I like those 5 replays. But as I was watching them, I asked myself, what is the reason for the protoss to always have the same build order and the same playing style?
Boxer changed his tactics and strategies almost every game and adopted perfectly to Nazgul's play.
In my opinion, that's the reason why he outclassed Nazgul in the last games.
Does Nazgul always play like this or did he choose to always employ his best and most successful strategy, because he knew he was playing against "the" Boxer ?

Or is it a general protoss weakness to have only a limited build order variety due to missing reliable scouting information?
Until now I was thinking that rather terran had fewer possibilities (mechanics and no M&Ms), but I am about to change my mind.
Boxer, you rule!

Drazzzt

P.S.: Who did win the second game btw.?

RedMeat

United Kingdom490 Posts

September 30 2002 11:51 GMT

Interesting point about the build order, I was thinking the same thing myself. My idea was that after the m&m rush (which was very nice) then Nazgul kept to his orginal strat thinking that Boxer wouldn't do the same thing again. After all Boxer won the m&m game through surprise and the fourth game he won through surprise again by hiding his second factory and vultures. But.. the basic strat was the same in the fourth game as earlier only the factory was hidden and Nazgul had just been rushed by m&m (which would leave you wondering what he was up to and I think the vultures just worked well as a surprise rather than as something Nazgul was expecting). Anyways, I have always maintained that terran does not have to stick to mechanic to beat protoss and likewise I think protoss has some strats which could be used effectively and aren't (corsairs and web is the main strat which I think is underused, esp against terran mechanic). After all if you have only 2 or three corsairs but you web half the enemy seige tanks you have basicly already won the battle, corsairs are also very good early scouts and having the same limitations as observers (missle turrets) then I can't see why they aren't used more. Anyways, very good effort from Nazgul in the first two games (I think he won the second). It surprised me how much more effective it is to not use high templar vs mech strat and just to go for zealots and dragoons with some dark templar later.

ps. Maybe the same basic build is used because if the oppenent is walling (which Boxer wasn't in all games admittedly) then early zealots are next to useless. Dragoons need to be built really as the next unit up on the tech tree, I would like to see what decent players could do with; stargate beacon and corsairs instead of robotics facility then observatory (as I'm not counting myself in the decent player catagory).

Anyways, waffling a bit now. GG's

)Is(Honest

Korea (South)417 Posts

September 30 2002 15:28 GMT

no.. nazgul is not 1strat user.. his strat chagnes almost everygame..

nazgul did not have same b/o all 5games?? maybe first 3games because he was facing boxer and wanted to do his best with the b/o he thinks is most strong for him

but last 2games i don't think all strats were same is it?? reaver tech?? ?????

but look those games were like 3month ago.. keep in mind nazgul improves everyday :-)

Creation

United States3 Posts

September 30 2002 17:22 GMT

Hey I might sound newb or what not but .. Where are these games played? I mean is there a seperate server like kali or are all these just played on bnet? I've seen a few people on Bnet west. Thanks!

Liquid`Nazgul

22427 Posts

September 30 2002 17:35 GMT

this was played at game-i (korean server which is known for the ladder they're hosting).

RedMeat

United Kingdom490 Posts

September 30 2002 17:38 GMT

Sorry, don't get me wrong here Nazgul is one of my fav protoss players but I don't think he adapted well to Boxer's strats. Sure he went reavers but whilst being different they don't affect the outcome of pvt that much in my opinion (unless dropped effectively). The point is that reavers are mostly usful for killing svc's but rarely get a chance to take out buildings (that being the practical difference betwen then and high templar, excluding the cost). Would write more but am being called to bed by beer and girlfriend who doesn't like starcraft much

. Will be back soon to completete monologue :p.
Cyoz

Creation

United States3 Posts

September 30 2002 18:17 GMT

Naz any way i can get on this server? do u have to pay money like old kbk or something? thanks

mensrea

Canada5062 Posts

September 30 2002 18:36 GMT

It was a free service until about a month ago... T__T

0x64

Finland4615 Posts

September 30 2002 19:22 GMT

#10

gamei still free from 21-03 CET+3

Creation

United States3 Posts

September 30 2002 20:23 GMT

#11

How do i connect to it? Do i need a special program?

Muhweli

Finland5328 Posts

October 01 2002 03:01 GMT

#12

www.gamei.co.kr, find a link to innotzsetup.exe [it should be big]. Then you can connect there. There are several guides which can help you on your quest, i believe one can be found from Cosmo's replay cafe@ http://rush-cosmo.pe.ky/

The main idea is that you can't make an ID upon connection. You'll need a korean social id number, and a location where you live in korea etc. etc. etc. To get an account there.

0x64, You sure it's not GMT+2? Well, what ever [GMT+3 @ winter time?]

RedMeat

United Kingdom490 Posts

October 01 2002 04:24 GMT

#13

Ahhhhhh, I've just watched all the replays again looking for reaver tech as I was fairly sure that if Nazgul did switch strats then it didn't really affect the game at all so I didn't notice it :-/. Yea, reaver tech in the third game was somewhat unlucky as if the rush was a minute or so later then reavers would have owned those marines.
That build looked a little odd to me as I tend to not build dragoons if I'm going for reavers and then go double robotics facility (just as an aside because Nazgul used the same basic build but went support bay instead of observatory). In my experience (which is somewhat limited, certainly on battlenet as I mostly play on LAN) then reaver drops die quite horribly vs terran unless they are very fast/early or the terran has decided not to leave tanks in his base or put up any turrets. Also I think double robotics facility is more of a change in strat than single robotics facility and bay instead of observatory (so if it works it is more offputting for the opponent).

Anyways, I think the point about Nazgul not varying his build that much still stands as reaver tech was only one game. Unless I'm mistaken (which is often the case

) the build order for four out the five games was basicly the same whereas Boxer was adapting his strats more.
Ook, that's my attempt at being more coherent

Was still a good effort from Nazgul, a lot better than let's say.. me. Looking forward to seeing him own Boxer 3-0 next time anyways

. Yay protoss!

Muhweli

Finland5328 Posts

October 01 2002 10:46 GMT

#14

Muhweli

Finland5328 Posts

October 01 2002 10:46 GMT

#15

shit, meant to be... |

Liquid`RaSZi

Netherlands2766 Posts

October 02 2002 01:49 GMT

#16

<b class=quote>On October 01 2002 03:17 Creation wrote:</B><BR> Naz any way i can get on this server? do u have to pay money like old kbk or something? thanks

Yes u have to pay money for it.

3 dollars a month.

It was free but like gamebugs the foreigners must've driven them mad.