• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:51
CEST 17:51
KST 00:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star5Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists14[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced52026 GSL Tour plans announced14Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid22
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 522 Flip My Base The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss Mutation # 520 Moving Fees
Brood War
General
ASL21 Strategy, Pimpest Plays Discussions Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group C Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2060 users

Liquidmania Qualifier #2 - Page 10

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 27 Next All
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:04 GMT
#942
whatever damdred can tell you tbh it's not entirely important he just needs to step up and talk A LOT for now because he hasn't posted an excuse for the next cycle yet
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:12 GMT
#943
Honestly I wouldnt lynch you or HF today. I normally stray away from trying to get a read on him early. Because when I do I am usually wrong but when we get to lylo and he is still around I can usually get a read on him either by does he have a reason to be alive and if he does have a reason does his shit make sense.

I would lynch you over him at this point and it hurts me to say this.

On January 17 2017 13:59 Onegu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2017 12:54 Hapahauli wrote:
First Holyflare. Does it make sense to you that town HF has all those scumreads and behaves as he does? Or are you just not considering HF period.

I'll look at Rels. My impression of his play up till now was that I was disagreeing with a lot of what he said, but nothing he said was suspicious.



I have seen town HF have so many scum reads it was dumb. And I have seen town HF have very few scumreads day 1. I really just dont try to read him until later in the game. My thoughts is if he is town scum have to shoot him because he will figure things out eventually. And if he is scum is reads later in the game wont make as much sense and he will still be alive which under normal circumstances he wont. I have been in games where scum left him alive until mylo and he solved the game. It just takes time for me to form a read I am comfortable with on him.


you've also been in games where scum have just left me alive and I'm a confused mofo who scum reads everyone though sooooo this isn't much of a read but a cop out

Which makes HF null to me now and lynching him would be a 2/9 chance of getting it correct. And if we get it wrong and lynch a town HF we lose one of the best scum hunters on this site.

On January 18 2017 01:14 Onegu wrote:
I am here. I dont want to lynch HF. I really dont want to. Dont lynch HF.

On January 18 2017 01:14 Onegu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 01:13 Alakaslam wrote:
I would far rather lynch Damdred but in majority I have to compromise to get a lynch.



Would lynch Damdred over HF

On January 18 2017 02:11 Onegu wrote:
Would let you lynch me over HF. I think he is a coin flip at best and the chance that he is town and wins it for me would give him mvp and me the second most points for saving him. Im willing to risk it.


this is kinda unnerving amounts of dedication tbh

onegu you're back on The List™
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:22 GMT
#945
Holyflare

The 3 in the middle are not so much null, as I haven't filtered them in detail yet.


wut
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:24 GMT
#946
hapa if mafia is damdred + x and damdred legitimately had to go then why is it suspicious that other people were talking about damdred? there's pretty much only one other person that could have done that at the time (slam was your other scum read) and can you see slam changing anyone's mind about anything?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:25 GMT
#947
pretty much only one other mafia that could switch people off damdred* so a majority of people talking about damdred being suspicious shouldn't be that suspicious, no?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:26 GMT
#948
basically what I'm saying is why is he your 2nd highest town when you just called him a coin flip earlier and all he's done since is drop by and vote and leave again?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 20:54 GMT
#952
oh my god

so everything I found you scummy for and you not evaluating damdred at all and him looking just like you but you scum reading him and you now think he's town for that exact reason???????????????????????????
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 23:24 GMT
#1000
let me ask you this again vivax


Vivax why was ls a bad lynch and we're all tools?

Why did you jump right on the hapa train based on one contradiction but when ls had three pointed out in quick succession we're tools for switching?


and please don't whine and say we're blaming you with false facts, LS had multiple inconsistencies in his filter that were pushed and ultimately got him lynched, LS wasn't talked about no but neither was hapa being mafia by anyone but me

you say you don't even know the reason LS was lynched and state it was some meek damdred post which isn't true at all
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 23:25 GMT
#1001
you've shut me out and ignored me for the entirety of the second half of the cycle so nothing has changed but please make it so
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 23:54 GMT
#1007
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

On January 18 2017 02:09 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:08 Bill Murray wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

what do u mean its the other way around, now?


ls is voting me over hapa


On January 18 2017 02:11 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:10 LightningStrike wrote:
On mobile
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

I liked you plus vivax's case on HF when I caught up and I also noted how I thought hf was a little nitpicky on Damdred -.-


Which I dropped when I completely saw the points hapa made??? Explain why it was nitpicky LS.


On January 18 2017 02:12 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:10 Bill Murray wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:09 Holyflare wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:08 Bill Murray wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

what do u mean its the other way around, now?


ls is voting me over hapa

i took what ls said as he suspected u over hapa when he said it earlier was there a point he flip flopped on that because there was definitely a period he "wasnt sure who was the "s" in his T V S" he called between u two

Show nested quote +
On January 17 2017 01:15 LightningStrike wrote:
Show nested quote +

Town
Damdred: Meta and actions suggest more likely town than scum.
Vivax: He had good pressure on Hapa and then later pressuring Rels.
Null:
HF: Easily could do those stuff from both alignment.
Rels: Need more posts from him to get better read on him.
Slam: Need him to explain his Hapa read a bit more.
Onegu: Only made 2 posts need more posts from him period.
Hapa: Would be my scum in the fight between him and HF didn't like the way he had shut down HF's push on you. But is okay but still questionable


On January 18 2017 02:14 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:13 LightningStrike wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:11 Holyflare wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:10 LightningStrike wrote:
On mobile
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

I liked you plus vivax's case on HF when I caught up and I also noted how I thought hf was a little nitpicky on Damdred -.-


Which I dropped when I completely saw the points hapa made??? Explain why it was nitpicky LS.

You were picking tiny things from during a period that wouldn't make anyone scum.


you think a player that got caught in a lie is picking tiny things? when damdred even admitted himself it made him look bad?


On January 18 2017 02:15 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:14 Bill Murray wrote:
do you have ANY feelings on who you think his partner could be? youve tunneled him pretty hard who is he least interacting with, HF? [on hapa]


ls:

Show nested quote +
On January 17 2017 01:02 Hapahauli wrote:
On January 16 2017 05:39 Damdred wrote:
On January 16 2017 05:25 Hapahauli wrote:
On January 16 2017 05:16 Damdred wrote:
Here is the thing hapa I already have a pretty solid read on me currently. And that he is probably town at this point moving forward.

How did I get here? Why thank you for asking!

You see it starts with me having bad reasons that are correct. LS makes a meta point about my play and how I react to him, ( ie of I legit push him as scum and he flips town im scum as I read him like 100%). Town point.

States things that are clear as day at points even jokes. Town point (really lacks much of this as scum).

And seems to be able to give ok if not lower thought process on current events. So he's just town.

And that went on longer than I wanted


Okay.

Is this a case you would make on other townies, or is there something meta-specific here about LS? How confident is this read, scale of 1 to 10?



It's something meta specific to ls. He's incredibly lazy, isn't really confrontational and lays super low as scum.

He can get past these of his partner is someone he lives and pushed his buttons and rides him hard.

I would give it an 7-8 atm. Probably halfway through the day I can lock in depending. But some nice meta things on ls.


Damdred, update me on this. Right now, I'm seeing the bolded from LS.


never mentioned again


On January 18 2017 02:16 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:14 Rels wrote:
On January 18 2017 02:07 Holyflare wrote:
Also I absolutely hate how nobody is talking about LS. (I guess my fault) BUT he's spent the entirety of the first 24 hours of the game doing nothing but waiting for damdred and then when damdred finally answered it's "oh, okay" and then just leaves again until the wagon on me starts and he has to vote somewhere at which point he states he has no idea how to read me.

Out of the fight of hapa/hf he even said it was hapa most likely mafia and hasn't commented on anything since but now it's the other way around.

I think he always said he didn't like you over Hapa.


I literally linked a post where that's a lie. Please read.


On January 18 2017 02:21 Holyflare wrote:
I will switch to ls just so I can torment hapa some more.


On January 18 2017 02:28 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2017 02:26 LightningStrike wrote:
Lw: Lynch hapa or hf day 2 then lynch Damdred.


king of meta
wants to lynch damdred despite damdred never calling ls town as mafia
???
flips reads to vote whoever whenever??


On January 18 2017 02:29 Holyflare wrote:
Show nested quote +
Damdred: Meta and actions suggest more likely town than scum.


On January 18 2017 02:36 Holyflare wrote:
Vivax why was ls a bad lynch and we're all tools?

Why did you jump right on the hapa train based on one contradiction but when ls had three pointed out in quick succession we're tools for switching?

Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 17 2017 23:55 GMT
#1008
hardly four posts you lying twat head
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 00:18 GMT
#1009
I never asked you why you voted hapa. I KNOW why you voted hapa and it was because of that ONE! contradiction (that's not so much of a contradiction upon reflection). I don't know why it's so hard for you to grasp my question at all.

LS had MULTIPLE REASONS to be lynched and there were MULTIPLE actual contradictions. Yet, when you came to the end of the lynch you didn't even want to acknowledge that LS was a good lynch for those, you called us all tools. It was a feeling directly similar to haunted mansion 3 where you went against the main wagon to be a hipster mafia.

So let me ask you AGAIN AND AGAIN. Why was LS a bad lynch and why were we tools? Why is hapa's one contradiction greater than multiple LS contradictions?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 00:19 GMT
#1010
Although I have a feeling I already know the answer but I want to hear what you say without some kind of extra whine attached. I want clear, concise vivax that has no bs involved.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 00:25 GMT
#1011
On January 18 2017 08:16 Hapahauli wrote:
I'm also pretty sure Vivax is town and I just went off the deep-end post lynch. Will give updates later.


and I am absolutely desperate to hear this
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 00:32 GMT
#1015
On January 18 2017 07:46 Vivax wrote:
The reason is simple. One does not simply go from thinking he has a valid reason to suspect someone, to thinking he is a coinflip cause he stops posting. The other way around works, but not this way.

It's like when people catch me as mafia. If I actually bother I can appear townie early I believe most of the time, but when I fall off even for half a day I'm fucked and maybe I can buy one more day by putting in a binge effort.

But how do you actually manage to believe Damdred is suspicious for something, then make up reasons about thread direction when only HF and me were the other voters besides you in order to unvote him, THEN go on to call him a coinflip cause he stopped posting?

Let's say you're 100 % sure someone is mafia for something HE POSTED, then he says he has some important appointment and disappears. Who in a townie mind would then call it a coinflip?


How do you go thinking this while simultaneously calling me mafia even though I've been talking about hapa's damdred read being bs for 24 hours?
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 02:59 GMT
#1022
On January 18 2017 11:21 Hapahauli wrote:
Vivax is town because the idea that HF and Myself are a mafia team is so absurdly paranoid that mafia would never hold that opinion.

The emotions post-lynch check out very well with a confirmation-biased, tilted townie.

Now that I have an explanation for post-lynch, it makes sense. I hate the play, but I think Vivax legitimately did not understand the possible consequences of switching his vote when he did.


That's not outside his mafia range. I feel like every single read you make is flip flopping so incredibly much based on nothing I'm struggling to comprehend what your actual play is because it's certainly not figuring things out it's just jumping from statement to statement without even questioning if it's possible for that player to do.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 02:59 GMT
#1023
But perhaps that's a towny thing to do I guess.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 02:59 GMT
#1024
Feels artificial somehow though
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 03:18 GMT
#1026
And like I said you're ignoring an individual's mafia range. Vivax isn't a bad player and yes he's tinfoily as town but he's just as easily replicated it as mafia.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30775 Posts
January 18 2017 03:20 GMT
#1027
For instance if we are both town and we were vivax's strategy of winning by lynching us back to back I wouldn't put it past him to be just as annoyed that we suddenly ask him questions instead of jumping all over each other again. It's a reactionary post, sure, but still follows his long term strategy.
Prev 1 8 9 10 11 12 27 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .310
LamboSC2 236
ProTech148
RotterdaM 136
mouzHeroMarine 122
goblin 33
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 6870
EffOrt 851
Mini 824
BeSt 581
Soma 542
Larva 495
Stork 414
actioN 250
Rush 244
Soulkey 239
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 218
hero 162
Dewaltoss 102
Snow 92
Hm[arnc] 81
Hyun 76
Killer 75
Sharp 67
Pusan 62
Sea.KH 58
sSak 36
Backho 28
JulyZerg 18
Shine 15
yabsab 15
Movie 14
SilentControl 14
Terrorterran 12
zelot 4
ivOry 3
eros_byul 1
Dota 2
Gorgc6979
qojqva1894
BananaSlamJamma198
Counter-Strike
byalli449
ceh9402
adren_tv62
kRYSTAL_10
Other Games
hiko767
B2W.Neo732
FrodaN622
Mlord579
ArmadaUGS131
crisheroes129
Beastyqt109
Sick75
Trikslyr44
MindelVK15
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream10120
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2532
Other Games
BasetradeTV704
WardiTV289
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 71
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV535
League of Legends
• Jankos1814
• Nemesis1603
• TFBlade1250
Other Games
• Shiphtur135
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
10m
RotterdaM136
RSL Revival
10h 10m
GSL
16h 10m
Afreeca Starleague
18h 10m
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
19h 10m
RSL Revival
1d 18h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Escore
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
Universe Titan Cup
4 days
Rogue vs Percival
Ladder Legends
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
BSL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
5 days
Ladder Legends
5 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W3
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.