+ Show Spoiler [rage at technology] +Oh FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I had this all written out and then I closed the tab. Had to write it all again. I even fished through the memorydump from Chrome and recovered some pieces, but it was piecemeal and scattered 
See spoiler for tech foibles. This took me longer than I thought, and I thought it would take a while. Anyway, here are the two main reasons there is no doubt that Holyflare is scum:
Exhibit A: the "locked in" waffle
First, lets establish the timeline. Your honor, we need to establish that holyflare was on the scene!
00:57:
On March 05 2019 08:57 Vivax wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote Trfel
00:58:
On March 05 2019 08:58 LightningStrike wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote blazinghand
On March 05 2019 08:58 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2019 08:58 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:56 Palmar wrote:On March 05 2019 08:55 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:53 Palmar wrote:On March 05 2019 08:50 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:45 Holyflare wrote:On March 05 2019 08:42 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:37 Koshi wrote:On March 05 2019 08:32 Trfel wrote:
STILL NO ONE HAS SAID A SINGLE THING TO ME
NOT ONE EXPLANATION OF WHY I AM MAFIA
NOT ONE QUESTION
NOTHING
Do you realize what is happening? If I'm lynched, fine, whatever, but someone acknowledge my existence please! I think you are mafia and I told you why. Disconnect in every other post you made. That is enough. Show me the disconnects, that's simply not true. I already explained the two disconnects that exist. If you show me more I can explain them too, nothing even has merit except for those two. @Holyflare, I'd take another look at Fecalfeast and Mocsta. Mocsta's play felt honest and genuine to me, admittedly he hasn't done much but I don't think that's mafia indicative. I know that Fecalfeast enjoys playing scum (heck he has one of the highest mafia winrates on the site) and he's relaxed and carefree as mafia, IIRC he's more relaxed and carefree and fun-loving as mafia than town. As mafia he plays to exist and survive, not to push stuff, and that's exactly what he is doing here. Otherwise, just please don't start a big fight between you and raynnpelikoneet or anyone else that causes massive tunnels. Can you explain the mocsta progression on Palmar then? How can he go from so rage-y and agreeing with my posts against Palmar to suddenly voting Conversion with palmar and agreeing like nothing had happened? Huh. To be honest I couldn't tell you. I guess never mind me then, I'm still not really convinced he's mafia but I couldn't (and wouldn't) stop anyone who said otherwise. You and Exo You guys need to explain your scumread on me But I don't have a scumread on you? I'm just trusting Holyflare. The whole saving me thing and all. Why are you voting to lynch me then? I'm not? Unless you mean voting Holyflare for mayor, because I trust him to do the right thing. And I kinda expect he won't kill you, but I probably shouldn't say that, it makes him more likely to. But you asked. I've re-submitted my lynch to Palmar from Palmar.
00:59:
On March 05 2019 08:59 Conversion wrote:
##unvote
##vote trfel
01:00:
On March 05 2019 09:00 Holyflare wrote:
lol I didn't kill palmar
01:10:
On March 05 2019 09:10 Holyflare wrote:
So we've established beyond reasonable doubt that Holyflare was on the scene and, if he had wanted to, could have sent a PM to kita asking to kill BH instead of Palmar. Now, your honor, I submit that Holyflare never wanted to change. This does not make him scum (well, it does, but he can wifom his way out of this). What makes him scum is him prevaricating about changing.
Post-flip he gets pressured a bit and says:
On March 05 2019 09:41 Holyflare wrote:
for the record if I knew bh was not getting lynched I would have absolutely switched it to him but it was already locked in
But he was right there the whole time. He knew BH was not getting lynched. He even got PM'd by the hosts about it:
On March 06 2019 19:06 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 18:49 Acrofales wrote:On March 06 2019 18:34 Holyflare wrote:On March 06 2019 18:31 Blazinghand wrote:On March 06 2019 17:40 BloodyC0bbler wrote:List of reads. Joy boys and girls its time for a BC analysis post. Lets start this off with a fun person that everyone should be looking at the moment. All those who don't well, you are bad. Holyflare + Show Spoiler +Shocker I know right? The guy literally led us down a wrong path all fucking game. He has lied by his own admission multiple times. He claimed he would mayor lynch Sentinel, then Palmar. Said he wasn't serious on the Palmar lynch, then says he lies a few hours before deadline and offs Palmar who flips backup cop. He said he shot BH then claimed that he only did so to create tension in the thread. However his outrage about the game being full of blues seems one that an angry mafia could make. The other thing that gets me about his lying is he claims that he couldnt change his mayor vote because it was locked in while being insanely active right at the time the lynch was happening so could have changed it had he wished but claimed On March 05 2019 09:43 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2019 09:42 iamperfection wrote:On March 05 2019 09:41 Holyflare wrote:
for the record if I knew bh was not getting lynched I would have absolutely switched it to him but it was already locked in how is it locked in ? that makes no sense you could have changed I don't think so? I PMd it saying lynch palmar a long time ago when it was called for in the thread and when the deadline came I was told it was palmar selected. Didn't really get given any other opportunity but it is what it is. Unless things have drastically changed since I played this game. If you had any action you could take whatsoever you could change it more than once before a deadline hit. So if this has changed feel free to correct me but until then this is a straight up fucking lie. Next few thing that gets me however that stood out after a filter dive is this. On March 04 2019 00:56 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 00:55 rsoultin wrote:
The whole thing where LS's only 'scumread' out of 34 other people is MZ, and then he wants to kill Koshi screams to me of a Koshi that rolled scum and told his buddies to just lynch him.
If LS flips scum, MZ probably is scum, too, so that's three right there. Koshi is confirmed town though so it's ok. On March 04 2019 00:58 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 00:56 Holyflare wrote:On March 04 2019 00:55 rsoultin wrote:
The whole thing where LS's only 'scumread' out of 34 other people is MZ, and then he wants to kill Koshi screams to me of a Koshi that rolled scum and told his buddies to just lynch him.
If LS flips scum, MZ probably is scum, too, so that's three right there. Koshi is confirmed town though so it's ok. HOW THE FUCK IS HE CONFIRMED TOWN? HE NEVER FUCKING POSTED THIS ENTIRE GAME? On March 04 2019 00:58 Holyflare wrote:Magic LightningStrike, magic  This exchange right here. How if a player who hasn't posted at that point in time even remotely close to being considered confirmed town? The only way that you would know this is if you actually knew his alignment. Another gem. To discredit Palmar he uses this as one of his reasons to discredit him. On March 04 2019 02:51 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +
The following players had a win percentage of over .500 since the last update (min 5 games). Nice job.
ritoky 6/6 = 100.0000%
Rels 9/13 = 69.2308%
Tumblewood 6/10 = 60.0000%
Calix 3/5 = 60.0000%
Holyflare 13/22 = 59.0909%
raynpelikoneet 8/15 = 53.3333%
Koshi 9/17 = 52.9412%
Can you really trust Palmar as mayor when he's not even top 7? Bashing a player based on stats out of game rather than in game play? If you honestly believe (based on stats) that you are a better player than someone why do you need to bring that up as your reason? Should be good enough to win an election based on pure skill. On March 05 2019 08:23 Holyflare wrote:Arbitrary list. Please tell me which of the ones I haven't read should be read asap. Bit annoying the bottom half of the player list has a lot of scummy people to read. I cba writing anymore so close to deadline. 11) sicklucker 14) Damdred 16) Jockmcplop 18) Vivax 19) [UoN]Sentinel 20) Grackaroni 21) rsoultin 23) Pandain 24) darthfoley 25) Conversion 29) Meapak_Ziphh 31) BloodyC0bbler 33) Alakaslam 35) Rels TownKoshiiamperfection
Town-ishtubesock (Could be wrong on him but his filter seems clean and he's making his own conclusions (albeit just on trfel, but trfel is the new flavour of the month and he was first so looks ok) Fecalfeast (Don't hate anything he's said. In fact on page 2 of his filter everything he says there kind of aligns with what I've been thinking. His vote platform seems carefree and like he doesn't really give a shit, just wants to do his own thing. Very acro focused but not in an awful way. Content seems minimal though so he's not up at town.
NullOnegu (legit has done 0 things) Mr. Wiggles (seems resolute in looking at unturned stones, could just be blending but seems ok(?) Asked me to look into one of the T guys (tube?) but he didn't look bad in his filter at all so dropped to null) WaveofShadow I want to believe Wave has a lack of emotion but he's done this exact thing of lurking and feigning before. I'd find it hard to motivate myself if I rolled mafia in this big game after a massive break like him too He hasn't got anything to go on really. Scummy just appearing. Ace (Really has achieved not much. Voted me for mayor which is a big + and the things he says aren't not-towny in a vacuum but until he reaches a conclusion and votes not a placeholder for lynch there's really nothing to go on. Has weird posts in relation to BH when he hasn't really commented on much of the game apart from that) Oatsmaster (don't hate his new direction - which is still seemingly every direction - but he's digging at least) Tictock (This would absolutely be in the lower categories if it wasn't for his big appeal to emotion post against me which I have a big weakness for. I don't like that he decided to do the catch up style this game. He misses questions aimed towards him, gave up the style and ignored the pages in between. His logic has been wonky on a lot of people's posts and he seems to make a determined decision on someone's alignment and then make a narrative without weighing up both sides. But that AtE post though....) ExO_ When reading through the thread there was a discussion that exo was present for and he kept asking random questions and not really interacting with it and I voted him for it. Upon reading his filter I got a completely different clean impression so he's in a null placeholder until I re-read that whole time he was in thread.
Scum-ishTumblewood (looks very low effort, may be mistaken on this though but it's a lot of questions that don't end up much of anywhere and lots of seemingly sentiment following on mayor lynches) Trfel (Feel disgusting doing this (putting him in null) after he scum reads sentinel for something that happened almost 72 hours ago but I don't think he says he doesn't think Oats is posting like mafia and then backtracks and votes for him as mafia. That seems like something he'd be too self conscious to do. But then he says things like "oats (pressure vote)" as if he never meant it so this started as null but it's actually now scum-ish) Acrofales (This dude has looked scummy quite a lot. First was when he said he was sheeping Palmar because he trusted him more to find scum while scum reading the person I wanted to lynch. Then he said I didn't look that great because I was scum reading Oats for bad reasons and then he made a list of why Oats was scum which was entirely made up of my reasons. Then I said I scum read rayn and he said he doesn't scum read rayn. When Palmar came with a bs reason to scum read rayn Acro basically reneged on his plan to vote me because he agreed that Rayn looked like mafia when nothing from rayn had happened in between. Every time I think about these occurrences it makes me want to drop him down further. Don't ask me why I don't. He has ok looking breakthroughs every now and again) raynpelikoneet Talked through me. Ignroed rsoultin. Disappeared and reappeared to appeal to me and vote palmar/(think he disliked acro too). Conflicted heavily at the moment.
ScumBlazinghand (No RNG, no posts of content. Just doing whatever to seem like the good towny martyr. I think I've seen him do this exact play before as mafia.) Mocsta (This dude, does anyone know where his head is at? I sure don't. He +1s my post scum reading Palmar, gets in a shit show with Palmar and then somehow bows down to him after having a meltdown like 2.4 seconds before over Palmar's really weak Conversion read????????????? Just read his filter progression with me and Palmar and be prepared to go "What?") Palmar - (wishy washy Iamp post, wishy washy Acro post. I call him out that he has no solid scum reads and he has to hunker down and scum read someone. Defaults to Sentinel still, can't see any motivation from sentinel other than scum motivation. He then makes some bs analysis of the wagons acknowledging that his wagon is the most scum motivated one to follow but doesn't use that to reevaluate anything and doesn't question which of the people on the wagon are scummy. He defends Pandain who has literally posted nothing but coaching. This whole post to town read Damdred is so unnecessarily OTT it's ridiculous https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/542541-end-of-the-world-party-mafia?page=88#1750Makes a movement for Rayn to be mafia based on Rayn's activity which hasn't meant anything since a long time now. Doesn't even get what Rayn said correct. Doesn't even know what Damdred/Rsoul posted about LS. Not interested in figuring out game, instead tried to use others to prove his point. Wants to vote Conversion because Conversion was lazy but attributes it to mafia motivation instead of just someone being lazy. That's the crux of his entire read. Fakes some floundering on it when Conversion posts some irl excuse, seems pretty forced. After nothing in between Conversion drops off max scum vote list and is replaced with lurker and policy lynch. Not great at all.) LightningStrike (No scum reads. Only mentioned MZ once or twice but never really actually said anything about him of substance. Rage quit from the thread but still votes and still afks in the background. He finds it really hard to write scum reads as scum because it's against his nature. He hasn't done the characteristic "these two are fighting so one of them is mafia" post that he always does as town. He hasn't really given anything to go on. Rage seemed forced. He's fucking voting Palmar, jeeeeezzuusss.) Chezinu (This is without reading his filter and just off memory alone. He does not seem to be having fun, his RP posts are quite devoid of anything entertaining. He's been trying to determine if I'm blue. He has been actually posting reads and being serious which is a complete juxtaposition to any time I've ever ever seen Chezinu been town (or really mafia either) but from what I can see there seems to be agenda in Chez. I will update this on actually reading him because I can't remember a single one of his reads. Now you may look at this and go “wtf why choose this post” However look at it. His confirmed 100% town were both capped and flipped green but one of his strongest scum reads and heavily leaned scum reads both flipped town. Meaning the only place he has been correct is where he places town reads. 1 of which he had a read on 100% before the player posted. Seems super fucking fishy. She was on my radar day 1 as well. This shouldn't be a surprise. 1) She makes posts like this On March 02 2019 20:35 rsoultin wrote:
Like for me it breaks down like this:
You've got trolling people. You've got lurking people. You've got lazy people. You've got some overly aggressives that aren't giving me warm fuzzies (MP). You've got people I'm not sure about who when I'm not sure about them have a nasty habit of being scum (Rayn) but because he's burned me so often I'm not sure if that's not where the uncertainty's coming from.
And then you have seemingly excited to play, I respect the shit out of his intelligence Chez playing but not saying anything interesting. That first group can hide a lot of bad town play. But doing something without doing anything ticks off my scum meter to a higher degree. Now what gets me from this is the characterization that Chez wasn't saying anything interesting. He was roleplaying sure, but he also had a string of very useful posts that weren't roleplay at all. As someone who dislikes lazy people, and trolling people perhaps doing a proper analysis of someones posting history to that point would you know? Non hypocritical. On March 02 2019 20:58 rsoultin wrote:
What are your reads that don't matter BC? This was another read flag for me. A read that doesn't matter? Why would you ever want someone to actively give you information that is useless? Anyone can give a read but to provide no substance or reasoning for it is just useless and scummy. Asking for that info is just as bad. Now the next things for me are this. Chez is her #1 scum read. Rather than heavily pushing this (will admit she made an analysis post on him) She then waffles off wanting to off him (no real reason I could spot) then starts randomly sheeping other peoples reads On March 04 2019 16:37 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 16:30 ExO_ wrote:On March 03 2019 20:12 Palmar wrote:To be fair I mostly like Acro just for these two posts. They're the logical way to play the game. Kill the policy lynch, continue playing. On March 03 2019 17:09 Acrofales wrote:
Enters Palmar: he claims to feel strongly about killing sent. So let him do it. All you need to decide is if Palmar is townie enough. But if we decide Palmar is townie enough to be mayor then he is free to kill whoever he likes. He sticks with sentinel and sentinel flips scum? We win, yay! Sheep Palmar into Armageddon. Sentinel flips town? We figure out if Palmars policy lynch is an ideological thing or a scum thing. Either way, we get information about Palmar out of this, which is a great thing to get out of D1.
On March 03 2019 17:11 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, also, if sent was actually playing and being townie, I'd be more inclined to want him to live. But he has used this "foil" to be an attention whore and cop out of doing anything else so far. Not town play. @Palmar, let's assume Acro is the leading lynch candidate but your vote could choose somebody else to lynch. Who would you lynch instead of Acro, that isn't Sent? Palmar's entire post history seems to be super focused on this policy lynch of Sent -- that's it. Town Reads HF, Town Reads Acro. He's not wanting to scum hunt on day 1, but go all in on a policy lynch. I don't think I mind having a strong conviction about the policy lynch, but I think I do mind only green reading other people and only pushing your one policy lynch. I think Palmar is scum. I like Rayn's read on Palmar, ironically, cause I think they're both scum. Palmar not playing on a weekend is Palmar-y. Palmar playing is Palmar-y. This half and half stuff I wouldn't trust with a 10-foot pole and I hate how much support he's gotten. I also hate that some of that is probably from shit town who just see the shiny name and go oh, Palmar, he's a god, let's check our brains at the door. -cocks head at- So you've decided to play rather than whine about people saying a person who was only posting images was a good vig target? So this post just makes me want to facepalm. Why? Because she basically just said because its Palmar hes mafia. Because he has any support hes mafia. More important she is bothered by the name he has and blames shit town for trying to vote him into the slot of mayor. Now we know that Palmar flipped town. So those people that voted for him clearly arent as shit as this read of hers is. Next thing with this is she doesn't decide to hard push her own reads instead she SHEEPS unto the BH bandwagon. The thing that gets me about this is this. SHE SAYS SHE THINKS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS TO LYNCH HIM. Why the fuck do you ever want to kill a town read? Like seriously. Why would you lynch someone you believe to be town. She has scumreads for fucks sake. Was active enough to push them. Instead lets push a town read for information because the potential information is better than offing a scum. Jesus fuck. To go along with what I just said On March 06 2019 04:15 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 04:12 iamperfection wrote:On March 06 2019 04:03 rsoultin wrote:On March 06 2019 04:02 iamperfection wrote:On March 06 2019 04:01 rsoultin wrote:
Also, for the record, though I'm mocking the auto-lynch mindset perpetuated by people who can't think for themselves, a BH flip is still best for everyone and 100% should be facilitated before day phase so the idiots can have a chance to check their idiocy. Not that I'm holding my breath. You want to lynch someone you think is town...,.......................... . Yes that's what this post clearly meant good job proving why it's pointless for me to explain reads with this level of reading comprehension floating around the thread. I just see things so scummy sometimes that I stare at my phone in disbelief. You suggesting to lynch someone that is town to help clear the air is either scum motivated at best and at worst idiotic. l2r That post imo also sheds potential like on Iamp being killed. To my reading he was the only one to call her out for it.. Clearly a scum IMO.
This is mainly from a filter dive. Everything in it screams of someone coming in and skirting activity while posting nothing of substance. Hell he never comes into the thread and express a real reason or read to his vote on Trfel. Just sheeped onto it like nothing ever happened.
Hell the only real time Tumblewood even expressed a read on Trfel it was a town read. So he sheeped a wagon to off a person he believed was town. Again, no fucking reason to do this ever. Clearly red.
Whatever the particulars of the bad Palmar scumread, I still think this is easily the most compelling reason for the HF scum case: On March 06 2019 09:38 Blazinghand wrote:
HF why did you claim a shot on me?
Here's a theory as to why HF did this. It is because he is scum.
In the Scum QT:
Holyflare: Hey guys, the deadline is coming up. We know a vigi is going to shoot Blazinghand, and then probably claim after the daypost.
Other Scums: yeah, sounds accurate to me.
Holyflare: then Blazinghand will flip town, and i'm going to look real bad.
Other Scums: oh no!
Holyflare: ok, but here's the plan. I'm going to, right before the end of the night, with second on the clock, claim that I'm the vigi and am shooting BH.
Other Scums: why would you do this HF? we're not shooting BH...
Holflare: see, a vigi is going to shoot Blazinghand, and I will get autolynched D2 unless I can pose as the vigi who shot him. This will allow me to get in one more mislynch, as people will trust me. If the real vigi counterclaims, that's still a better situation than if I never claimed in the first place and just let myself get autolynched.
Other Scums: good idea
Then, for some reason, I didn't get shot, and now HF has to just pretend he never claimed he was shooting me HF has largely abandoned his provably false ideas of "well, I couldn't change the mayor lynch" given the way the mayor lynch is received mechanically and the fact he was in thread and watched and commented on the shenannnies as they went down. Just for killing Palmar is he scum? eh, maybe not. But for lying about it, then slithering away from the lie when called out? oh yeah baby I will quite literally quote my mod PM post game to prove it. Please stop posting this trash. I stand by my statement that it was locked in before I could say anything. You keep bringing this up as if it means something to us. There's gonna be some host wifom here, but not a lot: 1. I know Kita and dandel and don't think they're dicks. If you PM'd them after the vote shenanigans and said you wanted to kill BH, I'll believe they'd allow it. So based on that I believe the PM was never sent. And the PM you will show us post-game is your role PM saying you win with scum. 2. If this were true, and Kita didn't let you change the target, why'd we have to drag it out of you? It would literally be the first thing out of mouth post-flip: "shit, tried to change it, but wasn't allowed to". It would even have made sense with your "I didn't kill Palmar" post. But you didn't say anything. You didn't even say anything when called out on your troll post. This "I tried to change it but couldn't" narrative only came wayyyyy later. In fact, your whole behavior around the flip is what makes me quite sure you're scum: first the troll post makes it clear you aren't worried about your decision. Then the flip and the feels there are that you are gloating. Not shocked at how wrong you were and killed a fellow town leader. On March 05 2019 09:38 Holyflare wrote:
You guys knew what you were voting for :D Go die, scum. No, they're not dicks. I PMd them to lynch Palmar on the flight home. When the flip happened kita PMd me saying palmar is now the lynch. I probably could have PMd saying that I'd rather switch to BH and probably should have but: A) i thought the flip was literally going to happen straight away B) I was too tired to even care C) I wanted to lynch palmar anyway You don't have to care about these series of events but if what it takes is cheating to make people actually play the game and talk about scum reads that aren't me I'm not above doing it. There's no banlist and it's the last game ever. Maybe then you'd actually have to produce some content that isn't rhetoric about lynching me.
+ Show Spoiler [more hedging] +On March 06 2019 05:56 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 05:54 Blazinghand wrote:On March 06 2019 05:52 LightningStrike wrote:
Guys we lynching HF because of him killing Palmar over BH who was the opposite wagon of Tfrel was so antitown that I don't think he would do that as Town in that situation. I don't think a town HF is that big of an idiot to use the mayor lynch on a very active Palmar like that. Also his slipperiness on why he did this. It's not just that he promised, as he now claims, he was previously saying he got caught off guard and couldn't change it in time. Also pls vigi me This is true and I will prove it, just after the game. On March 06 2019 18:34 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 18:31 Blazinghand wrote:On March 06 2019 17:40 BloodyC0bbler wrote:List of reads. Joy boys and girls its time for a BC analysis post. Lets start this off with a fun person that everyone should be looking at the moment. All those who don't well, you are bad. Holyflare + Show Spoiler +Shocker I know right? The guy literally led us down a wrong path all fucking game. He has lied by his own admission multiple times. He claimed he would mayor lynch Sentinel, then Palmar. Said he wasn't serious on the Palmar lynch, then says he lies a few hours before deadline and offs Palmar who flips backup cop. He said he shot BH then claimed that he only did so to create tension in the thread. However his outrage about the game being full of blues seems one that an angry mafia could make. The other thing that gets me about his lying is he claims that he couldnt change his mayor vote because it was locked in while being insanely active right at the time the lynch was happening so could have changed it had he wished but claimed On March 05 2019 09:43 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2019 09:42 iamperfection wrote:On March 05 2019 09:41 Holyflare wrote:
for the record if I knew bh was not getting lynched I would have absolutely switched it to him but it was already locked in how is it locked in ? that makes no sense you could have changed I don't think so? I PMd it saying lynch palmar a long time ago when it was called for in the thread and when the deadline came I was told it was palmar selected. Didn't really get given any other opportunity but it is what it is. Unless things have drastically changed since I played this game. If you had any action you could take whatsoever you could change it more than once before a deadline hit. So if this has changed feel free to correct me but until then this is a straight up fucking lie. Next few thing that gets me however that stood out after a filter dive is this. On March 04 2019 00:56 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 00:55 rsoultin wrote:
The whole thing where LS's only 'scumread' out of 34 other people is MZ, and then he wants to kill Koshi screams to me of a Koshi that rolled scum and told his buddies to just lynch him.
If LS flips scum, MZ probably is scum, too, so that's three right there. Koshi is confirmed town though so it's ok. On March 04 2019 00:58 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 00:56 Holyflare wrote:On March 04 2019 00:55 rsoultin wrote:
The whole thing where LS's only 'scumread' out of 34 other people is MZ, and then he wants to kill Koshi screams to me of a Koshi that rolled scum and told his buddies to just lynch him.
If LS flips scum, MZ probably is scum, too, so that's three right there. Koshi is confirmed town though so it's ok. HOW THE FUCK IS HE CONFIRMED TOWN? HE NEVER FUCKING POSTED THIS ENTIRE GAME? On March 04 2019 00:58 Holyflare wrote:Magic LightningStrike, magic This exchange right here. How if a player who hasn't posted at that point in time even remotely close to being considered confirmed town? The only way that you would know this is if you actually knew his alignment. Another gem. To discredit Palmar he uses this as one of his reasons to discredit him. On March 04 2019 02:51 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +
The following players had a win percentage of over .500 since the last update (min 5 games). Nice job.
ritoky 6/6 = 100.0000%
Rels 9/13 = 69.2308%
Tumblewood 6/10 = 60.0000%
Calix 3/5 = 60.0000%
Holyflare 13/22 = 59.0909%
raynpelikoneet 8/15 = 53.3333%
Koshi 9/17 = 52.9412%
Can you really trust Palmar as mayor when he's not even top 7? Bashing a player based on stats out of game rather than in game play? If you honestly believe (based on stats) that you are a better player than someone why do you need to bring that up as your reason? Should be good enough to win an election based on pure skill. On March 05 2019 08:23 Holyflare wrote:Arbitrary list. Please tell me which of the ones I haven't read should be read asap. Bit annoying the bottom half of the player list has a lot of scummy people to read. I cba writing anymore so close to deadline. 11) sicklucker 14) Damdred 16) Jockmcplop 18) Vivax 19) [UoN]Sentinel 20) Grackaroni 21) rsoultin 23) Pandain 24) darthfoley 25) Conversion 29) Meapak_Ziphh 31) BloodyC0bbler 33) Alakaslam 35) Rels TownKoshiiamperfection
Town-ishtubesock (Could be wrong on him but his filter seems clean and he's making his own conclusions (albeit just on trfel, but trfel is the new flavour of the month and he was first so looks ok) Fecalfeast (Don't hate anything he's said. In fact on page 2 of his filter everything he says there kind of aligns with what I've been thinking. His vote platform seems carefree and like he doesn't really give a shit, just wants to do his own thing. Very acro focused but not in an awful way. Content seems minimal though so he's not up at town.
NullOnegu (legit has done 0 things) Mr. Wiggles (seems resolute in looking at unturned stones, could just be blending but seems ok(?) Asked me to look into one of the T guys (tube?) but he didn't look bad in his filter at all so dropped to null) WaveofShadow I want to believe Wave has a lack of emotion but he's done this exact thing of lurking and feigning before. I'd find it hard to motivate myself if I rolled mafia in this big game after a massive break like him too He hasn't got anything to go on really. Scummy just appearing. Ace (Really has achieved not much. Voted me for mayor which is a big + and the things he says aren't not-towny in a vacuum but until he reaches a conclusion and votes not a placeholder for lynch there's really nothing to go on. Has weird posts in relation to BH when he hasn't really commented on much of the game apart from that) Oatsmaster (don't hate his new direction - which is still seemingly every direction - but he's digging at least) Tictock (This would absolutely be in the lower categories if it wasn't for his big appeal to emotion post against me which I have a big weakness for. I don't like that he decided to do the catch up style this game. He misses questions aimed towards him, gave up the style and ignored the pages in between. His logic has been wonky on a lot of people's posts and he seems to make a determined decision on someone's alignment and then make a narrative without weighing up both sides. But that AtE post though....) ExO_ When reading through the thread there was a discussion that exo was present for and he kept asking random questions and not really interacting with it and I voted him for it. Upon reading his filter I got a completely different clean impression so he's in a null placeholder until I re-read that whole time he was in thread.
Scum-ishTumblewood (looks very low effort, may be mistaken on this though but it's a lot of questions that don't end up much of anywhere and lots of seemingly sentiment following on mayor lynches) Trfel (Feel disgusting doing this (putting him in null) after he scum reads sentinel for something that happened almost 72 hours ago but I don't think he says he doesn't think Oats is posting like mafia and then backtracks and votes for him as mafia. That seems like something he'd be too self conscious to do. But then he says things like "oats (pressure vote)" as if he never meant it so this started as null but it's actually now scum-ish) Acrofales (This dude has looked scummy quite a lot. First was when he said he was sheeping Palmar because he trusted him more to find scum while scum reading the person I wanted to lynch. Then he said I didn't look that great because I was scum reading Oats for bad reasons and then he made a list of why Oats was scum which was entirely made up of my reasons. Then I said I scum read rayn and he said he doesn't scum read rayn. When Palmar came with a bs reason to scum read rayn Acro basically reneged on his plan to vote me because he agreed that Rayn looked like mafia when nothing from rayn had happened in between. Every time I think about these occurrences it makes me want to drop him down further. Don't ask me why I don't. He has ok looking breakthroughs every now and again) raynpelikoneet Talked through me. Ignroed rsoultin. Disappeared and reappeared to appeal to me and vote palmar/(think he disliked acro too). Conflicted heavily at the moment.
ScumBlazinghand (No RNG, no posts of content. Just doing whatever to seem like the good towny martyr. I think I've seen him do this exact play before as mafia.) Mocsta (This dude, does anyone know where his head is at? I sure don't. He +1s my post scum reading Palmar, gets in a shit show with Palmar and then somehow bows down to him after having a meltdown like 2.4 seconds before over Palmar's really weak Conversion read????????????? Just read his filter progression with me and Palmar and be prepared to go "What?") Palmar - (wishy washy Iamp post, wishy washy Acro post. I call him out that he has no solid scum reads and he has to hunker down and scum read someone. Defaults to Sentinel still, can't see any motivation from sentinel other than scum motivation. He then makes some bs analysis of the wagons acknowledging that his wagon is the most scum motivated one to follow but doesn't use that to reevaluate anything and doesn't question which of the people on the wagon are scummy. He defends Pandain who has literally posted nothing but coaching. This whole post to town read Damdred is so unnecessarily OTT it's ridiculous https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/542541-end-of-the-world-party-mafia?page=88#1750Makes a movement for Rayn to be mafia based on Rayn's activity which hasn't meant anything since a long time now. Doesn't even get what Rayn said correct. Doesn't even know what Damdred/Rsoul posted about LS. Not interested in figuring out game, instead tried to use others to prove his point. Wants to vote Conversion because Conversion was lazy but attributes it to mafia motivation instead of just someone being lazy. That's the crux of his entire read. Fakes some floundering on it when Conversion posts some irl excuse, seems pretty forced. After nothing in between Conversion drops off max scum vote list and is replaced with lurker and policy lynch. Not great at all.) LightningStrike (No scum reads. Only mentioned MZ once or twice but never really actually said anything about him of substance. Rage quit from the thread but still votes and still afks in the background. He finds it really hard to write scum reads as scum because it's against his nature. He hasn't done the characteristic "these two are fighting so one of them is mafia" post that he always does as town. He hasn't really given anything to go on. Rage seemed forced. He's fucking voting Palmar, jeeeeezzuusss.) Chezinu (This is without reading his filter and just off memory alone. He does not seem to be having fun, his RP posts are quite devoid of anything entertaining. He's been trying to determine if I'm blue. He has been actually posting reads and being serious which is a complete juxtaposition to any time I've ever ever seen Chezinu been town (or really mafia either) but from what I can see there seems to be agenda in Chez. I will update this on actually reading him because I can't remember a single one of his reads. Now you may look at this and go “wtf why choose this post” However look at it. His confirmed 100% town were both capped and flipped green but one of his strongest scum reads and heavily leaned scum reads both flipped town. Meaning the only place he has been correct is where he places town reads. 1 of which he had a read on 100% before the player posted. Seems super fucking fishy. She was on my radar day 1 as well. This shouldn't be a surprise. 1) She makes posts like this On March 02 2019 20:35 rsoultin wrote:
Like for me it breaks down like this:
You've got trolling people. You've got lurking people. You've got lazy people. You've got some overly aggressives that aren't giving me warm fuzzies (MP). You've got people I'm not sure about who when I'm not sure about them have a nasty habit of being scum (Rayn) but because he's burned me so often I'm not sure if that's not where the uncertainty's coming from.
And then you have seemingly excited to play, I respect the shit out of his intelligence Chez playing but not saying anything interesting. That first group can hide a lot of bad town play. But doing something without doing anything ticks off my scum meter to a higher degree. Now what gets me from this is the characterization that Chez wasn't saying anything interesting. He was roleplaying sure, but he also had a string of very useful posts that weren't roleplay at all. As someone who dislikes lazy people, and trolling people perhaps doing a proper analysis of someones posting history to that point would you know? Non hypocritical. On March 02 2019 20:58 rsoultin wrote:
What are your reads that don't matter BC? This was another read flag for me. A read that doesn't matter? Why would you ever want someone to actively give you information that is useless? Anyone can give a read but to provide no substance or reasoning for it is just useless and scummy. Asking for that info is just as bad. Now the next things for me are this. Chez is her #1 scum read. Rather than heavily pushing this (will admit she made an analysis post on him) She then waffles off wanting to off him (no real reason I could spot) then starts randomly sheeping other peoples reads On March 04 2019 16:37 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2019 16:30 ExO_ wrote:On March 03 2019 20:12 Palmar wrote:To be fair I mostly like Acro just for these two posts. They're the logical way to play the game. Kill the policy lynch, continue playing. On March 03 2019 17:09 Acrofales wrote:
Enters Palmar: he claims to feel strongly about killing sent. So let him do it. All you need to decide is if Palmar is townie enough. But if we decide Palmar is townie enough to be mayor then he is free to kill whoever he likes. He sticks with sentinel and sentinel flips scum? We win, yay! Sheep Palmar into Armageddon. Sentinel flips town? We figure out if Palmars policy lynch is an ideological thing or a scum thing. Either way, we get information about Palmar out of this, which is a great thing to get out of D1.
On March 03 2019 17:11 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, also, if sent was actually playing and being townie, I'd be more inclined to want him to live. But he has used this "foil" to be an attention whore and cop out of doing anything else so far. Not town play. @Palmar, let's assume Acro is the leading lynch candidate but your vote could choose somebody else to lynch. Who would you lynch instead of Acro, that isn't Sent? Palmar's entire post history seems to be super focused on this policy lynch of Sent -- that's it. Town Reads HF, Town Reads Acro. He's not wanting to scum hunt on day 1, but go all in on a policy lynch. I don't think I mind having a strong conviction about the policy lynch, but I think I do mind only green reading other people and only pushing your one policy lynch. I think Palmar is scum. I like Rayn's read on Palmar, ironically, cause I think they're both scum. Palmar not playing on a weekend is Palmar-y. Palmar playing is Palmar-y. This half and half stuff I wouldn't trust with a 10-foot pole and I hate how much support he's gotten. I also hate that some of that is probably from shit town who just see the shiny name and go oh, Palmar, he's a god, let's check our brains at the door. -cocks head at- So you've decided to play rather than whine about people saying a person who was only posting images was a good vig target? So this post just makes me want to facepalm. Why? Because she basically just said because its Palmar hes mafia. Because he has any support hes mafia. More important she is bothered by the name he has and blames shit town for trying to vote him into the slot of mayor. Now we know that Palmar flipped town. So those people that voted for him clearly arent as shit as this read of hers is. Next thing with this is she doesn't decide to hard push her own reads instead she SHEEPS unto the BH bandwagon. The thing that gets me about this is this. SHE SAYS SHE THINKS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS TO LYNCH HIM. Why the fuck do you ever want to kill a town read? Like seriously. Why would you lynch someone you believe to be town. She has scumreads for fucks sake. Was active enough to push them. Instead lets push a town read for information because the potential information is better than offing a scum. Jesus fuck. To go along with what I just said On March 06 2019 04:15 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 04:12 iamperfection wrote:On March 06 2019 04:03 rsoultin wrote:On March 06 2019 04:02 iamperfection wrote:On March 06 2019 04:01 rsoultin wrote:
Also, for the record, though I'm mocking the auto-lynch mindset perpetuated by people who can't think for themselves, a BH flip is still best for everyone and 100% should be facilitated before day phase so the idiots can have a chance to check their idiocy. Not that I'm holding my breath. You want to lynch someone you think is town...,.......................... . Yes that's what this post clearly meant good job proving why it's pointless for me to explain reads with this level of reading comprehension floating around the thread. I just see things so scummy sometimes that I stare at my phone in disbelief. You suggesting to lynch someone that is town to help clear the air is either scum motivated at best and at worst idiotic. l2r That post imo also sheds potential like on Iamp being killed. To my reading he was the only one to call her out for it.. Clearly a scum IMO.
This is mainly from a filter dive. Everything in it screams of someone coming in and skirting activity while posting nothing of substance. Hell he never comes into the thread and express a real reason or read to his vote on Trfel. Just sheeped onto it like nothing ever happened.
Hell the only real time Tumblewood even expressed a read on Trfel it was a town read. So he sheeped a wagon to off a person he believed was town. Again, no fucking reason to do this ever. Clearly red.
Whatever the particulars of the bad Palmar scumread, I still think this is easily the most compelling reason for the HF scum case: On March 06 2019 09:38 Blazinghand wrote:
HF why did you claim a shot on me?
Here's a theory as to why HF did this. It is because he is scum.
In the Scum QT:
Holyflare: Hey guys, the deadline is coming up. We know a vigi is going to shoot Blazinghand, and then probably claim after the daypost.
Other Scums: yeah, sounds accurate to me.
Holyflare: then Blazinghand will flip town, and i'm going to look real bad.
Other Scums: oh no!
Holyflare: ok, but here's the plan. I'm going to, right before the end of the night, with second on the clock, claim that I'm the vigi and am shooting BH.
Other Scums: why would you do this HF? we're not shooting BH...
Holflare: see, a vigi is going to shoot Blazinghand, and I will get autolynched D2 unless I can pose as the vigi who shot him. This will allow me to get in one more mislynch, as people will trust me. If the real vigi counterclaims, that's still a better situation than if I never claimed in the first place and just let myself get autolynched.
Other Scums: good idea
Then, for some reason, I didn't get shot, and now HF has to just pretend he never claimed he was shooting me HF has largely abandoned his provably false ideas of "well, I couldn't change the mayor lynch" given the way the mayor lynch is received mechanically and the fact he was in thread and watched and commented on the shenannnies as they went down. Just for killing Palmar is he scum? eh, maybe not. But for lying about it, then slithering away from the lie when called out? oh yeah baby I will quite literally quote my mod PM post game to prove it. Please stop posting this trash. I stand by my statement that it was locked in before I could say anything. On March 06 2019 08:39 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 08:19 Oatsmaster wrote:On March 05 2019 01:01 kitaman27 wrote:
In case there was any confusion regarding the mechanics of the mayor lynch, the night post will be delayed until the mayor submits their lynch. If the leading candidates do not anticipate being around for the deadline and want to submit their lynch via PM ahead of time, that is fine. The game will be paused until the mayor lynch has been submitted and then the night post will be posted, revealing the alignments and roles of both lynched players. Holyflare where in this does it say that you can’t change your lynch Can we just fucking drop this and I will prove it to you after the game?
So we have Holyflare claiming he would absolutely 100% have changed his vote, but he couldn't. We have no evidence pointing to say that he couldn't. And we have Holyflare claiming that he didn't want to change his vote anyway. We also have him claiming he was too tired, despite not going to bed until at least 2 hours later:
On March 05 2019 10:50 Holyflare wrote:
Stuff
So Holyflare is just throwing reasons around for why he ended up killing Palmar, and definitely can't keep is story straight. What is it? Was it locked in? Or did he not even try? Don't bother answering, as the answer doesn't really matter. The point of this exchange is that holyflare was waffling. And when he got caught wafffling, he started to mix up the story.
This is because the entire story was made up in the first place. Holyflare never had the slightest intent of switching to him, as exhibited by the timeline above. Holyflare was here and active, and was even trolling us about killing or not killing Palmar. Which brings us to exhibit B.
Exhibit B: the post-flip victory dance
Your honor, I call my first witness Dr. P. S. Ychologist. Now bear with me, this will be a bit long. But at the end it will be demonstrated beyond a doubt that the motive for killing Palmar can only come from mafia.
Dr. Ychologist, what do you think of Holyflare's personality?
"Well, I don't know the young man very well, but everything I have seen about him is that he suffers from the narcissistic egomaniac syndrome"
Ah. And what does this mean?
"It means that he cannot fathom that the world does not revolve around him. He cannot be wrong, nor can it be that someone else is perhaps held in higher esteem at any point. I would like to add that this is being generous. If the young man is perchance not an egomaniac then there is absolutely no way we could possibly explain his behaviour as upright. Egomania is a serious disorder, but not necessarily mafia."
Okay, so you believe holyflare's mindset is that of a mafioso, despite his disorder, and not because of it.
"That is correct."
Right. But why?
"Well, let us imagine we are the young accused. It is almost flip time and the mayor vote cannot possibly elude him. He is feeling empowered, ya? He is the king of town, and he has found a scum Palmar."
Wait. As an egomaniac does he care that Palmar is scum? Or does he only care that Palmar was a competitor?
"We have questioned the accused, and present the transcripts. There is no doubt about his claims: he says he believed the victim to be a mafioso"
On March 06 2019 23:01 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 22:32 Acrofales wrote:On March 06 2019 22:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On March 06 2019 22:01 Tubesock wrote:
I’d scum the shit out if HF if he platformed killing Palmar, cased and scumread him, and didn’t kill him. Maybe MAYBE not if he killed scum instead. I think I’d still think he could be scum for killing a lurker mafia.
To me the ONLY plausible reason to scumread HF is because he said he tried to change it. And even that is 50/50 really. Everything else he’s done has been good for town.
People say he has a big ego, you think he thought Palmar was scum and wouldn’t shoot for epic plays???
You voters should be arguing that HF didn’t really believe his Palmar case.
But you can’t cause he did. This! This is the thing that makes all "HF is scum" believers either retards or mafia. You're scumming me, but I literally did that. On March 06 2019 20:50 Acrofales wrote:
I know you're new here, but what the hell is this? Doing "specifically pro-mafia stuff" is stuff town doesn't do. You say it's a bad read, but him killing Palmar was almost entirely off his ego being too big for Palmar to beat him in a mayor election. There isn't even any townie reasoning there, it is entirely based on "goal 1": the town isn't big enough for the two of them, so he kills Palmar. It wasn't a "bad read". It wasn't a read at all. I don't have time right now to collect all my notes in one place, but this is clearly important. So here is his Palmar case: On March 04 2019 18:14 Holyflare wrote:On March 04 2019 18:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 18:07 Holyflare wrote:
My mayor lynch will be on Palmar by the way. I can get behind this, but what's the reasoning behind it? Only talks about town reads, has no suspicions on pretty much anything in the game. Perpetuates nonsense policy lynch after he likes Sentinel's effort when he hasn't even read it. His last post about acro is entirely a wall of hedge whereby he looks like he's falsely weighing up Acro's alignment but really it's wishy washy and says nothing. His iamp read looks completely bs too for similar reasons to his acro read. Iamp is town but wait here's reasons I can say he's not town later in the game. None of this is concrete town palmar stuff. There's also the fact we can acknowledge that mafia were pushing for his candidacy if he does flip mafia This was on sunday evening, when he was mostly right that Palmar hadn't played much yet. But they were both around all of monday, and nothing happened except HF's ego got more hurt: On March 05 2019 06:38 Holyflare wrote:
Palmar (11): Palmar, Ticktock, Meapak_Zipphh, Acrofales, Vivax, WaveofShadow, Grackaroni, Conversion, Alakaslam, Trfel, Blazinghand
How has this guy got 11 people voting for him when his sole policy is only to kill Sentinel who doesn't even look bad?
Almost the entirety, if not THE entirety of this wagon is the sketchiest people in this game. It's even growing! And this one is blatantly false: On March 05 2019 07:18 Holyflare wrote:
Especially now that more people are actually voting him when he has said nothing else of value. Like... I did the exercise at the time, and tried to read Palmar as scum. I got through the weekend thinking he might be right, because Palmar posted a policy lynch and a bunch of town reads. I did find he was throwing off townie vibes, but figured it might have been him throwing me a green read to bedazzle me. But all of monday (the above post is made an hour and a bit before deadline), Palmar was deep diving people, engaging people, and hunting scum. Classifying that as "nothing of value" is nonsense. So no, HF really didn't have much of a case on Palmar at all. Definitely not one that shows conviction, and certainly not one where he is trying to actually figure out if he's right or not. He parked the case on Sunday evening and didn't bother analysing anything Palmar did all of Monday. Now I get that HF is apparently an egomaniac, but he is completely uncritical of his read. He doesn't return to it, just reiterates any time anybody asks that he will kill Palmar. Lamp and Koshi come to their own conclusions of Palmar. They were obviously wrong, but you can see their thought process and you can see Koshi engage with Palmar about it. Not so at all with HF. This is pretty misconstrued. Who did Palmar want to kill other than sentinel? Who the fuck knows until right near deadline where he finally posted something and also spammed wiggles. This also isn't all I posted in the slightest: Show nested quote +On March 05 2019 10:03 Holyflare wrote:On March 05 2019 09:53 marvellosity wrote:
HF mate, why did you actually kill Palmar?
I don't want a quote from your posts, just the actual reason(s) ? I thought his early posts were colossally bad. I didn't like how he kept coming up with reasons to read people one way or another that on closer inspection turned out to be massively false and then he'd just brush it away. This happened with: Rayn - where he came up with some factually incorrect meta and falsehoods in this game that got disproved and then called out by Rayn himself and Palmar just hand waved it away LS read - where he tried to further his incorrect point that he must be right on LS because rsoul and damdred agreed with him (and also therefore damdred must be town because they agreed on LS(????????????????)). It turned out neither of them really agreed anymore but he didn't update that read on damdred At the time I submitted the vote on palmar he had only 2 real attempts at scum reads and they turned out to be hedges instead on both acro and iamp so he really had no scum reads. He only started trying to scum read people after I called him out on it. Outside of Palmar himself there was an overwhelming wagon building on Palmar's mayorship out of nowhere. He had only stated that he was going to lynch sentinel and then after Sentinel posted not bad walls of text he never updated that read. His wagon kept growing but with nobody really casting doubt on Sentinel further (other than like 1-2 people) so Palmar seemed to be in direct contention with my mayor votes for absolutely no reason whatsoever (I even had sentinel as my lynch policy for a long while). I ultimately ended up still lynching Palmar: A) because my vote was locked in and I never really got to change it to BH when your slot and vivax saved him B) I would much rather have fun with a lynch on a really polarising player to lynch instead of some shitty policy lynch anyway that may or may not have actually turned into a scum BH. We now have about 100 different reads on this lynch and we have the flip to boot. It wouldn't have been the same if Palmar didn't flip either. I was tempted to vote some non-entity but that's really really fucking boring and wouldn't be fun. Show nested quote +Palmar - (wishy washy Iamp post, wishy washy Acro post. I call him out that he has no solid scum reads and he has to hunker down and scum read someone. Defaults to Sentinel still, can't see any motivation from sentinel other than scum motivation. He then makes some bs analysis of the wagons acknowledging that his wagon is the most scum motivated one to follow but doesn't use that to reevaluate anything and doesn't question which of the people on the wagon are scummy. He defends Pandain who has literally posted nothing but coaching. This whole post to town read Damdred is so unnecessarily OTT it's ridiculous https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/542541-end-of-the-world-party-mafia?page=88#1750Makes a movement for Rayn to be mafia based on Rayn's activity which hasn't meant anything since a long time now. Doesn't even get what Rayn said correct. Doesn't even know what Damdred/Rsoul posted about LS. Not interested in figuring out game, instead tried to use others to prove his point. Wants to vote Conversion because Conversion was lazy but attributes it to mafia motivation instead of just someone being lazy. That's the crux of his entire read. Fakes some floundering on it when Conversion posts some irl excuse, seems pretty forced. After nothing in between Conversion drops off max scum vote list and is replaced with lurker and policy lynch. Not great at all.)
"When further pressed upon this matter he let there be no doubt he absolutely believed Palmar to be a mafioso at the time"
On March 06 2019 23:47 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2019 23:39 Acrofales wrote:On March 06 2019 23:01 Holyflare wrote:On March 06 2019 22:32 Acrofales wrote:On March 06 2019 22:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:On March 06 2019 22:01 Tubesock wrote:
I’d scum the shit out if HF if he platformed killing Palmar, cased and scumread him, and didn’t kill him. Maybe MAYBE not if he killed scum instead. I think I’d still think he could be scum for killing a lurker mafia.
To me the ONLY plausible reason to scumread HF is because he said he tried to change it. And even that is 50/50 really. Everything else he’s done has been good for town.
People say he has a big ego, you think he thought Palmar was scum and wouldn’t shoot for epic plays???
You voters should be arguing that HF didn’t really believe his Palmar case.
But you can’t cause he did. This! This is the thing that makes all "HF is scum" believers either retards or mafia. You're scumming me, but I literally did that. On March 06 2019 20:50 Acrofales wrote:
I know you're new here, but what the hell is this? Doing "specifically pro-mafia stuff" is stuff town doesn't do. You say it's a bad read, but him killing Palmar was almost entirely off his ego being too big for Palmar to beat him in a mayor election. There isn't even any townie reasoning there, it is entirely based on "goal 1": the town isn't big enough for the two of them, so he kills Palmar. It wasn't a "bad read". It wasn't a read at all. I don't have time right now to collect all my notes in one place, but this is clearly important. So here is his Palmar case: On March 04 2019 18:14 Holyflare wrote:On March 04 2019 18:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 04 2019 18:07 Holyflare wrote:
My mayor lynch will be on Palmar by the way. I can get behind this, but what's the reasoning behind it? Only talks about town reads, has no suspicions on pretty much anything in the game. Perpetuates nonsense policy lynch after he likes Sentinel's effort when he hasn't even read it. His last post about acro is entirely a wall of hedge whereby he looks like he's falsely weighing up Acro's alignment but really it's wishy washy and says nothing. His iamp read looks completely bs too for similar reasons to his acro read. Iamp is town but wait here's reasons I can say he's not town later in the game. None of this is concrete town palmar stuff. There's also the fact we can acknowledge that mafia were pushing for his candidacy if he does flip mafia This was on sunday evening, when he was mostly right that Palmar hadn't played much yet. But they were both around all of monday, and nothing happened except HF's ego got more hurt: On March 05 2019 06:38 Holyflare wrote:
Palmar (11): Palmar, Ticktock, Meapak_Zipphh, Acrofales, Vivax, WaveofShadow, Grackaroni, Conversion, Alakaslam, Trfel, Blazinghand
How has this guy got 11 people voting for him when his sole policy is only to kill Sentinel who doesn't even look bad?
Almost the entirety, if not THE entirety of this wagon is the sketchiest people in this game. It's even growing! And this one is blatantly false: On March 05 2019 07:18 Holyflare wrote:
Especially now that more people are actually voting him when he has said nothing else of value. Like... I did the exercise at the time, and tried to read Palmar as scum. I got through the weekend thinking he might be right, because Palmar posted a policy lynch and a bunch of town reads. I did find he was throwing off townie vibes, but figured it might have been him throwing me a green read to bedazzle me. But all of monday (the above post is made an hour and a bit before deadline), Palmar was deep diving people, engaging people, and hunting scum. Classifying that as "nothing of value" is nonsense. So no, HF really didn't have much of a case on Palmar at all. Definitely not one that shows conviction, and certainly not one where he is trying to actually figure out if he's right or not. He parked the case on Sunday evening and didn't bother analysing anything Palmar did all of Monday. Now I get that HF is apparently an egomaniac, but he is completely uncritical of his read. He doesn't return to it, just reiterates any time anybody asks that he will kill Palmar. Lamp and Koshi come to their own conclusions of Palmar. They were obviously wrong, but you can see their thought process and you can see Koshi engage with Palmar about it. Not so at all with HF. This is pretty misconstrued. Who did Palmar want to kill other than sentinel? Who the fuck knows until right near deadline where he finally posted something and also spammed wiggles. This also isn't all I posted in the slightest: On March 05 2019 10:03 Holyflare wrote:On March 05 2019 09:53 marvellosity wrote:
HF mate, why did you actually kill Palmar?
I don't want a quote from your posts, just the actual reason(s) ? I thought his early posts were colossally bad. I didn't like how he kept coming up with reasons to read people one way or another that on closer inspection turned out to be massively false and then he'd just brush it away. This happened with: Rayn - where he came up with some factually incorrect meta and falsehoods in this game that got disproved and then called out by Rayn himself and Palmar just hand waved it away LS read - where he tried to further his incorrect point that he must be right on LS because rsoul and damdred agreed with him (and also therefore damdred must be town because they agreed on LS(????????????????)). It turned out neither of them really agreed anymore but he didn't update that read on damdred At the time I submitted the vote on palmar he had only 2 real attempts at scum reads and they turned out to be hedges instead on both acro and iamp so he really had no scum reads. He only started trying to scum read people after I called him out on it. Outside of Palmar himself there was an overwhelming wagon building on Palmar's mayorship out of nowhere. He had only stated that he was going to lynch sentinel and then after Sentinel posted not bad walls of text he never updated that read. His wagon kept growing but with nobody really casting doubt on Sentinel further (other than like 1-2 people) so Palmar seemed to be in direct contention with my mayor votes for absolutely no reason whatsoever (I even had sentinel as my lynch policy for a long while). I ultimately ended up still lynching Palmar: A) because my vote was locked in and I never really got to change it to BH when your slot and vivax saved him B) I would much rather have fun with a lynch on a really polarising player to lynch instead of some shitty policy lynch anyway that may or may not have actually turned into a scum BH. We now have about 100 different reads on this lynch and we have the flip to boot. It wouldn't have been the same if Palmar didn't flip either. I was tempted to vote some non-entity but that's really really fucking boring and wouldn't be fun. Palmar - (wishy washy Iamp post, wishy washy Acro post. I call him out that he has no solid scum reads and he has to hunker down and scum read someone. Defaults to Sentinel still, can't see any motivation from sentinel other than scum motivation. He then makes some bs analysis of the wagons acknowledging that his wagon is the most scum motivated one to follow but doesn't use that to reevaluate anything and doesn't question which of the people on the wagon are scummy. He defends Pandain who has literally posted nothing but coaching. This whole post to town read Damdred is so unnecessarily OTT it's ridiculous https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/542541-end-of-the-world-party-mafia?page=88#1750Makes a movement for Rayn to be mafia based on Rayn's activity which hasn't meant anything since a long time now. Doesn't even get what Rayn said correct. Doesn't even know what Damdred/Rsoul posted about LS. Not interested in figuring out game, instead tried to use others to prove his point. Wants to vote Conversion because Conversion was lazy but attributes it to mafia motivation instead of just someone being lazy. That's the crux of his entire read. Fakes some floundering on it when Conversion posts some irl excuse, seems pretty forced. After nothing in between Conversion drops off max scum vote list and is replaced with lurker and policy lynch. Not great at all.) The former is literally after the lynch happened. The latter is a list post half an hour before the lynch when you've been harping on about Palmar all day. Both are a posteriori justifications rather than actually engaging him. And in particular the latter about when Palmar started scumhunting is quite blatantly false. But we can argue about that until we're both blue in the face, because you'll probably just "no true Scotsman" his scumhunting, just like rayn just did. No, it is not false. I called Palmar out with the original paragraph where I said I wanted to lynch him, with which you even explicitly said you agreed with. Then Palmar started scum hunting and I thought everything he said was scummy. Also how have I not interacted with Palmar? Almost everything in my list post case is because I interacted with Palmar to make him elaborate on those mistakes. Unless now you're adding another reason that me being on holiday and not formulating everything into one central place until I actually had time to on a PC is scummy?
So there is no doubt this was not just done for the lolz?
"No. Even though the lolz might have figured into the kill. He claims he was doing it in order to rid Liquidia of scum"
This seems like a very noble deed. But it is not true, is it?
"Unfortunately not. To see why, we need to analyse the young man's behaviour when the deed was done. The accused was cocky. He was even --- what do the kids these days call it? --- trolling. Let us be charitable and attribute this to the young man being extremely certain he was murdering a mafioso."
On March 05 2019 08:58 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2019 08:58 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:56 Palmar wrote:On March 05 2019 08:55 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:53 Palmar wrote:On March 05 2019 08:50 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:45 Holyflare wrote:On March 05 2019 08:42 Trfel wrote:On March 05 2019 08:37 Koshi wrote:On March 05 2019 08:32 Trfel wrote:
STILL NO ONE HAS SAID A SINGLE THING TO ME
NOT ONE EXPLANATION OF WHY I AM MAFIA
NOT ONE QUESTION
NOTHING
Do you realize what is happening? If I'm lynched, fine, whatever, but someone acknowledge my existence please! I think you are mafia and I told you why. Disconnect in every other post you made. That is enough. Show me the disconnects, that's simply not true. I already explained the two disconnects that exist. If you show me more I can explain them too, nothing even has merit except for those two. @Holyflare, I'd take another look at Fecalfeast and Mocsta. Mocsta's play felt honest and genuine to me, admittedly he hasn't done much but I don't think that's mafia indicative. I know that Fecalfeast enjoys playing scum (heck he has one of the highest mafia winrates on the site) and he's relaxed and carefree as mafia, IIRC he's more relaxed and carefree and fun-loving as mafia than town. As mafia he plays to exist and survive, not to push stuff, and that's exactly what he is doing here. Otherwise, just please don't start a big fight between you and raynnpelikoneet or anyone else that causes massive tunnels. Can you explain the mocsta progression on Palmar then? How can he go from so rage-y and agreeing with my posts against Palmar to suddenly voting Conversion with palmar and agreeing like nothing had happened? Huh. To be honest I couldn't tell you. I guess never mind me then, I'm still not really convinced he's mafia but I couldn't (and wouldn't) stop anyone who said otherwise. You and Exo You guys need to explain your scumread on me But I don't have a scumread on you? I'm just trusting Holyflare. The whole saving me thing and all. Why are you voting to lynch me then? I'm not? Unless you mean voting Holyflare for mayor, because I trust him to do the right thing. And I kinda expect he won't kill you, but I probably shouldn't say that, it makes him more likely to. But you asked. I've re-submitted my lynch to Palmar from Palmar.
On March 05 2019 09:00 Holyflare wrote:
lol I didn't kill palmar
Now let us skip forward to after young Palmar tragically bled out in the streets of Liquidia and his blood ran blue.
The accused responded with:
On March 05 2019 09:38 Holyflare wrote:
You guys knew what you were voting for :D
There is no surprise. No remorse. No self-doubt. Now this could have been explained from a deceipted townsman if he had claimed he was doing it, as they say 'for the lulz'. It would even fit his egomaniac personality to do it only for this reason. But that is not what the accused has claimed. So let us put ourselves in his shoes for a second: he has been voted 'the blade of Liquidia' and in front of him stands the evil Palmar, lord of scumsters united. He thrusts his blade straight into Palmar's heart and a spurt of blue blood streams out as Palmar yells, with his dying breath
+ Show Spoiler [I'm a cop you idiot] +
The instinctive reaction of an upright townie who truly believed that Palmar was scum, regardless of narcissism, would be shock, disbelief, remorse. Yet none of that is evident in the accused's reaction. He seems... self-satisfied"
Self-satisfied?
"Yes. He doesn't blame himself. He immediately shifts the blame to "those who voted for him". Moreover, he is happy about it, as evidenced by his smiling laugh. This is not the look of a man devastated by his bad choice. This is the look of a man who has pulled off the caper of a century, yet has to somehow dissimulate it all as a big mistake."
Aha. So there is no way this could just be egomaniacal pride about having shiv'd Palmar for the lulz?
"It is my informed opinion that that is not possible. He is fully aware that he looks guilty as all hell, yet is somehow still flippant about it:
On March 05 2019 09:39 Holyflare wrote:
not mafia tho
Combine this with his insistance that he was scumreading Palmar all game, and it just doesn't add up."
Thank you very much for your help, Dr. Ychologist.
The prosecution rests their case. We deem it shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that holyflare murdered Palmar with mafioso intentions, and we request the maximum penalty: death by lynching.
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