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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 05:28 cakepie wrote: NU. Remember these weird things we both noticed? - TW goes from mylo to a plan for D3 - ExO "unwillingly" tries to make a scumread on TW, but couches it in language that blames me | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
Let's town Ray. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
I popped back out of bed to post something quick and now it's almost 6am. I'm never going to get any sleep if I continue at this rate. I want to "play to win" but I'm not going to do it at the cost of my health, I'm already starting to fall ill from fucking over my sleep schedule massively the first few days. (in b4 appeal to emotion) I'm going to take care of me first When I'm properly rested and if NU is actually willing to listen I'll try give it a shot again. I'm very sorry town. If it comes to it, I accept the blame for throwing this game. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
I'm not at 100% yet. But I'm going give it one last shot and try to do what I can. I fucking refuse to lose this game without putting up a fight. Not after everything I've put into it. On December 11 2016 06:13 NeverUnlucky wrote: It's both jeez. They're saying the fucking same thing. Stop beating around the bush and get to work already. With the benefit of a clearer mind than before. It is not the same, NU. These two posts from you are NOT both "saying the same fucking thing." 1. There IS a generation gap this game. H1, Ray and I have been playing the game one way. You, TW and ExO are playing the game in another way. Your continued refusal to accept the generation gap makes it impossible to get across to you. 2. I originally thought that it was my fault that I wasted all my towncred by fakeclaiming, and continuing to be suboptimal. I blamed myself because I thought that if I still had that towncred, I might be able to get across to you better. So I was also very upset (at myself) when you said that it had nothing to do with me losing towncred with my fake claim. But now I can see that it's mostly not my fault. It goes back to the generation gap. The way I perceived my own play earning towncred is using the standards that H1, Ray and I are playing by. I don't have that kind of towncred with you at all. You're still playing a different game from me, which is the real reason why I'm not getting across to you. It's still my fault for being suboptimal D2 thus far, but that is really a product of my burnout. I'm not a great player, but I gave so much early on. So much so that I overdid it, got fatigued, actually fell sick, and started playing like shit because I just wasn't in the right mental, physical and emotional state to play properly. So I can take some cold comfort that up until I started committing unforced errors, I am, compared to NSM8 cakepie, possibly up for the most fucking improved player award. And in the fact that I was correct. I found scum on my first two reads. At this point you might be thinking, WTF, cakepie is writing a postmortem even the game is over. I am. Because I can see how this game is most likely going to end. And it is really the best argument I have right now. This game is a fantastic study case for the phenomenon where old players pop back in and find that the level of play has really declined. I'm not even that 'old school', and I used to be lousy by the 'old school' standards. But I'm finding my confidence, because I've fucking finally improved. Before I started fucking up, I was right about the state of the game. I need to show NU the ways of the old guard. So I need NU to be open to accepting that we've been two groups of people playing two different games, and let me try to teach him as best as I can in the little time that we have. + Show Spoiler + Seriously, someone -- who is a better and more experienced player than I -- needs to make an updated "how to improve" to teach the newblood about the tricks of the old hands. So, yes, I am going to be writing a postmortem before the game is over. NU, this comes down to how willing you are to learn to improve, and how good a learner you are in the little time we have. Coming up next. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
I'm going to need time to write my post. I'm not great by the old standards yet. But I now have renewed confidence that I have learned some of the important lessons that my coaches of old tried to teach me. I'm not the best teacher for this stuff. But I will try to teach you what I have learnt, NU. If RL permits, stay up late if you have to. I've pulled like 3 or 4 all-nighters already. If you're town, you owe me at least this one. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: cakepie, I really don't see the point of your argument. What difference does it make if there is a generation gap or not in the fact that Ray is scum and TW is cop? Why is your goal trying to convince me that we're playing different games? To claw back the win. Really. On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: But okay, I'll bite. Yes, we seem to play two different games. You apparently play in a world where who is mafia and who is town is determined by how much town credits they've earned (?) and how they have contributed to the game. not quite. Remember. I've been talking about 1. town and scum explanations 2. town and scum motivations 3. good faith -- giving people a fair shake On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: While I live by the philosophy that one single action/post can make someone undoubtedly scum. No. Don't do that. On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: Your 'generation' has a fetish for posting walls of text That's just me doing it poorly. On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: hunting for logic while 'mine' prefers shorter posts and back and forth discussion. This method favors reading players emotionally. I'm not going to discount emotion reads outright. But you're right, part about it is about using logic. Emotion reads are fine, but they feed into the pointers I put above. Then, using logic, piece all the possible scenarios together and see what is the most plausible narrative. "Narrative" is another word that you guys trigger on and don't understand. The tl;dr is: in a mafia game, a lot of the evidence is going to be subjective but many small pieces of circumstantial evidence can come together into a whole that is greater than the parts. for every post, every read, every mistake, you must consider both sides of the coin. 1 & 2 above. 3. is being willing to listen, and admit when you're wrong. (This is why I super TR Ray) And then, consider every permutation of both sides of the coin for every little bit of evidence. THEN you apply occam's razor and find the most plausible narrative or scenario. NOT see one thing. apply occam's razor immediately. finish. which is how you're operating. On December 11 2016 13:11 NeverUnlucky wrote: Can you tell me where you are going with this? I want to teach you so we can maybe win the game. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
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cakepie
985 Posts
I was going to make a tutorial under the assumption you're not around. But you're here. we're already discussing. How well are you following #465? | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:24 NeverUnlucky wrote: it's been 10 minutes since I made 463 and you still haven't responded. If I were to stay late at night, I'd want it to be a discussion, not a wall of text exchange 465 responds to 463. if this is a discussion, I need to know what you think of it before I move on to talking about H1's death. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
But if you're willing to listen in good faith -- that's the first lesson you need to learn -- then I have some hope of clawing back the win. It's not likely, but I'm playing to my wincon here and refusing to continue letting my team down like I've been doing the whole of early D2. This is all wifom to you, of course. Do you truly have an open heart and a willingness to learn? | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:32 NeverUnlucky wrote: I see how you guys read, but don't know why you'd be giving everyone such a big margin of error when mafia are obviously going to try and make as few mistakes as possible. But they're going to make mistakes. You need to be able to identify them. I've done a bang splendid job of it. You have the beginnings of being able to do it. If you just stop playing using only emotion and happily accepting that all mistakes are honest town mistakes. On December 11 2016 13:32 NeverUnlucky wrote: I don't really want a tutorial. This is a conversation now. On December 11 2016 13:32 NeverUnlucky wrote: I'm more interested in knowing why Ray is town and TW is scum. I can show you using the pointers in #465 and then analysis of early D2 reaction to H1's flip. Also, looks like I can teach you about telling between scum mistakes and town mistakes. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:38 cakepie wrote: Also, looks like I can teach you about telling between scum mistakes and town mistakes. Earlier D2 I keep bringing up those two things that we both found weird from TW+ExO respectively. You keep swatting it away (iirc "twice in one hour") But you've found scumslips. You just didn't know it yet. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
Basically, the idea behind it is to throw out all the things that we see that are possibly some kind of read. Whether it be based on emotion, logic, mistakes, inconsistencies, etc. The reads may be good or bad. That's fine. They are: 1. Basis for discussion and refinement. - evaluate everything - toss out crap - correct faulty reads - share interpretations that others missed 2. It's a reaction check: 2a - people who resonate with me on weird things I caught are probably town like me, and it also reinforces the read. (This is why I TR you NU. Coming from the same VT pov, we gut check the same things to be weird.) 2b - people who try to consider both sides of the coin for each component of the case are town. 2cii - targets who only crush the weak reasons and don't/can't address the strong ones are scum (TW) 2cii - for other people, crushing the weak reasons is null UNLESS proxy defense in association read. (ExO) 2d - people with strange reactions are earmarked for attention (ExO saying TW didn't buddy you -- and not explaining it) 2e - if the target addresses a strong part of the read by showing me a good alternative town explanation or town motivation, I can evaluate that explanation on good faith. Then the whole both sides of the coin for each argument, form a plausible narrative, occam's razor stuff. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:45 NeverUnlucky wrote: By "I don't really want a tutorial" I meant I don't want you to teach me how to play. I find this to be very arrogant if you're town and manipulative if you're scum. Keep it to your POV: why in your pov is x scum/town? Do show me why his flip points to TW and ExO. Fuck you, you can go ahead and hammer now. Don't waste my time. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 13:52 cakepie wrote: Keep it to your POV: why in your pov is x scum/town? Okay. I will try to show you how I apply 465+475+481 to solve everything. But you're not really as receptive as you need to be. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
I triggered really hard that you called me arrogant. Because I've clearly expressed that I'm not the best player or best teacher for showing the ropes to you. I know it might come across as me preaching to you but I'm really not coming at you from a high and mighty position here. We've both been bad this game. It's just that I'm a bad but improving player trying to help fellow town improve. Because we might just be able to win this. I do appreciate that you realized you were straying into toxicity and held back. And I think that we both got too caught up in the heat of the moment here. For you to go to bed and come back later hopefully with a fresh mind is actually good for us here. It also gives me time to write. Cuz holy shit I take a long time to write stuff. People call me out for being scum being overcautious, but it's really a NAI trait for me. So me having time and you not being impatient is better for us. I'm going to take a break (lunch etc) before coming back to post the things I promised, when I'm less angry at you. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 16:07 Tumblewood wrote: shit why do I have to convince that you ray is maf. he should've already done that for you by not posting for 20 hours in remembrance: Thanks dude, I could use that. Also thanks for collecting the interactions between me and Ray. You've been unwittingly so helpful -- I don't have to filter so hard now since you're passing me the things I need as I go. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On December 11 2016 16:32 Tumblewood wrote: yeah because he's your fucking teammate You know it's true. | ||
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