EPTTPW Crystarium
By Archvile
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yOchh.jpg)
overview
Map bounds: 148x132
Nat-nat rush distance:154.9
Available: EU NA
Analyzer
+ Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mjGak.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a99xR.png)
Close ups
+ Show Spoiler +
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XhESj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8P97r.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EDFcm.jpg)
[M] TPW Crystarium
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
TPW Crystarium By Archvile overview Map bounds: 148x132 Nat-nat rush distance:154.9 Available: EU NA Analyzer + Show Spoiler + Close ups + Show Spoiler + | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
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Aerysta
United Kingdom49 Posts
 Kinda wish i had the time to try and make maps again | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
Looks nice, I think will work nice in-game as for balance and stuff. I like the cliff backdoor to the mains! | ||
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Gfire
United States1699 Posts
I think the concept might be shown a little more strongly if some of the ramps were smaller, especially the large central ones. As they are, it encourages players to just attack through the middle. With smaller ramps there, it could encourage more positional play where the defender gets a stronger advantage there and an attacker would be encouraged to start moving around. Kinda like how Cloud Kingdom has the smaller (and partially blocked by rocks) ramps through the middle. Actually, this feels quite a bit like Cloud Kingdom. The actual layout is pretty different and I don't think it would play the same way at all, but it sort of has a similar theme. It also seems really similar to Chupung-Ryeong. I think it's a great map. | ||
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
I like how the towers are sorta out of the way also, I hate when i'ts like so obvious and you just are going to go that direction anyway, this sorta forces movement otherwise, also it seems like the "designated tower" might be opposite from early to late game.. How can we get this to NA, i want to play! | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:22 Gfire wrote: I really like the layout in general. Really cool. Simple but pretty nice. I think the concept might be shown a little more strongly if some of the ramps were smaller, especially the large central ones. As they are, it encourages players to just attack through the middle. With smaller ramps there, it could encourage more positional play where the defender gets a stronger advantage there and an attacker would be encouraged to start moving around. Kinda like how Cloud Kingdom has the smaller (and partially blocked by rocks) ramps through the middle. Actually, this feels quite a bit like Cloud Kingdom. The actual layout is pretty different and I don't think it would play the same way at all, but it sort of has a similar theme. It also seems really similar to Chupung-Ryeong. I think it's a great map. I went with bigger ramps(they were smaller initialy) because of the power of the highgrounds and especially the forward base. You will control so much space from that position that I fear smaller ramps will break the map - it becomes too hard to attack into so while it would surely turn into very long macro games they would becomes borring and static as well. I would love smaller chokes but I am worried it wouldnt work well on this map. | ||
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RumbleBadger
322 Posts
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
On April 20 2012 06:27 thurst0n wrote: How can we get this to NA, i want to play! I will probally get it up on NA in a few days when I have got a bit more feedback and finished up the last details. | ||
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AnalyZ
France32 Posts
But definitly a better map. | ||
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
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Oxyjon
United Kingdom31 Posts
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TheFish7
United States2824 Posts
Can ground units sneak past the watchtowers if they go single file through the center? | ||
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1wbcd.jpg) In order to hold three bases, you just simpley park your army on the low ground area in front of your natural while having a wall/cannons/bunkers/spines at your third. If your third is attacked, you just take a few steps over to defend it. That's it. You don't need observers, overlords, and other means to see when your opponent is coming, and from where. Sure it helps to know they're going for your third, but assuming you have some defense, you'll have time to take a few steps over to defend your third if you don't have any map awareness. To make such things interesting, many maps have a series of chokes that lead into a relatively open area in front of the natural and third. Here are some examples from ESV maps: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2VaaP.jpg) On ESV Tanzanite, you can see there are two chokes that lead into a relatively open area infront of the nat-and third. Thus, in order to maintain a good defensive position behind a choke, you have to pace between chokes 1 and 2, and then sidestep to your third if it goes under attack. However, since your army is already positioned relatively close to the third choke, a backdoor into the third was included to make things a bit more interesting. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U4Tva.jpg) ESV Korhal Compound does something very similar to ESV Tanzanite, except there isn't a backdoor, the third choke is a bit further from chokes 1 and 2, and the third choke is on the low ground. Thus emphasizing the importance of map awareness. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RpHOu.jpg) ESV Cloud Kingdom however does something quite different, which makes positioning between the nat and 3rd very unique. Instead of dancing between a series of chokes in front of the natural with a third wall off/defense, you're dancing between the 3rd choke and choke 2 while having a defense at choke 1 by the natural. Where this may not seem like such a big deal, this actually emphasizes the idea of map awareness and positioning, as your natural is the vulnerable base rather than your third. On maps such as Korhal and Tanzanite, you pace your army between the chokes in front of the natural, then just sidestep to the third if you see your opponent moving toward it. If you don't see your opponent coming or you're out of position, and you end up losing your third, you are suddenly way behind. Yet, you can still do a 2-base all-in or find a way to be aggressive while retaking third, etc etc. On Cloud Kingdom, it's the reverse. You pace your army between the two chokes at the third instead and sidestep to your natural to defend it. However, if you lose your natural you probably lose the game. Losing your natural means you've most likely lost some tech, supply buildings, and maybe even stuff in the main. Therefore, making it much harder to come back and stay in the game. As a result, the positioning conflicts on this map while on 3 bases are much more unique, interesting, and important. You have to have tower control, observers, overlords, etc to keep an eye on your opponents army in order to maintain a good defensive position. Thus, the map rewards you for having map awareness. With that said, your map simply does not have that reward for being in position, as quite frankly sitting your army in a single spot instantly puts you in position. There are not spots where you dance with your opponents army, fighting for a positional advantage. Thus, there is no need to have map awareness until you're on 4 bases, thus making it fairly easy to hold 3 bases. Simply put, there is less room, if any at all, to find yourself out of position. Where this isn't doesn't break the map by any means, such a lack of rewarding players for having good map awareness is boring in my opinion. However, there is still hope for your map. On your map, if you take the forward third, the positioning is super cool: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QQYda.jpg) However, that base is fairly open and is closer to your opponent, thus making it unattractive for both protoss and zerg. Yet, I understand why you designed it that way. A planetary fortress there would be incredibly hard to break if the area was much chokier. Nevertheless, I have a proposal that might deal with such an issue while maintaining the super cool nat-third positioning conflicts: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/P3itA.jpg) Doing something like this would REALLY emphasize the importance of map awareness. No longer is sitting in one spot, not having control of the tower, and not having scouting observers/overlords an option. This really makes for some cool positioning conflicts that, with map awareness, makes 3 bases quite easy to defend. Yet, without such map awareness, you can easily find yourself in trouble, just like on Cloud Kingdom. Hopefully I got my thoughts out clear enough for you to understand, and I hope it helps. Cheers! | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Could the 3rd base defensive positioning dynamics be better? A little, sure. But you assign too much strength to the position that gives up the high ground. You will constantly suffer whittling damage while staying pinned if your only plan is to hold the bottom of the ramp and answer side-attacks as they come up, while your opponent can do whatever they want at home. Within the needs of any given map it's hard to make a dynamic 3rd that is also fair in all matchups. If the map is more dynamic the longer the game goes, all for the better, and this problem is much less significant. Lots of maps we have offer very little viable increased positional relevance or complexity. CK does well on both these counts, Daybreak doesn't much (the center base compacts the game and the relevant paths act the same the whole game, but it has good dynamics from the start), Korhal sort of, Ohana sort of. This map does. If the low 3rd was removed as in your suggestion and the only 3rd was on a new deeper high ground pocket, it would be nearly impossible for protoss to take a fast 3rd in any matchup, zerg would suffer, and not just for those reasons terran would have it easy. (Although ZvT would have cool runby on the back loop.) Good post regardless. I wish all map feedback and discussion was like this.  | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
EDIT: edited out short reply to timetwister, as i just woke up the reply was kinda off, not saying what i wanted to say, and I'm about to head to work so will do a more detailed reply when I get home. | ||
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Timetwister22
United States538 Posts
On April 20 2012 11:32 EatThePath wrote: @Timetwister: I disagree with the severity of your appraisal, though I empathize. It's okay for maps to open up more after the 3rd (aka at the 4th base) if they provide for it, and this one does in spades. An example of bad is Antiga, where the dynamics for the 4th base are really swingy and have little to do with finesse. That map says: here's 3 bases, fight each other. On maps like that, even a mild case of the problems you list (which I think are exaggerated and/or inaccurate) makes for a very undynamic map. The only reason Antiga produces watchable games is that the fight over the middle is sometimes interesting and multifaceted, or involves multi-wave engagements. On this map, the options for expanding after the 3rd are nothing but viable and interesting, expanding the possibilities and providing opportunities to win value through superior maneuvering. Could the 3rd base defensive positioning dynamics be better? A little, sure. But you assign too much strength to the position that gives up the high ground. You will constantly suffer whittling damage while staying pinned if your only plan is to hold the bottom of the ramp and answer side-attacks as they come up, while your opponent can do whatever they want at home. Within the needs of any given map it's hard to make a dynamic 3rd that is also fair in all matchups. If the map is more dynamic the longer the game goes, all for the better, and this problem is much less significant. Lots of maps we have offer very little viable increased positional relevance or complexity. CK does well on both these counts, Daybreak doesn't much (the center base compacts the game and the relevant paths act the same the whole game, but it has good dynamics from the start), Korhal sort of, Ohana sort of. This map does. If the low 3rd was removed as in your suggestion and the only 3rd was on a new deeper high ground pocket, it would be nearly impossible for protoss to take a fast 3rd in any matchup, zerg would suffer, and not just for those reasons terran would have it easy. (Although ZvT would have cool runby on the back loop.) Good post regardless. I wish all map feedback and discussion was like this. To be honest I have no idea what you're trying to get across aside the last paragraph. However, I can assure you that protoss would be able to take a fast third as along as they have map awareness. If anything, protoss would have the easiest time with this third because of observers+tower. As long as protoss is aware of where their opponent's army is, they can meet them at any one of the highlighted chokes in yellow for a defenders advantage. The point of my post in general is that you don't actually have to work to get and hold three bases on this map, and taking the tower and having map awareness is basically useless until you get on four bases. Just like Antiga and Shakuras. I find this boring. The extent of my proposal may be too drastic, yet it can easily be minimized with the same idea in mind if need be. However I feel if this map is to be enjoyable to play, it should be enjoyable right from the start, not until you're on 4 bases. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 20 2012 12:12 Timetwister22 wrote: To be honest I have no idea what you're trying to get across aside the last paragraph. However, I can assure you that protoss would be able to take a fast third as along as they have map awareness. If anything, protoss would have the easiest time with this third because of observers+tower. As long as protoss is aware of where their opponent's army is, they can meet them at any one of the highlighted chokes in yellow for a defenders advantage. The point of my post in general is that you don't actually have to work to get and hold three bases on this map, and taking the tower and having map awareness is basically useless until you get on four bases. Just like Antiga and Shakuras. I find this boring. The extent of my proposal may be too drastic, yet it can easily be minimized with the same idea in mind if need be. However I feel if this map is to be enjoyable to play, it should be enjoyable right from the start, not until you're on 4 bases. I was trying to say it's okay for maps to open up after the 3rd base. Maps so far have not been good enough to achieve this, except maybe CK, which also chooses to have a significantly contestable 3base stage. (This is probably how most maps should be.) I also disagree that the 3rd base is that easy on this map. Sorry I wasn't clear. | ||
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