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I've been using the 3 Rax one base-ish strategy found on these forums for pretty much all my games up to 8 mins or so and it works really, really well vs. Protoss, but I found against Terran and Zerg it's less effective. I wanted to come up with something that only pumped Marines in the early game and moved out around 7:30 with Stim finishing when I arrive at their base. When I move out, my goal is to expand and get Factory/Starport going.
What I came up with after some time testing, which I think is really good, is the following:
Standard opening with gas until 15 Orbital/Marine
After first Marine, get Reactor
Depot then Rax when you can (17/18 supply-ish)
Take workers off gas @ 175
3rd Rax/Tech Lab immediately on 2nd
Stim immediately when Tech is done
Continuous pumping of Marines/Depots
This worked perfectly and resulted in only a few seconds total where I wasn't pumping Marines. Leaving guys in gas left me with ~350 floating and a few times where I didn't have enough minerals, so production wasn't optimal. After you move out, I'd put guys back on gas while building the CC and get the Factory/Starport ASAP.
At ~7:30 the regular 3 Rax that I'd been using resulted in Stim finished, Concussive about halfway done and ~11 Marines, 7 Marauders.
This build at ~7:30 gave me 29 marines and Stim @ 150/170.
To me this looks like a much better build vs. Zerg/Terran for a push at this timing. Stim finishes just in time to arrive at their base, we've set up 3 Rax pumping marines and can easily expand and get Fact/SP going (with a slight pause in Marine production, like the aforementioned build).
Sorry of this is a bad post structurally, but I just want some thoughts on what I came up with. I think it seems pretty strong for what my goals are, but I want to confirm that with those much more experienced with me. How's it look, thoughts?
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Why not try going for more than 1 base? The build filtersc uses in his Bronze To Master series makes so much sense and will put more strain on your macro, which will be awesome for higher leagues. It's basically 1rax expand into 2 more raxes, 1 factory and 1 starport... at 10 minutes, you can have 50 SCVs, about 100 supply, 2 medivacs and stim just finishing. It's ridiculously strong, yet not all-in at all, you can put down 2 more raxes as you push, or get a third at that time.
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On April 19 2012 18:09 Tobberoth wrote:
Why not try going for more than 1 base? The build filtersc uses in his Bronze To Master series makes so much sense and will put more strain on your macro, which will be awesome for higher leagues. It's basically 1rax expand into 2 more raxes, 1 factory and 1 starport... at 10 minutes, you can have 50 SCVs, about 100 supply, 2 medivacs and stim just finishing. It's ridiculously strong, yet not all-in at all, you can put down 2 more raxes as you push, or get a third at that time.
I can vouch for this. I'm a silver level terran and this build has made me macro at least the level of a high gold. My money is so low up till the 10 minute mark. I only lost with this push to a zerg that (after watching the replay) was obviously smurfing/below his actual level (150 apm, good injects= not really silver level). Other times I lost was when someone 4 gated/rushed me which hits the time when you don't have enough units. If you excecute the build well you'll have:
- 100-110 supply (I've gotten to 113 max without supply blocks)
- 52 scv's
- stim 10 seconds away
- 2 medivacs that just finished
You can a-move over anyone below gold with this (maybe just stim when you arrive at his base).
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I'll definitely look into that, the reason I'm avoiding a 2 base build is because my macro is poor once I get to 2 bases and I'm trying to get it solid with one. I have probably less than 50 ladder games played, and even though I feel my one base macro is pretty decent, I'd like it to be perfect before I start with 2 base builds (which is what I usually hear recommended).
Any thoughts on the build I posted?
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honestly dude in silver/gold you don't need to worry about playing standard lategame yet. I really think 2basing comes along with mastering a much longer game, which also involves a lot more dedication to the game. If you arent playing professionally, then you arent playing enough games to make it matter to play such a long game at your league. i know a lot of players here say 'skill' comes from going for a standard build vs standard build and outmacroing your opponent until gm, but really a lot of refinement has to happen to be truly good at the game. it's a vicious cycle, people value macro games due to popular opinion, so people get good at macro, so they value macro games, etc. honestly a lot of pro players agree that a win within 5 minutes at a major tournament is just as valuable as a win at 45 mins. that being said, a cheese that wins you games on the ladder because it is nearly never beaten when not scouted is useless in a best of 3/5/7 at a tourney, so ladder does have some differences. not to mention the matter that it's impossible when beginners train to focus on everything that happens at 45 mins into a game when you only play a few hours a day and are still learning. it really works well to work on specific mechanics with a good early timing push build and not worry about playing games where you macro endgame armies and bases. If you can never miss a depot until you hit your timing then you're doing great, and only when you move on as a player your goal is to hit 200/200 and not miss a depot. you can add longer-game strategy and goals as you add more builds over time and as your reach specific short term mechanics goals. i know you can hit diamond/masters with this, and if you hit gm and win tournaments because you can play a ton of builds and can read your opponent then you're much better off compared to a typical player who hits masters by just going straight 1rax fe bio ball vs toss and then gets stuck and never moves on. you're going to be able to outplay cheese if you can do more than 1a your army and not miss your macro. getting a new build down takes a few days of work to get the base macro if you're already good and are really into the game, but worry about that at masters. until then, dont worry about what build it is, just get your mechanics down. if you really need a specific build (as now re-reading the OP that is what it seems you want) then i really recommend checking out the last day9 (445 i think) on tvp, where he 6raxes. as for the other matchups i would try any strong early/mid game focused build you see that; i suppose- at least usually relies on you being better than your opponent, rather than your opponent messing up or not scouting it. i've heard wonderful things about cloaked banshees or hellion harass, etc. because i'm not positive on the benefits of your exact timings, i wont comment, other then to say that it seems like developing newer builds works better at a higher skill level.
(full disclosure - this is simply the mentality that i'm training with, because i have researched and believe it to be true. i dont claim to be top gm or anything myself.)
edit - case in point, a popular opinion on how to get good; an opinion i disagree with.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 19 2012 18:57 Sennin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 18:09 Tobberoth wrote:
Why not try going for more than 1 base? The build filtersc uses in his Bronze To Master series makes so much sense and will put more strain on your macro, which will be awesome for higher leagues. It's basically 1rax expand into 2 more raxes, 1 factory and 1 starport... at 10 minutes, you can have 50 SCVs, about 100 supply, 2 medivacs and stim just finishing. It's ridiculously strong, yet not all-in at all, you can put down 2 more raxes as you push, or get a third at that time. I can vouch for this. I'm a silver level terran and this build has made me macro at least the level of a high gold. My money is so low up till the 10 minute mark. I only lost with this push to a zerg that (after watching the replay) was obviously smurfing/below his actual level (150 apm, good injects= not really silver level). Other times I lost was when someone 4 gated/rushed me which hits the time when you don't have enough units. If you excecute the build well you'll have: - 100-110 supply (I've gotten to 113 max without supply blocks) - 52 scv's - stim 10 seconds away - 2 medivacs that just finished You can a-move over anyone below gold with this (maybe just stim when you arrive at his base). you're not going to improve your skill by 'improvising' when you dont have any game knowledge to back your decisions and when you dont have any mechanics to actually execute your plans. hit diamond/masters, then take a bigger bite of the challenge.
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On April 19 2012 19:03 sircuddles wrote:
I'll definitely look into that, the reason I'm avoiding a 2 base build is because my macro is poor once I get to 2 bases and I'm trying to get it solid with one. I have probably less than 50 ladder games played, and even though I feel my one base macro is pretty decent, I'd like it to be perfect before I start with 2 base builds (which is what I usually hear recommended).
Any thoughts on the build I posted?
I can't give too much of an opinion on your build, I'm not very good as terran. However, I don't think it matters. If you like it, I'm sure it works great (strategy doesn't matter in low leagues etc etc). It's all about macro regardless, if you have perfect macro on 1base, you should be beating at least silver players no matter what build you use, you could probably use only marines without any upgrades and you would still have a good win percentage. If you feel you've made the opening better against some races, just go with it and perfect it and you'll win.
My advice to you is to put the whole creating a better build, changing strategy etc on hold until you are more comfortable with your macro. Even if you come up with a sick 1base build, it will only take you so far... where as if you go for stable 2base play, you'll quickly notice that you can improvise and still win easily... when you're at the point that you can get 50 SCVs by 10 minutes, you can decide yourself what to spend your money on and it will automatically be good, because you're not bound by timings etc like you are on 1base. I think you will find, as your fundamentals get more rigid, that you're enjoying the game more because you're not bound by builds etc to play well.
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As a platinum player let me say this:
You can identify a gold or lower player by their poor execution of a build order. As soon as a player executes a reasonable build order with any mechanical competence, he's in platinum, particularly if it incorporates a timing attack of any kind. Just pick anything and do it well...
Further, if I was serious about hitting diamond I'd drill one build per matchup after studying the MLG championship replays, and with some refinement I'd hit diamond no problem. That just bores me, and I have too much school work... xp But really, a diamond player is just a gold player with more experience and a few very refined builds/strategies.
not kidding, but nobody's gonna listen to me.
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well, your build works well against a protoss who is staying on gateway units. sure if you catch his army out of position it could spell disaster. depending upon map, choke size to his natural and his sentry count your push would do damage or even win. especially at lower levels.
against a terran I still feel its based around tank count and air superiority. If a terran is playing standard than you would just be running your army into some sieged tanks. which isnt good. force you to pull back and he's likely already taken his natural with a bunker(s) to greet you. which your cc would still be building. which would put you behind. you can go for drops, maybe have some success or not. terrans love those planetarys at the 3rd and later, so it just seems rough to pull off. might have to go for some hopeful contain while you rush a third up after just taking your 2nd to get ahead while you threaten to drop if he moves out early. I know i'm theory crafting, its late.
against a zerg, bio can spell nasty things when thats all you are working with. while its been done, i believe there are more effective builds that just punish the typical muta/ling zerg. like the hellion/marauder push off two bases. while it is a all-in, a vasty matority of zergs love to get the mutas out and often rush to three bases to get it (gas off the third is essential for mutas to get higher count). the other cool thing i find about this build is i am also ok if a zerg loves to pump out roaches.  say hi to the marauders. oh whats that? banelings are cool to  sorry i'm tired ggyo
this is a below masters viewpoint and i'm only judging off my experiences on ladder.
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Im using the 3rax build and keep losing against P because of FF. How are you dealing with this?
Also in TvT the 3rax is olny good if you arrive before siege or cloak.
Against Z with banelings you need to micro you marauders and its possible.
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First a little thing about the build... you can actually get away with building the 2nd Rax and the Reactor before the 2nd Depot. That way Stim will finish about 30 seconds earlier, but the Marine counts should stay quite much the same (~29 at 7:30).
In TvP, if the P hasn't expanded when your push arrives, you have to be very cautious with pushing up the ramp. If your force gets cut in half by FFs, you're in trouble. You might want to retreat, expand and tech up.
In TvT, well yeah... sieged tanks are nasty, but he probs hasn't expanded then either, so same as in TvP.
TvZ is a tough call imo. First thing I usually run into is that the Zerglings are more out on the map, so I usually have to stim now and can't stim again, when going into his base. CombatShield is a valid option here. You can push a minute earlier and the marines live longer against the Zerglings. Also most Zergs I'm matched against will expand very early and defend the natural with some spines and zerglings (if I haven't met them on the map already), which is somewhat hard to break, imo.
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Russian Federation164 Posts
Why don't you try LastShadow's TvP 6 rax 0 gas opening?
Maybe he has similar TvZ/TvT stuff...
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On April 19 2012 21:44 Elefes wrote:
Why don't you try LastShadow's TvP 6 rax 0 gas opening?
Maybe he has similar TvZ/TvT stuff...
If you read the tread you would know that the OP is working on 1 base builds now. LS build uses a 15 CC.
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if you dont mind going hellions in TvZ double reactor hellion will get you to diamond in TvZ. couple of my friends got into diamond with their TvZ being their top match up with this build
just make sure to build a lot of depots to keep up with hellion production
do a regular reactor hellion opening but after your first factory + reactor get another factory + reactor. after that pump 4 hellions a time build 2 supply at a time and hit with 6-10 hellions. rally with your hellions to somewhere close to their front door and gg make sure your using your barracks to build the reactors then switching
once that build stops working you can go reactor hellion into cloak banshee.
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On April 19 2012 18:05 sircuddles wrote:
I've been using the 3 Rax one base-ish strategy found on these forums for pretty much all my games up to 8 mins or so and it works really, really well vs. Protoss, but I found against Terran and Zerg it's less effective. I wanted to come up with something that only pumped Marines in the early game and moved out around 7:30 with Stim finishing when I arrive at their base. When I move out, my goal is to expand and get Factory/Starport going.
What I came up with after some time testing, which I think is really good, is the following:
Standard opening with gas until 15 Orbital/Marine
After first Marine, get Reactor
Depot then Rax when you can (17/18 supply-ish)
Take workers off gas @ 175
3rd Rax/Tech Lab immediately on 2nd
Stim immediately when Tech is done
Continuous pumping of Marines/Depots
This worked perfectly and resulted in only a few seconds total where I wasn't pumping Marines. Leaving guys in gas left me with ~350 floating and a few times where I didn't have enough minerals, so production wasn't optimal. After you move out, I'd put guys back on gas while building the CC and get the Factory/Starport ASAP.
At ~7:30 the regular 3 Rax that I'd been using resulted in Stim finished, Concussive about halfway done and ~11 Marines, 7 Marauders.
This build at ~7:30 gave me 29 marines and Stim @ 150/170.
To me this looks like a much better build vs. Zerg/Terran for a push at this timing. Stim finishes just in time to arrive at their base, we've set up 3 Rax pumping marines and can easily expand and get Fact/SP going (with a slight pause in Marine production, like the aforementioned build).
Sorry of this is a bad post structurally, but I just want some thoughts on what I came up with. I think it seems pretty strong for what my goals are, but I want to confirm that with those much more experienced with me. How's it look, thoughts?
You might be able to sharpen this a little bit by starting your refinery at 14 rather than 13 and/or building rax #2 before supply depot #2.
EDIT: I came up from silver using the same 3rax build (now diamond T) and encountered the same issues. I'm not sure switching to pure marines really solves that many problems for you. The way this will help you is that you're attacking before T can get tanks up and Z can get banelings morphed. However, adjusting to difficulty by attacking earlier is just moving you more and more in the cheesy direction. A better way to adjust to situations where the 3 rax doesn't win outright is to recognize it before you lose your army, and have a follow-up planned.
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On April 19 2012 23:40 kyun. wrote:if you dont mind going hellions in TvZ double reactor hellion will get you to diamond in TvZ. couple of my friends got into diamond with their TvZ being their top match up with this build just make sure to build a lot of depots to keep up with hellion production do a regular reactor hellion opening but after your first factory + reactor get another factory + reactor. after that pump 4 hellions a time build 2 supply at a time and hit with 6-10 hellions. rally with your hellions to somewhere close to their front door and gg make sure your using your barracks to build the reactors then switching once that build stops working you can go reactor hellion into cloak banshee.
What if the Z goes roach or muta?... gg
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On April 20 2012 01:18 SiX451EU wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 23:40 kyun. wrote:if you dont mind going hellions in TvZ double reactor hellion will get you to diamond in TvZ. couple of my friends got into diamond with their TvZ being their top match up with this build just make sure to build a lot of depots to keep up with hellion production do a regular reactor hellion opening but after your first factory + reactor get another factory + reactor. after that pump 4 hellions a time build 2 supply at a time and hit with 6-10 hellions. rally with your hellions to somewhere close to their front door and gg make sure your using your barracks to build the reactors then switching once that build stops working you can go reactor hellion into cloak banshee. What if the Z goes roach or muta?... gg
Mutas won't be out in time, and you roast their entire worker line + base. If they go roaches, you just over run them with hellions. They have to fully dedicate to roaches + sim city + queens blocking ramps + spines, which just isn't there at lower level play.
Hellions aren't great against roaches, but 10-16 hellions against a low number of roaches can spell an easy victory. Not to mention you can just bypass the roaches and roast workers. In the mean time, lift a fac off reactor, put rax on reactor, land fac with tech lab, make tank + siege, and marines + 1-2 bunkers.
Safe against counter attacks from roaches.
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On April 19 2012 18:57 Sennin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 18:09 Tobberoth wrote:
Why not try going for more than 1 base? The build filtersc uses in his Bronze To Master series makes so much sense and will put more strain on your macro, which will be awesome for higher leagues. It's basically 1rax expand into 2 more raxes, 1 factory and 1 starport... at 10 minutes, you can have 50 SCVs, about 100 supply, 2 medivacs and stim just finishing. It's ridiculously strong, yet not all-in at all, you can put down 2 more raxes as you push, or get a third at that time. I can vouch for this. I'm a silver level terran and this build has made me macro at least the level of a high gold. My money is so low up till the 10 minute mark. I only lost with this push to a zerg that (after watching the replay) was obviously smurfing/below his actual level (150 apm, good injects= not really silver level). Other times I lost was when someone 4 gated/rushed me which hits the time when you don't have enough units. If you excecute the build well you'll have: - 100-110 supply (I've gotten to 113 max without supply blocks) - 52 scv's - stim 10 seconds away - 2 medivacs that just finished You can a-move over anyone below gold with this (maybe just stim when you arrive at his base).
this could have been me if you are on NA xD
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Like Burning ranger said, you should get the second rax before the depot and you would get supply block since you will only be at 16 or 17 food and only need to build scv, this way you can get the tech lab and stim faster.
I have done 2 rax reactor tech lab expand build in the past (when i noob) so is similar to yours but with less marines (and an extra cc:} ) so maybe my experience can help :p
For terran,
Fast expand
They will need bunker to hold off your push so if they didnt scout it coming, they will lose instantly or have to sack plenty of scvs. The key to victory is that you will have to keep him in the dark for as long as possible so spreadout building placement so they dont get scan at once, clearing xelnaga tower with small force, position small force of marines to kill his scout etc. I only remember one game where i didnt breakthrough when the terran has 3 bunkers with scvs pull, i end up focusing down as many scvs as i can and was slightly behind.
One base
Fore me, the most important thing against a one base terran is to have one scan save at your cc. The most common one base build that i face are fast tanks, cloak/uncloak banshees and hellions. If you are lucky, sometimes they will be moving out around the same time as you and usually your pure marines will roll over their force. For tanks and hellions, it is very dangerous to just run up the ram, this is where the scan is useful as you can pick off the tanks/hellions/units before moving up. The scan is important against cloak banshees as they kill marines pretty fast. Usually they will have no more than 2 tanks or 2 cloak banshees so if you snipe those you win.
For Zerg,
Usually, i will also bring 2-4 scvs to build bunkers with the push. The best place to place the bunkers is below the ram between their 2 bases. Usually zerg will only have pure lings, ling banelings or ling roach at this point with a few spine crawlers. Usually they wont have too many banelings at this point so you can focus them down. Stutterstep also helps keep the marines alive longer.
And if zerg is still one base by the 5 minute mark, dont move out and build bunker at your ram. Scout for hidden base.
For protoss,
Saving one scan is also important against protoss. fast expand protoss, you will want to scan the ram before moving into the protoss base and try to snipe the sentries with the scan. Usually if they run out of forcefield, they lose.
Against one base protoss, i think 1 base terran usually have the advantage. If they went for DT rush, you will just win with your scan. You can easily hold off void ray zealots allin with a bit of stutterstep. Usually you can also hold 4 gate but I remember a couple of games where my opponent 4 gate and it turn into weird base trade situations so be prepared to liftoff your buildings
As for other advice, you will want to avoid overstimming if possible, only stim when you engage their units. I think you can easily reach plat or even low diamond if you execute well. If you reach plat, you might want to add a CC though :p
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EPT
