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Hi TL,
I have come back from a month break and for TVT recently i switched to 1rax FE then 3 rax quick medivac drop. I have problems in defending any sort of 1 base quick banshee following by marine tank push to my front. the following two games i knew what exactly was coming, i still failed to defend. Banshee will drag your army to your main then they siege outside your base. I know my macro isn't perfect but this timing is just sick for 1rax FE to hold.
Replays
http://drop.sc/215670
http://drop.sc/215669
Thanks!
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United States22154 Posts
needs more self analysis to meet guidelines.
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Hi,
I made the observation that it's nearly impossible to defend this push with standar 1 rax expand into bio.
You have to make him lost time by forcing him to siege and make some counter attack to stop reinforcement but it still not
100% viable.
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more self analysis:
the problem for defending this is that his banshee will drag my attention to main base. Basically unless i put turrets everywhere in my main i would have to leave some of my marines in my main. If that's the case, i wouldn't have enough defence at my front. i would have needed all my marines and some SCVs to catch him unsiege and focus fire his tank.
this problem doesn't occur in 1 rax FE into mech as if you repair your bunker with your SCVs you can get siege mode fast enough with vikings you can defend this. but with 1rax into bio, i don't have enough force to defend banshee while prevent him from sieging in front of my base and break that contain. i don't see how i can break that even i get stim + medivac later..
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dont overcommit to defending the banshee, let it keep poking at your main and send minimal amounts of marines to die while getting turret + viking up. once you have 1 viking out you wont have to worry about it.
this lets you defend your front/delay his siege push by forcing him to leapfrog, DONT JUST LET HIM WALK TO YOUR NATURAL without having to stop 2 or 3 times.
your econ will be so much better if u keep making scvs out of your 2 cc's, so dont worry about worker losses. i've seen a 1rax FE come out equal vs really really good blueflame drop harass.
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try thorzains tvt 1 rax fe, its slightly different than the one you are using and gets up a eng bay up and running before the first banshee would arrive, so you will be more than prepared for it. also, take the tower and know when the tanks are coming, along with pull about 10 to 15 scvs if you dont think your marine count will deal with it properly. in addition, there is no shame in making more than 2 turrets, he has invested a lot of gas and time into his banshees, if you can moderate the damage they inflict, you will be ahead. also i like to get combat shield before stim as it will finish before the banshee arrives, making your marine much more sturdy against tanks and banshees. day 9 did a daily on it, the timings are pretty standard, eng bay at 620 fac at 650 etc. go to day9.tv/archives and search thorzain tvt. good luck!
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Imzoo wrote:
You have to make him lost time by forcing him to siege and make some counter attack to stop reinforcement but it still not
100% viable.
On July 07 2012 06:54 nath wrote:
this lets you defend your front/delay his siege push by forcing him to leapfrog, DONT JUST LET HIM WALK TO YOUR NATURAL without having to stop 2 or 3 times.
Do either of you have any replays (preferably of pro players) where the fast expanding player actually does this (successfully) against a tank push. I hear this advice a lot, but I've never had it work for me.
I find that I never actually want to be out on the map early vs a 1/1/1, as I just lose precious marines. You won't have stim yet so you can't get away from the seige tanks, and I just don't buy that you'll have enough marines to actually kill a marine tank banshee push anyway, especially if there's a few scvs there. So in the end, you're just wasting marines that you'll need when it does inevitably get to your natural and seige up.
I tend to find that waiting as long as possible works best (preferably until stim finishes, and / or you get a couple of tanks with seige mode + vikings, but at least until you have as good a marine count as you can get while he's crawling in), then pulling scvs (at least every scv from the natural), and a-moving allows you to overcome the seiged up position.
I'm more than happy to be proved wrong by replays etc. But otherwise, my rather contrary experience is that trying to delay the push doesn't work, and can be downright dangerous as you lose too many marines.
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Wait for stim and medivacs and drop 2 medivacs in his main and kill CC and you win while delaying his push with bunkers.
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scout...scout...scout...and don't forget to scout.
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From watching the replays and reading your analysis obviously your main problem is the multitasking (or is it multi-tasking? oh well lol) it takes to defend the banshee.
My advice would be to position your turrets better. On all the maps, atleast the ones i haven't vetod, you can completely stop a banshee fom harassing your main mineral with 2 turrets. I put one behind the mineral line and close to the refinery closest to the direction the banshee will most likely be coming from, the 2nd i put behind the mineral line again but this time about halfway between the mid point of the mineral line and the opposite end of the mineral line of your 1st turret (if that makes sense, can't figure out how to word it better lol).
This means he cant attack your SCVs and cant sneak around the back of your base. Quite often he will see the first turret and think he can get around it and then loses his banshee to the 2nd turret, the other outcome is he pulls back and trys to come around and hit your nat, so i usually have one turret there to near the refinery from which the banshee will come from.
So once you find good positioning for your turrets you dont have to worry about the banshee. You may be thinking 3 turrets is going to put you behind but really the a banshee + cloak costs 650 resources (150/100 + 200/200) and more often than not they will build a 2nd banshee making the total 800 resources which is the equivelent to 8 turrets. So you can put like 5 turrets down if you want to cover everything and still be safe, but 3 is usually enough, sometimes 4 to be 100% safe. 400 Resources + 0 micro vs 650 to 800 resources + micro, and still be safe sounds like a good deal to me.
Okay so now with 3/4 turrets you no longer have to worry about banshees so what about the push? Well it usually hits about 9:30 to 10:00 so ideally you want to be as strong as possible at this point. I've been playing around in YABOT and the two best solutions i could come up with with following the 1 rax FE into 3 rax and scanning with the naturals Orbitals first energy and having to put down 3 turrets in time for the banshee is as follows.
Plan A: (I think Plan B bellow is batter but here it is anyways)
Scan with Nat Orbitals starting energy
E-Bay then Tech Lab
Stim and +1 Attack (E-bay and Tech Lab should finish at the same time)
Cut Marine Production from all rax but continue SCV production
2 Turrets (Main)
Reactors on remaining Rax
1 Turret (Nat)
Factory
Start constant marine production again once reactors are done
Starport + Reactor on Factory
Swap Starport and Factory and pump double medivacs
Doing this the best i could manage was Stim and +1 Attack finishing at just before 9:30 and medivacs popping just before 10:00 with a total of 30-32 marines and 49 SCVs
Alternatively you can skip getting +1 attack for faster medivacs. I think this is a better option because your first 2 medivacs pop out at about 9:15 and you have 4 medivacs just before 10:00 with the same amount of marines and 1 or 2 more SCVs.
This way goes as follows:
Plan B:
Scan with Nat Orbitals starting energy
E-Bay then Tech Lab
Cut Marine production from all rax but continue SCV production
Stim + Factory (Tech lab should finish about same time as E-Bay)
3 Turrets
2 Reactors on Rax
Starport + Reactor on Factory
Take one refinery at natural
When Reactors finish start marine production again
Swap Starport and Factory and pump double medivacs
When Stim finishes start Combat Shields, which should be just after your 2 round of medivacs has started
This way your first 2 medivacs should pop at about 9:15 at which time you should have about 20 marines. So now you have the option to move out now and try and catch him midfield and unsieged (Remember to have a scan saved incase his banshees are still about). Alternatively you can wait until the next 2 medivacs pop and 10 more marines and try and crush him when hes at your base or even pull back up to your main as he is attacking your natural and pick up 2 boat loads of marines and drop his main while defending back home with the other 2 medivacs and half your marines or just go balls to the wall and pull back to your main and pick up all your marines in your 4 medivacs and drop his main and pretty much insta snipe his OC and everything else he has (but remember if this is your plan instead of building another 2 medivacs to total 6, queue up 2 vikings since this will basically be a base race so you may need the vikings incase he manages to lift off to try and cause a stale mate but i think with 30 marines and 4 medivacs you should clear out his base much faster than he clears out yours.
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if im going 1 rax fe ill always always pressure the 1,1,1 terran early on hands down. You might be able to do damage. get to his base fast if you feel he has low marine count/making bunker cut rine making drop 2 gas immediately, then go back to rine production and make a second rax after you make the factory. Drop the very next mule then SAVE mana for scans. after the fact is done get a port asap and make a viking asap. you can try to squeeze an ebay in there but its not necessary.
If you practice well then you wont have any problems with 1,1,1 players going fast banshee. At least this is what i have been doing against it.
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guys sorry for my late reply i'm still digesting what you guys're saying here. But EmpireKas just lost to Dragon on this build(timestamp = now) ..guys go watch the dragon's stream replay later. i will post a more detailed reply on my analysis later.
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The most important thing to do is to buy time, because with the usual 1 rax fe into medivac build you should be reinforcing quicker (more rax), and be waiting for important tech to finish. This includes stim and combat shield, +1 infantry attack and medivacs. Also, after you build the reactor on the factory to swap to the starport, you might want to go right into tanks and siege mode if affordable.
A few key things about control are:
1. to pull scvs, because with a push like this, it is all-in and as long as you don't lose a ridiculous amount of scvs and live through it, you will have a huge advantage
2. to hold position your marines before you actually try to break out because tank fire will draw many of them needlessly into their deaths.
Another great solution, as Beasty said above is to counterdrop and delay with bunkers and autorepairing scvs. They will have no answer for the healing of medivacs and stimmed marines, you will end any way for them to reinforce their main push, leaving them with just an army and no base.
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There was a great TvT youtube video basically explaining exactly how to defend the siege tank part of this push from a 1 rax fe. It's actually really easy, and pretty fail safe.
The key is making sure you have a bunker ready at your natural ramp. The bunker shouldn't be right at the edge of the ramp, but a few paces back. leave a scv or marine in front of your bunker so you know when the push is about to hit, then pull 4-5 scvs from your natural, set to auto repair, and right click on your bunker (they should stay behind the bunker). the scvs repairing will keep the bunker alive for a very long time (i think it takes maybe 4-5 tanks to eventually break it down). The enemy will try to move their viking or banshee to gain vision of the scvs to target them down, but the range of marines in a bunker will always be able to hit the viking or banshee as soon as it can see your scvs, so it should be very hard for him to actually take out your scvs repairing (if he runs his marines up they will be taken out very quickly too). I guess the only thing to be careful of here is if here went for cloak on his banshees, he might try taking your scvs out that way. So it would be worth keeping a scan or 2 ready for the push for this event aswell.
Throughout all of this you should carry on with the standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax stim and medivac timing. You should be able to get to all of this done before his tank count gets to be to much to break the bunker. As soon as you have stim + medivacs (and +1 or combat shields or both depending on build) you can rush down the ramp and you should take out his force very easily. It can even be worth bringing some scvs to tank some damage at this point as well, as your numbers will be so overwhelming you shouldn't actually lose to many. And having your second CC earlier than his will mean you wont suffer that much on scv count.
I hope his makes sense. If I could find the youtube video to link (and credit) to, that would be ideal. But hopefully this helps as well.
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On July 07 2012 07:35 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Wait for stim and medivacs and drop 2 medivacs in his main and kill CC and you win while delaying his push with bunkers.
This is great advice.
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EPT
