EPTI'm serious, I want to hear it so that we can all analyze the plan in the open and work out any questions or flaws that can be exploited.
TL Mafia 2 [GG] - Page 3
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I'm serious, I want to hear it so that we can all analyze the plan in the open and work out any questions or flaws that can be exploited. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
1.) Remember what I said, all Bodyguards now know each other's ID + The Mayor. Once the Mayor is investigated, if no one speaks up obviously he has to be legit. I doubt any DT that investigates the Mayor and finds him guilty would stay quiet in fear of their death - that would be selfish and harm the Town. 2.) Even so, let's assume that NO detectives investigate the Mayor. Either way with 7 people and The Mayor, thats a lot of communication going on to find Mafia. At some point, and I'm hoping for this, the Bodyguards will have to question the Mayors decisions. Even better, they do this publicly. The Mayor has to defend certain actions, and if he is acting suspicious with no good reason something is up. In 1, whether or not the Mayor is innocent is going to be found out very fast. In 2, the Mayor in the case of being Mafia even if not found out has the added task of killing innocents while appearing to do good by 7 other people who also know each other, and that they are all 100% innocent (refer back to the plan to find out how). So how can a Mafia Mayor who follows the Bodyguard Plan still harm the Town? Possibly by trying to trick the Bodyguards into doing something horrible, but with 7 ppl that's going to be hard because that isn't enough for mob mentality to take over - and I doubt all of them would be that gullible. The plan works even if the Mayor doesn't mess with the list - we get a verified Mayor and his allies by the time day 2 starts. How is that not good enough? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 02:59 Lysithea wrote: Reposting this part from my own post since I really want peoples thoughts on this. Ok here's my take - it would be a pretty good idea from a Mafia standpoint. 1.) Empryean did very well last game 2.) For some reason, people think the probability of him being Mafia again has changed when it really hasn't 3.) He claims a role that is important and can't be verified right now 4.) Most importantly, it adds confusion to the game 4 is the prime reason that if I were Mafia, it would be a great tool. People trust Empryean, and if another DT comes and investigates him well they'd be hard pressed to prove it - and now the Mafia knows another DT role with nothing else weighing in on their decisions aka an easy kill. Thats an element of confusion that takes away from the main focus, and the easiest way for the Mafia to win is to confuse the Townies. I'm not saying Empryean is Mafia, but that was a very risky move. There was no point in revealing his alleged role so early in the game. Maybe he's afraid that he'd be killed early and is innocent after all - and if that's the case for someone so smart he should have provided a better angle of campaigning. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Sorry if I wasn't more clear, and sorry for the insult  Getting rid of double lynches is not going to matter to the Mafia UNLESS we obviously have Townies that are clearly on the right path - that point is moot. Double lynching is essentially only good for when we have a situation where it's an EITHER/OR case. Example: Only 1 Medic is left alive, and 2 people claim the role. With only Medic no one has a reliable chance of living at night anyway, and one of these people is lying and the town somehow can't decide. Call for the Double lynch because it destroys the Mafia killing power. The Detectives being scared to reveal their roles would hurt the town. And I'm betting that we've got some smart, rational detectives on our side. Surely, to save the Town they'd give themselves up. But not only that, role claiming at the right time will screw the Mafia over. This is something I wanted to reveal later, but I'll partially post it now: While the Mafia knows each other and have the advantage of secrecy, they also lack information - namely roles. With this in mind, whenever a role that is crucial is publicly revealed they usually want to kill them - sometimes. Where does that sometimes pop up? When they damn well know that Medics will protect that target at all costs. Which means that they'd have to send a lot of killing power to get rid of that person. Which also means they cant kill as many people that very night which is good for the town. That 1 detective could actually save a couple of lives. hold on - it gets better. I mentioned earlier on the forum something along the lines of Mafia have it easy when their are only a couple of really good targets to kill. When you add in like 5 or 6 good targets, they have an issue. If the Town knows that 5 or 6 of their best could possibly be killed, the Medics know that. And the Mafia knows that the Medics know that. So they are somewhat stuck in a rut as they definitely can't kill ALL of them, and they don't know which ones are getting protected. Wait. There's on more good part to this. We have Jacks. Any DT that is playing this game can realize that even if they died, we have Jacks that could replace them if need be. I doubt anyone is playing THAT selfish and is worried that somehow role claiming at the right time to help the town with critical information is a bad choice. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 03:24 randombum wrote: Ace the bodyguard plan is not faulty, but merely that even if implemented its not that great. True that is 7 people who are working together, but 10(mayorx4) will not be able to change much with 130 people voting. It is FAR more important for information to be shared with everybody. (not who are bodyguards but other information.) The mafia or pardoner's position should be the mouthpieces of the town. Detectives (don't have to reveal their detective status) can send information to mayor. The mayor repeats it to the town. Thereby giving the town the ability hear all the information from everyone, but keeping those people anonymous. So the more involved people do not have to share their opinions publicly. This keeps our active people alive, but they ideas are still shared. I agree with some of this randombum. The Bodyguard plan is not the full plan I would use, it's just a start that gets information around and gets the town into a good setting. Whether or not the BG roles need to be revealed is a different issue and I think it's worth telling at a certain time. In most Mafia games, the town does something called Role Claiming which is a great thing to do. It brings out conflicts because surely Mafia members need to claim SOMETHING. However, the Mayor + BodyGuards DO have the power to change the voting. Remember, if everyone knows that the plan is being followed and nothing comes out about a guilty mayor, then they must be innocent. And if the innocent Mayor has a committee of innocents, that drops the suspect list down to 122, gets information flowing, and eliminates red herrings in clue posts. Surely, that is a much better plan than what we have now? wait, what DO we have now? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
However, what we can do is just let the Mayor speak for "the committee" once he's known to be innocent. At that point, the BGs don't have to be revealed yet. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Once the Mayor is confirmed innocent, he/she is the mouthpiece of the committe (Mayor + BGs). After that, by day 2 we have a new course of action: check clues, look for suspects. Investigate the Pardoner. Any innocents can PM the Mayor their role, who will share this with the committee. randombum: I'll talk more about role claiming at a later date. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 03:57 Falcynn wrote: To be honest the pardoner seems like a useless position for a towny until maybe really really late in the game. The only good thing that comes from granting someone Pardoner status is the bodyguard protection, so we don't really need a pardoner who works well with the mayor. We just need to put a towny that we want to keep protected. Pardoner is actually very powerful if the Town is somehow mob voting and the Pardoner figures out in time if something is fishy. The Pardoner should pretty much be treated as a second Mayor, since that person should also be pretty good at leading the Town and figuring things out. And yes, the last point that it should be someone we want to protect should be taken into account. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
LastRomantic - aznvaliance (1) Empyrean - LastRomantic, Meta,Eti307,Showtime,MTF,BloodyC0bbler,RST Nightmare,NatsuTerran,Solosteer,Jim Tudor,nemy,decafchicken (13) Ace - CDRdude,Joxxor,Ghar,spoinka,Hittegods,Hollander,Naib,useless,GeneralStan,Shadowdrgn, Lysithea,Falcynn,zeks,Mynock,Caller (15) randombum - Drdragoon,Alethios,G.S)Naruto,Sadir,fanatacist,Bockit,GranDim,Ninja4ever, so no fek,shallow[bay] (10) fusionsdf - plexa,ZBIR (2) plexa - ssj100,Seifu (2) Sonuvbob - LTT.wurm,Heros)Pink (2) Ghar - Ace,ahrara,Pangolin,Mandalor,Amber[Light],rpf,Ziel (7) araav - SonuvBob,RowdierBob,Klive5ive,xdark,Neax,Energies,qsr (7) | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 05:13 Falcynn wrote: Only the mayor knows who the body guards are, even the bodyguards themselves don't know. So if a bodyguard doesn't get a message...he'll just assume that he's not a bodyguard. Hmmm? Not quite. Remember that Chuiu PMs everyone their Bodyguard Roles after elections. If a Bodyguard doesn't get a message something is fishy because he knows the Mayor has to know who he/she is, and that if the Mayor is following the plan they HAVE to PM them. This is the self-checking part of the plan. Also guys, I don't think we need to reveal a bodyguard. Whoever wins mayor will undoubtedly be checked up on by a Detective or a Jack, and if found Mafia will be turned out ASAP. If things are quiet, we can be sure as heck that they must be innocent. The Mayor will be the mouthpiece of "the committee" (Bodyguards + Mayor) 1. Even if I were mafia, a mafia mayor would still be good for the town. Think about it. Mayors have to act in town interest. If he doesn't, there is mass suspicion against him, and he can be lynched. It's in the town's best interest to always enact double-lynches. If, for some reason, the mayor declines, he's pretty much voted dead the next day. It's NOT in The Town's best interest to always enact double lynches - they are only useful is some critical information is going to be revealed or the case where out of the candidates someone is SURELY Mafia and we have exhausted other attempts at figuring it out. 2. Yes, I am forcing the town's hand. I'm fine with having someone confirm me as a detective, or for having people give me questions to confirm. If I am not mayor or pardoner, I'll be a likely target for the mafia the first night. They're smart enough to put multiple hits on people to ensure bodyguard protection is wasted. If mafia don't target me first night, I'll be able to reveal some more clues until they're forced to kill me or otherwise be revealed. I'm not fine with anyone confirming anything based on you - because what you're asking is a system where you are the only person accountable for anything. In other words, you are asking for blind trust and using your abilities in last game (which have 0 bearing on your status this game) as a crutch to get elected - and I'm not for it. A detective mayor/pardoner is the best bet for the town. Why? At the end of the game, it's likely that at least one bodyguard will still be alive. When the playing field has diminished so greatly, I'll be able to ask "What is [player]'s role" which leads to an immediate mafia death. That's why you should vote for me. Surely you don't think we are this stupid??? 1.) You role claim at a point no one can justify 2.) You are pretty much asking for blind trust 3.) You have no plan Seriously, if people keep saying you are so good at this game I can't help but ignore how BAD this move is for the town. It's a very selfish move akin to "I don't want to die" and your campaign for Mayor/Pardoner isn't even strong at all. I seriously hope people do not vote for you, because you definitely are not acting like a leader or in the best interest of the town. You did not need any protection at all, and in fact the more I think about your little stunt is actually taking votes away from more qualified candidates like randombum and Ghar. You are acting VERY selfish and I just can't stop repeating it. You have offered no plan and you are pretty much saying "I'm a Detective, Mayor + Detective = win, vote for me". People I URGE you to reconsider your votes for Empyrean, because he is NOT displaying good qualities we need as a Mayor or Pardoner. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 07:58 qrs wrote: The problem with that in a nutshell is that you are forcing all the detectives to use one of their two "is-he-Mafia" questions. (If one does not, how do we know that all of them will not?) Surely it's better to save those questions for when we can use them better, and out a single bodyguard (who can be protected or fake-protected). I would rather have the DTs use their abilities to verify the Mayor and easing the conscience of the Bodyguards and allowing the Town to start off on a good foot. I also hope people are looking at ahrara's last post. Do not jump to conclusion's people - there is no strong evidence pointing to anyone at all right now. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 07:58 Empyrean wrote: 1. Yes. I am acting very selfishly. It still benefits the town to guarantee that I'm a protected position. 2. I support your plan. I probably should have made that more clear. Think about it from a mafia standpoint: If I truly were mafia roleclaiming to be detective, once the election is over and under your plan, the detectives reveal their clues (not publically, of course), it'll be obvious that I wasn't a detective. So why would the mafia risk such a scenario? Quick edit. Ok I'll think about it from a Mafia standpoint: 1.) If you are Mafia and you don't win Mayor you could always get away with false claiming for a while if the Mayor isn't good enough to break that trend early 2.)If you are Mafia, you are hoping you do win the election and that by the time you really are investigated things are out of whack. Essentially by the point part 2 comes up, if you were Mayor the Town loses a Mayor, you hope the BGs are in disarray, and any Detective or Jack that says you are Guilty will be labeled as scum or a traitor and won't be killed at night to keep the suspicions on them. Honestly, the more you post about reasons to be Mayor the more I keep thinking about past games I've played and how people have tried stuff like this to pull one over the eyes of the town. Even if you were caught fast, the damage to the town would be sickening. You'd take up a valuable night spot, and a lot of active, smart players would be dead on the first night. And as of now, you are not acting intelligent enough to be Mayor or Pardoner. I don't care what anyone says about last game, this game is showing that your selfish nature and by any means necessary attitude is not good for the Town.period. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote: Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role. None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
You do realize this don't you? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:30 Empyrean wrote: My problem with your candidacy is that the same thing could apply. You could be mafia as well, and all we have is your word. I'm basically going to be adopting a similar plan, so why not vote for the candidate who actually has a role? (Of course, you may as well.) Also, I don't agree with the bodyguard plan qrs posted wholly - if the mayor were mafia, he could have a mafia member "reveal" that he was a bodyguard, and then the mafia would know the player's jobs/plan/etc., as well as waste a significant amount of paramedic protection. That's why I think that we should investigate any person who claims bodyguard first. But seriously. If I'm elected, just get other detectives to check my role. The mafia will certainly fake some detectives, but I have ways around that which I can't reveal at the moment because it would compromise the method. Obviously ANY of us could be Mafia, stating that isn't going to help figure out anything. The problem I have with you being Mayor is you never offered any kind of plan until today when Ghar and myself posted stuff and starting getting votes - and you were here last night so you saw the original plan Ghar posted and my comments. Even if you somehow missed it - you never revealed that you had a plan until we questioned your candidacy. Voting for a candidate based on a supposed role has NO BENEFIT for the Town. Surely, someone as smart as yourself would have realized that and instead run on the basis of well - being smart, knowing what to do, experience. a plan, something. You did something extremely selfish, and I hate to say it but if you are elected Mayor or even Pardoner we are in a bad spot at the start of the game. Selfish people are horrible for the town - Detectives that won't come forward with critical evidence because they fear death, Medics that refuse to actually protect people that are pretty much a sure fire kill for Mafia, Vets that don't post or contribute at all and instead only vote which means they draw no attention to themselves. Also you are CLEARLY not READING. If you looked at both my plan and qrs's plan you'd realize that the Mayor CANT DO THAT without getting into bad situation. If they false claim the Mayor is a goner, and out of the possible claimers the Town has a sure fire list of suspects which contains a Mafiaso and the detectives are easily going to investigate them. I seriously cant believe you are acting in the best interest of the town when you wont even read other posts that suggest plans of action carefully. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:41 HeRoS)Pink wrote: Well even if empyrean is telling a lie he's more clean than Ace (for me), Ace was defending Ghar's point of view (another candidate) + Ghar have clues against him, and the mafia has probably sent 2 candidates for the mayor's position and that could be the reason why Ghar was ready to give up his votes to Ace Why would he do that if he really wants to be the mayor? Cuz they both think alike? I dont think so, they had almost the same plan which is another coincidence. So Don't start voting for Ace because he's accusing Empyrean of being too much unsafe for the town. -Pink I'm defending him because I think he's posting very logical examples of ways to help the Town, and while I can't 100% verify him being innocent, I know when I see something that helps the Town. And Empyrean isn't helping the Town, in fact he is adding a lot of confusion to this election which is something we do not need as a Town. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:44 HotZhot wrote: P.S2: Ace you seem to want the mayor position alot, I wonder why... Because I know I'm good enough to help the Town win in that position. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:48 HotZhot wrote: He is the new Tracil IMO, are you Tracil Ace? would fit if he got mafia rol, lol hahaha look at my profile - been here since 2002. I'm NOT the new Tracil | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 08:57 Kau wrote: Ace: About your Bodyguard plan, what stops a mafia mayor from pming each actual bodyguard with a list that is something like: mafia 1 mafia 2 mafia 3 bodyguard # Each actual bodyguard would get a pm back from each of the fake mafia-bodyguards and they wouldn't know. Then once the mayor gets checked by a detective, couldn't there be fake mafia-detectives that state that the mayor is innocent? They can't because all the other Bodyguards that didn't get a PM would know something is wrong. In the event that they do that, it just helps the town because we can just apply all clues and DT/Jack power to that list of suspects and catch the Mafia asap. No fake detective is going to spring forward and state the Mayor is innocent because they run the risk at having a real detective also step forward and once again we are back to place where we have confirmed a situation with at least 1 suspect as Mafia (because someone is lying) and a sure fire Mafia lynching. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 19 2008 09:04 Empyrean wrote: Especially since once the real bodyguards complain that they didn't get a PM, other mafia can as well. And if the Mayor is innocent he'd (which would be confirmed by the DTs silence) then those stupid Mafia that tried to geek the Town would be caught when the Mayor never mentions them on his list. If any Mafia member false claims they'd be caught red handed fast because this plan does not use 1 person as the word of trust - it uses several with a self checking scheme. Continue to try and find more holes in it, this is interesting and fun. | ||
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