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On September 07 2015 10:33 TheYango wrote:The thing that bothers me about HS and HotS is this weird casual/competitive duality. Blizzard is content to promote tournament play for both games, but simultaneously omitting competitive game features under the justification of them being casual games (e.g. drafting in HotS not having bans). if you're going to promote your game as a competitive game, then you should rightfully be criticized for the omission of competitive features. Especially since most such features don't negatively impact casual play at all. Being a casual game and being a competitive game are not mutually exclusive. Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 10:32 AlterKot wrote:
I don't really feel like there's one big reason why noone likes hots, I think everyone has their own reasons to not like it. Sspecifically I think that I dislike HOTS for the same reasons I dislike DOTA, whereas someone who plays Dota and dislikes League probably has similar issues with HOTS. What reasons are those? My gripes with League have very little to do with my gripes about HotS.The design of LoL went in a different direction than I personally enjoy, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the core of the game itself that bothers me. The same isn't true of HotS.
i personally don't like their business model.
however i really like how their maps have like 2 part maps connected by a tunnel thing
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah that's also true, the pay model for HotS is pretty annoying.
Which is surprising because they got the pay model for an online CCG basically perfect with HS.
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On September 07 2015 10:46 TheYango wrote:
Yeah that's also true, the pay model for HotS is pretty annoying.
Which is surprising because they got the pay model for an online CCG basically perfect with HS.
i'd imagine that the people in charge of both games are different entities within the company and don't interact much
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Wait there's no bans in Heroes? So what the hell are the OGN tourney doing when they ban stuff? Just doing it because?
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To be fair League also has the problem of being both a competitive game for profesional players and trying to maintain the spot as the most popular game in the world.
As for reasons, my dislike for Hots is mostly just about actual fighting and dueling - it's boring. I like having different maps with their own mechanics, I like mounts, I like talent trees and shared exp and no lasthits. But just fights themselves, whether big or small, were so boring compared to League, it felt like game of the smallest inches where there is so little room for outplay that the fight gets decided by the smallest mistakes. Similarly I dislike actual fighting in Dota while don't really care all that much for more interesting item builds, drafting and map movement.
I have a terrible memory so I can't really recall particular arguments from my dota friends about why they dislike hots, but if I recall correctly then it boils down to game being simpler and shallower.
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On September 07 2015 11:02 Parnage wrote:
Wait there's no bans in Heroes? So what the hell are the OGN tourney doing when they ban stuff? Just doing it because?
IIRC most tournaments implement bans using an external client (e.g. heroesdraft) because TOs recognized that not having bans in a competitive moba is stupid.
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It's really typical blizzard.
They make a game and then think the competitive scene around it will just organically happen on its own.
Then they wonder why LoL is so much more popular than their games.
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Eh we've seen that having your company too close to the scene can also be negative, but I do agree that you should support a scene if it shows up in it. Blizzard doesn't want to turn into the valve who let tf2 just slip away from them because they didn't care. Then again Riot doesn't care about replays so who knows. I think it's a matter of balance knowing when to support so a scene grows but not to manhandle every aspect of it to the point of attempts at trying to control pro players games played on 3rd party sites. Ya know?
Also, can't stop playing d3, send help. Or coffee.
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On September 07 2015 11:19 Ketara wrote:
They make a game and then think the competitive scene around it will just organically happen on its own.
This is the opposite of what's happening though. It's not that Blizzard made a game and are expecting a competitive scene to grow on it's own. Rather, they're trying to forcefully grow a competitive scene out of a game that doesn't have the featureset to make it ready for competitive play yet (such as not having bans in the game despite literally every major tournament having bans and using an external client to implement them).
On September 07 2015 11:19 Ketara wrote:
Then they wonder why LoL is so much more popular than their games.
I think that's a false correlation. It's more likely that a game that's already popular builds a strong competitive scene than the other way round.
If you're growing a competitive scene to make your game popular, then you're doing it wrong. If your game becomes the most popular game in the world, then people will find ways to make it competitive.
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I have no problem with a company supporting the competitive scene. heck that not happening is probably what hurt Halo so much from reach through Halo 4. That being said forcing a competitive scene doesn't seem like a great idea either if it's not there. so I guess I see both points.
On September 07 2015 11:24 Parnage wrote:
Eh we've seen that having your company too close to the scene can also be negative, but I do agree that you should support a scene if it shows up in it. Blizzard doesn't want to turn into the valve who let tf2 just slip away from them because they didn't care. Then again Riot doesn't care about replays so who knows. I think it's a matter of balance knowing when to support so a scene grows but not to manhandle every aspect of it to the point of attempts at trying to control pro players games played on 3rd party sites. Ya know?
Also, can't stop playing d3, send help. Or coffee.
I played diablo 3 for about a month after it came out then never touched it again. don't know why
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I used to be adamantly against the idea of the company propping up the competitive scene, but I've come around since basically every company developing a competitive game does it now.
The best way to help the competitive scene, though, is 1) to make the game good and to make it popular, and 2) developing features which competitive players need to play the competitive game. Direct support to the competitive scene is all well and good as long as it never overshadows these two points because while anyone in the community can do promotion and publicity, only the developer can actually do these 2 things.
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On September 07 2015 11:27 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:I have no problem with a company supporting the competitive scene. heck that not happening is probably what hurt Halo so much from reach through Halo 4. That being said forcing a competitive scene doesn't seem like a great idea either if it's not there. so I guess I see both points. Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:24 Parnage wrote:
Eh we've seen that having your company too close to the scene can also be negative, but I do agree that you should support a scene if it shows up in it. Blizzard doesn't want to turn into the valve who let tf2 just slip away from them because they didn't care. Then again Riot doesn't care about replays so who knows. I think it's a matter of balance knowing when to support so a scene grows but not to manhandle every aspect of it to the point of attempts at trying to control pro players games played on 3rd party sites. Ya know?
Also, can't stop playing d3, send help. Or coffee. I played diablo 3 for about a month after it came out then never touched it again. don't know why
Diablo 3 is still fun, but the problem with franchise games that change completely is that you still dream of playing d2 instead.
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On September 07 2015 11:24 Parnage wrote:
Eh we've seen that having your company too close to the scene can also be negative, but I do agree that you should support a scene if it shows up in it. Blizzard doesn't want to turn into the valve who let tf2 just slip away from them because they didn't care. Then again Riot doesn't care about replays so who knows. I think it's a matter of balance knowing when to support so a scene grows but not to manhandle every aspect of it to the point of attempts at trying to control pro players games played on 3rd party sites. Ya know?
Also, can't stop playing d3, send help. Or coffee.
It IS a lot of fun lately.
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On September 07 2015 11:19 Ketara wrote:
They make a game and then think the competitive scene around it will just organically happen on its own.
Then they wonder why LoL is so much more popular than their games.
Except that's exactly what happened to League. I think trying to make your game "an esport" is a shit idea.
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Well, Riot did a lot to try and support the budding competitive scene, but they also always had their priorities clear in that their #1 priority was always making the game more appealing and accessible to grow the playerbase. They only went all-out on building the competitive scene once League had already solidified itself as the most popular game in the world by a significant margin.
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The important part is that the demand for competitive league was huge. I mean, they had to start putting in half-assed features like spectator that was just a champion with a spell that reveals entire map because before they were happy with ammount of champions and balance etc. people already wanted to play tournaments. Weren't first big tournaments even before soloq? Wasn't League meant to be "the casual moba" in comparison to HoN and Dota? (Although maybe it was just it's reputation when I started playing).
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I think emperor thaurassian is my least favorite HS card.
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On September 07 2015 11:31 TheYango wrote:
I used to be adamantly against the idea of the company propping up the competitive scene, but I've come around since basically every company developing a competitive game does it now.
The best way to help the competitive scene, though, is 1) to make the game good and to make it popular, and 2) developing features which competitive players need to play the competitive game. Direct support to the competitive scene is all well and good as long as it never overshadows these two points because while anyone in the community can do promotion and publicity, only the developer can actually do these 2 things.
I remember back in the day I thought Riot was unfairly inflating League tournaments' stream numbers by embedding streams into the client.
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On September 07 2015 11:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:31 TheYango wrote:
I used to be adamantly against the idea of the company propping up the competitive scene, but I've come around since basically every company developing a competitive game does it now.
The best way to help the competitive scene, though, is 1) to make the game good and to make it popular, and 2) developing features which competitive players need to play the competitive game. Direct support to the competitive scene is all well and good as long as it never overshadows these two points because while anyone in the community can do promotion and publicity, only the developer can actually do these 2 things. I remember back in the day I thought Riot was unfairly inflating League tournaments' stream numbers by embedding streams into the client.
Hey at least you realized your mistake, I still think there's a number of folks around who actually believe this.
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On September 07 2015 11:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:31 TheYango wrote:
I used to be adamantly against the idea of the company propping up the competitive scene, but I've come around since basically every company developing a competitive game does it now.
The best way to help the competitive scene, though, is 1) to make the game good and to make it popular, and 2) developing features which competitive players need to play the competitive game. Direct support to the competitive scene is all well and good as long as it never overshadows these two points because while anyone in the community can do promotion and publicity, only the developer can actually do these 2 things. I remember back in the day I thought Riot was unfairly inflating League tournaments' stream numbers by embedding streams into the client.
That's because people from other games couldn't understand how LoL was pulling in so many viewers. It was a weird bit of misinformation that still shows up sometimes.
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EPT
