Both players opened up 1 rax CC into double gas and 1 fact, and also going reactor hellion. At this point Last adds some rax while flash goes for a quick 3rd CC. Last with a bunch of marines, medivacs, and hellions pushes but flash pulls scv's and easily defends. From here they both get to 3 base and transition to mech. Then it's turn for flash to push, and he attacks the main with a raven and 5 vikings, while sitting outside the nat of Last with his main army. He leaves the vikings in the main while the Raven moves to the nat and harasses with a turret, and then checks for the 3rd base. Flash then sieges up right outside the nat and harasses the 3rd with hellions trying to force an engagement. Last obliges and flash is ready with all of his forces. GG from Last.
2. Open Network Stream in VLC Player (under Media)
3. Click on the Network tab, paste the link and hit play. If you encounter an error keep tying to initialize the stream, it may take a few tries depending on when you try to connect. Also note that it is best to try to connect a few minutes before the broadcast to get a working and/or smooth stream.
4. Enjoy the awesomeness of Kim Carrier, Jun Yong Joon, and Um Jae Kyung. :D
In their last meeting, Flash won over Last in the Dual Tournament. Early game Flash tried to bunker rush Last for going 14cc LOL but it didn't work. Last held a slight edge economic wise but Flash kept up by double expanding. Naturally Last stayed in his natural and was overpowered by Flashs imbalanced economy. Flash went mech, Last went marine tank, they met and fell in love. Flash told Last it wasn't meant to be and Last fell apart, heartbroken by Flashs much bigger army. submitted by DiMano
On September 21 2012 21:28 Fragile51 wrote: Tough shit for both players that they have OSL the day after their code A games :< Hope it's gonna be a good series!
On September 21 2012 21:58 GolemMadness wrote: Flash has lost 0 games since Proleague ended. HE HAS GOT THIS.
Aside from the games he lost FLASH HAS 100% WINRATE HE IS LITERALLY GOD
Kidding aside, he has been looking really good as of late. There's no kespa player i want to see succeed more then flash but i really didn't think it was going to happen this fast.
On September 21 2012 23:20 themask4f wrote: guys..last is good at sc2, just saying
I think it's more of a case that everyone is cheering for flash because they know how close it could be haha :p Last is really really good and Flash is gonna have his work cut out for him.
On September 21 2012 23:39 FakeDeath wrote: Last is really looking good in TvT. This guy did beat Reality and Fantasy.
I say it is even with the slight edge going to Flash.
Not sure how Last is doing in proleague or was doing, but Fantasy kind of donated that last game to him and wasn't Last beforehand 3 losses down without winning any games?
Little fun fact, as flash went on his streak of undefeated 2 seasons ago last went on a similar one making every terran and protoss his bitch for a while. Then it turned out he was terrible at TvZ and he kind of dropped off after initial hype.
On September 22 2012 03:40 CeriseCherries wrote: Flash will win
I agree, flash is just learning incredibly quickly and with the amount of time he had to prepare against last (even though last had the same amount), I really don't see him doing anything else than surgically dismantling his entire gameplay
I'd really love to see rain vs flash, that's going to be incredible
On September 22 2012 03:40 CeriseCherries wrote: Flash will win
I agree, flash is just learning incredibly quickly and with the amount of time he had to prepare against last (even though last had the same amount), I really don't see him doing anything else than surgically dismantling his entire gameplay
I'd really love to see rain vs flash, that's going to be incredible
Yes, this is a guy who won OSL when he is 15, he doesn't need much time to be on top.
Flash is going to lay waste to Last. And then win OSL. And then win GSL. And then somehow win the Blizzard World Championship. Then repeat it all the next go-around.
The OSL VOD system on Twitch is complete trash right now. No spoilers placeholders, every game is a separate VOD! Who can we contact to get this fixed, they just ruined Parting vs. Rain for me by game number 2.
On September 26 2012 06:13 Kubricks wrote: Flash is going to lay waste to Last. And then win OSL. And then win GSL. And then somehow win the Blizzard World Championship. Then repeat it all the next go-around.
On September 26 2012 06:13 Kubricks wrote: Flash is going to lay waste to Last. And then win OSL. And then win GSL. And then somehow win the Blizzard World Championship. Then repeat it all the next go-around.
posts like these are annoying
Hahaha well you can't blame people for loving the prodigy of RTS, that is what Lee Young Ho is.
On September 26 2012 06:13 Kubricks wrote: Flash is going to lay waste to Last. And then win OSL. And then win GSL. And then somehow win the Blizzard World Championship. Then repeat it all the next go-around.
posts like these are annoying
Hahaha well you can't blame people for loving the prodigy of RTS, that is what Lee Young Ho is.
On September 26 2012 09:20 SilSol wrote: yeah if flash is as good as everyone says he might just stomp this
No, he's actually terrible, he's like the worst player ever in BW and everybody that is transferring over from the BW section is just hyping him because he has a really cool name.
On September 26 2012 09:20 SilSol wrote: yeah if flash is as good as everyone says he might just stomp this
No, he's actually terrible, he's like the worst player ever in BW and everybody that is transferring over from the BW section is just hyping him because he has a really cool name.
for a minute I thought you were serious, then I laughed.
Time to get my sleep before the games today, going to wake up nice and early and get myself ready for some Flash dominance <3
Here's hoping for a lot of mech vs mech as it seems to be used a lot in Proleague TvT so far.
Hoping for Flash. Flash/Rain would be an epic series and would have one big named player in the final. And yes, Rain has become a big name player with how hard he's rocked the SC2 world. He's pretty much filling in the role of Bisu while Bisu stops sucking.
Hopefully Flash and Last's shaky performances last night were because they spent all their time practicing for each other in today's matches. Also hoping the MLGvProleague thing didn't affect their preparation too much.
Is there any way to make the Korean stream lower quality or anything? English stream is laggy as hell, and Korea one needs to buffer every couple of seconds for me. -_-;
On September 26 2012 19:50 ydeer1993 wrote: overview of G1? , i missed it
both players opened up 1 rax CC into double gas and 1 fact. Both going reactor hellion. At this point Last adds rax while flash goes for a quick 3rd CC. Last with a bunch of marines, medis and hellions pushes but flash pulls scv's and easily defends. From here they both get to 3 base and transition to mech. Then it's turn for flash to push, and he attacks the main with a raven and 5 vikings, while sitting outside the nat of Last with his main army. He leaves the vikings in the main while the Raven moves to the nat and harasses with a turret, and then checks for the 3rd base. Flash then sieges up right outside the nat and harasses the 3rd with hellions trying to force an engagement. Last obliges and flash is ready with all of his forces. GG from Last.
the trick with vlc streams is that to make sure to connect to the stream about 10 to 15 minutes before the matches start. always works flawlessly when I do this and disastrous if Im late.
On September 26 2012 19:57 iLoveKT wrote: the trick with vlc streams is that to make sure to connect to the stream about 10 to 15 minutes before the matches start. always works flawlessly when I do this and disastrous if Im late.
On September 26 2012 19:57 iLoveKT wrote: the trick with vlc streams is that to make sure to connect to the stream about 10 to 15 minutes before the matches start. always works flawlessly when I do this and disastrous if Im late.
Yep, you need to start VLC before 15-20 mins before the game and it will work perfectly. For example, I just decided to restart VLC after the first game. Took me 20 tries to get it to work again LOL
Open VLC, go to Media -> Open network stream, then put this in as the URL.
Doesnt work for me... Keeps giving error message "cannot open path ... "
yea same for me t,t
AHHH!!! It works now! Just try over and over again, and eventually it will work. Did for me
Yeah, if you're connecting in the middle of the broadcast sometimes it's hard to find a seat. Just keep trying, you'll get through eventually and once you do no lag. Plus I think the Korean commentators are great.
One of the most exciting SC2 games I've ever watched. That stuff happens to me on ladder and I always lose as I react badly. Flash had Last's number there, damn his defense is so good!
How were the air upgrades in the final fight? Either way Last didn't control that very well, he clumped his vikings and they took lots of damage from the thor splash. Additionally, they did tank all the damage, which IMO the Battlecruisers should have done.
I think the opening was pretty smart, especially against mech style. However, Last should have followed it up with a standard game, not BCs. BCs cant be cost effective until you have enough geysers to incorporate Ravens in the mix for mass PDD and Seeker Missile to trash your opponent's Vikings.
On September 26 2012 20:17 HolydaKing wrote: How were the air upgrades in the final fight? Either way Last didn't control that very well, he clumped his vikings and they took lots of damage from the thor splash. Additionally, they did tank all the damage, which IMO the Battlecruisers should have done.
I think Flash had 1 attack and Last had no upgrades. Not 100% sure though.
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
Flash is beyond the mere mortal term of Bonjwa, he transcended past that long ago.
He is a god. It's the only explanation for his skill, he came from the heavens to teach me how to react to everything when playing.
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
The music they have playing during the marines teaching segmant was hilarious when they zoomed in on the off creep queen waddling along. It was hilarious how well it was timed.
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
Flash is beyond the mere mortal term of Bonjwa, he transcended past that long ago.
He is a god. It's the only explanation for his skill, he came from the heavens to teach me how to react to everything when playing.
On September 26 2012 20:24 Pasargadae wrote: So...I see Last with air superiority and getting BCs, switch to the other game, and Flash has won? Typical.
Flash made a bunch of starports after getting a money scan on the just finished fusion core.
He out produced air and even out upgraded the guy who was going skyterran. He reacted perfectly.
On September 26 2012 20:18 MantiZzl wrote: is flash the new zerg bonjwa???
he's already a literal bonjwa please respect the man I can't believe you would ever say something like this you should go back to Reddit where memes like this are acceptable but please do not lower the quality of posts here on TeamLiquid the premier StarCraft discussion forum thank you
On September 26 2012 20:24 Pasargadae wrote: So...I see Last with air superiority and getting BCs, switch to the other game, and Flash has won? Typical.
Well, Flash built 4 Starports (don't know if they had addons) and pumped vikings like a madman. He knew he can't beat BCs with Thors.
On September 26 2012 20:24 Pasargadae wrote: So...I see Last with air superiority and getting BCs, switch to the other game, and Flash has won? Typical.
Well, Flash built 4 Starports (don't know if they had addons) and pumped vikings like a madman. He knew he can't beat BCs with Thors.
3 had reactors and one was techlabbed still, he was producing 7 vikings at a time :p
On September 26 2012 20:24 Pasargadae wrote: So...I see Last with air superiority and getting BCs, switch to the other game, and Flash has won? Typical.
Well, Flash built 4 Starports (don't know if they had addons) and pumped vikings like a madman. He knew he can't beat BCs with Thors.
3 had reactors and one was techlabbed still, he was producing 7 vikings at a time :p
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
not really, going 7 bcs without complete air dominance is pretty newbie, it doesn't work, superior viking counts can kite forever.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
not really, going 7 bcs without complete air dominance is pretty newbie, it doesn't work, superior viking counts can kite forever.
Yeah, that's a pretty troll/uninformed/fanboy statement to make. Not sure which the case is, though.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
not really, going 7 bcs without complete air dominance is pretty newbie, it doesn't work, superior viking counts can kite forever.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
spoken like a true kespa fanboy who otherwise has little knowledge of sc2 =]
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Well damn Flash goes CC first... at least we'll get to see another game. Flash should by no means win this. He should have stuck with 1 rax before expo.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, I used to totally admire GSL/ESF players, never played/watched BW pros until now. Just an honest opinion.
On September 26 2012 20:35 Sinensis wrote: Well damn Flash goes CC first... at least we'll get to see another game. Flash should by no means win this. He should have stuck with 1 rax before expo.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, I used to totally admire GSL/ESF players, never played/watched BW pros until now. Just an honest opinion.
Did you see Effort get owned in Code A? Kespa players are catching up and some are on the same level. But your fanboyism is just too strong.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, I used to totally admire GSL/ESF players, never played/watched BW pros until now. Just an honest opinion.
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, I used to totally admire GSL/ESF players, never played/watched BW pros until now. Just an honest opinion.
Did you see Effort get owned in Code A? Kespa players are catching up and some are on the same level. But your fanboyism is just too strong.
Maybe your ESF fanboyism is too strong, too. No worries though, I used to be GSL/ESF fanboy so I completely understand.
Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
It keeps saying my input can't be opened even tough i just copy pasted it
On September 26 2012 20:29 sinigang wrote: These games by the top KeSPA players make ESF pros look like scrubs. Except for MVP maybe, who was formerly a promising KeSPA player.
that is just not true. take off your fanboy glasses true there are some kespa players right now, who have improved ALOT and can already compete with the best non kespa players. but you think that an MC , stephano , DRG, Taeja look like scurbs??? thats just a little over the edge my friend. its not for nothing that even KESPA zerg players say that they look alot at stephano to learn how to play the zerg.
Don't get me wrong, I used to totally admire GSL/ESF players, never played/watched BW pros until now. Just an honest opinion.
Did you see Effort get owned in Code A? Kespa players are catching up and some are on the same level. But your fanboyism is just too strong.
Maybe your ESF fanboyism is too strong, too. No worries though, I used to be GSL/ESF fanboy so I completely understand.
No. I didn't say KeSPA were scrubs while you did...
It would be like me saying Flash is a scrub for losing to basically to 1 cloak banshee while even eSF b-teamers wouldn't have.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
It keeps saying my input can't be opened even tough i just copy pasted it
Same problem here and the stream on auction's site is lagging too.
On September 26 2012 20:44 Asha` wrote: Surprised that got so many no votes, well thought out build and executed nicely with constant harass.
Failed to watch the game due to crappy internet, but the reaper didn't do anything, right? He only lost because he didn't expect the banshees, not because Last executed it nicely.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
On September 26 2012 20:44 Asha` wrote: Surprised that got so many no votes, well thought out build and executed nicely with constant harass.
Failed to watch the game due to crappy internet, but the reaper didn't do anything, right? He only lost because he didn't expect the banshees, not because Last executed it nicely.
nope. Typical flash goes CC first vs a proxy build and is fine.
On September 26 2012 20:44 Asha` wrote: Surprised that got so many no votes, well thought out build and executed nicely with constant harass.
Failed to watch the game due to crappy internet, but the reaper didn't do anything, right? He only lost because he didn't expect the banshees, not because Last executed it nicely.
nope. Typical flash goes CC first vs a proxy build and is fine.
On September 26 2012 20:44 Asha` wrote: Surprised that got so many no votes, well thought out build and executed nicely with constant harass.
Failed to watch the game due to crappy internet, but the reaper didn't do anything, right? He only lost because he didn't expect the banshees, not because Last executed it nicely.
reapers rarely do anything in the first place, it was a well thought out build every way I look at it, reapers are usually followed by either expands or drops, not by proxy cloak banshees, last did something very weak that allowed for flash to get comfortable, only to follow up with a sledgehammer to the head.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
On September 26 2012 20:43 Caphe wrote: Want to win against Flash? Make INVISIBLE units . For people that got lag on Twtich, just use the Korean VLC link in the OP. My internet is shit and i am having no lag whatsoever on VLC.
Ooops, I though Flash was going for the timing push. He lost the timing now and this looks bad for Flash, Last is on 3 bases already while Flash is just sitting his ass at home.
Download VLC. http://hd.ognp2p.gscdn.com/ognsdlive Post this in the ´open network stream´ and keep pressing play until it works. Took a few tries but it´s much better. And Kim for the Win ;3
Flash's better position mean nothing since there is no high ground advantage in SC2. But Last deserve the win though, he expands and marco very good. He was at 5 bases while Flash was sitting at 3.
On September 26 2012 21:05 Caphe wrote: Flash's better position mean nothing since there is no high ground advantage in SC2. But Last deserve the win though, he expands and marco very good. He was at 5 bases while Flash was sitting at 3.
Actually there was on that position. Last couldn't get view on Flash's tanks without scanning or running up the ramp.
On September 26 2012 21:05 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: What the f*** happened? I was sure Flash was gonna win 3:0 then comeback and it's comeback of a century !
nah its jsut sc2 randomness, wehereas anyone can beat anyone
On September 26 2012 21:05 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: What the f*** happened? I was sure Flash was gonna win 3:0 then comeback and it's comeback of a century !
nah its jsut sc2 randomness, wehereas anyone can beat anyone
right
nothing to do with last taking a win fair and square
On September 26 2012 21:05 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: What the f*** happened? I was sure Flash was gonna win 3:0 then comeback and it's comeback of a century !
nah its jsut sc2 randomness, wehereas anyone can beat anyone
I seriously can't watch the stream because of massive eye strain with this format. Please let it be 240p but widescreen! Is 720p any better? Seems to be fixed now, maybe on my end.
On September 26 2012 21:05 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: What the f*** happened? I was sure Flash was gonna win 3:0 then comeback and it's comeback of a century !
nah its jsut sc2 randomness, wehereas anyone can beat anyone
On September 26 2012 21:05 Caphe wrote: Flash's better position mean nothing since there is no high ground advantage in SC2. But Last deserve the win though, he expands and marco very good. He was at 5 bases while Flash was sitting at 3.
Actually there was on that position. Last couldn't get view on Flash's tanks without scanning or running up the ramp.
Thats not what I mean, since you are terran and has 4 CC, scan is not a problem. What I meant is you can't miss even if you are on the low ground.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
On September 26 2012 21:19 hugman wrote: Just went to get a cup of tea and when I come back it's over what happened?
Flash tried to move out with a smallish hellion tank force while harassing with vikings in the main.
Last had a much punchier army though having mixed in a couple of Thors, they engaged unsieged in the middle of the mapo and Last crushed him and proceeded to just march into his nat while dealing with the harass back home with rallied units.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Mech vs Mech long games are great, miles better than marinetank.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Broodwar TvT was amazing to watch... :x so many turnarounds were possible. Try to turnaround a TvT when you are behind in Starcraft 2, nearly impossible.
On September 26 2012 21:21 HolydaKing wrote: Well, i hope Last doesn't get hated on now... He did beat Flash afterall. Coming back after a 2-0 vs Flash is amazing.
I came home with 2-0 in Flash's favour only to see him wipe three times. (Two were just better games from Last) How were the first two? Was Last just the better player today or were the first two clearly in Flash's favour throughout the games?
ok if you think about flash was pretty dead either way, maybe he had a small chance with some perfect scv micro but last was gonna hit too strong a timing with that 4 fact, maybe this way he doesnt look so bad.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Broodwar TvT was amazing to watch... :x so many turnarounds were possible. Try to turnaround a TvT when you are behind in Starcraft 2, nearly impossible.
???Its THE matchup in sc2 that allows for comebacks, if tvt doesn't allow for comebacks I have no clue what does.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Mech vs Mech long games are great, miles better than marinetank.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Broodwar TvT was amazing to watch... :x so many turnarounds were possible. Try to turnaround a TvT when you are behind in Starcraft 2, nearly impossible.
I always felt TvT in sc2 was the only MU where you could actually see a big turnaround...
Yes, im happy Flash won't get chance to grab 1st random OS2L trophy, Rain is more suited for that. Im more hyped for Flash vs Fanta, Jangbi, Stork, Bisu, Jaedong when they all get better instead.
I can't believe that just happened. I was so sure Flash would crush him after those first 2 games. My god I forgot how horrible this feels to see Flash lose, it's been so long since I saw him play live T_T
Damn missed the final set. So, Flash lost? Interesting. Last is finding his way, lets see if he can also take out rain and represent kespa in the grand final.
Rain will be victorious. He didn't fully come in to beat Taeja and Polt and he did, Last will suffer the same fate. Well at least Flash is still in Code A heh.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Broodwar TvT was amazing to watch... :x so many turnarounds were possible. Try to turnaround a TvT when you are behind in Starcraft 2, nearly impossible.
I always felt TvT in sc2 was the only MU where you could actually see a big turnaround...
Well, PvZ as well IF it is late game with BLs and mothership out. So much can turn based on the vortex. But yeah other than that, TvT is one and PvT with storms as well do to AoE (tanks in TvT and storms in PvT).
On September 26 2012 21:26 DigitalDevil wrote: After the first two wins, Flash thought OSL was too easy and decided to concentrate on GSL instead haha.
On September 26 2012 21:26 DigitalDevil wrote: After the first two wins, Flash thought OSL was too easy and decided to concentrate on GSL instead haha.
On September 26 2012 21:26 DigitalDevil wrote: After the first two wins, Flash thought OSL was too easy and decided to concentrate on GSL instead haha.
Where he almost lost to SangHo in Code A?
Yes, I think Flash vs mini will be very interesting.
On September 26 2012 21:17 Waxangel wrote: if they were gonna play a boring mech vs mech turtle game, they shoulda just let them play BW for the last set
Long TvTs are very fun in SC2 also. At least for me.
As long as it's marinetank vs marinetank it's probably the only MU that's more exciting than its BW counterpart.
Broodwar TvT was amazing to watch... :x so many turnarounds were possible. Try to turnaround a TvT when you are behind in Starcraft 2, nearly impossible.
I always felt TvT in sc2 was the only MU where you could actually see a big turnaround...
Well, PvZ as well IF it is late game with BLs and mothership out. So much can turn based on the vortex. But yeah other than that, TvT is one and PvT with storms as well do to AoE (tanks in TvT and storms in PvT).
terran doesn't really deal well with harass, if you are out of position you can lose way too much, even if it's just a single medivac drop, mobility is what truly allows for comebacks in tvt.
On September 26 2012 21:25 Inzan1ty wrote: shocking result here, bet Flash fanboys are smashing their heads on the keyboard right now.
well Rain is the only real unstoppable Kespa player right now, Flash still has some work to do.
I think the games yesterday told all objective people that old guard needs catching up. This is Rain season.
inb4 Rain loses to Last.
And? If he deserves i will be happy for a new progamer showing results. So far Rain is the person who is showing strongest results on all fronts. Flash was just a mythical beast compared to Rain in sc2 so far.
i'll wait and see for a bit if i'll adopt last as my kespa-terran-to-cheer for, as i've already chosen a protoss (jangbi) and zerg (jaedong) he's probably the one i like so far =]
On September 26 2012 21:25 Inzan1ty wrote: shocking result here, bet Flash fanboys are smashing their heads on the keyboard right now.
well Rain is the only real unstoppable Kespa player right now, Flash still has some work to do.
I think the games yesterday told all objective people that old guard needs catching up. This is Rain season.
inb4 Rain loses to Last.
Actually, it would be pretty cool if Last could royal road this because unlike to Flash/Rain/Roro, he just comes out of nowhere.
God will rise again after 3 days yo. Those 3 days aren't his 3 straight losses to fantasy last season or to last just today. Those are Jinair, Tving and Auction.
On September 26 2012 21:32 Qikz wrote: If Last manages to go on and crush Rain I think I might actually have to cry.
He must be practicing crazy hard, wasn't he doing really badly in proleague?
last lost in code a yesterday too, but i imagine he would be practicing TvT and not TvZ
goes to show how volatile SC2 still is, never bet for real money on Pinnacle :D
I wouldn't say that game was volatile, as much as I HATE the fact that Flash lost to last, Flash made incredibly bad movement decisions/push decisions in game 4 and 5 and game 3 he just lost to cloak banshees when he didn't have any proper anti air.
Mech vs Mech is the least possible volatile matchup there is, Flash just got severely out of position and underestimated the power of thors.
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
Well, let's just pretend this is 2007 and Flash just lost to GGplay I guess. Give him a year.
Last is from one of the most hard working and consistent teams there is - STX. With players like Kal, Calm, Shuttle, hero, it was only natural that Last would become a tower of power himself. Flash underestimated him and got to pay the iron price for it. Last vs. Rain will be great, but I'm leaning toward Last.
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
Well, let's just pretend this is 2007 and Flash just lost to GGplay I guess. Give him a year.
So Flash will lose next series to Last, last will retire and Flash will never get his revenge ? :p
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
Well, let's just pretend this is 2007 and Flash just lost to GGplay I guess. Give him a year.
So Flash will lose next series to Last, last will retire and Flash will never get his revenge ? :p
i would make a joke about that but last and mini are like the only two stx players that we even see any more.
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
Well, let's just pretend this is 2007 and Flash just lost to GGplay I guess. Give him a year.
So Flash will lose next series to Last, last will retire and Flash will never get his revenge ? :p
i would make a joke about that but last and mini are like the only two stx players that we even see any more.
Actually, the best thing is that atleast Flash can get his revenge in Code A, he may not be able to beat Last this time, but he can knock his teammate out of Code A (I hope!)
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
Sometimes, I feel like I should give up joking on the internet altogether. Yes, of course he was more dominant. That doesn't mean comparing one to the other is an insult to either person because what they're playing is fundamentally different from the other's sport.
Wait WTF Last made a 3-2 comeback after being down 0 - 2 against Flash ? I didn't know he had it in him and looks like Flash still has a lot of learning to do .
thank you beforehand !! what was that Chinese website yogi something? someone please PM me because i dont want to scroll through comments so i dont spoil it for myself. again, thank you!
Last had amazing TvT in bw and is one of the younger generation. Sad but not too surprised, still impressed with the comeback though. Cool styles by Last going between double starport -> bc's and pure ground compositions. Flash was stuck with raven viking most games which weren't particularly useful.
On September 26 2012 23:53 Scarecrow wrote: Last had amazing TvT in bw and is one of the younger generation. Sad but not too surprised, still impressed with the comeback though. Cool styles by Last going between double starport -> bc's and pure ground compositions. Flash was stuck with raven viking most games which weren't particularly useful.
yeah, i didn't know too much about him so i looked up his stats in tlpd and it looks like they mostly used him as a tvt sniper in proleague, with really bad tvp and tvz
this makes him a very lucky fellow, getting matched up against flash of all people in the matchup that by far has the highest level of skill transference from sc1 to sc2
This is something I have worried about with SC2. I feel like the age of bonjwas could be over. I love Starcraft and WoL but I think its fairly safe to say that the skill ceiling for SC2 is below SC1, this essentially levels the playing field in the pro scene making it very tough for one person to truly dominate. Yes MVP, MC, DRG, MMA, Nestea, and now Taeja have all had really good spurts and runs, but nothing close to reminiscent of Boxer, Nada, or Flash. I truly hope someone proves me wrong, but I'm really worried no one will.
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
lol, not really. 1. you can't compare the two 2. there are so many more tennis tournaments/opportunities....
an I bet you Flash also put a bit more effort and time into practise. I'm not sure federer plays tennis for 10hours every day for 5 years straight.
lol, are you serious?
Tennis has 4 Grand Slams in 1 year (which is more than OSL + MSL) and Federer has WON 17 of those. And he made it to semis in 23 STRAIGHT grand slams.
And time spent practicing can't be compare because you can't really practice tennis for 10 hours a day...
Federer is like Boxer + NaDa + iloveoov + Flash...
There are so many other factors that make consistently winning at tennis much easier than Starcraft.
Just 2 of these are: 1. You don't have to worry about surprise or unexpected "attacks" in tennis (cheese rush, faked timing pushes). 2. In Starcraft, 1 fatal mistake can lose you the game. Lose 3 games, and you lose the finals of OSL, MSL. In tennis, you make 1 fatal mistake, you lose 1 point. Which is not necessarily insignificant, but plays a much much smaller individual role in tennis.
The two would be a much more fair comparison if every match of Broodwar/SC2 was Bo35. Flash would win every series, every time (discounting other potential variables such as fatigue). But this isn't possible for obvious reasons.
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
lol, not really. 1. you can't compare the two 2. there are so many more tennis tournaments/opportunities....
an I bet you Flash also put a bit more effort and time into practise. I'm not sure federer plays tennis for 10hours every day for 5 years straight.
lol, are you serious?
Tennis has 4 Grand Slams in 1 year (which is more than OSL + MSL) and Federer has WON 17 of those. And he made it to semis in 23 STRAIGHT grand slams.
And time spent practicing can't be compare because you can't really practice tennis for 10 hours a day...
Federer is like Boxer + NaDa + iloveoov + Flash...
There are so many other factors that make consistently winning at tennis much easier than Starcraft.
Just 2 of these are: 1. You don't have to worry about surprise or unexpected "attacks" in tennis (cheese rush, faked timing pushes). 2. In Starcraft, 1 fatal mistake can lose you the game. Lose 3 games, and you lose the finals of OSL, MSL. In tennis, you make 1 fatal mistake, you lose 1 point. Which is not necessarily insignificant, but plays a much much smaller individual role in tennis.
The two would be a much more fair comparison if every match of Broodwar/SC2 was Bo35. Flash would win every series, every time (discounting other potential variables such as fatigue). But this isn't possible for obvious reasons.
1. No, instead you have to worry about a big hitter getting hot on any given day. (see: Rosol - Nadal) 2. In tennis, 1 bad service game can lose you the set. Lose 3 sets, and you lose the finals of a Grand Slam. Hell, in a tiebreaker, one bad point can lose you the set. 1 point in tennis != 1 Starcraft game.
Have you watched/played tennis? It's just completely different from Starcraft. The margins at the top for tennis is so ridiculously small, even if the top guys make it look really easy. You could maybe say that variance at the top level in tennis is less than in Starcraft, but that's about it...
1. No, instead you have to worry about a big hitter getting hot on any given day. (see: Rosol - Nadal) 2. In tennis, 1 bad service game can lose you the set. Lose 3 sets, and you lose the finals of a Grand Slam. Hell, in a tiebreaker, one bad point can lose you the set. 1 point in tennis != 1 Starcraft game.
Have you watched/played tennis? It's just completely different from Starcraft. The margins at the top for tennis is so ridiculously small, even if the top guys make it look really easy. You could maybe say that variance at the top level in tennis is less than in Starcraft, but that's about it...
Dude, that random "Federer" guy has won 0 OSLs and 0 MSLs, and you dare compare him to Flash lol. This is a starcraft forum, noone care about stupid "Grand Slam" tournament that requires no micro and macro :D. Comeback when "Fererer" can get to C- on IccUP lol.
if u wanna compare the difficulty of two systems, you can simply look at the top win rates of the top players. The lower it is the harder the system, hence sc is probably the hardest sport if we base our proof from a mathematics point of view.
...lol get of your high horses wow Who cares if one is inherently "harder" than the other? It's the competition with others that makes a particular activity, whether it be StarCraft or Tennis, competitive. Just enjoy what you play and stop trying to compare difficulty levels..
Reminds me of jin air osl . It seems like flash was shaken in ohana g5... He was struggling to shutdown simple scouting... I hope this just wakens his god skills and crushes mvp and gsl. So sad he lost
On September 27 2012 01:52 Rescawen wrote: if u wanna compare the difficulty of two systems, you can simply look at the top win rates of the top players. The lower it is the harder the system, hence sc is probably the hardest sport if we base our proof from a mathematics point of view.
I beg to differ, obviously rock paper scissors is the hardest sport.
On September 27 2012 01:52 Rescawen wrote: if u wanna compare the difficulty of two systems, you can simply look at the top win rates of the top players. The lower it is the harder the system, hence sc is probably the hardest sport if we base our proof from a mathematics point of view.
Ok, are the vods absolutely fcking terrible for anyone else?
For the first few games I get these massive pauses and ghosting artifacts almost to the point of not bothering. Then the last two games there is no friggen sound???!
It's absolutely appalling that they can get away with changing money for this terrible quality. I just want to know though, is anyone else having these problems with the VODS?
I watched todays GSL games afterwards and they were perfect.
On September 27 2012 01:52 Rescawen wrote: if u wanna compare the difficulty of two systems, you can simply look at the top win rates of the top players. The lower it is the harder the system, hence sc is probably the hardest sport if we base our proof from a mathematics point of view.
You have got to be kidding me... if the win rates of the top players are lower than the only argument is that the lesser players are able to keep up anyways... The harder the individual sport the further behind the average players will be. Every sport in the normal sense of the word has had people that dominate it at some point or other though so meh.
Please take your "sc" is the hardest sport crap away. It may take more of some things than some other sports but they also require more of other things than SC.
I'll throw back a useless argument back at you. In starcraft I could beat any pro player in the world if I had a partner of equal skill to myself in a 2v1. I would not be able to outrun the best runners in the world over a long distance even if I had a partner running half the distance. Therefore long distance running is the hardest sport in the world. BAM
I think you guys are overreacting. The guy just recently switched to full sc2..think about the failures of bisu, zero, jangbi, stork etc., he's xoming along nicely and becoming scarier and scarier with each passing day. He need Refinement in tvts. We saw flash treating it like scbw treating hellions Like vultures and treating sc2 tanks like scbw tanks. He will adjust and get scarier. Also it doesnt help his practice partners in teamhosue is... Rax and mind...
I think though for the sake of rising popularity for esports In korea, flash needed to win. Hes a big ticket and brand name After all... I dont think hundreds of fan girls are going to march in to see last play, compared to flash
On September 27 2012 07:20 LighT. wrote: I think though for the sake of rising popularity for esports In korea, flash needed to win. Hes a big ticket and brand name After all... I dont think hundreds of fan girls are going to march in to see last play, compared to flash
Last has good looks. He could be a Bisu type in the future.
But yeah Flash would have been better for the scene.
On September 27 2012 02:26 LighT. wrote: Reminds me of jin air osl . It seems like flash was shaken in ohana g5... He was struggling to shutdown simple scouting... I hope this just wakens his god skills and crushes mvp and gsl. So sad he lost
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
You devalue him.
no
in the end Brood War is just a computer game isolated in 1 country. Tennis is a world wide real sport that requires harder training in a day then pro gamers do in a year. You can not compare a video game to tennis which means you cetainely can't compare Roger to Flash.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
You devalue him.
no
Tennis is a world wide real sport that requires harder training in a day then pro gamers do in a year..
...makes no sense unless you're measuring by sweat produced. BW training regimes were brutal. Anyway it's so difficult to compare them. Tennis you make a bunch of unforced errors and you can still win, plus there's nothing like cheese or build order losses so the best player generally advances more than they do in SC. Tennis you might have to play on clay but you won't have to play on a map where it's almost impossible for your 'nationality' to win. Starcraft is far more unstable/knife edge so any sort of consistent domination is very impressive. That said, both are legends in their fields and comparable to some extent.
On September 27 2012 01:52 Rescawen wrote: if u wanna compare the difficulty of two systems, you can simply look at the top win rates of the top players. The lower it is the harder the system, hence sc is probably the hardest sport if we base our proof from a mathematics point of view.
You have got to be kidding me... if the win rates of the top players are lower than the only argument is that the lesser players are able to keep up anyways... The harder the individual sport the further behind the average players will be.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
yup, proffesional athletes are intrinsically superior
*i didnt mean to doublepost
When comparing their accomplishments to progamer's then yes, being the best at a athletic sport should be seen as a greater achievement then being the best at a computer game.
The argument is not whether sports>esports or esports>sports in skill. But hundreds of thousands of more people play tennis than starcraft. If Flash had had a 100x more competition, he would likely not be as dominant, but Federer was still dominant despite such a huge player base.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
You devalue him.
no
Tennis is a world wide real sport that requires harder training in a day then pro gamers do in a year..
...makes no sense unless you're measuring by sweat produced. BW training regimes were brutal. Anyway it's so difficult to compare them. Tennis you make a bunch of unforced errors and you can still win, plus there's nothing like cheese or build order losses so the best player generally advances more than they do in SC. Tennis you might have to play on clay but you won't have to play on a map where it's almost impossible for your 'nationality' to win. Starcraft is far more unstable/knife edge so any sort of consistent domination is very impressive. That said, both are legends in their fields and comparable to some extent.
You are right. I don't know about other video games but BW's training regimes were brutal. Just look at the Kespa players. They are like machines and they are competing against thousands of players that practice just as much as them and are just as talented. We are talking about 10-15 hours a day. Ask Idra how brutal the competition can be since he stayed at CJ practice house.
IMO, Flash deserves to be in the same sentence as Federer.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
You devalue him.
no
Tennis is a world wide real sport that requires harder training in a day then pro gamers do in a year..
...makes no sense unless you're measuring by sweat produced. BW training regimes were brutal. Anyway it's so difficult to compare them. Tennis you make a bunch of unforced errors and you can still win, plus there's nothing like cheese or build order losses so the best player generally advances more than they do in SC. Tennis you might have to play on clay but you won't have to play on a map where it's almost impossible for your 'nationality' to win. Starcraft is far more unstable/knife edge so any sort of consistent domination is very impressive. That said, both are legends in their fields and comparable to some extent.
You are right. I don't know about other video games but BW's training regimes were brutal. Just look at the Kespa players. They are like machines and they are competing against thousands of players that practice just as much as them and are just as talented. We are talking about 10-15 hours a day. Ask Idra how brutal the competition can be since he stayed at CJ practice house.
IMO, Flash deserves to be in the same sentence as Federer.
no way dude lol. Real sports should not be compared to playing video games. Even Chess, mocked by a lot of professional athletes as not a real sport, requires so much more talent, skill, and dedication to be at the top level than Starcraft.
On September 27 2012 12:31 Luepert wrote: The argument is not whether sports>esports or esports>sports in skill. But hundreds of thousands of more people play tennis than starcraft. If Flash had had a 100x more competition, he would likely not be as dominant, but Federer was still dominant despite such a huge player base.
Well you can make the same argument with soccer or football. Since there are 100x more people playing soccer, Mesi > Federer? You are right about more people playing tennis but 99% of them don't take it seriously.
It's like comparing BW and SC2. SC2 user base is probably 20x larger than BW but it only took 3-6 months for the Kespa players to catch up with the very best SC2 players. And don't forget the current best SC2 players such as MC and MVP all being former Kespa players. You think it would make a difference if the casual user base was 100x larger? I still see the Kespa or former Kespa players dominating. It's same as saying LoL players are better than Flash since they have a larger user base.
On September 26 2012 21:22 Waxangel wrote: obv sc2 is an inferior game where high variance makes it impossible to reliably see the better player win
You're the best troll :<
where
On September 26 2012 22:56 FairForever wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:49 Zealously wrote:
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Never compare a professional athlete (especially one with the class and prominence of Federer) with a computer gamer.
Federer is one of the greatest athletes of all time. Flash was good at a video game.
Both poured their life and soul into it. Flash dominated Starcraft, the most competitive esports of all time, like no other man had done before to a degree unimaginable to the point where korean commentators just called him God.
You devalue him.
no
in the end Brood War is just a computer game isolated in 1 country. Tennis is a world wide real sport that requires harder training in a day then pro gamers do in a year. You can not compare a video game to tennis which means you cetainely can't compare Roger to Flash.
Oh wow, Last actually beat Flash... and came back from 0-2 no less?! O_O wow.
Also why the hell are we having this discussion? For one, it's apples to oranges. For another, starcraft has a history of about a decade. Tennis has a history of several hundred years, and do you really think Federer got to where he is easily? Nobody (well actually, some are) is trying to marginalize Flash's dedication and achievements. Every top player of a competitive sport that has any significant fanbase and competition has to practice his ass off. Second one is more of my personal opinion and is just a facet of the idea that you can't compare the two sports, but I had to get that out there.
However, Federer was world number one of an extremely, extremely sport for freaking 237 consecutive weeks. That's over 4 and a half years of being the world fucking number one, amidst some of the craziest competition out there in an international sport. Tennis players cannot practice 10 and a half hours a day because they would die (they do train for many many hours though, of course...cumulatively Federer's training far exceeds Flash's even when you, for purposes of comparison, only compare an equivalent length of Roger's career, as Fed started much earlier, before even turning pro). Four and a half years in a row at number one out of hundreds and hundreds of really good players. This is just unheard of. Not to mention he is 31 years old and world number one right now, going into his SIXTEENTH year on the tour. He's been in the finals of 10 consecutive major tournaments and has been in 23 consecutive major semis. There are 4 major tournaments in a year.
But all that aside, you just can't compare them...esports is not as physical so you're able to practice for longer period of time, and there is an extensive metagame etc etc. Tennis is physically fatiguing and also very mentally difficult, believe it or not, thanks to how it's 1 vs 1 for hours on end with a multitude of different strategies etc etc. Does this mean either sport's players are less dedicated? Hell no. It just means that you can't reliably compare the two.
For what it's worth, Federer is generally considered one of the greatest athletes of all time, of any sport. The numbers he put up and the records he broke and made are simply mind-boggling. Clearly it's not like Flash didn't practice his ass off or didn't give it his all in order to become the greatest. In terms of greatest performers, Lee Young Ho falls short of Federer in my opinion for various reasons, some of which are enumerated or implied above. BUT again, you fundamentally just can't compare them...both are among the greatest at their respective sports but the sports are essentially distinct from each other in so many ways. You can draw parallels between sets and Bo3, Bo5, and what have you, but really. Come on.
Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
On September 26 2012 22:46 sharkie wrote: Stop insulting federer by comparing him to Flash.
Good job last!
I think you got that backwards, mate.
Fed was a lot more dominant than Flash, mate,
no
Check out Federer's win rates over his entire career including his start and now that he is not at top form. You will revise that opinion. This is a dumb discussion though anyways. Apples and oranges.
On September 27 2012 13:49 stupidhydro wrote: Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
Yeah, honestly, and with all due respect to Flash, even if you compare the sheer amount of training time poured into their respective sports, Federer would smash him into the ground by virtue of the fact that he's spent many more years playing pro tennis than Flash has ever spent playing BW. I'm not privy to Federer's personal training schedule, but Federer turned pro tennis player when Flash was six years old. That was 1998; BW was released in 1998, and Flash came onto the scene in 2007. This is not even counting the training Federer had to undergo before going pro. There's no comparison.
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
THe sad thing is, SC2 is such an incomplete game still that skills do not necessarily reflect who wins the game. There are a lot of variance in the game that anyone can beat anyone.
This is what drives me crazy. If this game is improved to its full potential, Flash would have owned everyone already.
Anyone noticed how flash looked uneasy when he lost his 1st game vs last? I have never seen him like that.. the face just said "I was preparing for a 3:0, but now... i dont think i can do it hmm" just a thought
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
THe sad thing is, SC2 is such an incomplete game still that skills do not necessarily reflect who wins the game. There are a lot of variance in the game that anyone can beat anyone.
This is what drives me crazy. If this game is improved to its full potential, Flash would have owned everyone already.
lol so because Flash doesn't win every game it is the games fault?
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
THe sad thing is, SC2 is such an incomplete game still that skills do not necessarily reflect who wins the game. There are a lot of variance in the game that anyone can beat anyone.
This is what drives me crazy. If this game is improved to its full potential, Flash would have owned everyone already.
someones butthurt!!!! KT fans giving me the SKT fan impression
On September 26 2012 21:47 J1.au wrote: I still support Flash 100%, but I no longer get upset when he loses. It's just not the same in SC2, I simply don't care as much.
THe sad thing is, SC2 is such an incomplete game still that skills do not necessarily reflect who wins the game. There are a lot of variance in the game that anyone can beat anyone.
This is what drives me crazy. If this game is improved to its full potential, Flash would have owned everyone already.
skill does matter wtf are u talking about. flash cant win every set no matter what game it is. And he is owning everyone....
On September 27 2012 12:31 Luepert wrote: The argument is not whether sports>esports or esports>sports in skill. But hundreds of thousands of more people play tennis than starcraft. If Flash had had a 100x more competition, he would likely not be as dominant, but Federer was still dominant despite such a huge player base.
Well you can make the same argument with soccer or football. Since there are 100x more people playing soccer, Mesi > Federer? You are right about more people playing tennis but 99% of them don't take it seriously.
It's like comparing BW and SC2. SC2 user base is probably 20x larger than BW but it only took 3-6 months for the Kespa players to catch up with the very best SC2 players. And don't forget the current best SC2 players such as MC and MVP all being former Kespa players. You think it would make a difference if the casual user base was 100x larger? I still see the Kespa or former Kespa players dominating. It's same as saying LoL players are better than Flash since they have a larger user base.
Actually, that is exactly how it works.
Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. That means it has the biggest an base, the most people people watching, the most people competing in it.
More competition makes it a harder sport.
Sc2 is still a new game, people are still figuring it out. Idk why you'd compare it to BW...
Nice comeback by Last. Really well done there and shows pretty good nerves. And Flash did well too. Ro8 is not bad at all for a first try. He'll be back with a vengeance next time.
Not sure what's more shocking - Flash losing or people comparing Starcraft players to Federer and Schumacher for real.
If not any other argument, just consider the difference in money. Some esports heroes may be millionaires (which is awesome!), but the big sports heroes are multimillionaires, and that's for a reason.
On September 26 2012 21:31 sinigang wrote: This is like watching Rodger Federer lose the 5th set.
Lol, just realized the arguments started popping up after i posted this. I was just referring to the emotions I felt (favorite top player fought til the last but lost), not really comparing the competitiveness between entirely different sports categories.
You can't compare Federer to Flash. Instead, lets compare tennis to starcraft. A tennis match has 4 points a game. You need to win 6 games to get a set. You need to win 3 sets to get a match. So, to get as even as you can with tennis, you have to play at least a bo71 (but that isn't doable, right?). You don't see Federer winning every single point, nor every single set. It would be impossible. The same is with bo3/5/7/whatever, the better player has a higher CHANCE to win, but he's not guaranteed to. That's why you don't see guys completely dominating every opponent every time in starcraft.
On September 28 2012 19:03 redt wrote: You can't compare Federer to Flash. Instead, lets compare tennis to starcraft. A tennis match has 4 points a game. You need to win 6 games to get a set. You need to win 3 sets to get a match. So, to get as even as you can with tennis, you have to play at least a bo71 (but that isn't doable, right?). You don't see Federer winning every single point, nor every single set. It would be impossible. The same is with bo3/5/7/whatever, the better player has a higher CHANCE to win, but he's not guaranteed to. That's why you don't see guys completely dominating every opponent every time in starcraft.
Except that on average each point in tennis is far less nuanced than each game of Starcraft. Individually points in tennis matter very little, and you are even expected to lose the majority of points against your opponent's serve. A better comparison would be 1 game in tennis to 1 game in Starcraft in which case a bo18 would be more appropriate but even then a game can go by in less than a minute in tennis whereas each game in Starcraft is far more balanced. You can equate map selection to service games but in truth serving is a far bigger advantage than most maps provide (at least now that the horribly imbalanced maps that were so prevalent in the beginning of competitive Starcraft 2 have been expunged from the map pool).
On September 28 2012 19:20 nofacej wrote: Except that on average each point in tennis is far less nuanced than each game of Starcraft. Individually points in tennis matter very little, and you are even expected to lose the majority of points against your opponent's serve. A better comparison would be 1 game in tennis to 1 game in Starcraft in which case a bo18 would be more appropriate but even then a game can go by in less than a minute in tennis whereas each game in Starcraft is far more balanced. You can equate map selection to service games but in truth serving is a far bigger advantage than most maps provide (at least now that the horribly imbalanced maps that were so prevalent in the beginning of competitive Starcraft 2 have been expunged from the map pool).
Well yea, I'm just saying that you can't compare tennis players to starcraft players, I'm not a tennis expert, you can't compare them in details and we're still agreeing that you would have to have many more games to determine who the better player is. Though, I'm totally fine with bo3/5-s, they make the game much more strategical and more deep
On September 27 2012 13:49 stupidhydro wrote: Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
Yeah, honestly, and with all due respect to Flash, even if you compare the sheer amount of training time poured into their respective sports, Federer would smash him into the ground by virtue of the fact that he's spent many more years playing pro tennis than Flash has ever spent playing BW. I'm not privy to Federer's personal training schedule, but Federer turned pro tennis player when Flash was six years old. That was 1998; BW was released in 1998, and Flash came onto the scene in 2007. This is not even counting the training Federer had to undergo before going pro. There's no comparison.
Aside from that, wooooo, go Last~
I'm fairly sure that the ratio of hours spent training over the same period of time is at least 2:1 in favor of Starcraft over any physical sport. Progamers spend 10+ hours playing every day (10 being the bare minimum). I don't think it's possible to constantly commit as much time on any kind of physical activity, and even if it were, it probably wouldn't be very productive.
When it comes to commitment and sacrifices that have to be made, very few jobs in the world can match the intensity of being a Brood War progamer, and certainly none of the popular physical sports I can think of (although I imagine there are some extreme ones that I don't know about / can't think of right now).
On September 27 2012 13:49 stupidhydro wrote: Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
Yeah, honestly, and with all due respect to Flash, even if you compare the sheer amount of training time poured into their respective sports, Federer would smash him into the ground by virtue of the fact that he's spent many more years playing pro tennis than Flash has ever spent playing BW. I'm not privy to Federer's personal training schedule, but Federer turned pro tennis player when Flash was six years old. That was 1998; BW was released in 1998, and Flash came onto the scene in 2007. This is not even counting the training Federer had to undergo before going pro. There's no comparison.
Aside from that, wooooo, go Last~
I'm fairly sure that the ratio of hours spent training over the same period of time is at least 2:1 in favor of Starcraft over any physical sport. Progamers spend 10+ hours playing every day (10 being the bare minimum). I don't think it's possible to constantly commit as much time on any kind of physical activity, and even if it were, it probably wouldn't be very productive.
When it comes to commitment and sacrifices that have to be made, very few jobs in the world can match the intensity of being a Brood War progamer, and certainly none of the popular physical sports I can think of (although I imagine there are some extreme ones that I don't know about / can't think of right now).
Thats a very first world centric thing to say man. Sure, being a bw pro is a harder job than being a pro in a well paid physical sports, but it still is far from the most intense jobs in the world. When you dig in some shithole for 12+ hours a day for a wage so you can probably afford just enough food for you and your family to survive (or not), then your job is really one of the hardest in the world. Write "first world" next time instead of "world".
On September 27 2012 13:49 stupidhydro wrote: Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
Yeah, honestly, and with all due respect to Flash, even if you compare the sheer amount of training time poured into their respective sports, Federer would smash him into the ground by virtue of the fact that he's spent many more years playing pro tennis than Flash has ever spent playing BW. I'm not privy to Federer's personal training schedule, but Federer turned pro tennis player when Flash was six years old. That was 1998; BW was released in 1998, and Flash came onto the scene in 2007. This is not even counting the training Federer had to undergo before going pro. There's no comparison.
Aside from that, wooooo, go Last~
I'm fairly sure that the ratio of hours spent training over the same period of time is at least 2:1 in favor of Starcraft over any physical sport. Progamers spend 10+ hours playing every day (10 being the bare minimum). I don't think it's possible to constantly commit as much time on any kind of physical activity, and even if it were, it probably wouldn't be very productive.
When it comes to commitment and sacrifices that have to be made, very few jobs in the world can match the intensity of being a Brood War progamer, and certainly none of the popular physical sports I can think of (although I imagine there are some extreme ones that I don't know about / can't think of right now).
As someone who flirted with all that in a field (Judo), I can assure you that you lose touch with reality. You've no idea of the physical and psychological commitment required to become a professional sportsman. Constantly have to watch out what you eat/drink. Constantly fear an injury of any kind. Being physically exhausted pretty much all the time. Let's not even talk about the competition which is like 100* more developped. Here's the workout routine of Mike Tyson.
Mike tyson Daily Regimen (7 days a week):
5am: get up and go for a 3 mile jog 6am: come back home shower and go back to bed (great workout for those huge legs of his) 10am wake up: eat oatmeal 12pm: do ring work (10 rounds of sparring) 2pm: have another meal (steak and pasta with fruit juice drink) 3pm: more ring work and 60 mins on the exercise bike (again working those huge legs for endurance) 5pm: 2000 sit-ups; 500-800 dips; 500 press-ups; 500 shrugs with a 30kg barbell and 10 mins of neck exercises 7pm: steak and pasta meal again with fruit juice (orange i think it was) 8pm: another 30 minutes on the exercise bike then watch TV and then go to bed.
In all that there's a profund sense of physical and psychological insecurity that most nerds playing Starcraft 8 hours a day don't feel. Starcraft players on the other hand create their own insecurity. Contrary to other sports where you can't be sure of your level until after competing with your rivals in the rare occasion you got, Starcraft players train between each other all the time. Thus, people are much more aware of what their true potential is. The fact some people keep on trying so hard to become a pro although never succeeding to beat their lower tier is stupid. It's not courageous, it's digging your own grave.
On September 27 2012 13:49 stupidhydro wrote: Well. Flash is amazing in what he does and so is Federer but.. flash poured his heart and soul into starcraft like federer did tennis? I'll agree with that statement when flash has been playing starcraft for over two decades...
and on a more on topic note... congratulations to Last for the 0-2 comeback. pretty crazy.
Yeah, honestly, and with all due respect to Flash, even if you compare the sheer amount of training time poured into their respective sports, Federer would smash him into the ground by virtue of the fact that he's spent many more years playing pro tennis than Flash has ever spent playing BW. I'm not privy to Federer's personal training schedule, but Federer turned pro tennis player when Flash was six years old. That was 1998; BW was released in 1998, and Flash came onto the scene in 2007. This is not even counting the training Federer had to undergo before going pro. There's no comparison.
Aside from that, wooooo, go Last~
I'm fairly sure that the ratio of hours spent training over the same period of time is at least 2:1 in favor of Starcraft over any physical sport. Progamers spend 10+ hours playing every day (10 being the bare minimum). I don't think it's possible to constantly commit as much time on any kind of physical activity, and even if it were, it probably wouldn't be very productive.
When it comes to commitment and sacrifices that have to be made, very few jobs in the world can match the intensity of being a Brood War progamer, and certainly none of the popular physical sports I can think of (although I imagine there are some extreme ones that I don't know about / can't think of right now).
Are you still in highschool or something? College students (for difficult majors) study for the same amount of time, bussinessmen can work 12 hours a day, doctors can work for more than 10 hours daily, and their work is more demanding since it isn't about entertainment, but about human lives. Just off the top of my head.
On October 01 2012 20:51 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, it's a stupid comparison. Since e-sports aren't sports.
exactly this. even chess requires several times more skill and talent to reach the top level than BW ever did.
And comparing pro gaming to professional sports? How can sitting on your ass for 10 hours playing a video game compare to a body builder's dedication and training? Or the athleticism and conditioning required for football, or the utter resolve and strength to play in the NFL?
If i recall that article on Tyson correctly, he would do circuits of 200 situps, 50 pushups, 50 dips, 50 shrugs for 10 sets with a few seconds rest in between sets.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wpN8w.jpg)
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What a missed opportunity.
