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On November 10 2010 09:39 Ema wrote:
Nice! I have to ask though, what do you do about +1 zergling all-ins? I find that zlings are already very cost-effective vs roaches, and once they get +1 they are most more efficient than roaches. When you see the fast evo chamber what's your response - banelings? +1 roach?
If you position your roaches on the top of the ramp, only 4 lings or so can attack your roaches at once. He would have to suicide a TON of lings to defeat them. On some maps however, mass early lings are more problematic. Scrap Station is the most obvious, since there is no small choke or ramp. On such maps I usually just keep my roaches close to my main, tucked next to buildings to prevent a surround. Once you have sufficient roaches or feel safe enough to expand based on his ling numbers, move the roaches between the fork.
Remember with this build you are playing for the late game. Stay defensive early on and do NOT move out, otherwise a ling run-by or surround will end the game.
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On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?)
I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other.
Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build.
Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg.
Interesting strategy.
A few questions:
1. When do you get your evo(s)? Do you get 2?
2. Do you mix in hydras even if they don't get mutas? Or just when they get mutas?
3. Do you drone scout? Do you do anything differently if they go 14hatch?
4. Do you get infestors against muta/ling/bane?
Interesting strategy though. I'll keep it in mind.
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On November 10 2010 11:32 Dromar wrote:
Interesting strategy.
A few questions:
1. When do you get your evo(s)? Do you get 2?
2. Do you mix in hydras even if they don't get mutas? Or just when they get mutas?
3. Do you drone scout? Do you do anything differently if they go 14hatch?
4. Do you get infestors against muta/ling/bane?
Interesting strategy though. I'll keep it in mind.
1. I get my evos once I am confident enough that the number of lings or roaches he has cannot defeat my roach wall-off. It is kind of a judgement call.
2. The only time I DON'T get hydras in the mix is if I scout my opponent going for a mass roach +1 all in type of build, then I have to match his roach count before trying to tech hydra.
3. 14 Hatch doesn't deter me from going the same exact build.
4. I never get infestors in ZvZ. Never...
To answer some of the questions people have, I have provided a replay. It may not be the best execution of this build possible, but it was the first ZvZ I played today on the 1.1.3 patch, so you'll have to do. As you can see, his ling/roach/infestor build got completely crushed even though he had an extra saturated base.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164541.jpg) [/url]
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Here is another ZvZ I just played. Opponent opened mutas for map control, took 4 bases to my 2, and picked off 5 overlords and a queen... Even then he was helpless to prevent the coming roach/hydra apocalypse 
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164581.jpg) [/url]
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On November 10 2010 07:56 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Guys I want you to know that ZvZ doesn't have to be cheesy or coinflippy... (coinflippy?)
I used to despise ZvZ but now when I see it I am happy for the free victory. I've literally won the last 12 ZvZ games I've played doing a very simple roach/hydra timing push. I have many, many replays of this strategy stomping every other.
Basic plan is this: 14 pool, about 16 gas, with an instant roach warren as soon as pool is done. Get enough roaches to completely block your ramp from ling/bling cheese, then drone hard. Take a second base once you are saturated and have enough roaches to defend a more open natural. If you scout or suspect mutas, get a few spores to defend your workers. Add hydras into your mix. Keep pumping roach/hydra until your +2 attack +2 carapace upgrades are done, then 1a your way to victory. A maxed or near/maxed roach/hydra army is unstoppable. This build CRUSHES roach/infestor play, muta/ling/bling (assuming you can micro your hydras away from the banelings), etc. The only way I ever lose ZvZ now is either some kind of early all-in cheese rush or a better executed roach/hydra build.
Source: Zerg player ranked #637 in North America with an 80%+ win ratio against zerg.
Oh man, I really should try this, I lost an awful, awful ZvZ to Roach/Hydra/Infestor, micro'd my Mutas horribly.
Then the next time I lost to mass lings :|
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i'm always at a loss with what to do against zerg... if i go roach hydra i can't get out of my base and if i go mutaling they steamroll with either a swarm of zerglings or roach hydra of their own. spine crawlers just don't seem to be doing their job...
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hmm ZvZ really is a... well my personal feeling about ZvZ is that it's utterly retarded, and I feel seriosely insecure playing ZvZ, however it seems to be my highest win rate even so, so it's just a weird match up honestly, seems alot like rock papir sissor...
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i dont get how you can win with roach/infestor or roach/hydra infestor srsly. he can just take over the map and i am immobile as shit. man i hate this match up. lose them all the time.. after that he can easily match whatever roach/hydra count.
tried it 3 times but taking my natural was hell already.. and the longer we wait the more income he has to outnumber any army and still have options to backstab. seems to be all they throw at me is muta ling or ling/bling or ling/bling/muta and easily walk over me early game and can switch if they want
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On November 11 2010 05:14 AFCArt wrote:
i dont get how you can win with roach/infestor or roach/hydra infestor srsly. he can just take over the map and i am immobile as shit. man i hate this match up. lose them all the time.. after that he can easily match whatever roach/hydra count.
tried it 3 times but taking my natural was hell already.. and the longer we wait the more income he has to outnumber any army and still have options to backstab. seems to be all they throw at me is muta ling or ling/bling or ling/bling/muta and easily walk over me early game and can switch if they want
Try taking a look at the replays please. I was on 2 bases to my opponents 4/5, and it wasn't even a close win either game. One thing you must learn about SC2 is that it is much more noob friendly than BW. You don't need a third in 90% of games, since you have enough resources to get about 450 supply off two bases. One base had 1500 gas in BW, compared to 5000 in SC2. I know it is comparing apples to oranges, but the point is the same: Once an army is maxed it makes little difference how many resources or bases are behind. The most efficient maxed army will crush wave 1 + wave 2.
Please post replays of you losing with this strategy and perhaps I can provide some advice. I am confident this roach/hydra push can stop ANY macro play or composition that is thrown at it. If anyone still has doubts about this strategy, I also welcome a practice match anytime. I will go 2base roach/hydra, you can go whatever you want.
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I did try it on jungle basin and won like in your replay btw, not even close. even added burrow btw. My opponnent being very bad kept throwing 50 banelings into my roachwall and i just moved forward and hold again.
the problem is that most maps you can't block your natural that easy. I think you need a 2nd base for this to work and the mobility of muta ling seems to be a problem then. I can of course push out from 1 base with roach hydra and leave a couple of roaches behind vs mutaling but it will prob end in a base trade/ai.
edit: so the problem lies in taking your natural with this strategy.
would like to see it work vs mutaling or ling/bling or something mobile. will post a replay when i try it again on a not backdoor natural map.
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Because I am directing other ZvZ help threads to this one, I am providing a third replay. In this game my 2100+ opponent does a speedling rush against my roach build, and I defend the ramp just in time. He then transitions to an aggressive 1-base muta build. He expands while attempting to contain me to 1 base. Eventually I break free and expand, keeping up with him in the drone count in the meantime. He adds more mutas, lings, banes, and infestors, but the army is no match for the +2 +2 roach/hydra push.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166152.jpg) [/url]
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@jdseemoreglass : your build seems very powerfull and I'm impressed by your timing/composition.
But let's say, you play on scrap station ZvZ and the opponent go for a classic baneling lings opening, do you reconsider your build (since large choke) ?
On this map i tend to not do roach opening because I am not sure about my timings and I always concede map control (where he expands of course) and the air proximity is still scary for me.
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Lately Ive been doing a 14 pool 15 hatch. Banelings to defend against lings (spread them out and hold position), if you scout roach warren throw up spines. Eventually, once droned up Go into roach infestor, with some hydras thrown in for mutas (if scouted). Really quick lair gets overseers for constant scouting.
Still kinda new and need to work on it more but i think it has promise
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ZvZ is practically decided by what you decide to tech to, and who has to most units/most upgraded. IMO, i think Roach/Hydra is the most effective ZvZ strat. Not only are roaches able to tank, but Hydras are able to attack father, and target air, laying waste to mutas. Roaches block blings/slings, and other roaches.
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On November 16 2010 10:18 Baloop wrote:
Lately Ive been doing a 14 pool 15 hatch. Banelings to defend against lings (spread them out and hold position), if you scout roach warren throw up spines. Eventually, once droned up Go into roach infestor, with some hydras thrown in for mutas (if scouted). Really quick lair gets overseers for constant scouting.
Still kinda new and need to work on it more but i think it has promise
I think on most maps getting banelings is unnecessary because you can safely open roaches and get a later expansion. I've found earlier hatch really does very little to give an economic edge. I also think infestors are usually a waste of gas. I would definitely prefer to have an upgrade or a group hydras to a pretty worthless fungal growth. Overseers also tend to be a waste, for the same gas you can get ALL overlords speed. I would only get them for burrowed roach play.
Just my 2cents.
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14 pool, 14 gas, 20 roach warren, get 4 lings at 18, then go mass roaches. Once you reach about 10 you expand, or earlier depending what the other guy does. After you expand you go lair, morph an overseer, if your zerglings couldnt spot enemy build, and check out his build. If mutas; you plant a hydra den quickly, if he goes roaches just focus on roaches yourself (get upgrades before him). Strategy is always get 200/200 army with roach/infestor as main focus and hydras only if he gets mutas (you can't afford hydras in your 200 army unless he goes mutas, since straight roach/infestor will own roach/hydra/infestor in terms of value for money).
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EPT
