers from his behaviour. I have no respect towards him as person, because he acts like a dick and is full of himself.
As I said its a shame that a good player has no team and is out of a league now, but its all his own fault. He was disrespectful towards GoOdy and lots of other players in his statements and when he got a beating by GoOdy he came up with excuses.
GL in the future, don't blame others for calling you a prick or douchebag, because thats just what you are. As much as you can be NICE if you like someone or in real life (I don't know) but most of the time you are not. Sorry Johan.
I am very excited about joining a team that has such a long history in the scene and is also very known for treating their players well. I hope with my whole heart that this will be my final stop. I will strive to do my best for my fans, in terms of playing well and in terms of being on my best behavior.
On October 29 2010 18:39 iG.ClouD wrote: He just leaved this place without cleaning anything he was supposed to clean or saying goodbye. I don't really know what to think, we even had a nice time together and were friendly to each other.
Naniwa is absolutly childish and I bet he is the only child in his family. The "chapter Naniwa" should be closed.
10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Nah he actually deserves it all. Nice idea though.
well that happening (MYM "releasing" naniwa) wasn't too unexpected. and it was deserved, as just shitting on your sponsor's dedication and investment by being bad-mannered like a kid is very fucked up.
It's quite awkward that their staff apparently doesn't speak english. I wonder why I'm paying taxes... so that these kids squander their time in school and don't learn the lingua franca. I get angry.
On October 30 2010 02:30 drooL wrote: well that happening (MYM "releasing" naniwa) wasn't too unexpected. and it was deserved, as just shitting on your sponsor's dedication and investment by being bad-mannered like a kid is very fucked up.
You obviously have a point, but making it seem like sponsors are doing pro-gamers a favor is misrepresenting things. The amount of time, effort and dedication required to be even considered for any kind of sponsorship is insane. The compensation received is far, far, far, below anything you would consider an acceptable hourly wage. Nani has no ethical obligation to his sponsors when their compensation is so meager. You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
On October 30 2010 03:04 HalfAmazing wrote:You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
This reads like "a certain amount of greed is totally ok, if you are paid for your hobby you shouldn't be thankful because you so damn deserve even more"
On October 29 2010 20:53 Jibba wrote: There's a difference between being a dick online and doing it to a real life friend. This is a pretty unfortunate situation.
There's no difference. If you're a dick, you're a dick.
On October 30 2010 03:04 HalfAmazing wrote:You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
This reads like "a certain amount of greed is totally ok, if you are paid for your hobby you shouldn't be thankful because you so damn deserve even more"
Point is, it's not a hobby. He gets paid to play, and very badly at that.
On October 30 2010 03:04 HalfAmazing wrote:You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
This reads like "a certain amount of greed is totally ok, if you are paid for your hobby you shouldn't be thankful because you so damn deserve even more"
Point is, it's not a hobby. He gets paid to play, and very badly at that.
Of course it's a hobby. just because you get paid for it, it doesn't have to be your job. Is gambling ones job? is getting paid 200€ compensation per month for amateur football ones job? it's your hobby as long as you don't rely your future on it and i don't think naniwa was that naive to rely his future on the earnings of eps.de
On October 30 2010 03:04 HalfAmazing wrote:You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
This reads like "a certain amount of greed is totally ok, if you are paid for your hobby you shouldn't be thankful because you so damn deserve even more"
Point is, it's not a hobby. He gets paid to play, and very badly at that.
Of course it's a hobby. just because you get paid for it, it doesn't have to be your job. Is gambling ones job? is getting paid 200€ compensation per month for amateur football ones job? it's your hobby as long as you don't rely your future on it and i don't think naniwa was that naive to rely his future on the earnings of eps.de
Really bad definition of "hobby".
So, working a job in retail is a "hobby" to you unless you plan your future around it?
Nope, it's a job, just like Naniwa's job was playing SC2 professionally.
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Apparently it's only bad if someone else does it. Even funnier though is that 99% of the people in this thread were never personally insulted by him - still he seems to have managed to make them quite upset! Just ignore him if you don't like him, kids.
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Apparently it's only bad if someone else does it. Even funnier though is that 99% of the people in this thread were never personally insulted by him - still he seems to have managed to make them quite upset! Just ignore him if you don't like him, kids.
its obvious he lived a life alot of people here would like to live and he threw it away, for whatever reason. you must be a fool to think people will understand his behavior and express their misconception by wishing him good luck and feeling sorry for him.
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Apparently it's only bad if someone else does it. Even funnier though is that 99% of the people in this thread were never personally insulted by him - still he seems to have managed to make them quite upset! Just ignore him if you don't like him, kids.
its obvious he lived a life alot of people here would like to live and he threw it away, for whatever reason. you must be a fool to think people will understand his behavior and express their misconception by wishing him good luck and feeling sorry for him.
He can throw it away if he wants to, what business is it of yours? And I never implied that people should understand his behavior or feel sorry for him, etc. Why not simply ignore him?, instead of lowering yourselves to his level by spouting insults.
On October 30 2010 07:22 eksert wrote: Naniwa is the best european toss,not socke not white ra not anybody it's naniwa.. i have full belief in him
You best be joking, bm discussions aside, he's got nothing on socke or whitera, open your eyes man.
The mym decision was predictable after the 30pp and boot from esl, I mean what was to expect from a guy who can't compete in what he's supposed to compete in and paid for.
If you play professionally, you should act professionally. If you don't like the pay, you do something else, but it's not like we have that many sponsors just waiting to jump in and this ruins the chances of other good players.
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Apparently it's only bad if someone else does it. Even funnier though is that 99% of the people in this thread were never personally insulted by him - still he seems to have managed to make them quite upset! Just ignore him if you don't like him, kids.
its obvious he lived a life alot of people here would like to live and he threw it away, for whatever reason. you must be a fool to think people will understand his behavior and express their misconception by wishing him good luck and feeling sorry for him.
He can throw it away if he wants to, what business is it of yours? And I never implied that people should understand his behavior or feel sorry for him, etc. Why not simply ignore him?, instead of lowering yourselves to his level by spouting insults.
i think i´ve explained it good enough so you don´t have to ask me all those question, even tough my english sucks.. also i did not judge naniwa neither am i the spokesman of anyone here. i´ve tried to explain it to you but i think i failed since you still act like a bitch.
On October 30 2010 03:04 HalfAmazing wrote:You want to force a player to drastically change his personality? Give him more than some gaming gear and a couple of bucks a month. Maybe then he'd take this 'sponsorship' seriously.
This reads like "a certain amount of greed is totally ok, if you are paid for your hobby you shouldn't be thankful because you so damn deserve even more"
Point is, it's not a hobby. He gets paid to play, and very badly at that.
Of course it's a hobby. just because you get paid for it, it doesn't have to be your job. Is gambling ones job? is getting paid 200€ compensation per month for amateur football ones job? it's your hobby as long as you don't rely your future on it and i don't think naniwa was that naive to rely his future on the earnings of eps.de
Really bad definition of "hobby".
So, working a job in retail is a "hobby" to you unless you plan your future around it?
Nope, it's a job, just like Naniwa's job was playing SC2 professionally.
I'm sorry if I didn't word this out properly, of course the lack of future plans around something doesn't define it as hobby. But I would, at least at this stage of earnings, consider naniwas stay in germany rather as hobby with financial compensation rather than profession. Which isn't the point at all, let's stop derail: The point, as you pointed out, is, he was supposed to play SC2 professionally. Gathering enough penalty points to get kicked out of a league at half season after an organisation pays your journey doesn't seem to fit the requirements. The requirements in my eyes implements proper attitude, and his obviously didn't suffice.
On October 30 2010 02:05 leveller wrote: 10 times worse than anything Naniwa did, is people gloating over this... I didnt like his behaviour and he obviosuly did something wrong to get 30 pp but comeon people. are you hyenas?
Apparently it's only bad if someone else does it. Even funnier though is that 99% of the people in this thread were never personally insulted by him - still he seems to have managed to make them quite upset! Just ignore him if you don't like him, kids.
its obvious he lived a life alot of people here would like to live and he threw it away, for whatever reason. you must be a fool to think people will understand his behavior and express their misconception by wishing him good luck and feeling sorry for him.
He can throw it away if he wants to, what business is it of yours? And I never implied that people should understand his behavior or feel sorry for him, etc. Why not simply ignore him?, instead of lowering yourselves to his level by spouting insults.
i think i´ve explained it good enough so you don´t have to ask me all those question, even tough my english sucks.. also i did not judge naniwa neither am i the spokesman of anyone here. i´ve tried to explain it to you but i think i failed since you still act like a bitch.
You've explained a whole lot of nothing. Nice insults though, you just proved my original point.
EPT
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