EPT[D] Warpgateless PvZ - Page 2
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Demicore
France503 Posts
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
My conclusion: Don't even think of pushing out to attack the zerg until your 4th base/warpgates/ storm. | ||
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Replicats
Canada18 Posts
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
http://drop.sc/333549 Obviously this isn't a build I've been using long so I don't play perfect this game. I get distracted and get my 2/2 upgrades very late, and probably fumble up some of the BO, but managed to pull off a win against swarm host/nydus with mass queen/spore with transition into hydra. It wasn't an easy win by any means, and I'm thinking that carriers are the best thing to get to counter spore/queen. I was never in danger of dying this game. The most problematic thing was the possibility of him containing me, macroing up, and countering my tech. At first I thought I could break the nydus contain with just voids, but yeah, that just isn't happening. Fortunately the +1 voids combined with cannon spam at your front can hold off locusts pretty much indefinitely without losing much until you get the carriers. Criticism welcome btw. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
What the hell do I do against this? | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 12 2013 07:51 Henk wrote: I think I just played against this on the ladder and lost horribly. He killed my 3rd with 4-5 voidrays (scouted them too late) and I then produced mass hydra, but his carriers simply raped my entire hydra army a few minutes later. What the hell do I do against this? watch my replay vs the high master. I make a bad move pushing out, but even if I turtle, He will just trade and trade and trade since he got a better economy. | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
On May 12 2013 07:53 MarlieChurphy wrote: This thread title was deceptive. I was expecting some oldschool broodwar style shit but it's just some air build with imba voidrays. Are you kidding? Why would anyone ever do that, it gives zero benefits since warpgate makes units considerably faster than gateway, if you want to play Brood War style plays SC2BW or BW itself. About the guide, this build is very strong, I know from experience, but I stopped doing it because it is such a boring build, turtling until max is really not fun from me, but its a very nice build for tournaments because it's so strong. | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
On May 12 2013 04:21 ImperialFist wrote: it's ridiculous to not get templars with this? 100 gas for twilight 200 for archive 200 for storm 150 per templar... You can't really afford this when litterally ALL of your gas is going into air units and upgrades. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On May 12 2013 07:51 Henk wrote: I think I just played against this on the ladder and lost horribly. He killed my 3rd with 4-5 voidrays (scouted them too late) and I then produced mass hydra, but his carriers simply raped my entire hydra army a few minutes later. What the hell do I do against this? You already have the answer that he killed your third with 4 voidrays. If he has a third himself that would already put you in a terrible position. There are many ways to win against this - its a super specific build as you can see one of the things he does is skip warpgate - so its a super dedicated air build. He wont be able to transition out of Air without a significant advantage. Denying the third can be one way of dealing with this. He basically takes his third with 2 voidrays. There are no sentries to even stop runbys. Once his third is gone, you have to deal with a lot less air. Another possible way to deal with this is scout well, and if you suspect something along these lines, play super greedy (whats he going to do in the first 10 minutes anyway) and then just completely dominate his army with 30%-60% more stuff (as a lof of his recources went into tech structures and upgrades) | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On May 11 2013 20:55 uh-oh wrote: Hi Im masters on kr and this is very similar to what Ive been doing since late WoL, against unexpected zergs this will completely destroy them(>90% PvZ winrate in late WoL) but nowadays since more people are beginning to do dedicated stargate builds, zergs have been doing timing attacks that abuses the long build time of carriers. A very powerful timing is the 12-13 minute, 120-140 supply ling/hydra/corruptor attack that will break a dedicated stargate player since he only has 2-3 carriers at max and void rays will fall very quickly to combined hydra fire. Usually this happens when zergs see you have a fleet beacon/2 or more stargates, they'll skip the forth, immediately get a spire and halt drones while focusing on hydra/ling production, then pump out 6-8 corruptors once spire's done. At this point you will only have 4 void rays which will fall very quickly to hydras, and 2 carriers, which are dead once the void rays are gone. So far ive had no luck holding off this kind of attack with dedicated stargate play Another concern is 3 base mutas, which as you say sucks at direct engagements, but since they are so fast void rays and carriers simply cannot kill them off before they deal crippling damage. Since your stargates are all jammed with carriers which take eons to build(80 if you chrono it all the way but if you want to hit the +3 timing you need to chrono upgrades first, which means not enough chronos for carriers) and that means your stargates cant get phoenixes out to zone out mutas. As the muta ball slowly masses up you will just get overrun. My version of this build involves getting warpgate and teching slowly to DTs, because they serve as an excellent distraction while I attack. My style is also a lot more aggressive, often times I'll move out with +2 weapons with 3-4 carriers+ couple of void rays and deny the zerg forth and hopefully, kill the third. Usually I sneak around towers and away from open grounds and hit expansions from a very weird angle, seemingly committing but recalling at the last second. Repeat this attack with DTs as distraction and eventually the zerg will be so gas starved that his AA will do nothing. I agree completely. I have no problem beating this build by simply delaying the third with many lings and pushing with a ton of hydras. It's simply not viable to take a third with only mothership core and 2 stargate void ray, completing ignoring gateway units. Here's a recent example that demonstrates almost exactly this scenario. http://drop.sc/331563 | ||
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Lauriel
United States108 Posts
Love it. Gonna use it a lot. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
On May 12 2013 08:08 moskonia wrote: Are you kidding? Why would anyone ever do that, it gives zero benefits since warpgate makes units considerably faster than gateway, if you want to play Brood War style plays SC2BW or BW itself. About the guide, this build is very strong, I know from experience, but I stopped doing it because it is such a boring build, turtling until max is really not fun from me, but its a very nice build for tournaments because it's so strong. "If you think this thread was about something else because the title is misleading gtfo and play BW!!!!!!!!" | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
Any suggestions on how to handle the lack of mobility of the sky army? I feel like the fact that my units are all slow and vulnerable means that I must keep them all together, since they won't be able to run/join up with the rest of my forces if attacked and I'd bleed units by splitting them. It's hard to pick engagements with such an immobile force so I have to rely on the strength of them all combined, but then in turn have problems protecting my structures. Corruptors out speed me so he can run from my main army, do multi pronged attacks, and then when I have to split to defend, he brings all his corruptors to fight a portion of my army. Do you suggest just mass cannon to protect bases? I suppose keeping the MSC around for overcharge helps too. | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
On May 12 2013 18:28 SteveNick wrote: This build seems really immobile and vulnerable to attacks. However, I end up winning a lot of games in spite of taking huge damage, just from the strength of my heavily upgraded air army crushing everything when I move out. I played against a guy that scouted my composition and started doing ling attacks and constant nydus harassment. It was really annoying to deal with with slow voids/carriers. Whenever I tried to push, he would backstab. If you try to split your force, you can get caught by a corruptor swarm out of position. I still won this game but it was very problematic to deal with. Any suggestions on how to handle the lack of mobility of the sky army? I feel like the fact that my units are all slow and vulnerable means that I must keep them all together, since they won't be able to run/join up with the rest of my forces if attacked and I'd bleed units by splitting them. It's hard to pick engagements with such an immobile force so I have to rely on the strength of them all combined, but then in turn have problems protecting my structures. Corruptors out speed me so he can run from my main army, do multi pronged attacks, and then when I have to split to defend, he brings all his corruptors to fight a portion of my army. Do you suggest just mass cannon to protect bases? I suppose keeping the MSC around for overcharge helps too. First rule of thumb: MSC should ALWAYS be with your fleet, reason's simple: a void ray carrier fleet takes eons to build, and like a mech army losing over half of it is NOT an option. When you move out you need to be 100% sure that recall is an option. Always be aware your army, your msc and the enemy's rough positions and place your fleet between the enemy and msc(on different hotkey) to make sure you have a ticket home when things get rough. Always fly close to cliffs and deadspaces so even if viper pulls some carriers over the hydras theres still a chance of getting away. Btw overcharge is useful in early game and mid game deflecting small ling/roach/hydra/muta attacks, it will hardly do anything on its own vs a huge hydra force or the doom muta ball and keeping the msc around for recall is much better. I once did this stargate thing with mostly carriers while my opponent goes mutas. It got into a base race situation where his mutas mobility prevented me from engaging and he wont engage because my carriers will just straight up kill the mutas. A photon overcharge wouldve hardly done anything vs 25+mutas but fortunately my msc, by being with my fleet, allowed my to recall half of my fleet to safe my main at the last second while the other half continued hunting down bases and I narrowly won that game. In short, early on, overcharge>everything else, lategame, keep your msc with army for recall>overcharge Second rule of thumb: Get DTs! They are useful in dealing with ling run bys and complement a slow air army by being a useful distraction while your fleet gets into position to attack. Say if you wanna attack the rock expansion on akilon, you can send DTs to the fifth/third locations while your fleet get behind the rock expo, when the zerg forces reach the DTs, swiftly move in, ignore everything else and take out the hatch, then recall at the first sign of trouble. Mass cannon/gateway walls are also very good as they protect your carriers by blocking hydra movement and provide additional firepower vs corruptor(1 cannon dps= 0.6-0.7 carrier dps), the gateways of the wall can then be used to warp in DTs in short, use DTs both vs counter attacks and do counter attacks Third rule of thumb: Be aggressive, this is a curious concept that I've been experimenting with the immobile sky army: if you are being hyper aggressive(for an immobile army) with recall attacks(see above) and DT/zealot counters, the zerg will have to run around and stay defensive in fear of a carrier fleet appearing in a very odd angle, killing an expo and recalling without losses. Basically the threat of recall attacks and warp in counters are forcing the zerg to stay back. Another interesting thing about limiting zerg mobility is the use of revelation. When the zerg sees revelation on his units, he has to assume that the protoss knows where hes about to strike next, and therefore will be hesitant when moving out(because he doesnt want to lose his mobile/weak army to a slower/stronger army thats in a great position thanks to revelation). Usually they just stay back until revelation is gone, and 60 seconds is enough time for a recall attack to happen. Revelation isnt just about knowing where the opponent is(obs can do that too), its more about letting the enemy know that you know where he is, thus threatening him to not attack and nullifying the power of an mobile army. in short, the threat of being aggressive with recalls/DTs/revelation may cause the zerg to stay back the whole thing about using threats to nullify zerg mobility is still theory crafting at this point but it seems to have potential and it sounds way cooler than positioning and a moving  | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
On May 12 2013 15:32 oOOoOphidian wrote: I agree completely. I have no problem beating this build by simply delaying the third with many lings and pushing with a ton of hydras. It's simply not viable to take a third with only mothership core and 2 stargate void ray, completing ignoring gateway units. Here's a recent example that demonstrates almost exactly this scenario. http://drop.sc/331563 the thing is, can u stop the army combo? i feel like when 2 carriers came out, holding 3rd is not a problem. | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
On May 12 2013 20:28 iLevitate wrote: the thing is, can u stop the army combo? i feel like when 2 carriers came out, holding 3rd is not a problem. You cant hold your third with two carriers vs 12-14 minute hydra ling pushes. theres simply not enough firepower even with the photon overcharge to prevent the lings and hydras from taking the nexus out and assuming you have two carriers out already with +2 weapons half way done, you will only have 5-6 cannons at max at the third base, definitely not enough to hold the third. Ive lost countless third bases in this manner actually and I actually had to adjust my chrono usage so my upgrades will be slower but my third/forth carriers will arrive in time to hold this push. btw maybe shield upgrade will help a bit in keeping both the nexus and your fleet alive, you want shields for air anyway | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 12 2013 04:11 Crypdos wrote: No, just no. This isn't just as simple as herpderp lets fight my voidrays vs your mutas, loser leaves the game. 2base muta is more of an opener behind which you can make lots of drones, especially after scouting immobile voidrays. Saying 2base muta is a "build order loss" vs your build is very stupid. I don't think it's very stupid at all. This is a very passive build against which you could probably do 3 hatches before pool and max saturate all 3 bases on 4 zerglings. A 2-base build that makes combat units which can't break me is going to be massively inferior, guaranteed. The mutas can kill 15-20 probes and barely even slow the build down. It's mineral-light and gas heavy, once the third is down you start banking minerals like crazy. If mutas kill some probes it doesn't matter at all, I can just put surviving probes back in gas and continue like nothing happened. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 12 2013 22:05 uh-oh wrote: You cant hold your third with two carriers vs 12-14 minute hydra ling pushes. theres simply not enough firepower even with the photon overcharge to prevent the lings and hydras from taking the nexus out and assuming you have two carriers out already with +2 weapons half way done, you will only have 5-6 cannons at max at the third base, definitely not enough to hold the third. Ive lost countless third bases in this manner actually and I actually had to adjust my chrono usage so my upgrades will be slower but my third/forth carriers will arrive in time to hold this push. btw maybe shield upgrade will help a bit in keeping both the nexus and your fleet alive, you want shields for air anyway If your third goes down at 13-14 minutes you should have mined enough gas from it to continue like nothing happened. As long as you mine enough gas to get +3 and four carriers in production, you can lose the third after that. 4 stargates making void rays consumes 600 gas/minute, and you get almost that much from 4 geysers. This is why attacking the third with an early 3-base push makes Zerg lose, he loses a TON of units breaking it down and it barely slows you down. | ||
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