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Hey all. I'd like to share my reactive build that will most times outright win the games vs a roach opening, or do a ton of damage. I've had good success with it at the ~3300 Masters level.
To start, open with a standard 1 gas build:
10 Depot
12 Rax
13 Refinery
15 OC
Marines constantly after barracks is done, until you have 5.
Do not build 2nd depot at ramp, instead wall off with factory @ 100 gas. (This is to give better defense against possible baneling busts)
Hellion asap after factory completion
(I like to send my scout after my 1st depot, but it's up to you, it doesn't make too much of a difference when you go)
With your first few marines, do whatever you choose. I like to go overlord and ling hunting, but you may feel safer just sitting at the top of your ramp.
When your hellion pops, group it with your 5 marines and move out. Your objective is to pick off what you can. Overlords (not likely but take it if you can), lings at the xel'naga towers (most zergs feel they are entitled to these at all points in the game). If you scouted hatch first opening, feel free to move in and try to pick off some drones, but I really just like to poke around and scare them into more zerglings, possibly spines.
Now, the 2nd part of the build:
You'll be hitting 400 minerals shortly after your hellion is done (don't scan). Drop a CC on top of your ramp, where a scouting ling could get LOS if he ran up. Why? In my experience, most times when Z sees the CC going up he feels safe to drone drone drone. So go ahead and let him see it.
These next things come as soon as you can afford them (from top to bottom, highest to lowest priority)
Tech lab on factory
Reactor on barracks
2nd gas @ main
supply depot (you should be at about 29 or 30/35 food right now)
This is where the reactive part comes in. A good amount of the time the hellion/marine poke we did earlier forces roaches. This ensures that banelings and mutas will be significantly slower than usual, that is if he even does tech to them. If you see roaches, continue on with this build, if not, feel free to deviate however you wish. The build is flexible enough to tech to whatever you want at this point, and we have a decently fast expo going up.
If you DO see roaches: As soon as your tech lab and reactor finishes, start pumping out marines and tanks (do not research siege mode). When your CC floats over, turn it into an OC and make 1 refinery. Throw down a 2nd barracks with a tech lab at your main. At this point I like to scan to see what's up. If he's going for a relatively early spire, just roaches, or anything but banelings really we're going to attack.
Wait until you have 3 tanks and however many marines you have from pumping them out of your reactor barracks, then grab 5 SCVs, turn autorepair on and move out. Start making marauders and research stim. Rally your barracks' and factory to the point of attack.
The ridiculous DPS of the tanks NOT in siege mode combined with the marines and repairing SCVs is a very strong push at this point. Even if he throws a ton of speedlings at you, you'll have a lot of marines streaming in and the tanks, naturally, do a great job tanking damage. Usually you're hitting the zerg at a critical tech transition time, or when he is droning.
Also to note: I would do my best to use that hellion from earlier to scout ahead on your attack path so the Z has as little time to react as possible.
If your attack doesn't win the game, I like to add on a 3rd barracks with a tech lab and a starport for medivacs and constantly put on pressure.
It's a little bland for now, but that's the jist of it. I'll be editing more info in to this post as I learn more myself, as I've only just begun using it in the last week or two.
Here are replays:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=182678
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=182679
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this is a very standard TvZ build. and ill just say your build could easily lose to just lings alone. marine/tank pushes are extremely positional based, and its not likely that 5 marines + hellion will force roaches, if you really wanna force roach try openin with reactor factory to get more hellions, you can still FE.
eitherway, this is near standard.
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How about at 14 supply if you dont scout an expansion it would be intelligent to make a bunker.
Tada! Safe from roaches. To be safe from banelings sim city your wall with your 2nd depot connected to the bunker thats connected to the 1st depot.
Usually i have a tank or banshee on the way by time the roaches get to my wall anyways you dont need to really change much in your build, standard play can and will beat any kind of rush.
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True, I would definitely make a bunker if no expansion was scouted. I do think the push can be effective against all of 14/15 hatch into roaches, speed expand into roaches and pool expand into roaches, however.
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5 marines and a hellion? i'd make 10-ish lings and kill that with a queen
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I didn't know Zerg opened with roaches against T. One hellion usually doesn't force Z to go roaches. I also have an overlord in the back of your base, so any kind of feint you try to pull on a Z will be spotted, no problem.
I usually just preserve the gas, go Ling and some banelings, couple of spine crawlers if I see hellions and play it from there.
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On January 22 2011 04:22 lindn wrote:
5 marines and a hellion? i'd make 10-ish lings and kill that with a queen
I think you missed the point, might want to go back and read the OP. I'm not A moving 5 marines and a hellion into your base. I'm poking around trying to force lings and MAYBE pick stuff off. If you make 10ish lings, I consider it a victory for me.
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On January 22 2011 04:35 lizzuma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 04:22 lindn wrote:
5 marines and a hellion? i'd make 10-ish lings and kill that with a queen I think you missed the point, might want to go back and read the OP. I'm not A moving 5 marines and a hellion into your base. I'm poking around trying to force lings and MAYBE pick stuff off. If you make 10ish lings, I consider it a victory for me.
I don't think he missed the point. The point was to force roaches to make your build really effective, right? Well unless i scout a reactor on the factory. I'm still going banelings. Not roaches. Yes, with a 4 marine + hellion poke you're probably gonna force some lings (though probably not a crawler unless theres any threat of you coming back or they scout you coming from a looong way off). I dont think it's by any means a guarantee that he's gonna "have to make" roaches.
Try playing mroe games like this, and see how often you "force" roach. I think in this case you might just be "seeing what you're looking for".
EDIT: Pardon me. I realize now you never specifically stated that you were guaranteeing a roach force. You simply offered a strong build if you DO see roaches. Good on you, OP
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3 Tank Push
Similar styling to the current original posting.
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I tend not to go early roaches unless i see at least 3 hellions. Even if I DO feel the need to go roaches, right after I slap the Roach Warren down, I will also put my 2nd extractor up so as not to delay my Lair timing by as much.
Given all that, at the time of your push, I should have ~4 lings and 5 Roaches with a bling nest up and a spire building. No reason I shouldn't be able to hold off your push and ride my way into mid-game.
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On January 22 2011 04:22 lindn wrote:
5 marines and a hellion? i'd make 10-ish lings and kill that with a queen
Lol id take that trade that 5ish less drones than you would normally have. The marines are worth it imo. I probably wont lose the hellion though due to micro, so this is even a better trade if i can kill half to all your lings and run away for repairs.
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I do a very similar open. Except, once fac starts, I take an scv off gas and only have 2. Once 2nd CC starts in base, I make 2 more rax and 1 starport. When starport is started, scv back in gas, start next gas, drop a tech lab on the fac + the 1st barracks. Reactors on 2nd two rax if you want. Marine hellion poke -> drop expos with raxes in front if possible (very adebisi like, check out adebisistarcraft on youtube)
Cept once my starport is done, I make a viking then a dropship. I pick off OLs around his base and in the path I'm going so my 8 marine + dship + viking landed can land, walk in and kill the queen and anything else I can get. I always go for the queen. Churn out marine tank +1 infantry off 3 rax 1 fac 1 port, and push consistently to force units
Very much the same opening, just early 2 rax and port.
I don't think he missed the point. The point was to force roaches to make your build really effective, right? Well unless i scout a reactor on the factory. I'm still going banelings. Not roaches. Yes, with a 4 marine + hellion poke you're probably gonna force some lings (though probably not a crawler unless theres any threat of you coming back or they scout you coming from a looong way off). I dont think it's by any means a guarantee that he's gonna "have to make" roaches.
I don't think there are ANY zergs now a days that don't get 1-2 crawlers when you marine hellion poke. Plus the slings, you're almost ahead as you have 2 OCs plus mules. Marine tank stops any rush to the front, a few turrets and you're safe to drop harass until mutas pop then a quick thor or two, and you push out and force engagements.
Now, I'm not very high up in masters, just like 2450, so take it with a grain of salt.
Once I drop tech lab I start stim and +1 and try to push when CS + siege finish around the same time
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On January 22 2011 06:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:I do a very similar open. Except, once fac starts, I take an scv off gas and only have 2. Once 2nd CC starts in base, I make 2 more rax and 1 starport. When starport is started, scv back in gas, start next gas, drop a tech lab on the fac + the 1st barracks. Reactors on 2nd two rax if you want. Marine hellion poke -> drop expos with raxes in front if possible (very adebisi like, check out adebisistarcraft on youtube) Cept once my starport is done, I make a viking then a dropship. I pick off OLs around his base and in the path I'm going so my 8 marine + dship + viking landed can land, walk in and kill the queen and anything else I can get. I always go for the queen. Churn out marine tank +1 infantry off 3 rax 1 fac 1 port, and push consistently to force units Very much the same opening, just early 2 rax and port. Show nested quote +I don't think he missed the point. The point was to force roaches to make your build really effective, right? Well unless i scout a reactor on the factory. I'm still going banelings. Not roaches. Yes, with a 4 marine + hellion poke you're probably gonna force some lings (though probably not a crawler unless theres any threat of you coming back or they scout you coming from a looong way off). I dont think it's by any means a guarantee that he's gonna "have to make" roaches.
I don't think there are ANY zergs now a days that don't get 1-2 crawlers when you marine hellion poke. Plus the slings, you're almost ahead as you have 2 OCs plus mules. Marine tank stops any rush to the front, a few turrets and you're safe to drop harass until mutas pop then a quick thor or two, and you push out and force engagements. Now, I'm not very high up in masters, just like 2450, so take it with a grain of salt. Once I drop tech lab I start stim and +1 and try to push when CS + siege finish around the same time
I like your viking/octo drop strategy. Im going to start using that to expand.
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I often wonder how many T players have completely rubbed the lettering off their A key...
I suspect that it's > 90%
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On January 22 2011 06:39 heyyouyesyou wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 06:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:I do a very similar open. Except, once fac starts, I take an scv off gas and only have 2. Once 2nd CC starts in base, I make 2 more rax and 1 starport. When starport is started, scv back in gas, start next gas, drop a tech lab on the fac + the 1st barracks. Reactors on 2nd two rax if you want. Marine hellion poke -> drop expos with raxes in front if possible (very adebisi like, check out adebisistarcraft on youtube) Cept once my starport is done, I make a viking then a dropship. I pick off OLs around his base and in the path I'm going so my 8 marine + dship + viking landed can land, walk in and kill the queen and anything else I can get. I always go for the queen. Churn out marine tank +1 infantry off 3 rax 1 fac 1 port, and push consistently to force units Very much the same opening, just early 2 rax and port. I don't think he missed the point. The point was to force roaches to make your build really effective, right? Well unless i scout a reactor on the factory. I'm still going banelings. Not roaches. Yes, with a 4 marine + hellion poke you're probably gonna force some lings (though probably not a crawler unless theres any threat of you coming back or they scout you coming from a looong way off). I dont think it's by any means a guarantee that he's gonna "have to make" roaches.
I don't think there are ANY zergs now a days that don't get 1-2 crawlers when you marine hellion poke. Plus the slings, you're almost ahead as you have 2 OCs plus mules. Marine tank stops any rush to the front, a few turrets and you're safe to drop harass until mutas pop then a quick thor or two, and you push out and force engagements. Now, I'm not very high up in masters, just like 2450, so take it with a grain of salt. Once I drop tech lab I start stim and +1 and try to push when CS + siege finish around the same time I like your viking/octo drop strategy. Im going to start using that to expand.
It's rather effective, I don't get why but until I see why I'm not stopping. I only got 1 rep of it recently as I don't play but maybe 5 games a week, and I don't wanna offend mrbiter/aka flabolous by posting it if he doesn't want it posted.
But, you won't have stim, but a landed viking + 8 marines eat up a queen fast, and you can pick off slings and lift viking, lift marines, and split. Land viking at main again behind minerals, marines at expo.
It's just a little way to buy time to get stim + s.tech for tanks behind a early 2nd base.
If you want I can pm you the link to the replay of me doing it vs a 2600-2700 master Z
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Keep it simple.
Reactor Hellion push into Hellion Marauder Timing attack with stim. Ends the game before the 10 min mark. If not you expand build and armory and make Thors Hellions Maruders and Marines.
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You just lost to Destiny with this build ... he played pretty well and your hellion and marine "poke" got raped and you didn't even control them ... they were cornered, it was lol moment.
You probably would've won but just saying 
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On January 22 2011 08:20 GinDo wrote:
Keep it simple.
Reactor Hellion push into Hellion Marauder Timing attack with stim. Ends the game before the 10 min mark. If not you expand build and armory and make Thors Hellions Maruders and Marines.
Would love to see that in action. I've always fondled (gay) the build around in my mind, but could never figure out how I'd beat muta players. Obviously rax -> reactor -> swap -> drop with tech lab, get shells + mara and 2 hellions. I still feel a few spines, and a sling flank would end this way too fast.
But it'd have to be a perfect flank IMO
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On January 22 2011 06:55 EvilSanta wrote:
I often wonder how many T players have completely rubbed the lettering off their A key...
I suspect that it's > 90%
I suspect it is just about the same as the zerg players hitting z...
EDIT: or protoss hitting s or z... they are core units in any match, obviously they are going to make a lot of them!
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making 1 single helion before going tank marine probably won't force roaches out of a good player. They'll toss up 1 spine and make an extra queen and it'll be buisness as usual.
Reactor hellion into marauder works decently, though i see more zerg figuring out how to play against it by rushing to mutalisks as by the 7 to 8 minute mark you can have a significant number of mutas out if you can hold non blue flame hellions at bay with just ling/spines/queens.
Which a smart scouting zerg player should realize what you're doing when they see next to no marines at your base....which is teching to something other then marines which the answer to 99 times in 10 is lair tech and a spire. Pretty much anytime I see reactor hellions i'll suicide and overlord into the base to see if the next move is marauders or some other tech before i commit to roaching.
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On January 22 2011 05:47 heyyouyesyou wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 04:22 lindn wrote:
5 marines and a hellion? i'd make 10-ish lings and kill that with a queen Lol id take that trade that 5ish less drones than you would normally have. The marines are worth it imo. I probably wont lose the hellion though due to micro, so this is even a better trade if i can kill half to all your lings and run away for repairs.
good luck running away from speedlings, even with a hellion.
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Interesting build, thanks for sharing.
I think only a small portion of the zerg players will actually go roaches this fast, however. Nonetheless, nice build for when it actually does happen.
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On January 22 2011 08:32 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 08:20 GinDo wrote:
Keep it simple.
Reactor Hellion push into Hellion Marauder Timing attack with stim. Ends the game before the 10 min mark. If not you expand build and armory and make Thors Hellions Maruders and Marines. Would love to see that in action. I've always fondled (gay) the build around in my mind, but could never figure out how I'd beat muta players. Obviously rax -> reactor -> swap -> drop with tech lab, get shells + mara and 2 hellions. I still feel a few spines, and a sling flank would end this way too fast. But it'd have to be a perfect flank IMO
I dont have a replay but you go
1) reactor hellion into expand
2) Tech lab on the rax
3) Get 2bases with 2rax 1fact get marauder upgrades and push when stim is finished.
4) To guard against the muta counter make an armory and a ebay while stim is being upgraded. And swap one of the barracks onto the factories reactor and pump pure marines when you push and make a thor or 2 with the factory on the tech lab. Making turrets will allow you to push after the mutas have been repeled but are optional if you want to make a faster 3rd barracks and starport you can get them later if you feel you can stop the mutas with marine/thor.
5) Add on another barracks and a starport making marine/tank/medivac(or viking/ or raven).
6) Attack zerg when he takes his 3rd for a timing attack.
7) Take a 3rd.
Hope that helps with the build.
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On January 22 2011 09:58 the p00n wrote:
Interesting build, thanks for sharing.
I think only a small portion of the zerg players will actually go roaches this fast, however. Nonetheless, nice build for when it actually does happen.
Indeed, I agree. It's not a common response, but it's definitely seen, more so I think as an opportunity for early zerg agression. IdrA actually went for roaches against Jinro when he did a very similar 4 marine hellion push on their Xel'Naga caverns game the other night! I don't know how Jinro would have done with this push, but it would have been interesting to see him try.
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I believe any build well microed is strong as terran, especially when you hit during transtion/drone up time. This push you state, is something I saw on ladder just today, (2.5k masters level) and its quite rough I agree. I had to flank and make 30+ lings + 3 banelings on creep with a spine crawler assistance, and it still felt like it wasn't a good trade :S. I got muta's and got my third, but I just got steamrolled with another push / with the force doubled, because his naturals saturation kicked in. Any Zerg please tell me how to cost effectively counter this.
Your 3300 :S your in the top 200 level for NA. nice
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EPT
