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**EDIT: Warning - If you don't care about getting better or only play for fun, do not read. What this thread is trying to say is that to get better as a player, you shouldn't cheese much in ladder. Nothing else. Please stay on topic.**
I define cheese as: A mostly unpreventable, unscoutable (in time), luck-based strategy, usually a rush, that relies on your opponent being unprepared or not knowing what to do, but would probably not work twice against the same player.
I've played my fair share of ladder games, and I'd say that in about 10% of games my opponents try to cheese me. I'm sure alot of people here on teamliquid.net cheese as well. Now, I'm not complaining about this, as it always makes for good practice. However, this practice is much better for me, not the cheeser.
In my opinion, which is probably correct, cheesing should not be the strategy you use on a game-to-game basis. Simply put - cheesing is not difficult. Any competent RTSer can execute a cheese to near perfection. Cheeses often occur early in the game, where macro is not a factor, and the need for micro is usually minimal. I mean, how much micro do you need to proxy 4 gate or lift dual rax into the back of someones base and create reactors? Or the marine/scv rush vs protoss. Does that really take much skill? 8 pool? Make you a better player?
The point is, cheesing IS in fact a great way to win, but IS NOT a great way to get better at the game. If someone cheeses in 50% of their games, and someone else cheese in 0% of their games, effectively, the first person is recieving 50% relevant game practice, while the other player is recieving almost 100% relevant game practice. To become a better player, one must learn to play in the standard way, macro/micro/management/tactics, because while cheesing will work sometimes, it won't work all the time, and when it doesn't, and you realize you have to start playing normal games, you're screwed.
**edit:added for clarity - I recommend reading the entire thread**
Consider this example:
Player 1 plays for 1 year playing 10% of his games as Cheese builds 90% Standard builds.
Player 2 plays for 1 year playing 50% of his games as Cheese builds 50% Standard builds.
Player 1 faces player 2 in a best of 5 match.
Who will win?
Now who do you consider the better player?
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I personally think cheesing should only be used for tournaments or extremely important games, where you can surprise your opponent in 1 game, not the ladder, which should predominantly be used for practice. The way to get better is to cheese sparingly, and play standard much. If you can never beat a person straight-up you're the worse player, no matter what. It is much easier to make changes to stop a cheeser than to suddenly become good at the game. So if you have a new idea for a cheese or want to try new things out, go ahead. A loss is MUCH more valuable than a win. Don't just go into every game with the mindset "I only play to win" and try to cheese the majority of your games. Because while you may win for now, in the end, it is you who will lose.
2 great posts illustrating my point:
IdrA - page 3
Floophead_III - page 5
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Haha I don't know what you want us to say here... agreed?
I'd only practice cheese with teammates and friends, and would only do it in a BO3/BO5/etc. series.
That said, I'd also only do it if I know my opponent or if I know they are significantly better than me.
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"Any competent RTSer can execute a cheese to near perfection."
No. Practicing cheese is very useful. It's a great way to throw the opponent of his game. If you practice transitioning from cheese then you will be at an advantage if the cheese doesn't end the game.
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What if you wanna practice cheese? Practicing cheese with friends is stupid, as you can only play one game with them. Then they'll know it's coming. It's also super boring to practice vs cheese.
Cheese doesn't take micro? -.-
Everyone knows cheesing every time isn't the best way to get better at this game, but where else other than in ladder play would you practice cheese?
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If no one tries it right now, we may not find out which cheeses are overpowered. In SC1 we haven't really found any cheese to be so overwhelmingly unstoppable, but lets say we find out that say... 3 warpgate zealot is overpowered, but we find out right as the OSL prelims start. What happens when 2/3 of the league is protoss? The beta should be about trying everything so blizzard can balance properly, so I think this is the perfect time to mix in some cheese.
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Cheesing is very much appreciated during a beta test. The more abusive the cheeses get the more imbalances can be fixed.
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I cheese as punishment when people don't scout me. That's really the only time I do it though.
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I disagree, I learn many new things each time I cheese. Plus, it is just as complex as playing standard, expecially when things go awry and you have to adapt.
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On March 16 2010 23:20 TS-Rupbar wrote:
What if you wanna practice cheese? Practicing cheese with friends is stupid, as you can only play one game with them. Then they'll know it's coming. It's also super boring to practice vs cheese.
Cheese doesn't take micro? -.-
Everyone knows cheesing every time isn't the best way to get better at this game, but where else other than in ladder play would you practice cheese?
I said in my post if you have a new cheese/want to practice it go ahead, i'm just saying it shouldn't be a majority of your games.
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On March 16 2010 23:23 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 23:20 TS-Rupbar wrote:
What if you wanna practice cheese? Practicing cheese with friends is stupid, as you can only play one game with them. Then they'll know it's coming. It's also super boring to practice vs cheese.
Cheese doesn't take micro? -.-
Everyone knows cheesing every time isn't the best way to get better at this game, but where else other than in ladder play would you practice cheese? I said in my post if you have a new cheese/want to practice it go ahead, i'm just saying it shouldn't be a majority of your games.
If you want to practice something, you do it every game. Saying that people shouldn't cheese in ladder with the argument that cheese is better in tournament play is quite absurd imo,
On lower levels on ICC, I cheese a lot because I can't be bothered to play 20 standard games before I get to C- and can have some decent games.
As a previous poster said, I'm not sure what you want this thread to talk about. Yes, it's boring to be cheesed. End thread.
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Disagreed:
Why you should cheese in the Beta ladder.
The goal is to exploit the game and find whatever strategies are unstoppable/imbalanced. You've basically been chosen to this, that's what a beta is for. If you think you can win every game with a cheese, exploit your heart out and make people cry on the forums.
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lol. i cheese every game. it makes starcraft actually fun. and i usually never do the same thing twice. each game i will try something different. whether its against zerg and rushing quick to scouts or proxy in his base its very fun. "cheesing should not be used on a game to game basis" <--- lame. using build orders is lame. (Oh crap this is SC2 isnt it. sorry.)
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How can you say anyone can cheese near perfect? Also I dno what your point is.
Like the guy some posts above said about practicing cheese with mates only etc, but if someone wanna cheese in ladder why not?
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Disagree with the opening post, no clue whatsoever. Especially as Terran if you proxy rax it needs immense amounts of micro / multitasking to keep your marines alive and don't die to as example drones with autosurround...
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I'm glad you took time to argue your points. The topic title could have been from some frustrated player posting 3 lines in anger after being 'cheesed'. So thanks for that.
That said I really could not disagree more. You argue any competent player is capable of cheesing to perfection which is very far from the truth. There definitely is a lot of skill in the minor differences. The same small differences you might forget to perform in a long game that do not matter when you have large armies. You might be overseeing them because of this, because when performing an early game strategy designed to take the game they are important and difficult. As it's possible to win games with 'cheese' at the highest level amongst progamers in Korea you are basically arguing anybody could take a game from those guys performing the same kind of cheese. It's plain wrong. There is a lot of skill in cheesing as there is in a long game. It requires planning, practice and lots of thought. What you might argue is that you don't need the same kind of micro/macro as you do in a long game which is true, yet it doesn't mean everyone becomes equal.
The other argument against your post is that this is the Beta and we are testing. You are pretty much required to use whatever it takes to win so that it brings awareness to Blizzard's numbers about balancing the races, balancing the early and the late game. If everyone would refuse to cheese in the Beta ladder and Blizzard therefor keeps everything the same, then the effective cheeses will become 100% of the tournament games after SC2 is released, as tournament games are all about winning.
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the 8pool isnt so much cheese as it is an aggressive opener. The goal of it is to do a lot of economic harassment early enough and then transition into roaches for continued pressure.
My style has always been one of near relentless harassment and aggressive denial of expansions while my creep slowly eats the map. 8pool is a great opener for that on certain maps.
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I dunno what this op is smokin, I got to like 50 on platinum with 80-90% cheese. Then I started to play legit with the higher skilled players. And I'm pretty sure my cheese tactics would still be working in at least 50% of my games I play at rank 11 now. Besides, cheese is relative. I don't consider anything cheap or cheese, it's just an (often) inferior strategy which usually relies on catching an opponent off guard or taking advantage of their weak early game. So in other words, it's all part of the game.
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I am new to TL and also to SC scene so I am not familiar with the history of the term "cheese". However, it seems from the OP that any unorthodox strategy that beats orthodox play is labelled as cheese by the people that got beaten by it. I find this whole cheese-calling arbitrary and subjective. As far as I am concerned, any strategy within the game rules is fair and valid.
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If I see Idra in a game though, you can bet there will be cheese. I'll lose, but I have to cheese
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On March 17 2010 00:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm glad you took time to argue your points. The topic title could have been from some frustrated player posting 3 lines in anger after being 'cheesed'. So thanks for that.
That said I really could not disagree more. You argue any competent player is capable of cheesing to perfection which is very far from the truth. There definitely is a lot of skill in the minor differences. The same small differences you might forget to perform in a long game that do not matter when you have large armies. You might be overseeing them because of this, because when performing an early game strategy designed to take the game they are important and difficult. As it's possible to win games with 'cheese' at the highest level amongst progamers in Korea you are basically arguing anybody could take a game from those guys performing the same kind of cheese. It's plain wrong. There is a lot of skill in cheesing as there is in a long game. It requires planning, practice and lots of thought. What you might argue is that you don't need the same kind of micro/macro as you do in a long game which is true, yet it doesn't mean everyone becomes equal.
The other argument against your post is that this is the Beta and we are testing. You are pretty much required to use whatever it takes to win so that it brings awareness to Blizzard's numbers about balancing the races, balancing the early and the late game. If everyone would refuse to cheese in the Beta ladder and Blizzard therefor keeps everything the same, then the effective cheeses will become 100% of the tournament games after SC2 is released, as tournament games are all about winning.
You have a good point, but let me pose to you a question, and this goes to everyone trying to argue against my post.
If one player cheesed 50% of their games, and another player cheesed only 10% of their games, after one year of intensive playing, who do you think would be the better player?
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EPT
