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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
On September 10 2016 05:29 NEEDZMOAR wrote: Does this mean one should start a roach Warren as soon as they start their ling production? nope. you're being aggressive with your own lingbane and keeping yourself safe through map control + however much extra ling bane is necessary if transitioning | ||
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ReNAmation1
4 Posts
On August 10 2016 16:24 PiGStarcraft wrote: As LoveTool said - Aggression is the answer. If your opponent floods out with more lingbane than you, you add more to stay even in numbers and use your lingbane to zone and keep him back for a time without throwing units away. You're skipping queens/spines that can't contribute offensively so you can put all your money into offense and hit very powerful pressures/timings. That often means leaving 2-4 lings at home to morph into banes incase you get routed and always having a bit of extra supply free so you don't headbutt into your supply cap at a bad time. It's always based on feel - but generally you want to squeeze out a few more drones and then head into it - whilst controlling the map. Would you say preparing a few evos just to act as a wall would be useful? Or would that be too much minerals taken away from feeding your army? Seems what this build seems all about simply overwhelming your opponent. If my early aggression gets routed I tend to try and do things like walling and forcing transitions but only works for me about half the time but not really good enough to say these are viable choices for this type of build more of my idea of a mid transition to counter agression if other zerg is ahead in aggression. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
On September 12 2016 23:07 ReNAmation1 wrote: Would you say preparing a few evos just to act as a wall would be useful? Or would that be too much minerals taken away from feeding your army? Seems what this build seems all about simply overwhelming your opponent. If my early aggression gets routed I tend to try and do things like walling and forcing transitions but only works for me about half the time but not really good enough to say these are viable choices for this type of build more of my idea of a mid transition to counter agression if other zerg is ahead in aggression. ZvZ is all about the power of aggression, and this style is definitely an aggressively oriented way of playing it (the best way to play ZvZ imo). Getting evo chambers doesn't actually shut down aggression all it does is buy time so I don't think this idea DOESNT (EDIT TYPOD THIS BEFORE) suits this style very well. If you find yoursellf needing a little extra help on the counter a spine is much more reliable than a few evos. Neither is preferable though because a 3rd base is so important. You defend your 3rd through your own aggression and map control and your pre-set timing attacks allow you to control the pace of the game so you don't lose yourself in the fast paced nature of zvz. | ||
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Hungry101
25 Posts
With the first attack sometimes the opponents walls off with Spine and Queens so I just try to cancel his 3rd. But I am quite a bit behind on Drones! This can lead to a committed 2-base 1-1 Roach timing that is hard to hold. Even though I have a 3rd longer than him I'm not sure how to translate that into an advantage. Any advice? I've been thinking of going purely upgraded Lings (since I have more Larvae than opponent) straight into Hydra/Lurker instead of Roaches and just counter-attacking/surrounding until then? But Roach/Bane/Ravager is good against that I think:/ | ||
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Sluskis
Sweden16 Posts
On September 20 2016 18:05 Hungry101 wrote: Hi, I'm a big BIG fan of your 1-gas ZvT style (since HotS) and I'm trying to incorporate this ZvZ style currently. I have a specific question. With the first attack sometimes the opponents walls off with Spine and Queens so I just try to cancel his 3rd. But I am quite a bit behind on Drones! This can lead to a committed 2-base 1-1 Roach timing that is hard to hold. Even though I have a 3rd longer than him I'm not sure how to translate that into an advantage. Any advice? I've been thinking of going purely upgraded Lings (since I have more Larvae than opponent) straight into Hydra/Lurker instead of Roaches and just counter-attacking/surrounding until then? But Roach/Bane/Ravager is good against that I think:/ Hey! I know the question is for Pig but I think I can help you out a little bit before he responds! I think that if you face someone walling off, stop all ling-production and go for max amount of drones that you can. If you think it will be a timing make sure that you go for approx 2,5 base saturation and then have your own roachwarren behind with roaches and lings. With defenders advantage you should be fine because you have a better amount of larvae and also better economy! But it's very important that you keep lings/overlords in front of his base so you can see when he moves out and also overlord scout into his bases if you're not sure what units he is building. (in case of someone walling off with queen/spine and then going muta). Hope it helps, good luck on the ladder! | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
So much to learn from a replay that is real hard to learn from just a BO. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
On September 20 2016 18:05 Hungry101 wrote: Hi, I'm a big BIG fan of your 1-gas ZvT style (since HotS) and I'm trying to incorporate this ZvZ style currently. I have a specific question. With the first attack sometimes the opponents walls off with Spine and Queens so I just try to cancel his 3rd. But I am quite a bit behind on Drones! This can lead to a committed 2-base 1-1 Roach timing that is hard to hold. Even though I have a 3rd longer than him I'm not sure how to translate that into an advantage. Any advice? I've been thinking of going purely upgraded Lings (since I have more Larvae than opponent) straight into Hydra/Lurker instead of Roaches and just counter-attacking/surrounding until then? But Roach/Bane/Ravager is good against that I think:/ Heya Hungry, This is an awesome question. Against those gasless builds - *Note*: They aren't always actually gasless, they just have "fake" gas so it looks like a normal build but then they don't start ling speed and go for lair + RW + evo. - It is a little bit awkward. This is why early scouting is so important actually and something I'll add into the OP. You need to learn to recognise when a player is going for this ASAP and then you can cancel your baneling nest and either only pressure with 6-8 lings to make sure they can't get a 3rd, or if you've already started your big wave of lings try to break in and maybe get a bunch of damage done. If the wall is super tight and you think you can't get damage done just pull back and save the lings for later. As long as you don't just throw away a horde of lings, and you cancel the bane nest you can usually go into 10-12 roaches and then mass ling, using that 3rd hatch for larva. Just 2-gases and a few drones on your 3rd base. You aim to completely surround the roaches with your mass ling and drop biles all over it before the roaches 2-shotting your lings gets a chance to spiral out of control. You can fully hide this and gamble with a sick pre-set surround if you feel way behind from early. If you cancelled bane nest and didn't commit to ling pressure at all you can still go lair and evo and match their roaches with your own etc. Check out this VoD from my ladder today: Notice how I commit to the timing pretty hard but his walloff defence is pretty sick so I end up in a very tight spot and have to gamble quite a bit on the mass ravager ling defence. (~40 drone econ) It works splendidly and if I wasn't so greedy later on and just kept making roaches with a slower muta transition I would have had the game in the bag. Ofc I win eventually... but you can't always bank on coming back after you get knocked down to 5 drones hidden in a corner of your main LOL! Oh also even at pro level people regularly mess up those walls and you can just kill them if you're already committed! Just gotta focus-fire the correct stuff and micro pretty decently. On September 21 2016 05:31 IcemanAsi wrote: Any chance of us getting a replay pack of you preforming this style? So much to learn from a replay that is real hard to learn from just a BO. I have some reps of similar stuff peppered through my replay packs that go out to subs most weeks. However i haven't really been playing this style much lately. Only when I feel like going very aggressive with ling-bane once in a while. Check out the VoD from my previous response to show it vs a gasless type opening. I'll take a note to save any reps doing this style and throw a few of them in here publicly available within the next week or so. | ||
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A_Scarecrow
Australia721 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
On October 07 2016 16:12 A_Scarecrow wrote: out of curiosity what build do you generally use these days pig? Lazy-mans build or 1-gas upgraded lings (bit greedy) on cross frost or gettysburg. Lazy mans build is fast 3rd skipping banes, ling pressure to cover this greed, straight into roaches and usually a big roachling based timing attack. Difference to Solar in this game is I'd start ling production from 33 supply (already 4 lings on the map): | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
I already gone through stage 1 and stage 2 of the build, I'm practicing the macro mode. Staying on roach ravager isn't that interesting, so I want to add infetors there (fungle bile combo is good, catching retreating roaches is good, and I'm well prepared for a muta transition this way). But at what point can I go for an infestation pit? I guess unlike the muta transition it does require upgrades on the roaches. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia1004 Posts
On February 27 2017 07:14 bulya wrote: With 3.8 it seems like infestors is a better switch then mutas. I already gone through stage 1 and stage 2 of the build, I'm practicing the macro mode. Staying on roach ravager isn't that interesting, so I want to add infetors there (fungle bile combo is good, catching retreating roaches is good, and I'm well prepared for a muta transition this way). But at what point can I go for an infestation pit? I guess unlike the muta transition it does require upgrades on the roaches. Nothing's changed with regard to infestors or mutas in 3.8. Both are still great options, though infestors really only became a thing outside of being a counter to mutas, on the EU ladder in recent times. Koreans still don't play this style AFAIK. Generally any tech off a solid style will be basically - start that tech after you have 3 bases, 6 gases fully saturated. So that's the general marking. However you can get it earlier if you have spare gas and you feel you can get away with it | ||
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Meepman
Canada610 Posts
I used this build and smashed with it, but he called me a faggot. I know you're a benevolent god of strategy, but do you have any helpful tips for dealing with hurt feelings? | ||
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
On March 07 2017 14:54 Meepman wrote: Hi PiG, I used this build and smashed with it, but he called me a faggot. I know you're a benevolent god of strategy, but do you have any helpful tips for dealing with hurt feelings? Absolutely fantastic bump Tasteless. Serious though, if PiG sees it how relevant are most of your points in this guide on new maps? | ||
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DERASTAT
Germany99 Posts
just thought that i Bump it in there, Pig is teaching this guide here | ||
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