|
Hey guys! First off I'm zerg. I've both read the purge thread and watched this replay multiple times in an attempt to figure out the answers on my own but I really can't. It's only a bronze replay, but pretty much every game I feel like I macro pretty decently (for a bronze player). My main problem is how to defend these cheeses at the bronze level. A few questions, 1 general and 1 on the replay.
Here's my replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/172434-1v1-terran-zerg-backwater-gulch
1) My main opening is hatch first 15, gas 16, pool 16, scout @ 14. Should I be changing my build for low level ladder play when I'm facing tons of cheese almost on average 1/2 of my match-ups? I'm understanding that at the low levels macro matters the most so I'm working on that every single game but this hatch first opening I feel is way inferior at this level versus the constant cheese I'm facing. (or is it possible to hold off all types of cheese with hatch first)?
2) The replay - I realize he built a bunker in my base and I didnt scout it, but it's not what lost me the MU. I saw the 7 barracks go down and I really was just clueless about the best way to defend so I pulled back and assumed this is just an all-in type play. I made as many lings/banelings as possible before he pushed out, it worked, and I still ended up losing.
I am mainly having problems with terrans who mass at one base and then push out with a bunch of troops. Even though I get the idea to just mass expand on him I feel that breaking his wall with banelings is either bad micro on my part or just downright hard to do. In the replay the marines were just taking them out as I rushed them to break down the racks/depot.
Should I have just let him go 1 base and take a bunch of expansions or push after I took him out on his rush with banelings? Am I not supposed to be attacking into his turtled base and just wait for him to come out or is this possible to break his wall?
Thanks in advance!
|
Too many lings man. watch the replay. He actually out-macro'd you and had more workers with his all-in vs yours.
...ok so yours wasn't an "all-in" per-se'. You set up for a baneling bust that didn't work out.
TBH When you crushed his first push, that should've been your que to drone hard. If you don't have 2 saturated bases by 10 min, and you haven't been messed with, you need to re-consider how you're going about droning.
|
If you think 15 hatch is too risky in low level play, just open speedling. Its safer, and you can still expand relatively early.
|
On May 04 2011 11:16 DeCiBle wrote:
Too many lings man. watch the replay. He actually out-macro'd you and had more workers with his all-in vs yours.
...ok so yours wasn't an "all-in" per-se'. You set up for a baneling bust that didn't work out.
TBH When you crushed his first push, that should've been your que to drone hard. If you don't have 2 saturated bases by 10 min, and you haven't been messed with, you need to re-consider how you're going about droning.
Thanks man! :D Helped a bunch.
|
I find opening roaches really effective against terrans going marine allins or marine/hellion pushes. Usually, i go for the 14 hatch 14 pool into 16 gas and put down a roach warren once my pool finishes. They roaches pop just in time to defend against a 7 rax, and if hes going for a fast expansion build, you can use your roaches to pressure the terran. Although there are a couple of things you should watch out for like marauder/hellion or banshees, going early roaches require less micro for lower level players imo.
|
I felt that same pain several months ago, but with some changes to my play I was able to figure it out and now have almost a 70% win ratio against terran. (I am currently gold league)
Let me break this into 2 parts.
Part 1: Lower level cheese
I agree with you that you are going to see a lot of cheese and rush builds in the lower levels. As a zerg it is a pretty good idea to open with a pool and gas first then hatch. You don't have to make a bunch of lings right out. You can make a couple to scout cheese or incoming rushes and then build units as needed, while in the meantime macroing with a second hatch. Pool fist is just a safer build and so I would suggest that in bronze and silver.
Part 2: Fighting terran.
This is how I do it, there are lots of ways to play ZvT but this is how I do it and it works very well for me.
I sit back and make it so that he has to leave his home. It is almost impossible to break a heavily bunkered in terran as a zerg - i learned this the hard way. Baneling busts are only for the very early game, or for when you have an incredibly ridiculous number of banes. Even fully upgraded ultras can't break up terran ramp with a couple of bunkers full of marines and marauders. Broodlords are best for breaking the terran bases, but I don't even worry about getting into the terran base. In fact, I can't remember the last time that I was really in a terran main.
So using that thought to analyse your replay: you did go hatch first, but instead of using that fast hatch to get an early economic lead you instead used it to build army. In fact you didn't even pass him in number of workers until the 13 minute mark. Even though he was on one base he had a better economy, so while you were throwing units at his wall he was massing and then teching up. His one base econ was better than your two base econ for a long time. So your build was kind of half way in between a one base rush build and a 2 base macro build.
What you could have done is made 4 lings to take xelnaga and watch for him to leave his base and then just started pumping drones and injecting larva. drop a couple of spines and focusing on getting your econ ahead of his. then when you see him push out, pump enough lings to engage him at the spines and stop his push. then drone more.
get to lair and start building an army. Use your ovies and lings to watch all his possible expansions.
Get lings, banes, mutas and maybe some roaches too.
If he leaves his base - punish him by killing his army or harassing his mineral line
if he tries to expand - punish him by stopping it
if he sends out some banshees - punish him by killing them with mutas and then harassing his line
never try to break into his main, just punish him and then fall back
and the whole time - drone up and take more bases. get your upgrades. make an army. and get a couple of extra hatches so that you have way more larva than you can spend.
he will finally leave his base, be patient, he will finally push. When he is in a favorable position for you to attack, go in and destroy his whole army. then use all those larva and the cash you have built up to rebuild your army.
after this he will never be able to keep up with you, he will eventually be so low on money and army that he will gg and you will have never had to try and break he wall.
once you have complete map control and a mass economy, there is nothing he can do, his bunkered base is only good as long as it has minerals or as long as you are throwing units at it.
I'll try and find a replay to post of me using this strategy.
edit: POSTED REPLAY BELOW
|
Do 16hatch 15 pool. Its actually much safer. Be liberal with your first drones for scouting. You get larva capped more often with that build than mineral capped.
|
Your opening was actually more all-in than his. Yes you had an expansion, but you only had 16 drones between the 2, whereas he had 21 when he first pushes out and continues to build SCVs. If you want to counter mass marines, just have a 1 or 2 lings outside his base so you know when he moves out, have a some at your base to make into banelings and then crank out lings from both hatches as he marches across the map. If you can have your lings outside your base so they can stop the marines from retreating and run the banelings in, make sure you get baneling speed and try to keep him on creep.
Because you didn't really make any drones, you really didn't need to take a 3rd when you did, get your 2 bases saturated, at least 16 drones on mins at both and both gases before worrying about a third. The exception to this is if your opponent FEs around the same time you do, then you can expand a little sooner. In general you also want to expand away from your opponent, in this instance I would have either taken the expansion at 6 o'clock, or the expansion between your main and the 6 o'clock expansion.
Second big mistake you make is getting spire at around the 12 minute mark and never make any unit using it. 3 or 4 mutas would have completely shut down his banshee harassment and given you options to counter harass.
Lastly, I'll just say that infestors are the best marine counter in the game right now, one FG amkes marines easy to cleanup with lings.
|
This isn't a perfect example, but it works for theory.
I get my economy up instead of an army
he pushes and i punish him by taking his army, but don't worry about trying to end it
he tries to take map control at a xel'naga and i punish him my taking out his army and pushing into his base a bit, but don't worry about trying to end it
He takes the gold and I punish him...........and he GGs
I never have to go into his main besides to scout
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/169108-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
|
what you can try is just having one or two spine crawlers and a decent amount of banelings.
I like this BO vs terran
15 hatch
16 pool
delay gas til around 25 food or up to 40 if they are going a slow tech build like 2 rax
2 spines when natural finishes and 2 sets of lings for scouting and 2 queens.
2 more queens and tons of drones while money allows, then if you scout an all in coming just get more queens if its air or just in general since they do the same dps as roachs vs marines with more health/same armor.
and some lings and banes vs ground.
mid game you can do whatever tech you like but im really liking fast 2/2 upgrades and infestors.
|
Against pure pure rines you want to mass banes//ling with rolly. I seriously cannot go mass rax vs any good zerg because I don't have the INSANE micro needed to counter mass rolly banes.
|
On May 04 2011 12:01 Jaime wrote:
Your opening was actually more all-in than his. Yes you had an expansion, but you only had 16 drones between the 2, whereas he had 21 when he first pushes out and continues to build SCVs. If you want to counter mass marines, just have a 1 or 2 lings outside his base so you know when he moves out, have a some at your base to make into banelings and then crank out lings from both hatches as he marches across the map. If you can have your lings outside your base so they can stop the marines from retreating and run the banelings in, make sure you get baneling speed and try to keep him on creep.
It is not really this simple.
Z cannot wait till T moves out before making units unless he has been stockpiling larva and minerals which is usually not advisable. If T delays his push for 1minute then the amount of units that come out will be too large for 1 production cycle of units to deal with. 2 minutes even more so and by 3 minutes a totally new composition might be out, or an expansion built in base.
Z instead has to split production between lings and drones while attempting to scout every 30 seconds or so. If the T is decent Z wont be able to scout anything so needs to prepare for every possibility. The longer the game goes without T moving out the more possibilities Z needs to accout for. This means cutting drones completely once you have an economy equal to a saturated 1 base + 6-10 drones and getting all the structures required to counter whatever could come out of that terran black hole. This includes lair, roach warren, baneling nest, evo chamber and extra queens.
This is why its hard to play z in bronze - z must react to the opponent which is actually easier in masters because the players usually act logically and you can tell off small build optimisations what is coming. In bronze the opponent could do anything and even if it is horrible inefficient, since your macro is similar, you will still lose to it.
|
On May 04 2011 13:45 guN-viCe wrote:
Against pure pure rines you want to mass banes//ling with rolly. I seriously cannot go mass rax vs any good zerg because I don't have the INSANE micro needed to counter mass rolly banes.
This is so cute. Bane speed should always be called rolly.
|
I had the same problem as you, but if you can utilize the initial four lings to see what your opponent is up to you can see whether you can macro hard to not.
|
oh man, i know i might bet banned for this but.... this is honestly the best laugh i've had in years watching this replay...... u look at me now i have a grin from ear to ear LOLS
bases unsaturated, marines been massed 15minutes after seeing banelings, bunkers inside the other guys base for 20+minutes,.... armies rallied outside the enemies' base for 20+ minutes oh god, he finally realises he has to move out after all the minerals are gone from his single base. i have not ever laughed so hard i kid you not. this stuff is pure gold
the heavens prayer for a noob to one day be daring enough to make a post of his own replay, and the masses rejoice in ecstacy. lololol,
srsly i think inbetween the start of the game and the time u realised this was an "all in type of play" an entire civilisation could've been built and we could've discovered time travel for you to look at yourself in the past tense and tell yourself he's going all in, but on the other hand he didnt' move out until all his minerals were gone from his single base, u could've built more drones in that time im sure LOLOL.
thx for the laughs man u're great
oh yeah and i havent really read the replies but i dont knwo how people can actually attach strategies to your play, i'd question the mentality of these guys as well lol, i wouldn't be surprised if this threads full of bronze league of more hilariuosness.
i've strucksies teh gold gold gold
ok i just read some guy with a reply "i've fel the same pain months ago" LOLOL more hilarities
furthermore u may find such responses as "hey ma, i have entered the mind of a noob" as they watch your replay...
User was temp banned for this post.
|
You should never try to bust a turtling 1 base Terran, unless you're very sure that you will win.
Expand and tech hive but keep an eye on his production so he doesn't roll you with a maxed army when you're not watching.
As for the unscouted bunker/Photon cannon, you should have overlord scouting patterns for every map. This way you will see anything outside your natural and you will be able to react in time.
|
Thanks for the replies guys, I'm facing this on ladder quite a bit and this is helping 
|
Ive been having some sucess with a 13 pool 12 gas with a queen and 2 lings once the pool finishes. With the gas put three drones on it and use for ling speed use lings for scout, harrasment, Xel' Naga tower watch. Around 22 I normally expand, throw down a roach warren, and just drone till I see that he is gonna try to push or something then its pretty easy to switch to unit production. Vs T I like muta for harass and Ultra's if the match goes that far.
|
first time poster, long time lurker... and sorry for my bad english
On May 04 2011 10:55 Phyxate wrote:
Hey guys! First off I'm zerg. I've both read the purge thread and watched this replay multiple times in an attempt to figure out the answers on my own but I really can't. It's only a bronze replay, but pretty much every game I feel like I macro pretty decently (for a bronze player). My main problem is how to defend these cheeses at the bronze level. A few questions, 1 general and 1 on the replay.
Macroing isn't just a matter of expansions - though in bronze league it is remarkable. If you are supply blocked several times (talking about the replay you posted), for example... that is bad macro.
1) My main opening is hatch first 15, gas 16, pool 16, scout @ 14. Should I be changing my build for low level ladder play when I'm facing tons of cheese almost on average 1/2 of my match-ups? I'm understanding that at the low levels macro matters the most so I'm working on that every single game but this hatch first opening I feel is way inferior at this level versus the constant cheese I'm facing. (or is it possible to hold off all types of cheese with hatch first)?
Pool first is certainly safer, but in this replay it isn't the core problem (also considering the huge map).
2) The replay - I realize he built a bunker in my base and I didnt scout it, but it's not what lost me the MU. I saw the 7 barracks go down and I really was just clueless about the best way to defend so I pulled back and assumed this is just an all-in type play. I made as many lings/banelings as possible before he pushed out, it worked, and I still ended up losing.
Yeah, you just forgot to mention the huge banshee harass which put you very behind. Your reaction time was poor, and that is nothing to worry about in bronze league... but you had a Spire for the entire game, maybe was that the right moment to make some mutas/corruptors?
After the initial push, which I would not consider "cheese" at all since it started @7:20 (and would have ended 30" later in your base), you were in a comfortable position to drone hard and make profit from your expansion. This type of decision making, which is crucial for the Swarm, requires some experience and is one of the main differences between good and bad players. In bronze league you're not supposed to know the exact builds and timings of your opponent, but your 30 lings survived after the first push could mean something about the state of the match. 
These are the main problems in this specific replay, bad macro and no reaction to the banshees. Then we can talk about 1000 minor mistakes (for example, if you plan to send a sacrificial overlord in your opponent's base, how can you get supply blocked for an entire minute?), but it's useless if you don't work hard on the core.
I am mainly having problems with terrans who mass at one base and then push out with a bunch of troops. Even though I get the idea to just mass expand on him I feel that breaking his wall with banelings is either bad micro on my part or just downright hard to do. In the replay the marines were just taking them out as I rushed them to break down the racks/depot.
Should I have just let him go 1 base and take a bunch of expansions or push after I took him out on his rush with banelings? Am I not supposed to be attacking into his turtled base and just wait for him to come out or is this possible to break his wall?
Thanks in advance!
Taking espansions is useless if you don't make drones.
Breaking a Terran wall can be hard, but you chose your way making a Spire. Muta harass, corruptors into Broodlords... better than nothing.
|
Opening 15 hatch 16gas 16 pool is pretty risky especially against any sort of bunker early rush. Try 16h 15p or 15/15 and a later gas at 17 (no early pressure) or 21 (early pressure).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
