Earlier I was watching MLG and I think it was Husky who said a thor could solo the other players army. This got me thinking, most players go BFH/viking early game TvT. I quickly put together a 1 base TvT build which hits at 8.30 (map dependant) with 5-6 marauders, 3 BFH's and 1 thor + 6 scvs to repair.
Looking at meching replays, this would wreck everything they have at this time. I am not really high enough level (mid-high diamond) and do not have good TvT practice partners to validate this works at a high level. But it looks to be a good counter to the current TvT style.
Are there any immediate problems/counters anyone can see to this?
Fyi. The build is pretty much standard, 1 rax 2 marines then techlab, 1 fact tech lab then blue flame, constant maruader + hellion production, cut scvs when 16ish on minerals. armoury with next 100 gas after blue flame, 1 thor + push. Add e-bay + turret just before push
Well, the idea is sound, but people are going to compensate when you start making marauders...... Additionally moving out could prove difficult because catching bf hellions would be hard. If you started making marauders in thor and i had 2 factories, I'd just keep making bf hellions out of 1 and take defensive positions with tanks, People are going to adjust to what you are doing..
As dumb as it sounds, if I've scouted a thor rush fast enough, I've actually battlecruiser rushed to counter it and win at mid-high masters level. The transition isn't that far off from the tech path most mech builds take, and it's certainly a satisfying build order to execute..
The point of what I'm saying is that with adequate scouting the Thor can be countered. That composition will slaughter any one who hasn't been scouting well, but if you know it's coming, it's definitely possible to prepare for a thor/hellion + bio push off of standard mech build orders. I can imagine PDDs with the addition of your own hellions (for killing SCVs), marauders and banshees would take it out. Or, battlecruisers
Yeah, you're blind countering units that aren't good against the unit you're building. Players who scout what you're doing will in turn counter what you're doing and... well that's the game isn't it.
keep in mind that builds have to be safe from cloak banshee openers AND transitions in TvT. if i see something starportless, i know that if i get cloak banshees you won't be able to win in my base.
On August 28 2011 11:17 Toxi78 wrote: keep in mind that builds have to be safe from cloak banshee openers AND transitions in TvT. if i see something starportless, i know that if i get cloak banshees you won't be able to win in my base.
You take a handfull of scvs with the push, so turrets can be made along the way. Don't forget this is quite allin aswell so transitions not so important ^.^
I go for a way faster thor rush with proxy factory, armory asap, thor then +1 mech armor then a siege tank to help reinforce. Use minerals to optimally make as many marines as u can and pull 6.12 scvs to repair thor. Scv outrepair anything the terran has so you can beat nearly anything except if he has siege tanks and a bunker and a wallin and pulls scvs to repair.
omg. mods please shut this thread down before it changes the metagame and i am forced to play regular tvt's!
lol jks.
Pretty much everything except iechoic's build and mass helion builds counters thor rushes. Which is why I have been thor rushing every single tvt ever since the Slayers team managed to inspire every terran player on the ladder to mass helions.
MMM kills it, and even mech kills it if u siege up with scvs on repair. just don't go 2fact-2port. Oh and good scouting kills it too. If you find the proxy factory before the thor pops out that's a free win for you.
As to your particular thor rush. It is a slow thor rush, which means a faster thor from your opponenet may kill you. And of course bio and siege tanks are still a problem.
just ftr, here's my build I shamelessly stole from an ancient tl thread ages ago:
12 rax 13 refinery 15 OC @100 gas proxy factory @80% completion of factory get second gas @100% factory get helion +build an armory (proxy) @100% completion of helion build a tech lab and cut scvs Build a thor, bring scvs and go kill him
If he has a bunker then focus fire the scvs repairing it with your helions while your thor kills the bunker.
There are a lot of builds that totally counter other builds... but the thing you are missing here is if they scout you, and they will scout you/scan you. They will change their tech.
I actually followed the same line of thought as you. My build is a little different though. I am high diamond and I am not doing too well with this build due to execution errors. I go for an extremely fast +1 vehicle weapons. My push is 3 hellions (regular flame), 1 thor, about 6 rines, and several SCVs. It takes 3 +1 hellion shots to kill rines. with proper micro the hellions will tear rines a new one. The +1 thor can 2 hit marauders rather than 3 hit them. You attack once the upgrade completes. However I am thinking it may be a good idea to use this build as a defensive FE rather than a rush. I can get my expo fast than most terrans with it and be safe from anything except a Pure bio MM stims timing or heavy tank aggression. Defensively I think I may be able to deal with these openings. Then I would be starting upgrades well before my opponent, harass and have an econ edge.
Halby, a masters T opens thors quite often in his TvT vods.
I recommend watching them, as the opening can be pretty sexy at times. You can easily hold 1base siege tank pushes, can counter banshees, and also put pressure on if they do a 1-1 fast expand because 1 thor + scvs + marines can kill 2-3 tanks, especially if you aren't within firing range of all three at once.
hmm thors rush is fun, if you know what you are doing only marauders are a problem, or a wallin with siege tanks. (and medivacs since they mess up the ai :3)
need good posi against the thors though with your tanks ^^. Its funny to see slow units micro ! xD
Everybody on here seems to be talking about all the builds that counter thor builds but i think they can be very strong. and if you have a thor with some marines then bio is not going to kill you especially if you have scvs repairing. Recently I have lost to 2 thors being dropped in my main and then they drop some scvs too and it's super strong. Thor builds can also be very versatile too. They have the power to stop all harrass or you can go all in with some scvs if they do some kind of fast expand. Plus, like the op said, it would transition into mech very well.
Thor rushing can definitely be a ok allin giving you an okay win/loss if you don't like TvT nor plan to try to learn it (which is of course preferable, at least you should want to do it at sometime in the future).
Though I don't feel that it's comparable to the strong all ins such as 3gatestargate (PvT) blink stalkers+observer (PvT) and 1-1-1 (TvP), which are basically builds that are hard to hold off even if you know they are coming. The thor rush is more cheesy, if you know it's coming you will most likely be able to deal with it+there is a lot of builds that actually hardcounter it by default, so you might even lose to players who don't scout at all. (Which 1-1-1, 3gate stargate nor blink+observer allins will do).
I like the idea of thor expanding though, thor is a really all round unit in TvT, with no real counter in small numbers when you're in your base so you can repair. (IE you would probably even be able to hold off marauders in small numbers.)
I played against a guy who went really early thor, and I think it has a lot of weaknesses. especially with a hellion +marauder combo, I would immediately go banshee. And that's not a blind counter, as there are many ways to scout a fast armory.
since i dont know how you make the build work the first thing in mind is how you defend the hellion drop, and how much damage you took from it, which will determine the strength of your push. Second, banshees. Most 1 1 1 builds transition directly into cloak banshee after the drop, and if he s good he should have cloak done and probably 2 banshees out. Single thor AA damage isnt that great, and if he manages to pick off your scvs with BFH while marching across the map thats pretty much going to shut your thor down. All in all I would still feel pretty scared if I saw someone doing this against me...so much fat units for g to g and i wont have siege tanks up.
The other thing he might do is that if he sees this shit coming (scan, medevac) he'll wait until you push and drop the hellions - forcing you to just all in, and without decent AA he can just lift the buildings, hide a CC somewhere else, while you shoot at depots in frustration.
For those who say you just have to play really well - This applies to any build - when you can outplay the opponent with better control i really think doing a 3 rax (2 tech 1 react) stim+slow push will work much better and hit much earlier than this build - marauders will absolutely roll through the hellions and buildings while marines provide DPS+aa support - since ladder maps are small anyways this will be much deadlier.
You should be able to do a reasonably low cost poke or scan right around the time where you could branch off in several different ways. IE right when your TL Factory is finishing, poke or scan to see composition. MMM = Siege or BFH/Banshee, 1/1/1 = Thor rush. If you get surprised by a wave of stimmed infantry, isn't that kind of your own fault?
Just love Medivac + Thor combo, like an XXXL version of Blink. Drop right on sieged tanks and pick up to the high ground to get a quick repair and swap it out for another Thor, rinse/repeat. Also Thorships can swoop in, take out buildings/forces near the edge of a base very quickly and take a fair amount of punishment before picking up and retreating. Like an Immortal drop with better survivability.
I personally love Air Terran, but it's biggest bugbear is surviving the early game. I'm wondering if a better player than I could use the defensibility of a Thor FE (just a couple Thors) to both get a 2 base infrastructure to support a very quick build-up into a strong Air force. Also, the opening would hopefully force exactly the wrong response from the opponent, as units that counter Thors well are particularly susceptible to Air + BFH. I was thinking of it like the Synystyr 4-port build vs. Protoss where early Thor + Bio pushes Toss to Zealot/Immortal/Collossi and leaves them with few answers to 4 Starport's worth of constant Banshee. Not to mention you now have a great supplement to your airforce, as anyone who has tried to fight pure Viking vs. Viking/Thor can attest, and the very high number of shots would make opposing PDDs last about 1 second. Fast +1 Vehicle Weapons will be standard after patch 1.4 if you want BFH's to have the same power they used to have and it allows Thors to 2-shot Marauders, So that's not a waste. And you could quickly snipe off Turrets/addons/Rax/etc.... Dang, this is sounding better and better the more I consider it.
Anyway, last part is pure theorycraft, but you never know till you put it out there.
Remember that there is a reason mech was discovered late. Holding off random all ins is very hard, ranging from mmm doom drops. Marauder stim timing, and Thor rush. Progamer Terrans have figured out mech builds that can hold off these all ins but average diamond level pros will not know much at all. When do you cut marines and lift the barracks? What do you scout which will set off the alarm bells and halt hellions? Perhaps with a money scan you don't mech at all. Just because you see a composition that is countered by a particular all in doesn't necessarily mean that this will allow you to metagame someone.
Remember Ravens beat Thor and marauder volleys. Mass hellions actually beat low marauder numbers with barely any losses. Remember MVP beat ganzi's 30 marine + 4 tank push with nothing but hellions (not a lot), Vikings, a raven and an unsieged tank.
EPT
so transitions not so important ^.^
