EPTDurant is better off-the-catch than Lebron too, he can play without the ball better within GSW. I still would have taken Warriors+Lebron over Cavs+Durant :D.
NBA Finals 2017 - Page 5
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Durant is better off-the-catch than Lebron too, he can play without the ball better within GSW. I still would have taken Warriors+Lebron over Cavs+Durant :D. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 07 2017 01:35 ZenithM wrote: Probably. Cavs need a main playmaker, Warriors need... uh... another scorer? Durant is better off-the-catch than Lebron too, he can play without the ball better within GSW. I still would have taken Warriors+Lebron over Cavs+Durant :D. I agree. I think if they did the swap we wouldn't be talking about a 12-0 vs 12-1 matchup | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 07 2017 02:27 zev318 wrote: i think lebrons game would fit well in any system because he's a good/willing passer. i dont think the warriors would be a worse team with lebron I don't think I could disagree with this opinion more (aside from Lebron being great and a good/willing passer). IMO every one of his teams since the 2010 Cavs have under-performed for their talent level (one could argue the 2015 Cavs after Love/Kyrie went out are another example, but thats not a whole season). It is hard to describe my gut instinct on what Lebron is (compared to other elite players I've seen), but he is the least plug-and-play of them. Like, you put him with Wade & Bosh, and their production goes down (that's natural, it usually happens when you go to a better team), but in order for the team to actually work (2012), their production has to go way down, and fundamentally shift. The same is true for Kevin Love (who should be traded because Lebron should play the 4 from now on), and even Kyrie is seeing the effects. IMO he has a high degree of anti-synergy with other good/great players. They become role players in the "Lebron Offense". I think it is because when Lebron is playing his best game, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving (Or Klay, Steph, Draymond) add very little value compared to Channing Frye and J.R. Smith on the offensive side of the ball when LBJ has it. This, of course, makes his teambuilding choices very odd (he should focus on getting defensive players on his team). It is really weird (even with Lebron resting) that he has one 60+ win season in the last 7 (you would expect 5 or 6 given the preseason talent). | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
and even that heat team, because bosh/wade/lebron made so much, they could really only fill out the rest of the team with cheap veterans. the warriors did too of course, but the cap (58 to 94) went up, and there's also the fact that curry is only making 12mil. zaza and mcgee are being paid extremely low (even lower than the vets that the heat signed) and i think they have greatly outplayed their salaries. the warriors are just a deeper team and have more team oriented players imo. i just think if lebron did not have to carry as much of the offense as he has had to throughout the vast majority, if not all, of his career, and he would not have to if he played on the warriors today, he can def focus on the other things that he is great at and it would mesh just as well as durant right now if not better. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
My personal feeling is that Lebron won't mix well with any heavy ball-handler because he's just not that good of a shooter off-the-catch (or as you said, zev138, has never really been in a situation where that was asked of him). Sure, he can shoot really well in isolations, but he's never been the type of guy to come out of a screen, rise up and shoot. That's why you meet diminishing returns very soon if you pair him up with another guy who needs the ball as well. The Warriors are unique in that all of their scorers are very dangerous off-the-ball as well, because they're good catch&shooters (to say the fucking least). It creates so many ways for them to attack a defense, because at any point, Durant, Curry and Draymond can handle while Durant, Curry or Klay can come out at the 3 pt line or cut. That's just easy offense right there. The recipe for a Lebron team to beat the Warriors is "infinite stamina Lebron + three 3&D players + defensive center", not this "regular Lebron + 2 offensive stars + nobody else contributes" :D. Edit: Got me curious about Lebron's % on catch&shoot. It's 56.7 EFG% on 1.9 FGA this year. Durant and Curry are at 63.8 EFG% on 4.7 FGA, and 67.8 EFG% on 5.1 FGA. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
To be fair to Lebron, his co-superstars have been on-ball players for the most part. He's never had an off the ball player like Klay Thompson at the height of his career. The closest has been over the hill Ray Allen in Miami. Kyrie is actually a great spot up shooter but it lessens his game when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Steph is a better off the ball player. I think Lebron would pair up well with a player like Durant who can quickly make plays the moment he gets the ball, even if he doesn't end up shooting it. Instead, he ends up with players like Love whose post moves develop too slowly to take advantage of what Lebron brings to the table. Same with Wade's inside moves really. Lebron has never played with Warriors-style players who can do things quickly after they get the ball from Lebron. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
And Warriors + Lebron seems worse than Warriors + KD. You'd rather have an extra shooter than another playmaker. As you said, if you had Lebron, Draymond just wouldn't do anything. You just went one tier beyond in our fantasy world with that Lebron and Durant combo there, andrewlt. (Edit: I'm kidding, I agree with your point about KD potentially meshing well with Lebron). I still think Lebron not being a good catch&shooter is a good reason why you can't really pair him with ball dominant players. Like, I'm pretty sure Lebron + CP3 wouldn't be that impressive, even though CP3 would be great at finding Lebron (much better than Kyrie). I mean sure, Lebron is going to get one or two dunks here and there but what else? It's worth saying that we wouldn't have this conversation if KD hadn't joined the Warriors. Last year, Warriors and Cavs were more evenly matched. But this Warriors team is so good that we end up talking about how Lebron, of all players, is too flawed to beat them with his current team... This Cavs team demolishes about anybody else in the league, maybe except the Spurs. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lJ9fbpQ.jpg) there is more to creating offense than just putting the ball in the hoop, however, many Cavs role players are not exactly lighting up the scoreboard. | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
And to go back to the earlier conversation, switching Durant with Lebron on the Warriors would make much of Draymond's offensive skillset redundant but Lebron would work extremely well with Steph and Klay. Those two are the kind of players who would work really well with his skillset. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
it appears i'm not alone.... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2713860-2017-nba-finals-ratings-after-2-games-highest-since-michael-jordans-final-title JR Smith gets the start. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19559935/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-tyronn-lue-says-no-major-changes-game-3-nba-finals | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
with the possible exception of Richard Jefferson of course. and some nice defense by RJ on his 1st possession on defense. | ||
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18051 Posts
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
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