Many of you have already done this test, but still, it seems to be a valid point in sc2. How often have you not scouted looking hard for lets say a robobay and totally misses 1 or even 2 stargates? I admit, I have done that. What training can we put ourself in too, to not fall into this trap? Relaxing more and simply be aware of the issue? Having map and scout awareness is one of the most important things, but when I can get fooled so easy by this video, and also in sc2 in my experience, I simply do not know what I can work on to be better at it.
I have one idea, that is automating your macro to free your focus from it. To make an example, driving a car is actually hard in traffic, but over the years the driving gets as easy and automatic as walking the sideway. So one solution might be to just automate your macro and playstyle so you can free your focus up and notice all the different aspect of the game.
It would be helpful if you gave me some insight into this, as I often find myself in this trap of focusing hard on spawning larva, spreading creep and getting drones and expansions up. I have sometimes even scouted his entire bio army, and not done a single thing about it, like making a banelings and infestors, granted this is not something that happens often, but sometimes my mind just goes into lockdown. I also failed in the videotest above lol, only knowing how many passes and did not see any gorilla or anything else.
On August 31 2010 20:26 Mortician wrote: I never scout like that. When I scout I often ask myself the question "what do I see?" that way I dont miss much
I knew there would be a gorilla because I read about it before. This is the first time I actually watch it and saw the gorilla. Therefore even if you scout for the robobay, since you already know about the gates you should be able to spot them. Or maybe not but it feels natural to me.
I think you should not expect to see things... I never had this problem and cant you look at the base later to see any buildings that you might have missed?
I think what you're saying is, once the basics are second nature to you, you'll notice more when you scout. I'd have to agree with that. The less you have to consciously remind yourself to spawn larva, the more room there will be in your head (so to speak) for interpreting what your scouts see.
I've noticed that myself the more I play. At first, simply making units constantly required so much of my concentration that I was lucky to even remember to check on my scout before it died, let alone make any sense of what I saw. As time goes by, the basics require less focus and I can check on my scout and understand what I see a lot better.
I saw the Gorilla and the curtain but i missed the person leaving the game. But as this relates to starcraft i do see myself getting better at scouting as my mechanics become alot more natural.
That video is a joke. Its pretty flawed. Hey look for this stuff ok? Sure. Oh by the way did you catch this stuff? No because i was concentrating on what you asked me to do. If it said also be on the lookout for other things then ya it would be no problem.
On August 31 2010 23:19 tacrats wrote: That video is a joke. Its pretty flawed. Hey look for this stuff ok? Sure. Oh by the way did you catch this stuff? No because i was concentrating on what you asked me to do. If it said also be on the lookout for other things then ya it would be no problem.
That's... kind of the point. It shows that people get tunnel vision when they concentrate on any one thing. If you're scouting with your observer and missing the huge drop in your main you can't write it away by saying 'oh I was concentrated on scouting that doesn't count'. That gorilla is not exactly hidden.
caught the monkey and the black team member stepping out. missed the curtain color change. totally didn't expect that, which I guess is the contributing factor.
rofl how can people not miss the gorilla and the girl leaving .... The curtain did catch my eye but I can understand why people would miss that (slow transition) but the gorilla and the girl ?!?!?!?
What does that say about me then? And I saw other videos from after that video (the one with the lamp I think) and I was still like it's a lamp with a little plant in the room no?
On August 31 2010 23:19 tacrats wrote: That video is a joke. Its pretty flawed. Hey look for this stuff ok? Sure. Oh by the way did you catch this stuff? No because i was concentrating on what you asked me to do. If it said also be on the lookout for other things then ya it would be no problem.
That's... kind of the point. It shows that people get tunnel vision when they concentrate on any one thing. If you're scouting with your observer and missing the huge drop in your main you can't write it away by saying 'oh I was concentrated on scouting that doesn't count'. That gorilla is not exactly hidden.
Sorry but no. In sc you have to be aware of everything that is happening... of anything that can be in someones base or happening on screen. You know tunnel vision in sc isnt acceptable.
However in a youtube video that says hey we are going to test your perception, we want you to count the number of passes then thats all i am going to do. being aware of everything else happening in that video isnt even relevant because the only relevant thing is passes. So i just watched the ball.
On August 31 2010 23:19 tacrats wrote: That video is a joke. Its pretty flawed. Hey look for this stuff ok? Sure. Oh by the way did you catch this stuff? No because i was concentrating on what you asked me to do. If it said also be on the lookout for other things then ya it would be no problem.
That's... kind of the point. It shows that people get tunnel vision when they concentrate on any one thing. If you're scouting with your observer and missing the huge drop in your main you can't write it away by saying 'oh I was concentrated on scouting that doesn't count'. That gorilla is not exactly hidden.
But there are different objectives. When playing a game of SC, the objective is to win. Most people believe that paying attention to everything at once is the best way to win. Tunnel vision is on winning the game, not on particular things in the game.
A test more relevant to SC2 would ask the viewer to pay attention to everything: the types of passes, the people who were doing them, the number of passes, and any other changes going on. If people naturally prioritize one thing over another without having reason for it, and causing an overall lower performance, then we might learn a lesson useful for SC.
I hate scouting in PvP and seeing nothing, im always like DAMN 2GATE PROXIED AGAIN. But seriously, as long as you focus on what you see and not what you think you should see i don't think you would miss anything when scouting.
I saw the player leave and the gorilla, but not the curtain (I've never heard of this video before or anything).
As to scouting, not really a problem I have. I just keep a mental checklist for threats and go through what I should see, then which of those threats are possible as anything I don't see. For instance, if I scout a Terran's main, and see 2 Starports with Tech Labs, it could be Banshees, or it could be Cruisers and they've hidden a Fusion Core. If I scout that same Terran's main and see all the same things except I don't see the Starports, I'll probably realize something is missing and that it could be Banshees or Cruisers, or also a hidden expansion or Thors. Then I'll scout for cues to try and eliminate those things (If he has a lot of gas, for instance, then it's probably not a hidden expo).
noticed the curtains changing colours and went "waaat weren't they red? and then noticed one of the members being gone and a weird ass gorilla making weird crap. and counted to 16
damn i must be awesome at this :D
anyways, i've never missed anything when scouting, though i do miss stuff happening on the map. might be some training needed there.
i had a ZvT game last night where I scouted and saw a factory with tech lab, and I thought to myself, hmm, looks like he's going mech. For some reason it didn't occur to me that if he goes mech, it means he'll likely build hellions to harass me soon. I guess that's because I was thinking more long term what unit composition im going to need to deal with thors and siege tanks, that I failed to put up sufficient defense for his hellion harass, and I lost all my expo drones.
TRIPPY VIDEO!!! nice post though, i think that's one of the major things that sets the pros apart is how much attention they put on non-macro oriented things because macro is just 2nd nature to them.
On August 31 2010 23:19 tacrats wrote: That video is a joke. Its pretty flawed. Hey look for this stuff ok? Sure. Oh by the way did you catch this stuff? No because i was concentrating on what you asked me to do. If it said also be on the lookout for other things then ya it would be no problem.
That's... kind of the point. It shows that people get tunnel vision when they concentrate on any one thing. If you're scouting with your observer and missing the huge drop in your main you can't write it away by saying 'oh I was concentrated on scouting that doesn't count'. That gorilla is not exactly hidden.
16, saw gorilla, saw curtain change (although i assumed at the time it was some kind of colour invert). Did not see girl leave. Don't think this is a kind of perception that applies in sc2.
I noticed the gorrilla, the person leaving, the curtain changing color, and the number of passes being 16.....yet i don't consider myself a good multitasker.
This test fails because It tells you that there is an importance to something in the video.
You have an easier time remembering something you are focusing on then remembering something that you don't care about. This "illusion" works ANYWHERE any place, any time.
Go to a street and tell someone to count cars that pass by, then ask "did you see the bicycler go across the sidewalk? No because you don't care.
In Starcraft 2, a good player knows what's important to look at. Enemy scouts, drops, mini map, etc. Because they all have some kind of importance to them. Of course you can still get distracted by big battles and it's easy for some things to slip because a lot of times it can be just a tiny red dot on the screen that you missed when you are looking at a battle, simply because it's difficult to see and it's on a tiny section of the screen for only a small amount of time..
The SC2 equivalent of this video would be like focusing on attacking units in a battle and missing a colossus go through the middle of the battle. I doubt anyone here would miss that. However. Repeat the same thing and then ask "did you see the critter walk through the battle? I doubt anyone would notice because it's not something you think as important.
TLDR: Your mind draws attention to something you think is important even if you aren't actively searching for it, but if you don't think something is important it can slip by easily.
never heard of this video, i was like ok this will be easy, i counted to 15 because i get sidetracked easily... i was like woah gorilla wait what? also noticed the player leaving as it happens to close to the gorilla appearing which i was already distracted by... i also noticed the curtains changed near the end and was like when did that happen?
as for scouting tips, just work on not forgetting about stuff and seeing what you see is important... The problem i was finding when i started SC2 is that at high level play its about what you see and determining what you dont see by what you did see.
Example, in a pvp you scout 3 gates, a core, plus 2 gas, but do not see an army or anything else.( assume scout died of a heartattack for example purposes) what does the enemy have? one could determine they either are going Stargate,Robo,Twilight that is hidden. Now you see their army. now this is the fun logic part, If you see mostly Zeals, they are going tech heavy with gas, which could mean stargate or robo, if stalkers odds are they went twighlight.
In short if you know what your enemy is has by the information you see, you should be able to determine that something is missing without seeing it.
thats pretty much covers the first part.
The second part i would say yes you need to be comfortable with your macro, if your entire thought process is going remember build, macro, build, macro, its harder to focus on other tasks and the above technique will not be possible by paying attention as your attention is elsewhere. If you truly want to be good at a game like this you need to develop strong macro and relax and get it to the point where it comes natural, much like your example of driving a car. However this is more difficult than driving a car as bad habits really hurt your macro the longer you play as the more you do these bad habits the harder it is to break them.
On September 01 2010 14:22 KiF1rE wrote: never heard of this video, i was like ok this will be easy, i counted to 15 because i get sidetracked easily... i was like woah gorilla wait what? also noticed the player leaving as it happens to close to the gorilla appearing which i was already distracted by... i also noticed the curtains changed near the end and was like when did that happen?
as for scouting tips, just work on not forgetting about stuff and seeing what you see is important... The problem i was finding when i started SC2 is that at high level play its about what you see and determining what you dont see by what you did see.
Example, in a pvp you scout 3 gates, a core, plus 2 gas, but do not see an army or anything else.( assume scout died of a heartattack for example purposes) what does the enemy have? one could determine they either are going Stargate,Robo,Twilight that is hidden. Now you see their army. now this is the fun logic part, If you see mostly Zeals, they are going tech heavy with gas, which could mean stargate or robo, if stalkers odds are they went twighlight.
In short if you know what your enemy is has by the information you see, you should be able to determine that something is missing without seeing it.
thats pretty much covers the first part.
The second part i would say yes you need to be comfortable with your macro, if your entire thought process is going remember build, macro, build, macro, its harder to focus on other tasks and the above technique will not be possible by paying attention as your attention is elsewhere. If you truly want to be good at a game like this you need to develop strong macro and relax and get it to the point where it comes natural, much like your example of driving a car. However this is more difficult than driving a car as bad habits really hurt your macro the longer you play as the more you do these bad habits the harder it is to break them.
haha epic fail ^_^ you missed the count but saw all the other irrelevant shit :D i had watched this thing with only the gorilla a long time ago so i was like yeaaah there's the gorilla and i still counted 16, and then the video was like: lolz, we also changed THIS! but ofc me being the inattentive dumbass that i am didn't notice anything except the gorilla
On September 01 2010 14:22 KiF1rE wrote: never heard of this video, i was like ok this will be easy, i counted to 15 because i get sidetracked easily... i was like woah gorilla wait what? also noticed the player leaving as it happens to close to the gorilla appearing which i was already distracted by... i also noticed the curtains changed near the end and was like when did that happen?
as for scouting tips, just work on not forgetting about stuff and seeing what you see is important... The problem i was finding when i started SC2 is that at high level play its about what you see and determining what you dont see by what you did see.
Example, in a pvp you scout 3 gates, a core, plus 2 gas, but do not see an army or anything else.( assume scout died of a heartattack for example purposes) what does the enemy have? one could determine they either are going Stargate,Robo,Twilight that is hidden. Now you see their army. now this is the fun logic part, If you see mostly Zeals, they are going tech heavy with gas, which could mean stargate or robo, if stalkers odds are they went twighlight.
In short if you know what your enemy is has by the information you see, you should be able to determine that something is missing without seeing it.
thats pretty much covers the first part.
The second part i would say yes you need to be comfortable with your macro, if your entire thought process is going remember build, macro, build, macro, its harder to focus on other tasks and the above technique will not be possible by paying attention as your attention is elsewhere. If you truly want to be good at a game like this you need to develop strong macro and relax and get it to the point where it comes natural, much like your example of driving a car. However this is more difficult than driving a car as bad habits really hurt your macro the longer you play as the more you do these bad habits the harder it is to break them.
completely agree with paragraph one haha...
11..12... whoah wtf why is there a gorilla? (and i began contemplating the significance of the gorilla that i knew i was supposed to be looking for and missed a pass) and only got to 15... and then it said "did u notice the girl leave? " No.. i was lookin at the gorrilla... "did u notice the curtain change?" no i was thinkin "shit i think i missed a pass and i still dont understand the significance of the gorilla in this test.. how can some1 not see the gorilla... it even pauses in the middle"
i think this means im more interested in interesting things than boring things like "how many times did she pass the ball?" "idk.. but did u see the effin gorrilla? i didnt wanna focus too hard and miss the gorilla!"
lol relating to sc/sc2 tho... i think the major difference like most people are saying, is that macro game is like 2nd nature to good players, they dont even realize that they just spawned larva and spread creep and made a new expo... instead they see whatever they are micro'ing/scouting and the other stuff is just like "o good i did do that subconsciously..i was hoping i did but i wasn't lookin at or thinking about it"
just like occasionally... VERY VERY rarely... you will see a pro or very strong player go to build a unit and be like " lol.... i didnt spawn larva 30 seconds ago..." or like they expect something to be done and when they realize they didnt do it they laugh like "haha what a noob move by my subconscious"
EPT
