|
ZvZ: 10 Pool Baneling
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/10_Pool_Baneling_(vs._Zerg)
I just added this page to Liquipedia using data from CheckPrime's two games in GSL August.
I apologize for such a short post (as almost everything is covered in the liquipedia link), but I don't feel comfortable offering this as a guide because I have only executed the build myself once or twice, and not recently.
I'd like some feedback and general thoughts on this build and if anyone has additional replays to add.
I'm particularly interested in how this stacks up to 14/14 or other non hatch first builds, but I went ahead and added it anyway because someone requested it in another thread and Liquipedia doesn't have enough builds on there  .
Thanks for any replies.
|
I have used this build several times in SCR tournaments online, and from my experience it is very map dependent. When I get back to my desktop I should be able to post several replays to demonstrate this. I particularly like it on a map like xel naga or maps where zergs feel very safe going hatch first.
|
Never heard of 10 Pool Bling, I have done 10 Pool Speedling. This seems very intresting as I get alot of ZvZs and I don't get much time to play this could be perfect for me when I don't want to play 5+ ZvZs a day.
The only thing I don't like about the build is not Drone scouting which isn't a big deal in ZvZ anyways. My question is how could you hold this? Queens blocking ramp wouldn't be out in time would they? Depending on the map a standard 14/14 would be popping Lings about time you get there correct?
I will give this a shot when I get to play, it seems like another auto-win build vs 15 Hatch so I won't be 15 Hatching untill I figure this build out, When you get a chance post some replays of you or other players as I don't feel like watching a Gsl Zerg is an effective way to gauge a rush as most games on there they expect standard 15 Hatch.
|
Some replays would be real nice.
|
On September 15 2011 00:04 cpu wrote:
Some replays would be real nice.
there are three in the bottom of the wikipedia link
|
Thx for that I have seen the VOD's.
I would like to see a couple replays for execution and true BO.
I am only a Gold Zerg so any replay would be helpful.
|
Dont forget that it's also 10 times more effective as no pro drone-scouts. So if you can avoid the overloards you can catch them by surprise even if they 14/14.
It's an all-in that can work if you dont get scouted
|
I have tried this a couple times and its not all that effective if the zerg knows how to split Drones. However I did do enough econ damage to win the game. I will mess around with it a few more games and see how it works but really 14/14 seems better in all ways as well as 6-10 pool.
|
On September 16 2011 21:23 -Dustin- wrote:
I have tried this a couple times and its not all that effective if the zerg knows how to split Drones. However I did do enough econ damage to win the game. I will mess around with it a few more games and see how it works but really 14/14 seems better in all ways as well as 6-10 pool.
yeah my baneling micro isn't great since I only play around 100apm and usually try to stray away from ling bling fights when I can help it. I really feel like it's an even match against 14/14 though when you engage and just comes down to whomever has better micro will win the game. That said, if it were true (and I believe it is, but I'm not a pro gamer), then why don't we see pros doing this much more often, rather than only three times in the past 6 months in ZvZs in GSL? (It could be more than that, but I don't recall another game with 10 pool baneling used other than the 3 linked in the liquipedia article).
|
In my current understanding of the MU (25 percentile KR master) this build is optimal (on massive maps) against a build range composed of 14g14p speedling expand and hatch first without drone scout.
I haven't used that build much at all [like 4 times in the last 1/2 year] so I can't think of the exact elements of a top zerg's range that it has the highest win rate against and in what exact setting... this is something i need to learn. If any good zergs can provide this information I'd appreciate it.
|
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out.
|
I encountered this so many times I tried to come up with an efficient tactic against it. The result was 11 pool(11 overpool, then first ovie). You can get 2 queens out by the time they get the banelings. I also found it necessary to extnd the creep with my first queen, trying to get it as close to the ramp as possible. There you can block about anything, from roach rush to ling rush to this tactic, by only building a couple of spines near the ramp. Works on all the maps, but you should only use it on maps that have a choke to the expansion, in order to keep a good economy. Gas doesn't even become an issue early, so you can even build a macro hatch in-base, so you can have more drone production and whatnot. The choke can be blocked with evo chambers, and then just position the spines behind those. It's quite a tight defense.
Btw Masters player here.
|
On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out.
He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead.
|
On September 16 2011 22:22 wGbNykur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out. He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead.
It beats certain elements of a typical zvz range and loses to others, assuming perfect micro on each side. It's not helpful in identifying the range that 10 pool bane is successful against - the main piece of useful information - by simply saying "a good player splits... way ahead".
|
2 zergs used it today vs me, i was trying out AXA's 9 pool into 3 queens, worked out prefect! One time my lings was at his base, while he had sent them to my base. So I killed all his drones before he had morphed his banes at my main. Second game I ran back to base with my lings and had 2 queens by the time the banes were ready (after that I just went roaches and won eventually).
|
Hey,I said I would post a replay and i have it now.
Just finished a game where i opened a version of 10 pool bannling, and the opponent scouted it right away. However, I was able to do moderate economic damage while forcing spine crawlers and an overcommitment to units. This allowed me to get more drones, an earlier safe expansion, and then earlier 3 gases to start my roach upgrades.
I think it is important to note that if the opponent scouts your 10 pool banling, you do not want to overcommit your larva or gas to the engagement. You just want to force extra defense and do some economic damage while droning up.
Things that I was looking for while I was playing:
1. I had to see how many roaches he was making after I decided to expand. I sent in an overlord to see how many he was popping out, and if i saw more I would have forgone the lair, got more roaches, and got 2 spines.
2. I saw the expansion and a few roaches, so i assumed his gas was going somewhere (most likely infestors eventually). This gave me a chance to start upgrades.
3. When he got infestors on the field, I knew I could not fight him straight up. I took out his back rocks, so i would be able to use my greater number of roaches to counter attack, and my inbase third to resupply the front while burrow microing.
If anyone would like to practice with me add me on my other account orion.1744 (mid diamond). would love to work out some specifics
http://www.mediafire.com/?hupcp57hkm7aelg
|
Why did people message you to add a replay quickly because they want to discuss it, and then they don't message you back?
|
"error downloading file" - you might want to repost it.
If we're looking for general thoughts I personally think that this build is pretty trashy, I don't think it even matters if the build is scouted or not as you always stand a chance against banes, even if you only spot them as they approach your ramp. This is because banelings move a lot slower than drones, slowlings and of course, speedlings so I think you only want to consider this build if you feel that your micro really is superior to your opponent.
Sure, you can probably win a lot of games using this build but this will be due to mistakes on your opponent's part as opposed to your own excellence.
If you want to play an early game war and your micro and multitasking is excellent I would suggest that +1 melee or carapace lings is a more solid build. This is because it is more effective against roaches, having a +1 is better for the mid-game and you can micro against ling/bane because you will be winning the war of attrition whenever the lings are engaging. If you go for cara then your lings also survive one baneling detonation, although its a little more tricky to sneak that 50 extra gas into a build. Conversely +1 melee will kill roaches and drones more quickly.
For reference: I'm only platinum but I figure early game experiences are relatively even across the top 40% of the player base.
|
Pretty sure I had an easy time beating this build just recently, with a standard 11 overpool, with enough speedlings to defend, followed with a safe expo. Put a spine by the ramp base, stayed ahead and killed him with my first roach/hydra push.
If you don't snipe a couple banes and just let them blast all your lings, then yeah, it can be a deadly rush. Otherwise, it's just a slow-econ 10 pool, since you're going to need the vespane.
|
GSL spoiler: 10 pool banelings vs 14gas 13 pool
+ Show Spoiler +AOL Semis DongRaeGu vs July game 3: Result: + Show Spoiler +July engages in what seems like a pretty even fight, and then a followup "even" fight where he mismicros some banes costing him the game.
Good example showing at least in my opinion how even 10 pool baneling vs 14/13 (or 14/14) is in engagement. It really seems to just come down to who micros better.
|
On September 16 2011 22:22 wGbNykur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out. He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead.
This is pretty much right on.
10 pool banes, or any early pool into bane build (or any early pool build in general) is going to do very well against hatch first.
But against anything else, the baneling player is going to find himself quite behind unless he gets really luck with some baneling detonations.
Unlike 14/14, early pool into banes can't really sustain baneling production after the initial attack, so if you're not able to win the game with it, be prepared to get wrecked by speedling/baneling, or even speedling/roach off of a stronger eco than what you're running.
Also, to the gold league guy that's asking questions about this build: don't waste your time bro.
Learn to play standard and you'll be much better off.
|
On October 02 2011 20:25 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 22:22 wGbNykur wrote:On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out. He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead. This is pretty much right on. 10 pool banes, or any early pool into bane build (or any early pool build in general) is going to do very well against hatch first. But against anything else, the baneling player is going to find himself quite behind unless he gets really luck with some baneling detonations. Unlike 14/14, early pool into banes can't really sustain baneling production after the initial attack, so if you're not able to win the game with it, be prepared to get wrecked by speedling/baneling, or even speedling/roach off of a stronger eco than what you're running. Also, to the gold league guy that's asking questions about this build: don't waste your time bro. Learn to play standard and you'll be much better off.
I don't think there's really much luck in it at all. Through the replays I've seen, against 14/14 I think if you win the fight, you are ahead and/or win the game outright. If you lose the fight, you're behind. I think it's a solid cheese to learn and it's definitely mechanics dependent, but I don't really feel like 14/14 has some tangible advantage over 10 pool baneling in the actual engagement itself.... seems like it's very even and dependent on who has better micro.
And you don't have to use the banes to kill the drones, just the army. Using the banes to get the drones to split is an excellent tactic to enable zerglings to snipe off groups of units while being defended by any surviving banes + Show Spoiler + as seen in G5 of that same series
I definitely agree that it's not something you should spend time on though in gold league . I wish I had taken that kind of advice when I was learning this game. It set me pretty far behind for a while...
|
I've had top master players open with 10pool styles and then use banelings defensively to secure an expansion (2queens to wall ramp). And transition into fast muta and actually win a macro game so keep in mind if you perfect your 10pool timings and game-sense, it's not an all in.
|
Yeah, like the guy above me said, shouldn't you use the banes to kill lings and the lings to use drones?
(I don't know how many lings you actually will have though)
|
so what happens if the opponent puts a spine up? that is what has been happening to me and it's just autoloss it seems like.
|
This build is basically an auto loss to a well microed 14g14p, this build is designed to kill hatch first (possibly does ok against a regular 10 pool or 10 pool speed as well?).
|
On October 08 2011 13:27 Stormstealth wrote:
This build is basically an auto loss to a well microed 14g14p, this build is designed to kill hatch first (possibly does ok against a regular 10 pool or 10 pool speed as well?).
Equal micro withstanding, I really feel it's a toss-up, but it definitely comes down to who micros better.
I've still yet to see a pro-level rep of 10 pool baneling beating a 14/14, but the sample size is small, and the few games that have been played looked to come down merely to micro (or mis-micro).
On October 08 2011 13:16 kushm4sta wrote:
so what happens if the opponent puts a spine up? that is what has been happening to me and it's just autoloss it seems like.
No one would spine against this because you won't see it coming until it's happening if you hatch first, and it won't be completed (while costing you 6 vital lings) if you do see it coming.
If the aggressor is good at masking his early lings (i.e. sending them through opponent's overlord at the 14/14 timing (~3:30 off ramp) spine crawler would be a non-factor.
I guess against an early drone scout or close air position maps it would be possible, but then why would you choose this build on something like close shattered where you know your opponent's location before you pool?
|
On October 02 2011 22:05 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 20:25 MrBitter wrote:On September 16 2011 22:22 wGbNykur wrote:On September 16 2011 21:52 -Dustin- wrote:
I would assume its not used much because the micro is in favor of the defender. As all they have to do is split their drones into groups of 1-2 and you won't have enough banelings to trade and be ahead. Also Drones are faster than Banelings if I recall so if they see it coming just run them around while lings target down the Blings.
As I said I'm not done messing around with it, it has potential but I believe it will die out as it will be figured out. He is entirely correct. A good player just splits the drones and then he's way ahead. This is pretty much right on. 10 pool banes, or any early pool into bane build (or any early pool build in general) is going to do very well against hatch first. But against anything else, the baneling player is going to find himself quite behind unless he gets really luck with some baneling detonations. Unlike 14/14, early pool into banes can't really sustain baneling production after the initial attack, so if you're not able to win the game with it, be prepared to get wrecked by speedling/baneling, or even speedling/roach off of a stronger eco than what you're running. Also, to the gold league guy that's asking questions about this build: don't waste your time bro. Learn to play standard and you'll be much better off. I don't think there's really much luck in it at all. Through the replays I've seen, against 14/14 I think if you win the fight, you are ahead and/or win the game outright. If you lose the fight, you're behind. I think it's a solid cheese to learn and it's definitely mechanics dependent, but I don't really feel like 14/14 has some tangible advantage over 10 pool baneling in the actual engagement itself.... seems like it's very even and dependent on who has better micro. And you don't have to use the banes to kill the drones, just the army. Using the banes to get the drones to split is an excellent tactic to enable zerglings to snipe off groups of units while being defended by any surviving banes + Show Spoiler + as seen in G5 of that same series . I definitely agree that it's not something you should spend time on though in gold league . I wish I had taken that kind of advice when I was learning this game. It set me pretty far behind for a while...
I've been trying the strat a bit - if you lose the fight you've lost the game. You didn't get a queen and are on 10 drones (13 produced, 1 for each of pool/gas/nest)
Even if you manage to take him down to 8 drones he can drone up much faster because he has a queen.
That being said at my level (high masters, ~1500) I can still beat people 10p baneling vs 14g/14p... but I imagine at top levels you can't if the player micros properly.
Also very cheesy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
