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51698 Posts
On July 23 2018 20:28 Faruko wrote:
Pickford to Chelsea is almost a done deal
Hopefully Courtois leaves and he is the 1st GK, i think England FINALLY has a keeper worth the place
interesting to target pickford over say, butland - who i assume would be way cheaper given he would be coming from a relegated side.
holy fucking shit that is a bargain
then again his wages are probably astronomical
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On July 23 2018 20:11 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2018 18:42 clusen wrote:On July 23 2018 09:45 DucK- wrote:
What's wrong with taking a photo with erdogan? The whole thing got politicized That was exactly the intention behind the photo by Erdogan and that dumbfuck Özil either let Erdogan take advantage of him(unlikely) or didn't care. That is why people are mad at him and why he (and Gündogan) should've been kicked out of the team before the tournament in not only my opinion. If you want I can explain a bit about the background. This just isn't the same as taking a pic with Macron or whoever. € @Stratos You can argue with all of his points besides his dig at Grindel. He even contradicts himself at certain points... Well obviously taking photos with politicians would carry a risk that it gets politicised, especially when you're a prominent figure. I think people are unhappy because they're equating the photo as ozil's clear public endorsement of the regime. So what if deep inside he likes erdogan, who could be a dictator/murderer or whatever. That's his choice to make. If the UK is OK to welcome such a person, what's wrong with ozil doing so.
As a representative of Germany by being a member of the german national team he endorsed someone who has declared Germany to be an enemy, literally Hitler and imprisoned German nationals without cause / as political leverage.
And all he had to do to clear it up was say, "Sorry I meant to show respect to the president of the country of my ancestors, but I clearly do not endorse his recent actions or his election campaign."
Nothing is more telling than him still not distancing himself and instead trying to claim that the picture taken by an official photographer during an official meeting as part of an election campaign, was in fact not political and only a personal momento -.-
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On July 23 2018 20:11 DucK- wrote:
So what if deep inside he likes erdogan, who could be a dictator/murderer or whatever. That's his choice to make. If the UK is OK to welcome such a person, what's wrong with ozil doing so.
The UK welcoming Erdogan is just basic diplomacy, I don't see why you would compare that situation to Özil.
And I agree that it's his choice to make - but then he also has to bear the consequences. The consequences of helping Erdogan, Mr. Dollar Store Hitler, with his election campaign for example.
€
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Just think of how many kids with a Turkish background idolize Özil who's in the German national team. Of course German politics isn't happy with it, they don't need another generation of people with an immigrant background supporting a dictator in their 'home' country. Same here in NL, it's bad enough these people have suffrage in 2 countries, one of which they don't even live in.
Of course it's Özil's personal decision, but he should have known there would be some backlash over it, especially with the WC coming up and the focus is on the national teams.
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On July 23 2018 22:29 aseq wrote:
Just think of how many kids with a Turkish background idolize Özil who's in the German national team. Of course German politics isn't happy with it, they don't need another generation of people with an immigrant background supporting a dictator in their 'home' country. Same here in NL, it's bad enough these people have suffrage in 2 countries, one of which they don't even live in.
Of course it's Özil's personal decision, but he should have known there would be some backlash over it, especially with the WC coming up and the focus is on the national teams.
This isn't a win for anybody.
Ozil looks like a prick for refusing to take any responsibility whatsoever for why taking that photo was a problem.
The DFB looks terrible because this is going to discourage Germans with Turkish ancestry to associate with the German team.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
The issue i mainly have is that regardless of the picture, people always are "he is a turkish immagrent" when he plays bad aka this world cup and he is "germany national treasure" when they win the world cup and he played a huge part, if not one of the main parts.
I don't like that side of the issue, i am not up to speed with Erdogan vs Merkel/German people and in football i care very little about that. Being "racist" to your own people is where the problem is though. Ozil chose to play for Germany not Turkey that should say it all if you think he "isn't on your side" argument stuff.
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I'm kind of confused that now I have to root for Wolves due to the sheer portugueseness of that team. It's getting kind of ridiculous.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On July 23 2018 23:30 warding wrote:
I'm kind of confused that now I have to root for Wolves due to the sheer portugueseness of that team. It's getting kind of ridiculous.
Jorge Mendes, actually insane what he can do. We were discussing Raiola being a twat and then someone mentioned at how Mendes is stupidly powerful. This proves it, he has basically gone into Wolves and made them a stupidly solid side with all this Portuguese talent.
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On July 23 2018 23:30 warding wrote:
I'm kind of confused that now I have to root for Wolves due to the sheer portugueseness of that team. It's getting kind of ridiculous.
I think they have more Portuguese players than both Porto and Benfica combined xD
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On July 23 2018 23:10 Pandemona wrote:
The issue i mainly have is that regardless of the picture, people always are "he is a turkish immagrent" when he plays bad aka this world cup and he is "germany national treasure" when they win the world cup and he played a huge part, if not one of the main parts.
I don't like that side of the issue, i am not up to speed with Erdogan vs Merkel/German people and in football i care very little about that. Being "racist" to your own people is where the problem is though. Ozil chose to play for Germany not Turkey that should say it all if you think he "isn't on your side" argument stuff.
Of course there will be some idiots using the situation for racist propaganda with "arguments" like "he should be thankful for all germany/the german national team has given him" or justification for their racism, however noone of any importance has publicly done anything of that sort, most if not all of this is part of Özil's victim story.
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On July 23 2018 23:10 Pandemona wrote:
The issue i mainly have is that regardless of the picture, people always are "he is a turkish immagrent" when he plays bad aka this world cup and he is "germany national treasure" when they win the world cup and he played a huge part, if not one of the main parts.
I don't like that side of the issue, i am not up to speed with Erdogan vs Merkel/German people and in football i care very little about that. Being "racist" to your own people is where the problem is though. Ozil chose to play for Germany not Turkey that should say it all if you think he "isn't on your side" argument stuff.
The general opinion/ media opinion about Özil was a mirror of what's happening at Arsenal, critisizing him way too harshly after bad games because of body language and whatnot - that's it. Same shit Kroos had to endure at Bayern for example.
I don't doubt that you find people who were attacking him because of his roots, but they would have done that anyway, regardless of the performance. The kind of people who don't want people like Özil in the team in the first place. Don't make this the fucking general opinion.
Also iirc he won national team player of the year for fucking 5 years. A fan vote award. We didn't win shit in any of those years. Kind of contradicting your statement, isn't it.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
No that was in the same article i read how he won all those awards yet people still when he had a bad game in Germany pointed to those racist remarks towards him.
The DFB also have caused friction here with there statement no? As in for the future with Turkish national players might not chose to represent Germany because of this now? Ozil is a huge star in Turkey just as he is in Germany for example right.
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On July 24 2018 00:09 Pandemona wrote:
No that was in the same article i read how he won all those awards yet people still when he had a bad game in Germany pointed to those racist remarks towards him.
The DFB also have caused friction here with there statement no? As in for the future with Turkish national players might not chose to represent Germany because of this now? Ozil is a huge star in Turkey just as he is in Germany for example right.
And the article obviously can back that up with sources, right?
Can you atleast link the article?
The DFB did what they always do, stupid things. You won't find many people, if any, that will defend them :p
I don't think their statement will have any effect tho.
Özil supporting the election campaign of someone who is actively trying to destroy any integration effort from Turkish and German side because he doesn't want them to be integrated however might.
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Apparently Özil still has relatives living in Turkey. I wouldnt be surprised if he's (legitimately?) afraid of what will happen to them if he publicly renounces Erdogan. It is definitely a situation which I'm glad I will probably never be in myself, and as a consequence I would be very careful to judge him. However, of course I would have preferred if he had never the picture.
If he is actively supporting his election campaign, that would be another matter however. But as I havent heard that yet, and it surely would have been brought up in the discussion, I would like to see a source here first.
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On July 24 2018 01:00 Mafe wrote:
Apparently Özil still has relatives living in Turkey. I wouldnt be surprised if he's (legitimately?) afraid of what will happen to them if he publicly renounces Erdogan. It is definitely a situation which I'm glad I will probably never be in myself, and as a consequence I would be very careful to judge him. However, of course I would have preferred if he had never the picture.
If he is actively supporting his election campaign, that would be another matter however. But as I havent heard that yet, and it surely would have been brought up in the discussion, I would like to see a source here first.
I mean this. I think he legitimately believes in his Turkish heritage and that picture was more of a message of respect for his country then an endorsement for erdogan.
If nothing else his tweets show that he is personally conflicted about his identity of a Turkish heritage while seeing himself as a German. I think hes really hurt that people didn't stand by him after what hes done for the country and his decision to play for Germany instead of turkey.
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Norway28906 Posts
I also don't think football players have ever really been renowned for their political knowledge. Dunno if it's reasonable to hold özil accountable for not understanding the significance of his political messaging.
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On July 24 2018 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I also don't think football players have ever really been renowned for their political knowledge. Dunno if it's reasonable to hold özil accountable for not understanding the significance of his political messaging.
Both Özil and Gundogan have the same player agency and at least Özil has a Turkish-German agent. I could easily see the agent's political interests being involved here too.
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On July 24 2018 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I also don't think football players have ever really been renowned for their political knowledge. Dunno if it's reasonable to hold özil accountable for not understanding the significance of his political messaging.
When you're a public figure, you're responsible for understanding what effects your pictures/statements will have.
This is true of any celebrity from any industry.
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On July 24 2018 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I also don't think football players have ever really been renowned for their political knowledge. Dunno if it's reasonable to hold özil accountable for not understanding the significance of his political messaging.
IF that had been the case, he had ample opportunity to publically apologize or at least renounce any support for Erdogan and his politics, which neither he nor Gündogan have done to this day, so this argument is completely void. They either knew exactly what they were doing or at the very least willingly accepted being used for Erdogan's election campaign.
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On July 24 2018 06:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2018 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I also don't think football players have ever really been renowned for their political knowledge. Dunno if it's reasonable to hold özil accountable for not understanding the significance of his political messaging. When you're a public figure, you're responsible for understanding what effects your pictures/statements will have. This is true of any celebrity from any industry.
I find it somewhat amusing that people insist on holding public figures to personally manufactured standards..
I dont personally endorse Erdogan, to me hes Putin light and a scummier version because he claims to represent something I have a connection to, .. and I wouldn't be thrilled if someone I looked upto was doing something like that, but frankly formulating all sorts of motivations to hate on someone for for a photo OP is a bit extreme...
+ Show Spoiler +
The mere fact that its a debate and not universally acknowledged as a bad thing should be enough for people against it to let it go. If you are really going to go fall into an argument that relies on political grievances..wellll post war Germany hasnt exactly always been particularly generous to people of Turkish origin either. So if you are going to play that sort of gutter game you can fling shit back and forth all day pretending like the hill you are occupying is the right one. All for a nothing burger.
This the discourse of third world countries. Everytime I see people circle back here, im like "fuck, I guess we ain to bad after all.
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EPT
