EPT[D] Warpgateless PvZ - Page 3
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 13 2013 06:02 dUTtrOACh wrote: I have to admit that being able to warp in a zealot to block a hole (particularly once you're over 2 bases) will save you damage that far outweighs the 50 gas cost of WG. I can definitely see how saving the 50 gas early on is handy but as the game draws on and the potential for run-by or drop harass becomes more threatening it becomes increasingly dangerous to simply ignore this very cheap upgrade. I'm really not a big fan of limiting my options against Zerg; their ability to transition en masse cannot be overlooked the deeper you get into a macro game. It's not the 50 gas cost that's the problem, it's the fact that it monopolizes your cybernetics core for three minutes, during which time you can't be researching upgrades. This build depends on the upgrade advantage to win, if Zerg finishes 3/3 ground or 2/2 air you are in serious trouble as his economy will be far superior. You can't delay your upgrades for warpgate. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
Other than that, I'm surprised I've never seen this before because it seems quite strong. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
I bet the only real reason people in masters or higher won with this, was because of the fact that no one does this, I mean you can do almost any build not currently in the meta game and win with it once or twice just to the fact that its a werid non common build and the first time someone faces it may be caught off. But vs someone who is good, if they scout a mass turtle protoss with no warp gate and opting for carrier/void rays with no storm, they will be happy to face this kind of skytoss with no problem at all. Infestor/corrupter/hydra/viper would melt this army easy with out storm/warpgate/colsi/ground army. Gl trying to gain expos with this, mass cannons wont secure you multi bases required to support a large skytoss army. Warpgate is 100% must storm is 100% must. Vs good players. Neat Idea but not very viable at all vs anyone good. at the time this hits, A good zerg will be maxed out with 4-5 bases with corrupter/hydra/infestor or viper with at least 2/2 upgrades easy. A good macro zerg won't bother to make swarm host vs this or "2 base muta or w/e you face" They will simply macro to heavy hydra/spire/infestor play and secure bases you won't be bale to do anything about with out warp gate. Carriers melt easy with focus fire, void rays melt to hydras easy with out storm support. most macro zergs are maxed with hydra by the 14/15 min mark with corrupters in the mix and possible infestor/vipers. I don't know what zerg you face who only max on 1 unit. Not to be mean, but the op sounds like you never faced a decent zerg who builds the correct unit comp. no one will max 200/200 on only hydra, once a zerg figures out you don't have warp gate/storm and only air, they will praise the lord and start making infestors. Infestors/vipers do SOOO well vs only air units at pulling/rooting them, while corrupter/hydra just owns everything in sec. If the zerg is on a split map vs this, they will start the mighty sporecrawler wall with vipers pulling in your air army easy. With out a strong Ground army with Colosi+storm, Sky toss is 100% useless period. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 13 2013 08:16 LingBlingBling wrote: Not geting warp gate and storm with sky toss vs zerg is just very dumb. A good zerg player won't lose to this. I bet the only real reason people in masters or higher won with this, was because of the fact that no one does this, I mean you can do almost any build not currently in the meta game and win with it once or twice just to the fact that its a werid non common build and the first time someone faces it may be caught off. But vs someone who is good, if they scout a mass turtle protoss with no warp gate and opting for carrier/void rays with no storm, they will be happy to face this kind of skytoss with no problem at all. Infestor/corrupter/hydra/viper would melt this army easy with out storm/warpgate/colsi/ground army. Gl trying to gain expos with this, mass cannons wont secure you multi bases required to support a large skytoss army. Warpgate is 100% must storm is 100% must. Vs good players. Neat Idea but not very viable at all vs anyone good. at the time this hits, A good zerg will be maxed out with 4-5 bases with corrupter/hydra/infestor or viper with at least 2/2 upgrades easy. A good macro zerg won't bother to make swarm host vs this or "2 base muta or w/e you face" They will simply macro to heavy hydra/spire/infestor play and secure bases you won't be bale to do anything about with out warp gate. Carriers melt easy with focus fire, void rays melt to hydras easy with out storm support. most macro zergs are maxed with hydra by the 14/15 min mark with corrupters in the mix and possible infestor/vipers. I don't know what zerg you face who only max on 1 unit. Not to be mean, but the op sounds like you never faced a decent zerg who builds the correct unit comp. no one will max 200/200 on only hydra, once a zerg figures out you don't have warp gate/storm and only air, they will praise the lord and start making infestors. Infestors/vipers do SOOO well vs only air units at pulling/rooting them, while corrupter/hydra just owns everything in sec. If the zerg is on a split map vs this, they will start the mighty sporecrawler wall with vipers pulling in your air army easy. With out a strong Ground army with Colosi+storm, Sky toss is 100% useless period. "Most" zergs either try to bust the third with an early attack, (at least 2/3 Zergs attempt to pressure the third with hydra/ling or hydra/roach) which doesn't work, or they assume you are macroing up to HT/Voidray/Tempest and end up wasting significant amounts of supply on infestors, swarm hosts, or ultralisks. The fact that the majority of Zergs try to bust your third is why the build is so successful. They don't want to play a long game against Toss air, so they do really bad attacks on your third and waste tons of resources and larvae on roaches and lings, so even when they kill the third you can just counterattack with your 6 carriers and win easily. Infestors are pretty useless against this build. Interceptors can attack out to 11 range, infestors can't get in to fungal without dying, and fungal doesn't do enough damage to kill your air before they run out of infestors. Hydra/viper crushes this if they're maxed out on it. I'm well aware of that. Most Zergs do not max on hydra/viper and just end up losing. Most macro Zergs will have totally wasted supply in a bunch of swarm hosts and/or ultralisks, and will not have enough hydras to kill your air even with abduct. Of the Zergs that actually DO max on hydra/viper, some do not micro in combat (they just attack move and abduct the carriers) which does not work. You have to abuse the fact that interceptor launch range is 8 and abduct range is 9, which means you can abduct a carrier, snipe it off with the hydras, and run away before the rest of the void rays and carriers can even get in range to attack back. If you don't have enough hydras to snipe the carrier you just abducted in like 2 volleys, the other air gets back into range and massacres everything before you can get away. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
I mean just the fact (if I read it correctly), that you assume you will be able to take a third off two void rays (???) is absurd. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
This build sounds like White-Ra style taken to the extreme. His 2 stargate carrier build off of 2 bases is incredibly good and this sounds like the natural extension of that build. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On May 13 2013 08:57 Xequecal wrote: "Most" zergs either try to bust the third with an early attack, (at least 2/3 Zergs attempt to pressure the third with hydra/ling or hydra/roach) which doesn't work, or they assume you are macroing up to HT/Voidray/Tempest and end up wasting significant amounts of supply on infestors, swarm hosts, or ultralisks. The fact that the majority of Zergs try to bust your third is why the build is so successful. They don't want to play a long game against Toss air, so they do really bad attacks on your third and waste tons of resources and larvae on roaches and lings, so even when they kill the third you can just counterattack with your 6 carriers and win easily. Infestors are pretty useless against this build. Interceptors can attack out to 11 range, infestors can't get in to fungal without dying, and fungal doesn't do enough damage to kill your air before they run out of infestors. Hydra/viper crushes this if they're maxed out on it. I'm well aware of that. Most Zergs do not max on hydra/viper and just end up losing. Most macro Zergs will have totally wasted supply in a bunch of swarm hosts and/or ultralisks, and will not have enough hydras to kill your air even with abduct. Of the Zergs that actually DO max on hydra/viper, some do not micro in combat (they just attack move and abduct the carriers) which does not work. You have to abuse the fact that interceptor launch range is 8 and abduct range is 9, which means you can abduct a carrier, snipe it off with the hydras, and run away before the rest of the void rays and carriers can even get in range to attack back. If you don't have enough hydras to snipe the carrier you just abducted in like 2 volleys, the other air gets back into range and massacres everything before you can get away. You just admitted your build loses to the correct response. Do you know what infestors do against carriers? They neural parasite your carriers or fungal your interceptors. If I played zerg and you did this I would take every base on the map and throw hydra infestor viper spine outside your base. You don't even have warpgate so good luck killing them. A few swarm hosts to keep your carriers busy while I spore up and then its time to abduct. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On May 13 2013 13:13 gobbledydook wrote: You just admitted your build loses to the correct response. Do you know what infestors do against carriers? They neural parasite your carriers or fungal your interceptors. If I played zerg and you did this I would take every base on the map and throw hydra infestor viper spine outside your base. You don't even have warpgate so good luck killing them. A few swarm hosts to keep your carriers busy while I spore up and then its time to abduct. Every build loses to the correct response. SC2 is a game of information, and this BO has an advantage because it's not well known and most Zerg players won't have the experience or game sense to know what to do against it. Thanks for the build, Mr. OP, I'm gonna try this out on ladder, am excited :D | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Now if zerg is going corruptors sure, but if they go hive at a good time the zerg should have 4 vipers out with full energy and just abduct carrier, retreat, repeat the process and as long as they keep macroing shouldn't lose to this even if they make swarmhosts. If zerg is making swarmhosts they should notice that you are doing heavy air anyway (they should be attacking your base and they will see air units). | ||
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zenkicker
257 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
When I go skytoss I still have trouble fending off 3 base hydra all-ins. This is the area where this build shines over the traditional FFE -> void -> fast 3rd -> 3 sg mass void build, since carriers are much better vs hydras than voids. For people saying that pure skytoss sucks, you need storm, etc. - this is just a mid game build, at this point you cannot safely afford to tech to anything else and it make sense to invest everything into an early strong air army. Obviously if it gets to late game you'd add ground, HT, etc. Along the same lines, the zerg can't afford to have an amazing hydra/corruptor/viper/infestor/sh army to counter it at this point in the game either. As someone who goes skytoss a lot in PvZ, I'm definitely going to try this out and see how it goes. So far after 2 games, I lost 1 to hydra/viper, and won 1 to hydra/roach (which is exactly as OP states should be). I'll experiment more with it and update how it goes! EDIT: Played with this a lot today. Carriers are so sick, I don't know why people love void rays so much when carriers are better than void rays against everything except corruptors - but who cares about corruptors, corruptors are really bad units because everything else in the toss army counters them. I'm definitely going to be using this style a lot (carriers + upgrades, not so much the lack of warpgates). | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On May 13 2013 20:06 rsvp wrote: I think the innovation in this build is actually the carriers rather than the lack of warpgate. In fact I don't agree with disregarding warpgates altogether, having the ability to warp in sentries and zealots is worth a lot more than slightly faster upgrades imo. When I go skytoss I still have trouble fending off 3 base hydra all-ins. This is the area where this build shines over the traditional FFE -> void -> fast 3rd -> 3 sg mass void build, since carriers are much better vs hydras than voids. For people saying that pure skytoss sucks, you need storm, etc. - this is just a mid game build, at this point you cannot safely afford to tech to anything else and it make sense to invest everything into an early strong air army. Obviously if it gets to late game you'd add ground, HT, etc. Along the same lines, the zerg can't afford to have an amazing hydra/corruptor/viper/infestor/sh army to counter it at this point in the game either. As someone who goes skytoss a lot in PvZ, I'm definitely going to try this out and see how it goes. So far after 2 games, I lost 1 to hydra/viper, and won 1 to hydra/roach (which is exactly as OP states should be). I'll experiment more with it and update how it goes! EDIT: Played with this a lot today. Carriers are so sick, I don't know why people love void rays so much when carriers are better than void rays against everything except corruptors - but who cares about corruptors, corruptors are really bad units because everything else in the toss army counters them. I'm definitely going to be using this style a lot (carriers + upgrades, not so much the lack of warpgates). agree with lots of this. I guess you can just try it yourself but i think in white ras youtube vods and twitch vods there are lots of 2 base carrier openings. I love the opening as with proper micro in the midgame its hard to overwhelm carriers with pure hydra, if he switches to corrupters you have void rays and if he does a muta switch you already have the fleat beacon for pheonix range. also doing 2 carrier harass with mothership core is really cool and can do a surprising amount of damage considering you can freely recall. | ||
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On May 13 2013 20:06 rsvp wrote: I think the innovation in this build is actually the carriers rather than the lack of warpgate. In fact I don't agree with disregarding warpgates altogether, having the ability to warp in sentries and zealots is worth a lot more than slightly faster upgrades imo. When I go skytoss I still have trouble fending off 3 base hydra all-ins. This is the area where this build shines over the traditional FFE -> void -> fast 3rd -> 3 sg mass void build, since carriers are much better vs hydras than voids. For people saying that pure skytoss sucks, you need storm, etc. - this is just a mid game build, at this point you cannot safely afford to tech to anything else and it make sense to invest everything into an early strong air army. Obviously if it gets to late game you'd add ground, HT, etc. Along the same lines, the zerg can't afford to have an amazing hydra/corruptor/viper/infestor/sh army to counter it at this point in the game either. As someone who goes skytoss a lot in PvZ, I'm definitely going to try this out and see how it goes. So far after 2 games, I lost 1 to hydra/viper, and won 1 to hydra/roach (which is exactly as OP states should be). I'll experiment more with it and update how it goes! EDIT: Played with this a lot today. Carriers are so sick, I don't know why people love void rays so much when carriers are better than void rays against everything except corruptors - but who cares about corruptors, corruptors are really bad units because everything else in the toss army counters them. I'm definitely going to be using this style a lot (carriers + upgrades, not so much the lack of warpgates). Question - are you doing this build as-is, sans warpgates? Or are you delaying upgrades and maybe adding a gateway or two, slowing down the upgrades but having a slightly safer third? -Cross | ||
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Flamm
Germany36 Posts
1. 4 VoidRay +1 don't crush 11 +0 Mutas, try it out. Even with the best focus fire, theres no chance to get a good trade 2. Any good Zerg will surprise with Mutas or deny the third for ages with a shitload of lings I have tried it several times and once you hit the numbers it's very powerful but 1300MMR + Zergs will just rape you before you get that far. I want to tinker around with it a bit and add a sentry for hallucination to scout the mutas and/or make 1 phoenix to trick the Zerg into thinking it's a standard Phoenix opening. Not sure if it works though | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 15 2013 03:39 Crosswind wrote: Question - are you doing this build as-is, sans warpgates? Or are you delaying upgrades and maybe adding a gateway or two, slowing down the upgrades but having a slightly safer third? -Cross No I didn't really follow the build as is, the more notable changes I made include getting warpgate first and slower upgrades, and continued probe production so I can be prepared for late game. I add some gateways to help wall my 3rd and they can be used to warp in zealots and sentries to help fend off attacks. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 15 2013 04:40 Flamm wrote: Your build and the information given is misleading....... 1. 4 VoidRay +1 don't crush 11 +0 Mutas, try it out. Even with the best focus fire, theres no chance to get a good trade 2. Any good Zerg will surprise with Mutas or deny the third for ages with a shitload of lings I have tried it several times and once you hit the numbers it's very powerful but 1300MMR + Zergs will just rape you before you get that far. I want to tinker around with it a bit and add a sentry for hallucination to scout the mutas and/or make 1 phoenix to trick the Zerg into thinking it's a standard Phoenix opening. Not sure if it works though The opening part of this build (void ray production out of first sg, fast 3rd) is pretty standard and has been commonly used in korean leagues. It's a big investment for the zerg to get a lot of speedlings that early to deny the 3rd, and while it's a valid tactic, it's definitely not a "counter." I do agree with you that scouting is important, personally I get 1 phoenix first and use that to scout. Any good protoss should not get surprised by mutas if they scout well. | ||
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
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Kontys
Finland659 Posts
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