EPTConsidering past seasons, it should be a TvZ. Potential for being an amazing match.
[GSL 2019] Season 3 - Quarterfinals Day 2 - Page 17
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
Considering past seasons, it should be a TvZ. Potential for being an amazing match. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10026 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 11 2019 23:24 DSh1 wrote: Well. That would explain why he was also strong in pro league. Nevertheless. To win multiple championship you still have to have high base skill even if you prepare very well. Maru is very similar to Fantasy in Brood War. Many argue if Oov wasn't there to feed him builds when preparing for his opponents, that he would have never had the success he did. The bottom line is that he has the skill, like Maru, to dominate and that little extra bump regarding build orders is just a small part of both their success. I have often thought about the fairness of having players help each other between games. It sucks that Ragnarok had no one to help advise him. I think if we ban between game conversation, then they would just pretend to go to the bathroom and just have someone like Rogue or SoS pass them strategies between stalls. | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On September 11 2019 21:20 BerserkSword wrote: i think it's obvious at this point lmao excels at preparation tournaments disappears at weekenders is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team Maru's history with weekenders isn't totally stellar, but to say that he "disappears" at them is maybe painting with too broad a brush. His IEM finals with Life back in the day was incredible. He won WESG last year and had some other respectable weekender results, though he also bombed out of others pretty hard. You can say he's not consistent with weekenders and that's disappointing, but if he disappears at some of them, he doesn't ALWAYS do so. Also, to say that he's decimated by sOs is a bit of an oversimplification. Maru-sOs in 2018 was a really interesting "rivalry" and Maru came out ahead at several points. He only looked like a clown at Blizzcon, really. No doubt he's helped a lot by his team and I don't mean to say that his performance in prep tournaments has been the same as his performance in weekenders (of course not). But I'm not sure it's as extreme as the surface-level optics make it seem. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot). It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
In the final against Classic he had basically no unique builds, he just reacted to whatever Classic was trying to pull. In the TY final he did the same proxies every game which didn't really accomplish much. Jin air mastermind strategy "just outmacro and multitask them to 10 minutes until you win". Maru is lucky he has that advice when other players don't. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:08 BisuDagger wrote: Maru is very similar to Fantasy in Brood War. Many argue if Oov wasn't there to feed him builds when preparing for his opponents, that he would have never had the success he did. What makes you think it's jin air and not Maru himself making the builds though? Even when Maru was on prime he managed to 4-0 Inno with cheesy counter builds. He also usually beats his fellow jin air players in GSL as well. He only loses to them in weekenders were preparation isn't much of a factor. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot). It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything. Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:40 HolydaKing wrote: If proxys by Maru don't outright kill the opponent, they are not fails. They are still good openings. Being able to transition out into a playable game doesn't mean the proxy didn't fail its objective. It certainly rubs out the idea that Maru is getting build order wins, or even build order advantages most of the time. The idea that Maru only wins due to preparation is just stupid. If he was getting build order wins, or winning with tailored strategies all the time, then sure. But he isn't, he literally just wins by playing twice as good as his opponents. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:31 neutralrobot wrote: Maru's history with weekenders isn't totally stellar, but to say that he "disappears" at them is maybe painting with too broad a brush. His IEM finals with Life back in the day was incredible. The IEM might have been more on Life being extremely hangover during the series. | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:44 Xain0n wrote: Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be? He participates in very few weekenders so of course he won't win a lot of them. Plus no terran dominated weekenders in LotV anyways afaik? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:44 Xain0n wrote: Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be? That's how probabilities work my dude, if you want to span some grand narrative there go for it, but it's still ridiculous. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
The other Horsemen in LoTV, for comparison: Byun won BlizzCon and World Cyber Arena in 2016, TY won Katowice and WESG consecutively in 2017 while Inno, in the span of three years, won IEM Gyeonggi, GSL vs The World and WESG(also GPL, but I'm still wondering how can it be considered a Premier on Liquipedia). Also, Sc2 players aren't random events, they have distinct playstyles and certain weaknesses; Maru evidently struggles more with weekenders. It's true that he doesn't especially rely on single builds but he seems to thrive when he has more time to prepare for a specific opponent/race. | ||
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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
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yhellothere12
46 Posts
On September 12 2019 01:07 Xain0n wrote: If I counted correctly, Maru participated in 27 "weekenders" during the course of his nine years career, and won one of them. So few, so few... The other Horsemen in LoTV, for comparison: Byun won BlizzCon and World Cyber Arena in 2016, TY won Katowice and WESG consecutively in 2017 while Inno, in the span of three years, won IEM Gyeonggi, GSL vs The World and WESG(also GPL, but I'm still wondering how can it be considered a Premier on Liquipedia). Also, Sc2 players aren't random events, they have distinct playstyles and certain weaknesses; Maru evidently struggles more with weekenders. It's true that he doesn't especially rely on single builds but he seems to thrive when he has more time to prepare for a specific opponent/race. While I mostly agree with your post, I think it's important to note that simply counting the number of 1st places shouldn't be the primary argument used for whether a player is good or bad at a particular format. In this case we'd be saying soo is a mediocre player and rather terrible at GSL. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Why that is exactly is up for debate, and the grand narrative that he needs prep is rather so-so as far as i can tell. I already gave reasons why. Maru is consistently at the top of the korean ladder as well, that's another thing to consider, ladder play is purely based on what people would consider the base skill level. You asked how it can be that he loses to them at weekenders while he beats them every time in code s (i guess since he won code s), well he played stats and sOs once each in code s for example. That is what i meant with probabilities, your sample size is ridiculously low to make any such statements. But sure go ahead and keep on perpetuating this "maru sucks at weekenders because there is no prep" stuff if you want. Funnily enough he lost to stats in these "weekenders" in the first round each, the round where you could prep. Oh NO! edit: one more thing to consider, because you compare weekend vs starleague success over his whole career while most of the starleague success was recently, it also paints a really flawed picture, especially because you only care about winning. Before he dominated starleagues he won 2 while having other good showings in them, plus having good showings at weekenders here and there as well, like ro4 finishes. You are arguing extremely disingenuously, not that i am surprised! | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 12 2019 01:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: Noone is denying that he has less success in weekenders, that statement is obvious. Why that is exactly is up for debate, and the grand narrative that he needs prep is rather so-so as far as i can tell. I already gave reasons why. Maru is consistently at the top of the korean ladder as well, that's another thing to consider, ladder play is purely based on what people would consider the base skill level. You asked how it can be that he loses to them at weekenders while he beats them every time in code s (i guess since he won code s), well he played stats and sOs once each in code s for example. That is what i meant with probabilities, your sample size is ridiculously low to make any such statements. But sure go ahead and keep on perpetuating this "maru sucks at weekenders because there is no prep" stuff if you want. Funnily enough he lost to stats in these "weekenders" in the first round each, the round where you could prep. Oh NO! I never said Maru sucks at weekender because he can't prepare for them, he has collected a fair amount of placements during all these years; It's that he is the most successful player ever in korean starleagues and his accomplishements in weekenders are definitely not up to par. I do not doubt, as well, Maru's ability to play at the highest level just making use of his stellar mechanics(which are in fact his main strength). I am told Maru doesn't care for GSL vs The World and Super Tournament(forfeit your spot if you don't wanna play, JAGW gives you a salary and you are already the highest earning player in Sc2...); in any of case, even if Maru winning or losing against a single player in a certain tournament might be a case, this happens every time with every(challenging) opponent in a precise direction: Maru wins in Code S playoffs and loses in weekenders. It's hard to think a trend doesn't exist. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On September 12 2019 00:37 Fango wrote: Lol how Maru's initial build orders mostly failed here and he won by just out playing ragnarok in the lategame. Yet people still chalk up his wins to preparation. Most of the time his build orders don't even give him advantage in games. Yeah, that double proxy rax in game 4, if my memory is right, that was scouted by Ragnarok was a build order failure. Maru had to play from behind but he still came out with the win. I would say Maru, Byun, and Life had the top 3 micro in SC2 in their prime. So Maru is definitely up there with the best micro in all of SC2's history. And today, Maru's multitasking was just nuts, especially in game 4 where he was dropping everywhere and also picking up his marines, etc. He just out multitasked Ragnarok. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On a side note, Inno is now officially out of BlizzCon: a Super Tournament title and Classic's enlistement combined wouldn't save him. | ||
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