[WCS] Global Finals 2013 Day 1 - Page 318

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Let's cut down on the excessive hashtagging in this thread. This isn't Twitter.

Please don't "500!" on page 500 (and similar comments)

non twitch stream: http://eu.battle.net/blizzcon/en/live-stream/

Shellshock

United States97277 Posts

November 08 2013 12:59 GMT

#6341

Mvp should just switch to protoss

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:00 GMT

#6342

On November 08 2013 21:59 Shellshock wrote:
Mvp should just switch to protoss

Make Void Rays

LimitSEA

Australia9580 Posts

November 08 2013 13:05 GMT

#6343

On November 08 2013 21:54 bourne117 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 08 2013 21:47 LimitSEA wrote:

On November 08 2013 21:37 bourne117 wrote:

On November 08 2013 21:26 LimitSEA wrote:

On November 08 2013 21:15 bourne117 wrote:

On November 08 2013 21:06 LimitSEA wrote:

On November 08 2013 21:02 bourne117 wrote:

On November 08 2013 20:54 LimitSEA wrote:

On November 08 2013 20:49 bourne117 wrote:

On November 08 2013 20:46 LimitSEA wrote:
[quote]
It wasn't a secret I believed in him when he beat Naniwa, PartinG and Squirtle in 2012, or when he almost took the Season 1 Global Finals this year ('cause let's face it, he would've wrecked sOs the way he looked vs Innovation). A Champion's a Champion, no matter what. He's just got that class, mang.

Because he looked good in TvT he must be good in TvP? Innovation has godlike TvZ so his TvT must be amazing also right? Oh whats that his TvT has actually held him back a lot in recent tournaments you don't say. What Protoss did MVP defeat of even semi notoriety that suggests he could do the same vs sOs?

Did you watch sOs vs Innovation? It wasn't so much a case of Innovation's TvP being particularly good as it was sOs looking really, really bad. He choked on the main stage, in the Grand Finals, harder than Innovation did in WCS KR finals. Mvp's a veteran of finals and big stages, so I have no doubt he'd have taken the finals. Perhaps not as impressively as Innovation did, but I can't see sOs winning it the way he looked those games.

Also, Innovation's TvT has held him back in recent tournaments, but it wasn't notably weaker than his other match ups in Season 1. It was only after Hellbat nerfs that he became significantly weaker in TvT.

I was talking about Innovation now to show that success in one match up doesn't translate to another. And the difference between Innovation and MVP in TvP is pretty huge. And btw sOs took out Bomber, Taeja, and MKP in his WCS season 1 run. But MVP would have beaten him when he couldn't even beat Alicia? You honestly believe that? You don't think maybe the nerves for sOs were partially because he was up against the undoubted best player in the world?

And seeing a player of Innovation's caliber beaten by someone as known for winning titles as Mvp wouldn't give him nerves? And no, I don't think his nerves were because he was up against the undoubted best player in the world. I think he choked because he'd never been in a match that important, never played a finals of that prestige, and couldn't handle the pressure. The Terran's sOs beat before the finals are completely irrelevant when compared with that kind of pressure. And more than that, Mvp losing to Alicia is also completely irrelevant. He's the King of bo5+ series. You don't think Mvp would have a significantly better chance of winning in a bo7 series over a choking protoss than he would in a bo3?

I think you are greatly exaggerating how bad sOs was. Innovation at this point was like a machine. Any mistake you made you would destroy you for it. Plus sOs had just seen Soulkey try and prepare for this monster in the Code S finals. He knew very well how scary he was. Then you have MVP who had been getting slightly weaker and weaker each season. His TvT though was really the only matchup that didnt go away as quickly which is what actually happens most of the time. sOs beating players like Taeja or Bomber is pretty fucking important. Did you not see what they did the very next season. They were basically the two best terrans in season 2 along with Polt and Maru. Put MVP could totally take out sOs because its a bo7 right? Did that help mvp against life? No. At a certain point when you are MVP your wrists start to deteriorate and you start to lose that skill you once had. mvp was able to still play so great for so long because in part he had great decision making and build order choices but at a certain point the better player just wins and bottom line sOs was and is the better player TODAY and during the WCS season 1 like it or not. If they played 1000 games sOs would easily win the majority of them.

His TvT wasn't the only match up he was good in, he was also pretty fucking good in TvZ, check his finals vs Stephano. And before you say it, I'm aware that skill in TvZ =/= skill in TvP. And looking at what players did in Season 2 means next to nothing when we're talking about Season 1.What did Innovation do in Season 2 and Season 3? His results got progressively worse, as did pretty much everyone who isn't Soulkey or Polt.

And yes. Judging by Mvp's form - ignoring match ups for the moment - sOs' performance in the finals, and Mvp's history with bo7's, I'd say it being a bo7 would make a difference. Just as it did vs Life. Life was so ridiculously better than everyone in ZvT when Mvp lost to him, and somehow Mvp still managed to take it down to the wire, only really losing due to his degrading mechanics and a questionable move out. Ignoring his skill in mind games and build order choice in longer series would be silly when considering a hypothetical match up like this.

I won't deny that sOs may take more games in a bo1000, but that's just silly to even think about. He's almost certainly the better player as far as mechanics goes, that kind of comes with having no wrists. But Mvp is almost certainly the better player as far as build order choice and decision making goes.

That is the thing though. You are ignoring quite when you say ignore the match up. Mvp never showed good TvP in Hots. If you can show me a single top 10 or even top 20 toss he beat then please let me know. sOs again beat Bomber and Taeja. And you can say well they weren't good till Season 2 but maybe they didn't do as well initially because someone like sOs knocked them out. Both of those players still made the ro16 of the GSL and bomber made the ro8. Are you really going to say that beating bomber doesn't mean he is strong enough in the match up to beat Mvp. And what you say about life is my point. Mvp still had good TvZ as you said. His TvP is his weakest match up by his own admission. (He has said in the past his wrist issues have made ghost vs HT very very hard) and you can see this when he has really no noticeable TvP wins in the past. It would be like the Life series but slightly worse because Mvp is in a weaker matchup. Has no preparation and is overall slightly weaker.

I can't believe how in depth we're getting here for a hypothetical situation, but my fault. I get that ignoring the match up is a big deal, and in a bo3 or even maybe a bo5 that wasn't the finals themselves, I would agree 100% that Mvp wouldn't have beaten sOs. sOs looked great that season. But it's the finals, with a lot on the line and a lot of pressure, in a bo7. The fact remains, sOs choked horribly vs Innovation in those bo7 finals, Mvp is a beast in bo7's, and his form looked good enough that I'd back him.

It really comes down to whether you think Mvp's TvP was bad enough vs sOs' PvT to override choking and Mvp's mind. I, personally, do not. It's clear you think sOs' mechanics and PvT are good enough compared to Mvp's TvP and degraded mechanics that he'd win regardless, but that's where I disagree. And really, that's just subjective. I won't draw this out any further since it's just a hypothetical situation and I don't want things to get too heated.

lol I mean the match up kind of matters a little bit. And yeah this whole argument has gotten pretty out of hand. Though I would just like add one final thing that I don't think sOs chocked as hard as you make it out to be. He might have made some mistakes but I don't think things go so horribly if he isn't playing against someone like Innovation. With Innovation any mistake can cost him the game. Mvp is good but he wasn't close to that level in TvP at this point. Ok that's it I'm done with this also. Good day to you sir and I hope you enjoy the super sick tournament coming up as much as I certainly will.

Yeah I agree the match up matters, I just don't think he was quite terrible enough for it to make as huge a difference as everything else listed earlier. Maybe it was worse because Innovation could exploit his mistakes better than Mvp could have, but I guess there's no way to know without the series having been played aha. And you too, I'll have to be up late for this but can't wait. :D Gonna be a good weekend.

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:06 GMT

#6344

Less than 6 hours!

goody153

44309 Posts

November 08 2013 13:07 GMT

#6345

10 page increment per hour ..

mulambo999

Netherlands10 Posts

November 08 2013 13:08 GMT

#6346

On November 08 2013 22:06 Dinotramp wrote:
Less than 6 hours!

But will it be enough to reach 500 pages ;o?

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:08 GMT

#6347

On November 08 2013 22:07 goody153 wrote:
10 page increment per hour ..

When it gets to 2 hours, it'll be a lot more than that

Shellshock

United States97277 Posts

November 08 2013 13:08 GMT

#6348

On November 08 2013 22:08 mulambo999 wrote:

Show nested quote +

But will it be enough to reach 500 pages ;o?

games are really further away than that

ElvenAshwin

169 Posts

November 08 2013 13:09 GMT

#6349

Only 318? I'm disappointed. A few hours left, will get up at 8am (for me) to watch Jaedong vs Mvp ^.^ . Couldnt care less for the other matches save Maru's games but his are a bit too early for me (ill watch his semi's games)

Also am i the only one who actually admires Jaedong's playstyle (maybe its cos im zerg) over his "story" or whatever. He could have won every tourney this or never made it past r016 in any of them, but i just love his actually playstyle.

Maru is fucking epic tho, with his micro and comeback skills. Seriously, best terran imho. He might've been crushed by Dear, but for fucks sake, he's *dear*, and in game 3 Maru put up a stellar game!

Maru games are always epic to watch, more than Jaedong's. I never watched BW (joined sc in may or something this year) but Jaedong vs someone was the first sc2 match I ever saw ( was it stardust?) And i loved those games, so when i saw him pop up in WCS America I was like, "oh this is pretty sweet". Then AGAIN in the finals, after which i became a fan. Really i dont care about him breaking the Kong thing. I'd love a Jaedong win, but if JD beats Dear then JD vs Maru will be a possibility, and bloody hell, both players known for impressive control. Gonna be epic.

Aunvilgod

2653 Posts

November 08 2013 13:09 GMT

#6350

Which player gives you the hardest boner when watching? For me its def Maru with his triple attacks everywhere. Dear vs Maru gave me an orgasm.

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:09 GMT

#6351

On November 08 2013 22:09 ElvenAshwin wrote:
Only 318? I'm disappointed. A few hours left, will get up at 8am (for me) to watch Jaedong vs Mvp ^.^ . Couldnt care less for the other matches save Maru's games but his are a bit too early for me (ill watch his semi's games)

Also am i the only one who actually admires Jaedong's playstyle (maybe its cos im zerg) over his "story" or whatever. He could have won every tourney this or never made it past r016 in any of them, but i just love his actually playstyle.

Maru is fucking epic tho, with his micro and comeback skills. Seriously, best terran imho. He might've been crushed by Dear, but for fucks sake, he's *dear*, and in game 3 Maru put up a stellar game!

Maru games are always epic to watch, more than Jaedong's. I never watched BW (joined sc in may or something this year) but Jaedong vs someone was the first sc2 match I ever saw ( was it stardust?) And i loved those games, so when i saw him pop up in WCS America I was like, "oh this is pretty sweet". Then AGAIN in the finals, after which i became a fan. Really i dont care about him breaking the Kong thing. I'd love a Jaedong win, but if JD beats Dear then JD vs Maru will be a possibility, and bloody hell, both players known for impressive control. Gonna be epic.

Can't stand Jaedong's playstyle to be honest. If he wasn't on EG then I'd like his storyline a lot more too.

Olli

Austria24422 Posts

November 08 2013 13:09 GMT

#6352

Finally on my way home, jorge jesus christus

SkullZ9

Belgium2048 Posts

November 08 2013 13:11 GMT

#6353

For you, what would be your worst scenario and your dream scenario for the finals ?
For me :
Worst finals : Alive vs Duckdeok
Best finals : Naniwa vs Mvp

eurTsItniH

887 Posts

November 08 2013 13:11 GMT

#6354

Only 5 hours and 48 mins left! How many pages do you think we will reach?

Shellshock

United States97277 Posts

November 08 2013 13:12 GMT

#6355

worst final naniwa vs mvp
best final alive vs duckdeok

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:12 GMT

#6356

On November 08 2013 22:11 SkullZ9 wrote:
For you, what would be your worst scenario and your dream scenario for the finals ?
For me :
Worst finals : Alive vs Duckdeok
Best finals : Naniwa vs Mvp

Or Naniwa vs Jaedong as a repeat of Dreamhack

VisonKai

United States2203 Posts

November 08 2013 13:12 GMT

#6357

On November 08 2013 22:11 eurTsItniH wrote:
Only 5 hours and 48 mins left! How many pages do you think we will reach?

400 before games start is 100% doable.

Hype.

Olli

Austria24422 Posts

November 08 2013 13:12 GMT

#6358

Worst scenario HerO loses 0-3, finale loses 0-3, Maru/bomber finals

Best scenario HerO taeja finals 4-0

Dinotramp

Nauru2871 Posts

November 08 2013 13:13 GMT

#6359

On November 08 2013 22:12 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Worst scenario HerO loses 0-3, finale loses 0-3, Maru/bomber finals

Best scenario HerO taeja finals 4-0

I sense a tinge of sarcasm

Fhiz

361 Posts

November 08 2013 13:13 GMT

#6360

so. fucking. hyped.

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