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This is a build I've been using to extreme success in masters, I have something like an 85% win rate against Zerg with it. Basically, the general idea is you do not ever upgrade warpgate tech, and instead get a very fast +1 air weapons upgrade. The extreme strength of weapon upgrades on 0.5 attack speed void rays lets you hold off a wide variety of allins while building up to a devastating void ray/carrier timing.
If your opponent just lets you macro and puts no pressure at all, you can arrive at their base with 6 carriers and 4 void rays (and 4 stargates pumping more void rays rallied down) with 3/2/1 upgrades at about 14:30-15:00 depending on the map size. This timing is almost impossible for Zerg to hold due to the superior upgrades. Corruptors will be 1/0 at most and are useless. It can be beaten with pure hydra/viper, but any investment into swarm hosts, infestors, or ultralisks means the Zerg player will not have enough hydralisks to kill your air even with the help of abduct. Since most Zerg will assume you're going for voidray/HT/tempest when you play passively, they have no chance of surviving your attack since they'll have useless swarm hosts.
Build Order (Standard Nexus First):
9 Pylon
17 Nexus, Forge, Gateway, Pylon
18 Cannon, 2 Assimilators
Cybernetics Core when Gateway finishes
Stargate when Cybernetics Core finishes
After starting CC, all chrono boosts on probes until you have 22 workers at your main and natural. Start your third assimilator when your natural has 3 probes built, start your fourth assimilator just before the stargate finishes warping in.
When stargate finishes, start a void ray, then start +1 air weapons. It's critical that you not get supply blocked. The easiest places to get supply blocked are stuck at 33-36/36 supply and being unable to start the void ray, or at 44/44 supply and unable to produce probes because the void ray is 4 supply.
You'll hit 44 probes around the same time the first void ray finishes, start another void ray, a MSC, and go take your third base. Use the void ray to kill any scouting overlords and clear zerglings from the third. Put down nexus + pylon at your third, then make a second stargate, fleet beacon, and start a third void ray with your next 700 minerals. After this, make three cannons at your third, then take both assimilators at the third. The Zerg player might try to snipe your third with a bunch of zerglings about here, so keep your two void rays at your third until the cannons are done, then move them back to the natural. Position the MSC between the natural and third so you can overcharge either of them.
Note that you stopped making probes for awhile after you saturated main/natural with 44 of them, it's the only way to afford all of this. Only when you've started the cannons and assimilators at the third do you make more probes and rally them to the third base. The third base will never need more than 12 probes on it, you want to put 3 on each gas ASAP, but the minerals are actually not that important. You can add probes as you have spare minerals going forward, but gas will be the real bottleneck here.
Anyway, when the second stargate finishes, use it to start a fourth void ray. The fleet beacon and +1 weapons should finish about the same time. When it does, immediately start a carrier from the first stargate and +2 air weapons on the cybernetics core. Now start a second cybernetics core. When the fourth void ray finishes, start another carrier. At this point, chain chrono boost the cybernetics core and 2 stargates making carriers, you want these out ASAP. With your next 300 gas, make a third and fourth stargate. When your second core finishes, start +1 air armor. Start four more carriers from your four stargates as your first two carriers finish, and from this point on all remaining chrono boosts should go towards upgrades.
Start +3 air weapons as soon as +2 and your initial two carriers are done and you have 4 more carriers building. Chain chrono it. Start +2 air armor when +1 armor finishes. You should have enough gas here to keep all four stargates in production (make pure void rays after your initial 6 carriers) as well as start graviton catapult and +1 shields research when +3 air weapons is about 30-40% done. Move out with your air, timed so you reach their base when +3 and catapult finish upgrading.
You should easily kill them at this point. 200/200 in hydralisks will get flattened in about five seconds, corruptors are even worse against this composition. He needs to have 200/200 in hydras plus about 6 vipers to beat you. Even if he has this he still needs to micro his ass off and kite your slow air while chain abducting, simply attack moving and abducting your carriers over the hydralisks will not work.
Dealing with aggression/allins:
2 base muta:
This is a build order loss for the Zerg. You don't need to change anything. 4 +1 void rays will beat 11 0/0 mutalisks, just make sure to focus fire. Soon after your carriers will be out and this build becomes laughable.
2 base swarm host/nydus:
Another easy win. Your 4 void rays can suppress the locusts long enough that you don't lose anything until the carriers pop, at which point the locusts will never get in range of your buildings again. I would wait until you have your 6 carriers to push out in case he spammed a million spore colonies and queens by his swarm hosts. Just make an oracle after the 6 carriers and go crush him.
2 base roach/ling allin:
You'll have 2 void rays out, charge them up and roast the roaches. Some lings will probably get past and you'll lose some probes, but he'll be catastrohpically behind after this. Just make sure you plug the holes in your wall with new buildings after the roaches are dead and he's run the lings past into your main to prevent more from flooding by while you send your air to clear your main out.
2 base ling/baneling allin:
You lose. This is the one allin I don't think you can beat without sentries, even having a bunch of extra cannons when it arrives won't really help you.
Hydra/roach. hydra/ling, hydra/roach/ling attacks on your third:
Contrary to what you might think, you win pretty easily against any kind of aggression along these lines. By the time he finishes hydra speed, your first two carriers will be out. He needs to have roaches and/or lings to tank your cannon and photon overcharge, and it's simply impossible for him to have these tanking units AND enough hydralisks to beat your air. If he went light on hydras and heavy on the roach/ling, you will likely lose your third, but he will lose all of his hydralisks and you won't lose any units. He is now way behind on tech and has a bunch of useless roach/ling, you can just go kill him when your 6 carriers pop.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/333326
http://drop.sc/333327
http://drop.sc/333328
http://drop.sc/333329
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I've been ling/bane all-in every Toss I encounter these days. Too tough to deal with late-game toss air. This build is just another reason to do it.
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On May 11 2013 12:35 ElMeanYo wrote:
I've been ling/bane all-in every Toss I encounter these days. Too tough to deal with late-game toss air. This build is just another reason to do it.
I think once protosses realize that an Oracle will kill a large number of those lings, they will be much safer vs this kind of all-in as well as those mass ling runby styles.
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I can't get over the fact that this is what I did versus the AI in cooperative games long before I played 1's... who needs Warpgates when you can save that 50 gas for Carriers and Void Rays!
Looking forward to checking out the replays tomorrow. Thanks.
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I don't know. i always get sad when builds like this don't mention 2 base swarm host play that isn't the nydus all in version of it.
essentially this swarm host build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406057 (Rek even has a few vods that show how to deal with air. while none of them are this fast air builds, the concept is essentially the same)
The whole overlord queen creep highway with the 5-6 queens that he always pushes with will kill the 4 void easily due to transfuses and this comes at the exact same time that the nydus version hits at least around a minute later. Especially with the overlord scout and the goal of hitting the late game if possible.
BUT i do have to say that i've hit similar styles to this build and as a zerg player it is really strong. this type of style is the reason i stopped going hydra/ling or roach/hydra pushes and moved into the swarmhost/queen/hydra/infestor/viper compositions.
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Hi Im masters on kr and this is very similar to what Ive been doing since late WoL, against unexpected zergs this will completely destroy them(>90% PvZ winrate in late WoL) but nowadays since more people are beginning to do dedicated stargate builds, zergs have been doing timing attacks that abuses the long build time of carriers. A very powerful timing is the 12-13 minute, 120-140 supply ling/hydra/corruptor attack that will break a dedicated stargate player since he only has 2-3 carriers at max and void rays will fall very quickly to combined hydra fire. Usually this happens when zergs see you have a fleet beacon/2 or more stargates, they'll skip the forth, immediately get a spire and halt drones while focusing on hydra/ling production, then pump out 6-8 corruptors once spire's done. At this point you will only have 4 void rays which will fall very quickly to hydras, and 2 carriers, which are dead once the void rays are gone. So far ive had no luck holding off this kind of attack with dedicated stargate play
Another concern is 3 base mutas, which as you say sucks at direct engagements, but since they are so fast void rays and carriers simply cannot kill them off before they deal crippling damage. Since your stargates are all jammed with carriers which take eons to build(80 if you chrono it all the way but if you want to hit the +3 timing you need to chrono upgrades first, which means not enough chronos for carriers) and that means your stargates cant get phoenixes out to zone out mutas. As the muta ball slowly masses up you will just get overrun.
My version of this build involves getting warpgate and teching slowly to DTs, because they serve as an excellent distraction while I attack. My style is also a lot more aggressive, often times I'll move out with +2 weapons with 3-4 carriers+ couple of void rays and deny the zerg forth and hopefully, kill the third. Usually I sneak around towers and away from open grounds and hit expansions from a very weird angle, seemingly committing but recalling at the last second. Repeat this attack with DTs as distraction and eventually the zerg will be so gas starved that his AA will do nothing.
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Russian Federation42 Posts
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Russian Federation42 Posts
Very interesting style thx for guide!
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Not getting warpgate is a mistake in my opinion. Pure skytoss shouldn't be able to win like that without storm.
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looks nice, on which maps does this work?
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On May 11 2013 17:37 UltiBahamut wrote:I don't know. i always get sad when builds like this don't mention 2 base swarm host play that isn't the nydus all in version of it. essentially this swarm host build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406057 (Rek even has a few vods that show how to deal with air. while none of them are this fast air builds, the concept is essentially the same) The whole overlord queen creep highway with the 5-6 queens that he always pushes with will kill the 4 void easily due to transfuses and this comes at the exact same time that the nydus version hits at least around a minute later. Especially with the overlord scout and the goal of hitting the late game if possible. BUT i do have to say that i've hit similar styles to this build and as a zerg player it is really strong. this type of style is the reason i stopped going hydra/ling or roach/hydra pushes and moved into the swarmhost/queen/hydra/infestor/viper compositions.
From my experience as a zerg play, fast Carriers absolutly destroy swarm host pushes. Like insanely destroy them and any form of queens that push with them. Like, you should be capable to hold out against the first 2-3waves of locust with *whatever*. And then the Carriers just rape locusts, queens and swarm hosts alike.
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can someone tell me when the push hit?
couldn't watch the reps right now
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at the point where you have gas for ht's im sure it wouldn't hurt you to research warpgate...it's only 50 gas in the mid-lategame
edit: good guide, i like this style
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I like it alot, I still have some problems versus hydra/swarm hosts or hydra/ling/corruptor plays. That's probably because I'm not a very good player. Once the fleet get rolling though, oh boy!
Fun fact: WhiteRa played a similar style and when his opponent asked about the counter he said "Hydra-Viper poosh.". However, Whitey went straight for 2 carriers into mass cannons + third instead of getting some voidrays first.
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On May 11 2013 20:55 uh-oh wrote:
Hi Im masters on kr and this is very similar to what Ive been doing since late WoL, against unexpected zergs this will completely destroy them(>90% PvZ winrate in late WoL) but nowadays since more people are beginning to do dedicated stargate builds, zergs have been doing timing attacks that abuses the long build time of carriers. A very powerful timing is the 12-13 minute, 120-140 supply ling/hydra/corruptor attack that will break a dedicated stargate player since he only has 2-3 carriers at max and void rays will fall very quickly to combined hydra fire. Usually this happens when zergs see you have a fleet beacon/2 or more stargates, they'll skip the forth, immediately get a spire and halt drones while focusing on hydra/ling production, then pump out 6-8 corruptors once spire's done. At this point you will only have 4 void rays which will fall very quickly to hydras, and 2 carriers, which are dead once the void rays are gone. So far ive had no luck holding off this kind of attack with dedicated stargate play
Another concern is 3 base mutas, which as you say sucks at direct engagements, but since they are so fast void rays and carriers simply cannot kill them off before they deal crippling damage. Since your stargates are all jammed with carriers which take eons to build(80 if you chrono it all the way but if you want to hit the +3 timing you need to chrono upgrades first, which means not enough chronos for carriers) and that means your stargates cant get phoenixes out to zone out mutas. As the muta ball slowly masses up you will just get overrun.
My version of this build involves getting warpgate and teching slowly to DTs, because they serve as an excellent distraction while I attack. My style is also a lot more aggressive, often times I'll move out with +2 weapons with 3-4 carriers+ couple of void rays and deny the zerg forth and hopefully, kill the third. Usually I sneak around towers and away from open grounds and hit expansions from a very weird angle, seemingly committing but recalling at the last second. Repeat this attack with DTs as distraction and eventually the zerg will be so gas starved that his AA will do nothing.
I've never lost to mass muta other than making mistakes and then getting base traded and running out of buildings before they do, Carriers slaughter mutas so well it's pretty ridiculous. You'll be +3 against like 1/1 mutas and they stand no chance with that even with like 4x the resources in mutas. The other thing is this build is so gas heavy and mineral light you can lose quite a few probes to muta harass and only be barely slowed down, just put surviving probes back in gas first after you chase them off.
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I just tried this twice against mass mutas... how do you deal with them? They just run circles around my base without ever engaging my army and taking out all of my probes/pylons
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So what do you spend your minerals on? MOAR KANNONS?
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On May 11 2013 12:10 Xequecal wrote:
2 base muta:
This is a build order loss for the Zerg. You don't need to change anything. 4 +1 void rays will beat 11 0/0 mutalisks, just make sure to focus fire. Soon after your carriers will be out and this build becomes laughable.
No, just no. This isn't just as simple as herpderp lets fight my voidrays vs your mutas, loser leaves the game. 2base muta is more of an opener behind which you can make lots of drones, especially after scouting immobile voidrays.
Saying 2base muta is a "build order loss" vs your build is very stupid.
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This push just worked really well in a game I played vs. a Masters Zerg. I got blindsided by mutas in my main and mass lings at my third, effectivelly killing off the majority of my probes, but I had 2/2 so I a-moved him and won even though he had a ton of hydra at home and was making muta/corruptor. His air units were no match for my upgraded army. No telling how well it would have worked if I had deflected his attack properly.
Also, if he goes muta, couldn't you just make phoenixes for a few rounds, then go back to the standard build?
Thanks for the write up. I had tried builds like this before but if you go straight to carriers you lose to him scouting/going corruptors, but this build heavily refines the sloppy strategy I was trying to execute before into something that can work a good amount of the time.
Also, maybe the title should be changed to something more appropriate? Warpgateless PvZ sort of implies that you're going to just make units out of non-warpgates or something. Doesn't really tell what this is.
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it's ridiculous to not get templars with this?
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EPT
