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Ruined Gamer
United States36 Posts
On May 15 2013 06:35 Kontys wrote: I'm mainly critiquing the thread title. It's actually pretty clever. It's 100% correct yet also very misleading. When you first read it you assume that it's about a discussion on a build focusing on lack of warp gate upgrade in PvZ yet in actuality it's about a carrier/VR push that forsakes WG in order to get upgrades out extra fast. | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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IMplying
Germany58 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On May 16 2013 04:01 IMplying wrote: Why not get two Cyber Cores? Skipping warp seems utterly retarded it's the equivalent of a Zerg who's not getting queens because for the cost of two of them he could make another Hatch or a Terran who builds another Rax instead of a OC. There have been instances in the past where both of those methods you mention have been incredibly useful. Foregoing the OC was once a tactic that enabled the most aggressive 2rax vs Zerg possible. It allowed for significantly more pressure from those 3 extra marines that you wouldn't be able to afford otherwise at that specific timing. Emphasizing hatcheries over queens is still effective today with the ~14-15 hatch builds we see in all MU. Queens are nice, but hatcheries ALSO allow for more income as well as production, it is an important aspect that considered at the highest levels when fine-tuning builds. That being said, Warp Gate should probably eventually be picked up, possibly via a 2nd cyber core if it can be afforted. Getting it at an offbeat timing is one thing, but ignoring it needlessly is just unnecessary. | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 16 2013 03:43 LucoxP wrote: Also, if it goes into the late game (past 20 minsish) Zerg could just fall back on mass Swarm Host+Spores+Vipers+Queens+Corrupters/Hydras and just send waves of locusts at toss while slowly killing their air army with abduct and spores. You NEED templars in the late game. Pure air won't work. eh, If we can GO into that late of a game, I'm pretty sure storm/HT already up. AND REMEMBER, feedback got more range then abduct. Plus 3-3 carriers is not something you can joke with, especially with gateway backup. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 16 2013 06:46 iLevitate wrote: eh, If we can GO into that late of a game, I'm pretty sure storm/HT already up. AND REMEMBER, feedback got more range then abduct. Plus 3-3 carriers is not something you can joke with, especially with gateway backup. I thought both feedback and abduct were 9? Anyway this was said earlier but I feel like it needs to be repeated: this is a mid-game build order. Arguing about late game with this build is irrelevant to the OP. And obviously when you're on 3 base P there are many late game options available to you. | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 16 2013 07:30 rsvp wrote: I thought both feedback and abduct were 9? Anyway this was said earlier but I feel like it needs to be repeated: this is a mid-game build order. Arguing about late game with this build is irrelevant to the OP. And obviously when you're on 3 base P there are many late game options available to you. Oh shit you right,,, for some reason I alway thought feedback got more range... T_T | ||
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
That being said yes you need HT's at one point, probably when you take your fourth base and saturate the gases there. carriers are so tanky but they take a while to build, hence that you should wait till you have your third up and running with void/tempest zealot. I feelonce you have 1/1 you can squeeze in warpgate and like 6-10 more gateways to be able to quickly max and get some meat between you and your air which i really nice since you won't lose any important gas units in mid game fights. i did a similar but not exactly BO today and lategame you get a mothership out for the cloak, then the zerg can spam swarm hosts yes, but can't get any detection close to you, so you will not lose any units if you place your army correctly. also with like 10 tempest you can 2 shot hatches, so abuse recall as much as you can. Late midgame save like 20 supply to warp in zealots for harass. Two cyber cores to upgrade is too much, since you have a forge for shield upgrades and you will have more army leftover after every engagement, so shield upgrade will benefit you the most here. Feedback vs abduct, yes they have the same range, but one you havfe a mothership out, he will need to get an overseer close enough to abduct something. So keep your mothership to the back of your army, while it still cloaks everything and keep your HT's beneath them, you should be able to feedback any vipers/infestors that come close. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 16 2013 03:43 LucoxP wrote: Also, if it goes into the late game (past 20 minsish) Zerg could just fall back on mass Swarm Host+Spores+Vipers+Queens+Corrupters/Hydras and just send waves of locusts at toss while slowly killing their air army with abduct and spores. You NEED templars in the late game. Pure air won't work. I don't think you understand how phenomenally useless corruptors are when your air is two or three weapon upgrades ahead of their armor upgrades. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 16 2013 08:20 TechSc2 wrote: Feedback vs abduct, yes they have the same range, but one you havfe a mothership out, he will need to get an overseer close enough to abduct something. So keep your mothership to the back of your army, while it still cloaks everything and keep your HT's beneath them, you should be able to feedback any vipers/infestors that come close. Except for the fact that he can just abduct the mothership itself. "In back of your army" doesn't mean much against vipers since they fly. | ||
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TechSc2
Netherlands554 Posts
On May 16 2013 09:42 Xequecal wrote: Except for the fact that he can just abduct the mothership itself. "In back of your army" doesn't mean much against vipers since they fly. So you let him abduct a mothership with vipers while you have HT's underneath it?. Now don't get me wrong, but if this happens you lack army control. Your ht's can always feedback the vipers without being seen, and also your tempest should have killed the viper before it even gets close to your mothership. | ||
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ninjasith
United States1 Post
When the OP said he is having a 90% win rate vs zerg in mid-masters. Nevertheless, Great post. Thanks for the build. My lowly starcraft skills will be trying it out shortly. The lack of scouting would be my only concern. But, if it is as good as you say it is, there is no reason not to try it. plus, I <3 skytoss/carriers  | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 16 2013 23:42 ninjasith wrote: I like how this thread turned into a lot of people saying that this build won't work. When the OP said he is having a 90% win rate vs zerg in mid-masters. Nevertheless, Great post. Thanks for the build. My lowly starcraft skills will be trying it out shortly. The lack of scouting would be my only concern. But, if it is as good as you say it is, there is no reason not to try it. plus, I <3 skytoss/carriers the reason is because most people in here are mid master+ | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
Are you using 2 pylon wall off? How many cannons are you making? When are you making a zealot? Are you making any sentries? If you're not making sentries what's your plan for scouting? Using the first voidray? Or you actually make a phoenix before hand? I'm interested in the build but you provided no real details on the transition besides, forge gate core stargate and make voidrays. Considering how late your mofocore is... and no details on when you make the zealot/sentry/stalker/cannon you'll just die to roach bust no? Please provide more info. If you don't have warpgates and youre just chronoboosting voidrays... how are you ever going to stop zergs from denying your 3rd with just lings and burrow? edit: If your order is core -> sentry -> stargate -> +1 air. Isn't it better to go warpgate -> sentry -> stargate -> +1? Considering you're not going to use your stargate for phoenixes, getting a slightly delayed voidray to get your 3rd should still fit your timing. And I'm assuming you're investing your chronoboosts on nexuses until you get fleet beacon tech? | ||
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Xaddy
Sweden41 Posts
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:40 Xaddy wrote: I just tried your 6 carriers and 4 void rays against pure hydra. 52 hydras without upgrades beat the army, without setting up a concave in advance as well as off of creep, just stutterstepping towards the army. So, a real 200/200 army of hydras, which is what; 60 hydras with 2/2? and with queen back up as well as possibly some spore crawlers, this push is very easily counterable. A good cheese, I presume, since it requires some successful scouting and hard countering, but still it's a cheese build. where did your battle take place? open field???? | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
It was a really tough game but I turtled on 3 base and whittled him down with hit/run tactics with carriers and pulled out the W. | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On May 17 2013 00:09 iLevitate wrote: the reason is because most people in here are mid master+ Oh really? I doubt that. | ||
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Kakaru2
198 Posts
On May 12 2013 04:20 SteveNick wrote: Also, maybe the title should be changed to something more appropriate? Warpgateless PvZ sort of implies that you're going to just make units out of non-warpgates or something. Doesn't really tell what this is. I jumped into this because I assume this. However, really liking your carriers strat. Thanks for sharing. | ||
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