EPT[M][N] Presidential Election Mini Mafia
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I am unfortunately not going to be able to contribute heavily today. I will do my best to get a chance to read the game and I will probably focus on the first few hours of posting. I am more just popping by to let you guys know I am alive and have no intention of getting replaced or modkilled, despite the fact that my start will be slower than I would have preferred. To me I have two acceptable outcomes this cycle. The preferred outcome is that I actually find something that's worth chasing and put my vote there, but a very reasonable alternative that is probably more likely to happen is that I find someone I strongly believe to be town, and lend my vote to whatever his or hers cause is. I'm looking forward to talking to you all and playing with you. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Skynx called out Artanis in a way that I liked. Artanis' response wasn't great. Damdred said at least one thing that closely resembles the way a human being talks. GlowingBear's entry post was worse than most other people's. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 07:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Absolutely 100% confirmed town Chezinu Town Damdred Skynx Tumblewood Quicktwist Townish Subparbia -power gap- Emperorarechampion Null GlowingBear Jealous MoosyDoosy Mildly leaning mafia Jean Valjean Lean mafia Ticktock Please explain why I am mafia Artanis. You seem to think that my posts somehow lead you to conclude I am mafia. If you're not full of shit you must have a reason for that. I'll await your swift response. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
That's just an objective statement. I have said very little and acknowledged that my contributions would be lacking today. If you want to call me mafia you have to explain why what little I have said is no useful. I am almost certain you are mafia by now. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:28 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So I'm mafia for applying a reason you called Damdred mafia for onto you? Must mean you're like 110% mafia then, especially since you didn't explain it for Damdred yourself. First of all, I wasn't talking about Damdred, I was talking about Superbia, a player that generally can be fairly helpful. In addition, he has posted three pages of content, something that I clearly haven't done, so the direction of his posts has become clear, while I would argue the direction of my posts is not yet clear. It is unreasonable to call someone mafia for not posting helpful things when he has posted 3 posts in general. If you want to call me mafia for being inactive that's fine, if you think I'm actively lurking and avoiding posting, that's fine too. I just think the rationale you just gave is both unreasonable and opportunistic. I don't believe you think your own reasoning is valid, and that means you must be mafia. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had already forgotten you were talking about Superbia and Damdred because that's how little of an impression it left. I just wanted to rile you up a bit as you were riling up others without doing anything yourself. There is actually a reason I think you're mildly scummy though, and that's in that your 'observations' feel completely useless and I think you're just trying to appear useful with it rather than actually focussing on reading the full game before saying, for one, that Superbia's posts haven't been helpful. I don't understand why you wouldn't just read the entire game, especially one as short as this, before commenting. I don't believe the bolded. I have no reason to think you actually had some sort of a plan of "riling me up". You don't know anything about me or my personality, and this all sounds like you're retconning your own story to fit some narrative. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:42 Tumblewood wrote: jean feels a little too obvious to be scum like he has all the tells kinda but it just doesn't feel right not sure how to phrase it "all the tells" implies that there are some objective things I've done that you can name of the top off your head that you consider to generally be scummy. Please elaborate on at least three such tells. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:40 emperorchampion wrote: brb catching up I had a look at your filter. The bad is more important than the good. None of your posts are actually very helpful in figuring the game out. This is mostly just a gameplay observation, and not really relevant to what I think of your alignment. I would advise you to actually post some kind of useful observations or engaging in a conversation that might push the game forward. On the other hand, there exists at least one reason to think you're town, but I don't really want to talk about it yet. I'll explain this reason later (probably no later than n1). | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I dunno. My read from the list post hasn't really changed significantly. That is surprising. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 08:49 Tumblewood wrote: I elaborate what I want. first let me give you some backstory. before I played my first game I scoured the mafiascum wiki looking for tutorials on how to read people and the like. what I quickly realized playing on TL is that the tells were all shit because anyone who actually fit the scum tells were idiots and there are no idiots on TL. what I mean when I say "all the tells" is that you fit the 7-year-old-mafiascum-article scum archetype, but in my experience that archetype doesn't exist (a la "too obvious") so I'm hesitant to read you scum. feel free to prove me wrong though. Of course you elaborate what you want, that's why I asked nicely, notice the "Please". Again, you say I fit some "7-year-old-mafiascum-article scum archetype". What is it, specifically, in my play that fits that archetype? It is already established that I am a smurf, but that might of course mean I'm literally the worst player in the history of TL Mafia, and thus that archetype might actually be something you should investigate about me. So, you should be chasing this, even if it would end up being a red herring. I'd ask you to again explain why you think that, on a very basic level, I look like scum. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 00:36 QuickTwist wrote: Fake quote is fake. I don't see a good Town reason to do this. On June 26 2016 03:21 QuickTwist wrote: Its my mistake (well, TL's really). The post says it was made 19 hours ago on June 25th. Unfortunately I thought that was impossible since the timestamp says 8:00. So I went back to 8:00 AM and could not for the life of me find the quote. That would have been 5 hours ago my time at 8:00 AM. In short, the timestamps don't work like they should at this site. Will go back a check to make sure I am on the right forum time. These posts, or rather the thought progression that led to them should basically exclude Quickdraw from any lynch considerations for today. While it is of course possible he is being smart mafia and focusing on irrelevant details on purpose, the fact that he actually bothered to check the timestamps means he is at least trying to think about the game in a way that allows him to contribute to solving it. This means I would not want to lynch him today at least, and makes him one of my stronger townreads, for whatever that may be worth on day 1. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I strongly disagree with you on Artanis. Why do you think he's town? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 18:27 Superbia wrote: Do you still think I am mafia? It is very possible. You're both a very good mafia player and I have expectations of you being useful as town. This means that I'm not willing to call you town until you put in the effort to actually prove you're town. I'm not too worried about it at the moment though, it seems to me I have both stronger scumreads and townreads than you and I can afford to withhold judgement for a while. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 18:27 Superbia wrote: Also why do you think artanis is mafia? Because I have trouble believing that Artanis' approach to just about anything this game is even half genuine. In the initial stages he was joking around, but uncharacteristically he wasn't really funny at all. He is a funny guy so it is actually suspicious when he tries to be funny but is only marginally funny. This might mean that he was making jokes not because he felt like making jokes, but rather because he thought it would be a good idea to make jokes for other reasons. Secondly I liked Skynx's case on Artanis, and I did not like Artanis' response to it. Skynx doesn't prove Artanis is mafia with that case, but he does bring up some justifiable points about Artanis' approach to the game. Most notably the stiffness in his transition from joking to what was a fairly weak attack on QT. Artanis responded by dismissing the case and throwing a townread Skynx's way, I do not disagree with the sentiment that Skynx looks a lot better for casing Artanis, but the dismissal of the case was done in a way I don't believe a veteran player would dismiss a case. Artanis should have explained why the things he did don't make him mafia, instead of just semi-ridiculing the case. Ridiculing accusations is a sign of weakness. Thirdly, he called me out for doing little. As I have already explained, I had no real problem with him throwing a scumread my way, but he did it for the wrong reason. Then afterwards he claimed he had done it to "rile me up" while then also claiming his initial reason was valid. I don't believe Artanis genuinely thinks that he was riling me up. When he made an off-hand comment on me and threw me on a list he was barely targeting me at all and had no idea I would actually respond to him, given my lack of contributions at that point in the game. I think it's much more likely he saw an easy opportunity to sort of call someone out that would possibly not bother to really respond to him, giving him an easy and uncontroversial scumlean. Lastly, Artanis has thrown around townreads with way too much confidence this game. Chezinu, Damdred, Skynx, QT all got pretty hard townreads from him for relatively flimsy reasons. I just have a hard time believing he is actually working through the scenarios to reach a conclusion, feels like he is just throwing something out there and running with it. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
This leaves your entire pool of mafia as GB, TT, Emperor, Jealous and moosy. Mostly inactive and background players + your favorite tunnel. Moosy is deliberately playing scummy so there's that. Like there is no way I believe you'd so strongly narrow the pool for scum to something so small. I just don't know. I cannot believe this is actually how you think because it's awful. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Neither of these are true. Also, even hard townreads can drop off. It's just unlikely. Wait, you still think there's a chance I'm mafia? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I've never seen you truly try as mafia, Slam. I've seen you truly try as town and you've had incredible games there. I don't see why not hard townreading you would be proving I'm scum, that's a very loaded statement. You don't know whether or not my alternate identity is Slam. Applying some meta that might be completely wrong is dumb. The sentence is loaded because it should be. The way I've approached pressuring you is not something many players on this site are capable of doing as mafia. To think I'm mafia, one or two things kinda have to be true. 1) you must think I am excellent at playing scum 2) you must not have noticed the kind of pressure being put on you is not something normal or off-hand The simple conclusion to my alignment, assuming I'm not some scum-god, is that I must be town because there's almost no one capable of doing what I have been doing as mafia. So yes, the statement is loaded, because it is intended to be. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: It's not that hard to kick a puppy that's already being kicked by a few others. Plus, knowing I'm town means I know you're tunneling on town, which has plenty of mafia reasoning behind it. The fact that you're trying so hard to use it as leverage to get townread also diminishes its worth as clearly you're very aware of what you're doing. I am perfectly aware of what I am doing Artanis, I am very smart. I am also perceptive enough to undestand why what you're doing right now is not logical. For example, when Skynx pushed you with weaker and less coherent reasons, and put less force behind the push than I am doing now, you simply wrote him off as town for the very fact that he wrote a case on you. For some reason I'm not getting the same treatment. If anything, my points are better thought out and more valid than Skynx', so why am I not getting the same treatment? Objectively, I have, in this conversation and the previous one, put you on the defense. How many scum players on TL can put you on defense when you're town? I understand other players do not have to townread me, they're not you. But you, specifically, should really be changing your mind about my alignment right now. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I am announcing a late candidacy to become Monsieur le maire. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Sd9eI0P.png) I know I have not had the time to contribute as much as I'd like over this cycle, but that will change during the next one. More importantly, what I contribute tends to be very clear, focused, and easy to read. I do not engage in frivolous exchanges about irrelevant points, making my filter very clear to read. I bring experience, leadership and directness to the office. My platform consists of three general ideas. Accountability: I do not intend to let anyone get away with half-assed or unexplained reads. When someone makes a statement without explaining it or backing it up in any way, I will be there to push him on it. I will make sure people don't get to slide away with inane statements, forcing them to actually explain what they mean. Transparency: I write precise, constructed posts that are a pleasure to read, my words are stimulating and entertaining, wise and thoughtful, concise and powerful. I post sparingly making my own filter much easier to read for you the citizens. You will always have all the information needed to make a judgement on my alignment. Organization: I am, by nature, a planner. I am willing to help set up ideas in a way that makes town more likely to be successful. I will help identify targets, create factions and force people to take stances. I will help eliminate options that seem unlikely and thus help create a more constructed game, something TL Mafia desperately needs. Lastly, I want to point out that should I fail to win the election, and instead be relegated to the role of Pardoner, I will never use that role. If I am unable to convince town that a lynch is bad using my personal charm and charisma, I will not resort to using a role. If I am Pardoner, I should be automatically killed for ever using that role. In conclusion, I think I am qualified to take on the role of mayor. I think it's also fitting thematically with my name, so that's a bonus. I will continue to help town move forward in a way that will benefit the public, the citizens, and not the mafia. I will fight for you! | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Because Skynx is a newbie and you're, as you put it, very smart, and probably have a lot of experience in playing mafia. I use different bars for different players. I do like that I managed to put you in a corner where your options were a) call me awesome b) call yourself mafia Anyway, I think I'll leave you for now, but that doesn't mean you're out of danger. You are currently the lynch target for my mayoral campaign, and will remain so. There's two reasons I'm not going to bother with you for a while, the first one is that I need to read up on other players to better flesh out my platform and vision for this game, and secondly it's just mean to run up the score when you're so thoroughly trouncing your opponent. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:42 Superbia wrote: TT/Jean/Art, do any of you feel different about each other? TT/Jean, how do you feel about the other? I have not read up on TT, it's one of the things I have planned for further analysis. I remain highly suspicious of Artanis, and almost everything he does is just adding to it. The latest problem I have is how easily he's letting me wipe the floor with him on the debate stage, he is one of the stronger players on TL Mafia and he doesn't stand a chance. I think it's healthy for me to take a step back from him for a while and come back with a clear head to make sure I'm not just confirmation biasing myself into his lynch, but I think my feelings on him are very clearly explained in my recent posts. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I will probably spite lynch you if you keep this up btw. Your ego's choking out the game. "The zebra bravely announces he'll eat the lion". Good luck Artanis. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 19:42 Superbia wrote: TT/Jean/Art, do any of you feel different about each other? TT/Jean, how do you feel about the other? An initial quick read of his filter (without looking into posts for context) suggests that tonally he sounds like a townie. I like his lightly explained, yet reasonable attacks on Damdred and Artanis. I would like Ticktock to actually contribute in a longer form because I know he is a very capable scumhunter. His further insight might both help us reveal information about the game, and about his own alignment. Very tentatively I'll say that I think he's town for now. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 20:04 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I think the wagon was started by town and there's probably one or two scum on there. I'm mildly leaning town on Jean. Still lynching him. This begs two questions. 1) Who is on the wagon? 2) Who is the townie who started the wagon? And those two should really help us figure out the game from your perspective. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Skynx: (Strongly Leaning Town) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806208 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807441 QT: (Strongly Leaning Town) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806666 Ticktock: (Leaning Town) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807806 Emperor: (Null, At least one reason to townlean) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806640 Tumblewood: (True Null) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806659 Damdred: (Null, At least one reason to townlean) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806208 Superbia: (Null, at least one reason to scumlean) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806257 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807405 Artanis: (Strongly Leaning Scum) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25806614 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807441 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807474 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807584 | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 20:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Started by Tumble. Joined by QT, GB, [long gap] TT, Skynx, you is what I can gather. MD's also been mildly flailing some suspicion but I have no idea if he actually scumread me or not. Tumble's kinda come around on me, think he's leaning town on me atm. I think TT is likely scum, GB kinda null maybe edging towards scummy by PoE and lack of caring (he has issues being active as scum), and you're leaning town. The others I'm town on. Elaborate as much on GB as you can please. That would be supremely helpful. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
That means I just have a few more filters to go through before the end of the day. I very much think GB is someone that needs to be looked into, and then there's Jelaous who I don't even remember posting at all. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Hence, your primary category is "Null". If you would like for me to change my read on you, start finding mafia and you shall be swiftly rewarded. Go through someone's filter, build a case. You're not pushing anyone, you're not doing anything decisive. Even if I'm completely wrong on Artanis, I'm building a case, presenting evidence and pushing things forward in a way that will help the game. You're at best on the sidelines asking marginally relevant questions and providing uninteresting oneliners about people's alignment I barely even know who you think is mafia or who you want to lynch, yet you're a candidate for the mayoral office? How do you expect to win votes like that? Convince me on something, hell convince me Artanis is town, and I'll gladly throw my vote behind you. But as of now you deserve very little. You have 5 pages of filter and I can't even remember you calling anyone strongly mafia. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 20:24 Superbia wrote: 2nd person to say he's fine with ignoring moosy. Cool. And then you ping out jealous. Right after you say you want to go after people who are actually playing the game. I do not know Jealous, I do not know if he is compulsively useless every game. I do know that about Chez and Moosy. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I am justice, not spite. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 20:28 Superbia wrote: By the way you talked about me suggests that you know my meta. Tell me, is any of what you have said reminiscent of how I play town? x; I do not care how you play town. I care about how I want you to play town and how I know you're capable of playing town. I want you to summarize, be decisive and push not because I think that's your town meta, but because I think that is the best way you can be useful to the game if you are indeed town. There's very few things I care less about than your own sense of "my town meta". | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 20:33 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I could also make statements such as "I've clearly put in a tonne of effort and thought into the game which means you have to townread me or claim scum", but it's just.. dickish. It really is. No it's not, because it's accurate. The statement is made to push an agenda. It's based on a fleshed out idea of how good you are at the game and how I assume you would respond to certain points and ideas. It's also designed to put you in an uncomfortable situation with very few outs, not because I am a dick, but because I am actively investigating your alignment. Yes, if I think you're mafia I will push you around. That is a quality in me you should embrace, not bemoan, but I guess I also harder to appreciate when you're the butt of the joke. The reason you can't make the same statement back at me is because you cannot back it up. You do not have any kind of a case against me, and thus it would make no sense. I forgive you Artanis, I think you're a good person, I just think you're mafia. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 21:19 Superbia wrote: Can I conclude from this is that you think I'm town? I'm basically asking you "how are you evaluating my alignment?" and you're answering with "this is how I want you to play". That is because I cannot accurately evaluate your alignment until you've provided me with material to work with. No I not think you're town, but I'm also not sold on you being mafia. If your contributions remain to just not do anything and not commit to figuring out the game, then I will be forced to make the call based on more vague evidence. So yes, currently i'm judging some kind of a vague idea of how smart, sophisticated and analytical I think you can be against what is the reality this game. It's less about tone or meta, and more about just the very content of your posts, and the thought process behind them. Currently I see a player I consider smart and definitely capable of being useful wasting that talent and making no conclusions from it. If that is all I get from you, so be it. If I am wrong because you simply wanted to keep intact some bullshit meta, then so be it too. See, I know the TL meta lets people get away with being lazy, useless and bad. But I'm not here to adhere to anyone else's meta, I'm building my own. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
In addition, I'd like for some of the more obvious supporters of my campaign, like stynx, QT and Tictock to start endorsing the campaign. As for the person I will lynch, it is most likely going to be Artanis. I will re-read him before making a final decision, but I am fairly confident he's going to flip mafia. The alternatives are essentally lynching into the afk people or trolls (chez, moosy, GB and Jealous) There is absolutely mafia in that group but I do not know which ones. I am also awaiting some colored Chez lists, those will be a great help in understanding his motivations this game. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Also you, just like Artanis, have put yourself in a situation where you just townread everyone except for a few afk players. As with Artanis, you are another player that has no excuse to scumread me at present, so I'll do you the favor of adding myself to your townlist. This means you're townreading the following people: Artanis Damdred Chez Tumble Superbia Jean QT In addition, you townread GB and I'm going to throw in Skynx as an unlikely mafia, although feel free to disagree with me on that. That's 9/13 players already in your town circle, and your lynch list looks something like this: Moosy Jealous Tictock emperorchampion So, trolls, new players, low content people and sure, tictock. Maybe add Skynx to that list? Look over your own reads again and think, do you believe this is the most reasonable solution to the game Damdred? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 26 2016 23:59 Damdred wrote: I explained it a little bit previously, if it was just activity I would probably give him another day. Its mainly that one post describing the qt v art fight as town v town. Its his only contribution and it doesn't make sense to me coming from his position of not knowing art. And honestly art came off a little worse than qt in that exchange. So not sure why he would think that it just feels like Tmi to me. I actually kind of agree, he was specifically asked that and conjured up an answer that was surprisingly thought out given the fact that everything else in his filter has basically been him excusing himself from playing. Not necessarily the TMI part, but rather just the appearance of it. Maybe the trick just to ask him... Hey Jealous, what do you think of my spat with Artanis? And explain your thoughts on Tictock. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807942 No one in the game has better documented their reads than have I. This post by you is very strange GB. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 27 2016 00:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I think he's likely town and if he is, mafia will likely want to kill him. This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words, but I'm also perceptive enough to understand my potential weakness. I would love if you could play around the tunneling part. The one thing I can ask of you is that you clearly indicate your number one scumread (ticktock, I suppose?) and that you build a good, readable case on him that can be reposted and referenced easily farther down the line in the game. The best case scenario is that your case proves you're not mafia and you avoid the lynch, but a close alternative is that even if myself, and a number of other players you think are town, are completely wrong on you and you flip town, you have left something that we can use in the following days to right the ship. No matter if you get lynched you still have a responsibility to try to win the game for your faction, and if your faction is town, you should work on creating a case that town can get behind, either today, or the following days after you're gone. My weakness is that I am not always right, I can be wrong, and it can be very difficult to be wrong for such a strong leader as myself, so I need other players to keep me in check. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I'm willing to support other people than myself for the mayoral position, but you're not one of them. You have been excruciatingly opaque with your reads this game and I think it's very important the mayor is someone who is transparent. I strongly oppose your bid to become the mayor. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 27 2016 02:04 Tumblewood wrote: ok holy shit tt is scum. - scumreading art for changing his read too fast. pls that's town if anything. - stupid misattribution of art's push - narrative - narrative - more narrative impressively manages to dismiss art's read entirely without a real counter, just "you don't know me." basically I don't see why tt would make these cases as town... they're so far-fetched and only really make sense as a justification rather than a reason. This is actually not a bad summary. I will revisit my own interpretation of Ticktock, until then he should know that he is on notice to be lynched if his posting doesn't improve greatly in the next few hours. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
The reason I am responding to this post in detail is that I believe it is good form to respond to people who actually put thought into the way they play the game. I'm hoping to win Jealous over as an ally in the coming days. On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: I was already typing this out as I was working through the thread, so I will use this as an answer: Having read the past few pages that were largely Jean Vanjean pushing Artanis, playing petty games and platforming for presidency, I have to say that he has left a foul taste in my mouth. While I respect his use of language and mild tone, I have to say that he is trying too hard to push the notion that he is "smart" and that therefore the best choice for mayor. Scum can be smart too, and I think a smart scum would follow along the same lines that Jean is doing: You are entirely correct. The point is, anyone running for presidency is going to need to make an impression on town. I decided that because I had more time than expected today, I would push for the spot (also, the other options mostly sucked). If I do not push the idea that I'm a strong candidate, there is no chance for me to succeed. I have no meta, no name recognition, nothing to go on except what I say and do this game. I needed, more than anyone else, to push myself ahead of the group. The important part, and the part you must not miss, is that all this is true whatever my alignment is. Some people have overestimated me being town on this basis, and you seem to overestimate me being scum. The important part is you cannot find my alignment just based on this, you need to actually look at my reads and my insights, rather than my words and my platform, to deduce my alignment. On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: 1. Lay relatively low at first and not draw much suspicion in either direction while the thread is in a tumultuous Day 1 state, Artanis fighting QT, lots of speculation going in every direction, etc. Yes, but again, so would someone who is simply afk as town. I had real life obligations yesterday and was unable to participate much. I have had more time than expected today, which has been great. On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: 2. a. Push a target that is already under pressure/suspicion from others using vague meta reads (paraphrasing what Artanis said, "If I had a dollar for every time someone scumread me for playing worse than they expect me to,"). b. Play word/mind games (and perhaps a little bit of fear tactics) to force that target to say things that Jean wants said from another mouth, giving him added external validity. "This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words." - Jean c. Essentially bullying him into voting for him as president. Yes, I'm good at arguing and I can push my ideas heavily when needed. But it is extremely difficult to do what I'm doing as mafia. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just very difficult and I don't think many scum players are capable of doing it. Also, the reason I tend to attack people based on some expectation of their play, is that it's a cleverly aggressive way to point out something they did wrong. If I put a person in a position with limited options, for example when I say Artanis is good enough to townread me and if he doesn't he must be mafia, it is more likely the person screws up. It's simply an interrogation tactic. Artanis might still be mafia but I feel far less certain than before. I'm not a huge fan of him giving up because I know Artanis is a generally jolly and relaxed, but I guess it doesn't necessarily make him mafia. His mafia game is more trolly than resigned, and there is a very real chance his frustration with being pushed is actually real. I don't know right now and I'm sort of waffling on lynching Artanis. On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: 3. Build a stronger platform for a presidential candidacy than any that has been posted so far, using big words and nice formatting to please the eye and make the reader complacently agree with the validity of his statements, in what could be considered a "last push" because of the timing (12 hours before EoD as opposed to any time prior). I simply do that for readability and transparency. I think, if anything, the conciseness of my posts should indicate that at least if I'm mafia, I'm not using the tactic of shitting up the thread with useless posts. On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: I find the fact that he has garnered a fair share of support and relatively little suspicion to be very alarming. Is everyone going for the textbook "he is active and pushing someone, so can't be scum?" I believe that can backfire terribly in a game such as this where that modus operandi would be an effective strategy for Mafia to get into a position of power and make the game much harder for Town to win. There have been four people whose names have been tossed around/who have been voted for/have pushed for presidency, from what I've read so far (I still have to go back to the early pages). In most recent pages, GlowingBear has been making some weak pushes for it, going by the logic of "Why SHOULDN'T I be President?" as opposed to "Here is why I SHOULD be President," which I don't like either. In short, I think that between those people (Superbia, Jean, GB, and one other person I am forgetting at the moment) there must be a scum. It is THE play of the game in this format, and for scum to sit back and allow Town to freely elect Town for both positions would be simply poor play. I find that to be less likely than scum being one of the power candidates right now. I have support because I am far better than all the alternatives. No, I am not a player you can simply look at and your eyes are filled with a neon-green light. Due to the fact that I'm articulate, people tend to assume I am capable of better scumplay than I really am. But in general the simple solutions tend to be good, which is why in most people's mind, the simple solution that I'm trying in an extremely townie way, is that I'm town. I'm not saying you should not watch out for tryhard scum, it's just that you should also not forget what is most likely in a given situation. I agree scum should not let town grab the power positions, but experience has taught me that for the most part, scum is extremely bad at pushing for these positions. I think it happens very rarely that mafia actually gets their candidate voted into power, it's just too much effort and very difficult to do. | ||
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On June 27 2016 02:49 MoosyDoosy wrote: I'm getting away with it! And you said you'd leave me alone which means you're letting me get away with it! It's not night yet. Don't assume you'll wake up after the night. | ||
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On June 27 2016 02:49 MoosyDoosy wrote: superbia if you promise to kill me if you're mayor i will vote for you This trolling is over the top. There exists no explanation as town for this behavior from Moosy, there is no situation where his current tactics are advantageous. There does exist a situation where his behavior makes sense as mafia. He might be going for an approach and hoping people will label him "too scummy to be scum". So the options are two: a) He is actually mafia, and his tactic is to be too scummy to be scum b) He is town and actively playing against his win condition The problem is, he is sufficiently bad/selfish for b) to be an option. That being said, Moosy, with the continuation of his worthless trolling is now my current lynch candidate on Day 1. At worst we kill a player who is actively trying to win the game for mafia, at best, we kill mafia. MoosyDoosy is now my preferred lynch target | ||
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As just a random thought, apparently Jealous isn't aware that GlowingBear claimed a blue role. This doesn't mean much, but it means it's slightly less likely they're both mafia, and it's a weird thing to miss if you're mafia. But who knows. I'm not lynching Jealous any time soon anyway, I think. As much as I hate having to do it, I'm lynching Moosy if I become the mayor. I have no reason to think he flips mafia except the one I gave earlier about how he should be one based on logic. The problem is Moosy is a very selfish person and completely willing to ruin the fun of 13 people just so he can have his own fun. He doesn't try to win games as town, he is more interested in entertaining himself. We need to lynch him. It's not a great lynch, it's not one that's particularly likely to get us mafia. I hope he gets banned after literally playing against his win condition this game. So that's where I am at. | ||
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I don't particularly think GlowingBear is very towny. I feel like his early game was lackluster, and now as a claimed blue his play lacks a certain... aggressiveness (meaning, I'm surprised he's not yelling in all caps at the top of his lungs at people for being stupid enough to actually make him earn the mayor title when he's a claimed blue). He is very measured, says little, and seems to not be very passionate, when most people would be getting pretty annoyed at having to compete with some random smurf for the mayor title. I'm not lynching him, or anything like that, I just want the notion out there. I am very disappointed in myself to make moosy my primary lynch, it is not a good lynch and it is basically a fear lynch. But I don't think I can allow that question to remain in the game. | ||
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On June 27 2016 05:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I don't want emperor to get lynched I don't think. Pretty sure he's one of the first to cast doubt on Jean and I have a hard time seeing newbie scum do that. This is a valid point, although his casting doubt on me was never followed up on, nor was it particularly well aimed. But yes, I had the same thought earlier. | ||
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On June 27 2016 05:54 Damdred wrote: Lynch Tt Jean blah No, if I'm lynching scum instead of baddies, I'll be killing superbia I think | ||
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On June 27 2016 05:58 Superbia wrote: Literally -> I think moosy is scum. I have been pushing on moosy beginning of d1 -> I think super is scum. This is the guy you all want as pres. I think you're mafia. I don't think moosy is mafia. | ||
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On June 27 2016 05:58 Superbia wrote: Then lynch me and agree to get lynched tomorrow. I fucking dare you. That's completely retarded bro. Do you think I'm mafia? | ||
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1) It means I don't have to hate Moosy as much. While his strategy was bad, at least he had a strategy. It wasn't completely retarded, because many people would be tempted to not kill according to policy/organization and instead fall back on emotion. I and many others thought that Moosy was quite possibly town despite logically his play only making sense from a mafia perspective. 2) Organized play paid off. Doing the objectively right thing paid off. I hate it when you get punished for killing people who should be killed because they decided to be funny as town and troll. I did the objectively and mechanically right thing without worrying too much about some gut feelings and it worked. It's a victory for correct play on TL Mafia. 3) Got'em boys | ||
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On June 27 2016 17:22 Superbia wrote: The reality is that if Jean genuinely considered lynching me there then the game was on the edge of being lost for no real reason and it's a good part of the reason why I did not want him to be in any position of power (personally I also despise(d) his playing style and the fact that it paid off). I love the doom and gloom predictions. "We are literally on the verge of losing the game because the town hero briefly considered lynching me before promptly lynching mafia!!!" Get a grip son. You have plenty of time to convince people you're not mafia. I have repeatedly explained what you should be doing, and now that I'm in a position to enforce my threats I suggest you start paying attention. I have an idea on what is the best way for town to play mafia. I'm only interested in winning the game. I'm not interested in people sticking to their meta or claiming "this is just how I play". Those are not valid arguments. You play how the town wants you to play, because that is the only way you play to win. I have managed to bring town to my cause and I'm sure most people agree that my way is genuinely helping this town get organized and strong. I do not think you're an asshole superbia, I have no faith that you'll allow yourself to be lynched to "stick it to the man" if you're town. So I double down on my fairly reasonable request that you stop being a stubborn asshole and genuinely lay out your cases on the people you think are mafia. Write a single post, include the quotes and links you think are needed to validate your case and let the rest of us objectively judge your contributions. I'm a very reasonable person and I change my mind based on evidence. Notice that I didn't end up killing my early tunnel of Artanis, because I no longer felt it was the best lynch possible. I have no ulterior motive other than winning this game for town, and sometimes I need to whip town into shape to get things done. In other TL Mafia towns, spamming oneliners, taking no responsibility and playing to some awful "meta" is acceptable. In my town, we're not doing that, and we're going to reward this town with a win. A goddamn win. | ||
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On June 27 2016 17:46 Superbia wrote: That he literally bullied you into voting him. His two scum reads were you and me (iirc). And I was generally townread at the time he came around. I'm just very annoyed that people voted him even though his (scum) reads were (probably) actually pretty shit. Especially you. He hard scumread you and he had a null/scumlean on me. And I was one of the only persons who was not going with the scumArtanis flow. It boggles my mind man. Anyway I will reveal what I think on the morrow but tbh I don't expect it to make it. :D This is a terrible way to think about things. No one knew at the time which reads were good or bad. What I did was simply to present to town a willingness to figure things out and a lay out a framework within which I would work, and people like that. People like transparency and organization. I wasn't voted because people thought I was the most right. I was voted because people trusted I would got to the greatest lengths to do the right thing, to get things done. In the end, both my approach to the vote and my approach to scumhunting through iteration paid off handsomely. I got the presidency and I lynched mafia. Not a bad day 1! Mafia isn't about being right, it's about convincing other people you're right. | ||
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On June 27 2016 18:32 Superbia wrote: A lynch on me would be the dumbest shit ever. But we can discuss this until the end of times. You lynched my mafia instead. Good shit and good call. We can talk about mafia meta all day but ultimately it's irrelevant. The fact is that I find mafia as town, regardless of how lazy I am. As a result, I have no reason to change my gameplay until I start being very wrong. The hallmark of a terrible player is to think you only have one job as town when playing mafia. You have three primary responsibilities. In order of importance I'll list them up. 1) Your primary responsibility as town is to not get lynched. If all townies do nothing but that, the game is automatically won. This should be the highest priority for everyone at all times. If you don't get lynched as town, you've already raised the chances of lynching mafia significantly. There is no such thing as a bad town, just your own failure at communicating at the level required to get town to trust you. 2) The second responsibility is to influence others and interact with the group as a whole. A lone ranger is worthless to town. A player who calls out the mafia team on day 1, fails to get any of them lynched for 2 days and then gets nightkilled is completely worthless to town. Sure he's going to be an ObsQT warrior and call everyone bad, without realizing he himself is the problem. If you cannot influence other people it's irrelevant if you're right or wrong. This responsibility also includes the responsibility to allow yourself to be influenced by others. If someone is making sense, help spread the message. 3) The third responsibility is finding mafia through analysis. This is what way too many people think mafia is about. It's completely useless to find mafia if you just get yourself lynched in the process. It's of course very important to figure out mafia, but if you're unable to fulfill either your first or your second responsibility, the third one makes no difference. A player who either gets lynched, or is unable to either convince fellow townies to follow his lead, or intelligently follow and help other leaders, is completely useless to town. I'm going to stop the lecturing now, I see you've dug yourself, for one purpose or another, into a corner and you're going to be resistant to advice for now. Just come back to this after the game, especially if you end up actually being town. You are a good player superbia, but you have to remember there's more to mafia than just writing down three names and then spamming "called it" in the ObsQT. This is a layered, complex game, not a simple one. | ||
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On June 27 2016 18:41 Superbia wrote: Our egos are clashing and it will result in nothing productive. =/ Pretend I'm town tomorrow and let's see where that gets us?  We'll see, but yes, I agree, we're not being productive here so I'm going to drop it for now. | ||
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On June 27 2016 18:59 Superbia wrote: Treat others as equals, Jean. You mean the dirty peasants? We elected officials try to minimize our contact with them. | ||
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On June 27 2016 20:30 Tictock wrote: This is silly and pretty pointless and I can't imagine will ever have any value. Unless you are trying to build a case that Jean is the smurf of somebody who is this tryhard and also lynched scum D1 when he didn't have too... ![[image loading]](http://assets1.bigthink.com/system/idea_thumbnails/25298/original/449px-The_Office__USA_-Dwight_Schrute.jpg?1291737714) | ||
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He is probably talking about the bodyguard. This is the one thing that's going to be extremely helpful in deducing GlowingBear's alignment. His choice of bodyguard is very, very important. Do not let him get away with anything less than a full explanation for his choice and make sure it fits his thinking and approach. In addition, this is just speculation, but at some point in the game it may be a good idea to claim the bodyguard role. The reason is quite simple. We probably have some blues the mafia is going to be looking into shooting. A claimed bodyguard is a massive annoyance to mafia because if they want to eliminate me they have to first kill the bodyguard (if I understand the rules correctly). That means two extra nights for our blue roles to do their job. Also, this is more long term, but there is no world where we have named townie + 3 blue roles. That would be excessive, so if a situation comes up where the claims look like that, be very vary of the claims and start making hard decisions on blue roles. | ||
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On June 28 2016 00:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Chez, my friend, I would like to know where your head's at after the night ends. Is there anyone setting off your colour blind alarm? Chez has been unimpressive so far. There's always a certain leeway with him, because you can usually count on him showing up to actually do stuff later in the game, but this is getting both annoying and suspicious. I don't trust quiet revolutionaries. | ||
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On June 28 2016 00:49 Tictock wrote: I think it's a little early to be discussing this. How about you deliver me some mafia instead of telling people what they should or should not discuss. Go forth my minion and find mafia, then deliver me their heads. I shall make quick judgement of your successes or failures. | ||
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On June 28 2016 01:27 Tictock wrote: Ok I'm just going to assume you are mafia with Damdred then. Is this something you genuinely believe? | ||
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On June 27 2016 00:06 Jean Valjean wrote: Or rather, he has made a ton of posts, most of which deal with his own ability play the game. Do you think it's reasonable for him to just stall, stall, stall as mafia? Is he smart/dumb enough to do that correctly (depending on how functional the town is, it can either be a smart or a dumb move). Also you, just like Artanis, have put yourself in a situation where you just townread everyone except for a few afk players. As with Artanis, you are another player that has no excuse to scumread me at present, so I'll do you the favor of adding myself to your townlist. This means you're townreading the following people: Artanis Damdred Chez Tumble Superbia Jean QT In addition, you townread GB and I'm going to throw in Skynx as an unlikely mafia, although feel free to disagree with me on that. That's 9/13 players already in your town circle, and your lynch list looks something like this: Moosy Jealous Tictock emperorchampion So, trolls, new players, low content people and sure, tictock. Maybe add Skynx to that list? Look over your own reads again and think, do you believe this is the most reasonable solution to the game Damdred? It was the most reasonable solution to the game... | ||
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On June 28 2016 06:54 Jealous wrote: So let me get this clear on paper: you claim Vigi? yes he's claiming vigilante, and superbia is claiming tracker. Both are believable claims, mostly because ticktock is the scummiest player in the thread and it makes no sense for mafia to fakeclaim right now. I think we just won. | ||
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On June 28 2016 08:29 Tictock wrote: Lol that people are voting me. Maybe I'll actually get caught up to find out why. there's a track claim on you, and we have two dead mafia. ie: if you're scum it's concede time. | ||
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On June 28 2016 08:41 Tictock wrote: Either you just fucked up SUPER bad (see what i did there?) as scum... Or this is the worst fakeclaim on this site since December. So you're contesting the claim? Fine. I assume you're also ok with lynching you then Superbia, because either way it's an auto win. | ||
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I will try to make sense of what is going on in a little while, also I'm not particularly bothered about what we kill today. | ||
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I'm going to go out on a massive limb, explain nothing and talkt to you tomorrow. I think Chez might be the last mafia. | ||
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On June 29 2016 18:36 Superbia wrote: But I'm going to see what Jean does first Mostly: not much. I am, as explained, busy today. This has nothing to do with my alignment, simply real life obligations. I am not caught up on the previous day. I invite anyone who thinks voting me is a good idea to go back and read my approach and contributions on day 1. I am going to try my best not to be an asshole about it, even if lynching the most articulate and helpful player in town who lynched mafia on day 1 on day 2 is... well... very special. My current thoughts, explained briefly are as follows: My spat with superbia during the night made me feel better about him. Specifically the post where he talked about aiming for being so right that people had no choice but to listen to him showed a sort of a defiant attitude that is far more likely to come from a townie. Superbia's fakeclaim was really bad. It changes how we view tictock. Tictock obviously knew the claim was fake, but that could simply be because he knew who delivered the mafia nk. I think he still requires some looking at. Tictock's responses during the night weren't very townie, although I'm not sure at all. Another thing is that this is the time where I'd expect tictock to come in and start actually figuring out the rest of the game. Artanis and Skynx are two players who really, really need to contribute more. I still think Jealous doesn't sound like mafia, but I'm weighing him on the "newbie scale", which might be a mistake. Chez, more than anyone else, has been extremely underwhelming. He has not yet provided a single colored list with the classic insights that he almost always does. He is not helping us solve the game, which despite his trolling he almost always does. I'm going to move my vote on Chez for these reasons. | ||
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Maybe I was right on day 1 after all. ##unvote ##vote Artanis[Xp] That is so weak, so awfully awfully weak. | ||
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Please explain in some detail how what you called me out as mafia for is actually scummy. | ||
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I have had lingering suspicions of Artanis, even in that summary post I just wrote I mentioned how little impact he has had on the game. I voiced my concerns repeatedly on Day 1, and even though I ended up not killing him I felt like he was fading into the background. I have been struggling with figuring out his alignment and I'm nowhere certain it's town, or mafia, for that matter. The reason I just voted him is very simple. I mentioned three people who were inactive or not impactful on night 1, and he says "you can be mafia" because somehow that is a contradiction with me not having caught up. Sheer page count or post count is not an indicator of activity. I do not think Artanis is actually dumb enough to think his reasoning here is valid. Then there's the meta factor. It doesn't help that I feel like Artanis is just about the one player here who has the balls to try to kill me as scum. Go for the big play or go home. This is all subjective and kind of bad analysis, but I'm explaining why it affects my thought process. I wish I had more time to play. Just like on Day 1 I am simply a person who has true real life obligations that I cannot ignore. Sometimes I'm able to contribute a lot and sometimes I'm not. I am, predictably, going to flip vanilla town (yes, this is me claiming my role) if I get lynched. It greatly concerns me that town is so willing to go along with this. Just like I repeatedly have extended an invitation and explanation to all the people I suspect this game, clearly detailing why it is I suspect them, I would ask the same of the people who suspect me. Explain why you want to lynch me, and what needs explaining for me to alleviate your concerns. | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:21 Damdred wrote: But posts like this are really what bothers me. Like really badly, so many things bother me. What specifically bothers you? | ||
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On June 29 2016 20:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote: If you actually knew me you would've known I would've long, looooooooong conceded as scum with this kind of scumteam and would've never been able to put in as much effort as I have. Just look at any of my old scumgames. Feel free to keep bench pressing bad logic though. In the meantime, I'll give you one chance. Tell me what your actual account is and I might let you live for today. That is never going to happen | ||
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Artanis' reaction to my pressure yesterday Artanis' post where he talks about smurfhunting (it shows sort of a.... chill attitude, that mafia might not dare portray) Artanis' filter length So whatever, I'm just gonna assume he's a baddie, which wouldn't be that surprising. | ||
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On June 29 2016 21:03 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The lion concedes he was OMGUSing. It is too late for the lion. The zebra is hungry. You understand the actual chances of this happening are next to zero, right? | ||
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Jealous is basically my "this guy is never going to be mafia/mafia of the year". I basically love how he think, I love everything he posts and he is a strapping lad in every possible way. I think this guy has a fantastic future in TL Mafia. If he somehow ends up the mafia I'll be doubly impressed. But yeah, I am never lynching this guy. Skynx had a good day 1, but unless he's contributed much since daybreak I'm meh on him GB is "confirmed" (he has a role, no other blues have claimed, he shot mafia) I am "confirmed" (towniest player in thread, lynched mafia) Superbia is probably town. His gambit is of course possible mafia play (superbia is probably the player with the greatest mafia range in this game), but meh. He also sounded townie in the end when I put some pressure on him during the night. Tumblewood has been more backgroundy than most, but every time I read posts by him I just think he doesn't sound like what mafia would sound like. I'm sort of letting him off as town. I think mafia is most likely somewhere in: Damdred/Artanis/Chez/Tictock Of those there exists at least one reason for 3 of them (all but chez) to think they're town. Damdred might be genuinely frustrated about the lack of respect he's getting (he has been bitching about being a good player yet ignored). Tictock still sounds scummy, but his reaction to superbia's test was.... ok? He's still suspicious because as I explained earlier all he needed was to know the track was false, but still. He's probably my 2nd choice for the remaining mafia. Artanis I already explained. | ||
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On June 29 2016 21:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm curious how it feels to be on the opposite end of the table though. It's interesting. We know one of us is good enough to pull his head out of his ass during a tunnel and get shit done (lynch scum). Now we're about to find out if the other one is good enough. pro-tip: I'm not gonna help you by doing the typical townie things on TL Mafia: flame excessively, yell, pout, self-vote, or any of the other classic defenses. I am going to stick to my principles, stay transparent, explain my thoughts, and I believe that will get me where I need to go. So yeah, it's interesting, unexpected, but something I can deal with. | ||
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There is literally no downside for you in better explaining your read, if you're town. At worst, you'll still want to lynch me but town has a better understanding of why you did it, at best, you're going to realize your conclusion is faulty and we can start doing other things. | ||
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Jean Valjean
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On June 29 2016 22:45 Tictock wrote: Humm, I'm gunna hold off giving this game too much thought for a few more hours, but I plan to be around for EoD today. So I'm kinda realizing that if we are putting Jean under some scrutiny due to the possibility of an Epic Bus situation D1, then we should also reexamine Super as well since I think the biggest thing going for him is his push D1 on Moosy. So kinda open ended to everyone, what do you think about Super's fake claim on me today? Too ballsy for scum? Too insane for town? In particular I feel like he did not provide sufficient pressure to me to be able to really conclude that I am not scum for not having conceded (I'm actually not a fan of how much this "well he didn't concede today, must not be mafia" logic is being thrown around today...). I've shown in other games that I tend to not give up or surrender despite dire circumstances. You are voting me. What in my gameplay seems indicative of your "super bus" scenario. Didn't I waffle on Moosy's real alignment right until the lynch? Do I actually sound like mafia? Have my contributions this game been pushing mafia agenda? Generally, while I understand fear lynching, you need to have at least one thing that makes the person you want to lynch mafia. I do not want to get lynched, as I pointed out myself, the no1 priority of a townie is not to get lynched. The problem is I'm having a hard time finding the right frequency to communicate with a few of you (for example Artanis, and it seems you/damdred). I'm trying to be open and transparent, but none of you actually want to explain why you think I'm mafia, and to someone who likes structured and logical play as much as I do, it's very hard for me (and a weakness of mine) to communicate with people who just want to lynch because... random butterflies? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 02:30 Jealous wrote: To remove uncertainty from potentially painful end-game scenarios that have muddled my analytical breakdown of when we CAN or SHOULD lynch Jean, I have a couple of questions: GlowingBear, will you ever use your pardon? If so, in what scenarios and why? If you were in an endgame scenario where you had to choose between Jean and your bodyguard to lynch, who would you lynch? Jean: Under what circumstances would you push a GlowingBear lynch? Never, scum vigilante isn't a role in the game so he's confirmed town. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 03:47 Damdred wrote: Also besides that fact Jean can't really be allowed to reach lylo or if he's scum he auto wins if hes here at start of day meh. Why can I specifically not be allowed to reach lylo Damdred? Also, why are you trying to take care of that problem now. For someone bitching about how you're one of the best players in the game you're showing a tremendously weak grasp of scumhunting. There is no way I flip mafia, because I have not done anything a mafia would do. I am helpful I lynch mafia I am transparent I explain my reads I help push the game I push buttons on people to make them talk It is actually amazing that I know in this situation that one of Artanis and Damdred must not be mafia (and if I'm right on chez, neither is). Because those two people specifically should know the very situation that has come up, being very experienced. I know I have seen this situation before, multiple times. I lynch mafia and then surely I must have bussed on day 2 because people fear me. I am not this good at playing mafia, no one is. One of the things I would like an input on from other people post-game is how to avoid this specific situation, I thought I did well on day 1, I thought I put myself in a position, yet players who at least claim to be good at this game are literally head up to waist in their asses thinking I surely must be mafia because only mafia would lynch mafia and play like town. That is perfect logic. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Everyone, and I mean literally everyone, has at absolutely best skimmed every post in the game. It's much more likely people skim and skip parts of the game. I am just honest about it, because you know... I'm transparent and helpful. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Can't really get anything out of the vote counts. We already know MD committed suicide-by-mayor and EC ended up parking his vote on TW (off-wagon) and didn't come back until 90 min past deadline. Could've actually been AFK, could've been strategical, but there's strategical reasons for him to be afk whether JVJ is scum or not. He positioned himself in a way that he couldn't end up voting for either wagon but could probably justify a vote on either still. I also went through Chez's filter but didn't find much in it to sway me one way or the other. Bleh. Compare Chez's filter with his efforts in, for example, Names are hard, where he actually contributed to hunting scum. Sure, he might be full on troll this game and only part time troll last game, and I'll be the first to admit, I am terrible at reading trolling or weird players (I mentioned this with Moosy and Chez at some point on Day 1). None of this changes the fact that I have this expectation that in his own weird way Chez is always going to be useful to town. That is precisely the reason I enjoy playing with him despite him being a troll, which is something I generally don't like. He is actually a capable scum hunter and he is very much able to help town win when he puts his mind to it, and none of this is what I've seen so far. Not to mention, this is getting to be almost PoE. I have no idea if scumdred or scumtock would have the balls to attack me. I know you would, but I just have too many reasons to give you a pass today. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The main reason I think you're mafia is because you're playing survivalist and because everyone else bar Chez is extremely Town. Also, mafia does all of those things, are you kidding? Mafia's the party that wants to look good. I'm playing survivalist because that is what I have to do. I don't particularly want to, but I have to. Notice though that in the process I'm still trying to figure the game out. I have laid out reasons for everything I've done. On June 30 2016 04:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Logic is an awful guide in mafia. Townies are illogical as hell whilst mafia's very concerned with it. Some townies are very logical, for example, yours truly. In fact, almost every townie who is actually consistently really good at this game is logical. I mean, it's hard to not ridicule you when your thought process is: Jean wants to stay alive - like a townie Jean lynches mafia - like a townie Jean is logical - like townies should strife to be Jean is transparent - like a townie should be Jean is helpful and willing to engage and explain - like a townie should be Jean fought for the mayor role - something mafia NEVER does Conclusion: Jean is mafia. Q.E.D I am of course massively frustrated with both myself for not figuring out how to beat sense into you guys, and at you guys for being so immensely stupid to think it's even possible I am mafia. Show me ONE mafia in the past year on team liquid who has played a game anywhere like what I've done here. Even the best scum players cling to weak arguments, are uncooperative and don't show the leadership I've shown. You are lynching objectively the most townie player you have ever seen on TL Mafia. No I'm not one of those people who can throw a tantrum or say something dumb and become an innocent child in the process, but I have, for all intents and purposes, played what should be an exemplary perfect town game. I let logic guide me to a scum lynch. I made sure scum had no shot at the mayor role, and I've argued and fought in the reasonable and helpful way we want this forum to work in, and the reward is an inane suspicion from people whose best reasons to attack me is literally "he's trying to survive" and "he's trying to solve the game BUT admits not having read every post". It is no wonder we have the behavioral issues we have on this site, the only way people will believe anything you say is if you become an emotional trainwreck, something I will not allow myself to do because I am trying to set an example here. Even if it means getting lynched, which I believe should be every town's #1 priority to avoid. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:23 Tictock wrote: Eh maybe not. So Jean assume this crazy town does in fact lynch you. Would you say Chez should definitely be the next lynch? Probably Chez Possibly Artanis, but that's mostly because I don't want to live in a world where he is this bad and town. It's based on nothing but Artanis' skill level at the game. Maybe Skynx, in face of overwhelming ignorance he seems to KNOW I am town, and his contributions dropped off quite fast. I don't want to call for people's head for not being bad, but who knows. My suspicions on him is mostly based on his strong early game and weak game ever since (which might be mafia indicative). In general, I believe the game will sort of solve itself. GB is confirmed and unkillable so mafia must hunt for the bodyguard. We definitely have one unclaimed blue role so there's that too, which might help. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:30 Artanis[Xp] wrote: These comments make it really, really hard not to just want to afk lynch you and stop talking to you. For someone who claims to be playing to win you're not doing a very good job at diplomacy. I don't really care, I'm trying to convince everyone else but you by posting. You specifically I have decided to cut my losses with, sometimes you can't argue with stupid. I think you're awful at scumhunting if you're town, at least this game, and I don't want to be diplomatic with you. I want to convince everyone else that I am not mafia. I think that is the best way forward. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:19 Tictock wrote: I like how I'm being totally ignored and your argument is basically "I'm not mafia kus I'm so clearly town" Funnily enough there is a very easy thing you could do to convince me you are in fact town, but you are not doing it... And what would that be? I'm also willing to learn, as today has demonstrated i'm far from a perfect player. I know this particular issue is a massive weakness of mine (I always end up being assumed to be the "hidden mafia"). I wish I knew how to get the supertown status with no suspicions attached to it. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:30 GlowingBear wrote: Stop defending yourself JVJ. Get us a lynch. I'm 100% against lynching you I think Chez is most likely, I already explained why. Like I have this feeling that Chez almost always indicates in some weird way (often through lists) how he's thinking about the game. He has not done that here. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:40 Tictock wrote: This is ironically a very emotionally based statement. I don't think this is actually true though some people like to use emotional reactions to base their reads on. Besides "he's trying to survive" is a very valid method of scum hunting. Motivations behind posting is very much something to be considered. Now that I'm thinking about it, you've been very vocal about how Town should play ... but I'm interested in what your thinking is regarding the best method town should employ when hunting scum. 1) everyone tries to survive. Read my #1 commandment on playing town, it's basically "try not to get lynched". 2) Everyone has their own way of scumhunting. I could write an essay about it, but it's usually a combination of multiple factors. Take current Artanis for example, he's very much a combination read for me. Scumpoint: Artanis is a good player who is playing extremely badly Townpoint: Artanis has a long filter Townpoint: Artanis is jolly and willing to chase random things, like smurfhunting, he's also being a dick in a way that feels townie Scumpoint: His logic was way off on day 1 and he let himself be pushed around Townpoint: He's still actively playing when his meta suggests he would usually quit or lower his effort as scum when this far behind. Townpoint: He is making a big play if he's mafia. If he knows I'll flip town he also knows massive attention will come to him when I'm dead. Scumpoint: He is one of the few players who might go for the "go big or go home" approach, sort of contesting my pervious point These are just random thoughts. Then there's tone in individual posts and interactions, and I don't weigh all points equally. In general it's easiest to find mafia when someone ticks many scum boxes. This means of course that my read on Artanis is swingy and conflicted, but in general I don't want to kill him becuase there's simply too many reasons not to. Because no one that is actually playing in this town ticks all the scum boxes, I simply think the most straightforward play is to kill Chezinu, who is uncharacteristically useless and by process of elimination the most likely to flip mafia. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:47 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Also he might've been looking to see if he could get away with lynching someone else if he's mafia. But it doesn't matter, JVJ's emotional-trainwreck post that claims not to be an emotional trainwreck probably makes him town. I just find it very difficult to actually vote for my friend  Literally the cancer that's killing TL Mafia. Hint: I am perfectly aware my recent posting is emotional (despite claiming it isn't), does that change your opinion? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:48 Jealous wrote: You can't really blame JVJ for "trying to survive" because as I said when I was under pressure, both town and scum have that in their best interest and in their faction's best interest. Town wants to live to prevent a mislynch that would extend scum's lifetime, scum wants to live to scum at night. When this wagon first formed, I thought it was purely to a light a fire under JVJ's ass and force him to devote some time to D2 and making reads, but at this point I feel like you guys are wasting valuable time that could be spent having him contribute to other reads with greater depth because you force him on the defensive. If he didn't have to deal with the repeated badgering, he might do something that is better for the town as a whole - i.e., provide detailed reads. This would be to town's benefit whether he is town or not, and some of the things he may say would be more AI than him trying to stay alive. So, in pursuing that line of thought: JVJ, why not Damdred? I posted a pretty detailed list of posts from him and my interpretation of them. Despite you saying that you like my play, you seem to not even have him on your radar. Cut your losses on defense and consider that the best defense could be a good offense. This guy is my hero. I haven't read Damdred, what little time I've had here today has been spent defending myself. In addition, I made a comment early on in day 1 that "Damdred had a post that sounded like an actual human being", and his annoyance at not getting the respect he thinks he deserves means he's slightly less likely to be mafia. And tbh... I forgot about him. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
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On June 30 2016 04:49 Skynx wrote: I do apologise for my absence. It's basically due to the fact that after my 1st scum game, I think I played 1 very good town game and playing good right now aswell so I got lazy because i was so town. Also other stuff like work and all but lack of activity today is purely due to lazyness This is a relatively townie response to be honest. (tonally) | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 04:51 Tumblewood wrote: I also don't like the way that tt jumped on Jean after art brought it up. He wasn't thinking about Jean until art made a case (which was not so convincing) and then immediately jumped on him. I don't know if this is true and reading jealous' case right now so can't check it. Maybe it's valid, who knows. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:00 Tumblewood wrote: Jean and jealous can you stop sucking each other's dicks for having similar playstyles Great minds bro | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:03 Superbia wrote: What'd I miss? Why would damdred die tonight? What are the chances Superbia makes the fakeclaim on tictock as scum? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Like, take it as a compliment, you're all doing a great job, better than I've been admitting. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:04 Superbia wrote: It'd explain why I was 100% correct on 2/3 scum without making silly long posts. ;p The posts aren't to be right, they're to convince others you're right. that's why I lynched Moosy and not you | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I agree | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:05 Tictock wrote: Actually it was Damdred that brought it up. So I went from Damdred being my main scumread to teaming up with him to take down the Mayor. I'm glad that you think I'm this good as scum though. you act as if taking down your town mayor is some sort of an achievement. I really, really hope it's just Chez and the game ends. I'm not sure I can take this game much longer, i'll become the monster inside, I will, in the end, lose this mask of kindness, of helpfulness, of transparency and love and become the beast I really am. you don't want the beast guys, you really don't want the beast. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:08 GlowingBear wrote: Wait Jean Why did you drop your scumread on Superbia again? a) I pressured him very hard during the night, he responded in a relatively townie way in the end. Specifically his post where he said something like "My goal is to be so right all the time that people can't ignore me" when I was pestering him to build cases and explain things. I've talked about this in slightly more detail before b) I don't think Superbia would have made the risky fakeclaim on tictock as scum. It just feels like a really low percentage play as mafia. c) In all fairness, the guy promised to lynch scum in his mayor bid, and has had pretty solid reads so far. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
You don't know the real me. Also, I did get a bit angry with you. Just a tiny bit. I may have thrown my mouse at the screen just very lightly, just a little bit. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:08 Tictock wrote: I will... but this also feels like pandering... Eh I wont be terribly upset if Chez gets lynched but I like my vote where it is. I'll be upset if Damdred gets lynched and flips town kus that will just mean I put a lot of effort into reading him properly for nothing. If it isn't obvious by my posting, I genuinely care about quality mafia play. Like I really, really just want to play in games where all sides try and the games end up interesting and fun. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:12 Tictock wrote: Oh now we want to talk about this? I would have preferred some responses to my post like 4 hours ago when I asked this... People like talking to me, maybe you should put some skill points into charm and looks so you can achieve alpha status like me. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Well, if I'm right on Chez you've basically been a giant boulder in the road to town victory. I still love you, wounds heal. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Can you rehash (or just find in your filter for me) the reason you townread Chez so hard at the beginning of day 1? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 29 2016 04:16 Jealous wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 23:50 Damdred wrote: How am i pushing shitty scum reads again? Why are my townreads super lazy again when i've beat most of the game to the same reads exactly? This post is terrible, largely because his scum reads ARE shitty (TT, SK, JVJ, Jealous) because they were all policy lynches. Those are base level scum reads. You make those based on a lack of content as opposed to anything actually said. His townreads ARE super lazy and his stance is NOT vindicated by the fact that they are the popular reads at this juncture; popularity does not imply that his reads had any substance to begin with. He gave out townreads with zero evidence, which is super lazy. Also, super easy if you actually do know who town is, being scum. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 00:43 Damdred wrote: Give good reasoning on them right now TT. since you want to lambast all of my reads and say they are all shit lets see it with a decent explanation. Instead of proffering any explanation on his own reads, he pushes TT to explain HIS. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 01:09 Damdred wrote: But on the other hand kind of want to townreads tt....hrmmm decisions come after food Already flip-flopping only 26 minutes after the prior post; maybe he decided that TT was not an easy target anymore? Or maybe he wanted to appease TT so that TT wouldn't counter-pressure him into actually substantiating any of his claims? + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 04:04 Damdred wrote: Well we can't have everyone town read there has to be a scum even outside moosey for you tumble. And Tt idk he just wasn't very smart in his postings took a post that was a compliment to him not being lynch bait now tried to use it to scum read me, and has been boring sense trying to make mud stick. Flips on TT yet again. Also tries to divert attention from Moosy yet again. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 12:46 Damdred wrote: Seriously why don't we make me mayor? I'm still a good player, I'm obviously going to try this game and with double votes mafia has to kill me before lylo anyway. It's the best of both worlds, a good dialed in scum hunting damdred with double votes The summary of all of his (multiple) posts trying to get into a position of power. No substance at all besides "I'm a good player, guys!" + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 22:25 Damdred wrote: Nobody else over moosey super? How can one defend Moosy so much and get away with it? He goes on to make some long posts @Superbia where he actually does provide some content and explanations, but still pushes for a policy lynch on me. + Show Spoiler + Lol. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:26 Damdred wrote: Dear God super I've explained twice why I think jealous is mafia. For asking me so many questions you aren't reading ny posts at all? I've been well,documented thinking Tt is scum More like he stated multiple times why he wants to lynch me for inactivity and flip-flopped on TT multiple times. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:57 Damdred wrote: I won't vote gb or super and neither should have the pardoned position. And gb it's because you don't do well with these sorts of decisions tbh. While I tr both all a sudden the last few pages have made me kind of suspicious on super just seems off now. I would like to be pardoner or mayor. There will always be debate but I am one of the best players in this game. And idk why art isn't voting for me rip. I have to check the timestamp but I think this is before he votes GB. This is another one of his "I am the best player, so I should be mayor," and another buttbuddy request to Art and Chez, a few of which I have omitted above because that's all they really are. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 02:12 Damdred wrote: Where did I give ec a pass I've been,trying to decide if he's scum or been for awhile I didn't,mind his early posts. And these later ones aren't horrid he's at least thinking. On June 27 2016 02:18 Damdred wrote: Gen I guess I did give him a halfway day pass Horrible lie, good thing he got called for it. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 02:19 Damdred wrote: I'm trying to remember what I was seeing. I think he said some things that were ok but kinda side lined wanted to see more from him. But I probably would retract it but he's had some decent posts and went after a hard target so idk if I would lynch today This is about EC. "I'm trying to remember what I was seeing," when not too long prior he was supposedly reading filters, which he still could have done in order to better answer this question. Still hadn't given any concrete evidence thus far. + Show Spoiler + Although I agreed with this at the time, and still do (about it being a good thought), in the context of Damdred's posts I wouldn't think it surprising that this is an example of collusion in a Mafia QT in order to have EC save some face and Damdred jumped on it instantly. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:05 Damdred wrote: Ooooo crap jealous is scum. He was the first to scum read chez and hasn't played with him. Come brothers it,must be done. So quick to create a wagon on me and suck up to Chez, in one breath and with no other rationale. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:08 Damdred wrote: God the more I read the jealous post the more I hate it. The gb read doesn't make sense at all, it sounds like a scum read for lack of activity no real contribution to the game. But town leans him anyway. God that's craxy On June 27 2016 05:09 Damdred wrote: Like jealous isn't even reading the game it seems as its clear why gb is getting mayor because he's claimed blue lol? On June 27 2016 05:16 Damdred wrote: Just feels nm so fabricated idk what else to say about jealous reads. A lot of safe reads I think or ones that seem safe. Maybe I'm tainted by a bit of omgus but the list just seems strange to me. On June 27 2016 05:17 Damdred wrote: Idc about that now, really want other people's opinions about jealous read post. Really everyone weigh in On June 27 2016 05:44 Damdred wrote: That's the thing though jealous the whole,basis for gb running for mayor is in his filter. And also your read still sounds like a scum read that ends in a non logical concussion. Would still lynch Tt first for,not doing anything at all On June 27 2016 05:54 Damdred wrote: Lynch Tt Jean blah Ironic when 1. he misread my GB read in the first place and 2. he has done far less in order to substantiate his own claims. Pushes very hard for my or TT lynch. Is this what he meant by vindicated? + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:57 Damdred wrote: I also think moosey flips town though meh. Just a gut feel nothing to base it on Some things don't change. + Show Spoiler + He's STILL pushing this alliance, so desperately. I'm not surprised that Art jumped on his bandwagon against me now. Everything after this is more recent. So, conclusions: 1. Weak early game that he tries to claim was strong. 2. Baseless pushes for mayor/pardoner. 3. Constantly sucking up to Chez/Artanis in order to get a townie alliance going. 4. A lot of hypocrisy and flip-flopping. 5. A lot of EC/Moosy defense and free-pass giving. ##Vote Damdred This is actually a really good case... | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I'm gonna do that a bit and wait for Damdy to blow up or something. #emotionmafia | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: DON'T EVEN DARE I will literally spite-afk-vote for you the entire game if you switch to Damdred till one of us is dead. I care more about winning than your favour. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:22 Damdred wrote: Do what you have to do I'll o what I need to. Do you think your attack on me based on trying to solve the game without being 100% caught up is valid? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:26 Damdred wrote: If people actually read my posts without skipping them they would know where I stand so far. That is to jean and super. As for you super wrong doesn't mean mafia in the ec case, and if you would check any game I was in you would see I use the exact same rules as always with moosey. Can you respond to the jealous case, point by point preferably? | ||
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And my reservations on lynching Damdred are mostly tone-based, so maybe I'm just wrong and bad. I don't know, Chez or Damdred, both could be the final mafia. I think Artanis is far less likely than before. If both of these fail then it's possibly tictock, I think I'm not forgetting anyone else. But I really just think it has to be Chez or Damdred. | ||
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On June 30 2016 05:28 Superbia wrote: I can't overlook it dude. I think your posts and activity have been townie but if chez isn't scum then last mafia is playing super well or it's jean with a yolobus. super well AND it's jean with a yolobus If I'm scum this is an academy award deserving performance. | ||
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On June 30 2016 05:33 Superbia wrote: If you're scum then your team got super-annihilated (partially thanks to you) and you'll lose. It'd be a good attempt but probably no. x: well personal play, I guess. The posting part Yeah It'd also mean I'm completely retarded, but that's fine. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:40 Tictock wrote: Eh, tbh I kinda feel like this is just like last EoD where everyone kinda just fell in line with Jean. I've got nothing to suggest Chez is town, I'm just not comfortable going down the path of least resistance like this. You act as if there's no active struggle involved with people "falling in line". There is no reason to think I'm mafia, so people have dropped the cases on me. Also, I'm starting to think Damdred might flip scum, but who knows. Lynching Chez is always a goddamn coinflip, but at least we'll get another shot at a blue coming up with something. | ||
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I'm gonna go away until deadline I think, it's driving me nuts being here. switched back to chez. | ||
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On June 30 2016 05:40 Tictock wrote: Eh, tbh I kinda feel like this is just like last EoD where everyone kinda just fell in line with Jean. I've got nothing to suggest Chez is town, I'm just not comfortable going down the path of least resistance like this. I know I'm doing basically the same thing but who knows how genuine this post is by tictock. | ||
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On June 30 2016 05:47 Skynx wrote: Kill Jean. jesus why...? | ||
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On June 30 2016 05:49 Skynx wrote: His Damdred vote came out of absolutely nothing, he's now switching to Chez for absolutely nothing aswell. There is more i can quote and shit but no time rly. Damdred vote came out of a super long good case written by jealous. | ||
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Jean Valjean
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On June 30 2016 05:53 Skynx wrote: That case came out 24h ago, you had all this time to read that and be "wow thats a good case". Why now? I decided to read it, I had skimmed it, and I had forgotten about damdred. It's mostly a function of finally having time to sit down and playing the game. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had a super long good case on someone once. + Show Spoiler + On May 02 2013 21:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Subject name: Bloodyc0bbler Nickname: The Cobbler Profile: Mafia Future: Lynched by the mob of justice. This annoys the cobbler, which can be seen in his first post in the game. A post which announces the tunnel he will put himself in for the rest of the game. BC instantly calls Yamato likely scum and calls OO scum for suggesting that claiming miller is acceptable. So far, we've had only one person that claimed self-aware miller and I'm pretty sure he's town. It seems likely that BC wanted millers to stay hidden to give scum a chance for a mislynch in case they get checked. Town players that claim miller are excellent since it reduces from the pool of players that give detectives false information, and if scum has no intention of claiming miller, they certainly don't want town players to do so. It's also an easy way to look like you're contributing. The full exchange between OO and BC can be found in OO's case so I won't reiterate that. BC, the player who had a strong scumread on Yamato never bothers to truly push him. Instead, he blabbers on about millers as if it'll get him anywhere. It won't, and he knows it won't, but he'd rather keep talking about that than actually having to push his scumread. Why doesn't he do so? It's fairly obvious. Once Yamato flips green, all eyes would be turned to him and his filter wouldn't survive the scrutiny. So he pushes Yamato weakly. Never asks people what they thought of him, just answering questions when people decide to look into the case. And the case is pretty damn awful. Read this case, and read it thoroughly. It is full of shit. Yamato has created 3 cases at this point and pushed for them stronger than BC has on anyone. Consolidating on town is a shit argument because it's an instant majority game with no deadline so how the FUCK does that make anyone scum? It doesn't, it's just bullshit padding. Then there's a whole bunch of loaded questions he asks and answers himself with no content whatsoever. To top it all off, he adds a second scumspect that he never mentioned before in the same post and finishes the same post off with a defense of himself. he never wanted this case to be looked at. He never wanted yamato lynched. Would this be the case a cobbler makes to get someone lynched? Is this the fear of any scumteam that causes him to get shot N1 every time? No. It's awful, and he needs to die for it. These are the first posts he made instantly after he posted his case. + Show Spoiler + On April 26 2013 05:35 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Why does town have to have a Jailer? Scum having two "rbers" isn't uncommon nor is town not having medics. Setup speculation serves no real basis on how to analyze if someone is town/scum. On April 26 2013 05:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote: EBWOP Actually given that town could have jailkeepers or medics. not having jailkeepers makes sense given that town has no real need of rbers, On April 26 2013 05:45 BloodyC0bbler wrote: As would I. I am merely pointing it out based on the comment made about "why would town jail bc" I would want to lynch Palmar for same reasons people would say "lynch bc for" What people don't realize Is i took a firm stance day 1 on a lynch and Palmar nor Ace did. They sheeped. On April 26 2013 05:55 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Interesting point VE. I actually agree with it as well No mention of Yamato or Mr. CC, he just instantly jumps back to town sentiment. He doesn't give a shit about actually getting Yamato lynched, he'd be fine with a Palmar lynch, or whoever town wants to lynch, as long as it isn't him. This is the last time he mentions Yamato for a long time other than in passing, the player he has a 100% scumread on. WHY DOES HE NOT CARE ABOUT GETTING HIS 100% SCUMREAD LYNCHED?!??! Anyway, the thread goes on with suspicion being cast upon Clarity and Shiao, two people we later found out were scum. BC's initial response: A null read and they should be dealt with with a vigi. No one really cared about getting either lynched. Following thread sentiment, seems legit. Then, he sees one of his buddies make a bad post. He knows people are suspecting Shiao already. Since he's inactive, he mind as well go for it and collect some towncred. Buut Shiao answers decently and BC notices that town doesn't want to lynch Shiao, so he lets it go. Backing off weakly on his scumbuddy because it wasn't necessary to sacrifice him here just yet. It's interesting to note how he jumps on Shiao so strongly, yet hasn't commented on Yamato's posts at all in quite some time. His #1 scumread is forgotten. He hasn't even responded to any posts Mr. CC made either, which is another one of his suspects. Hold on hold on hold on VE I don't actually want Yamato lynched I just want to pressure him! So eventually, Yamato responds to the case. BC's response: Does this look like someone who was 100% convinced Yamato was scum? No. He never actually gets back to it either. There's one point in his favour and that's that he calls both Clarity and Shiao likely mafia, but he knew they were likely to die. He didn't have enough towncred to prevent it, and he wouldn't be able to save them anyway so he just went with the flow, as BC has been doing the entire game. Following thread sentiment. So the cobbler has been pretty inactive for a while from here, only making a few posts here and there that essentially say nothing. Thus, VE calls him out. And pronto, BC shits out a few reads on lurkers that would surprise absolutely no one. Look at this part on Yamato. It's not telling people why they should lynch Yamato, it's telling people "I'm not scum because I have reasons for my suspicion on him!" In no way does this push Yamato in any way, it's just his justification for finding him scummy. So it turns out BC didn't find Yamato's response satisfactory, yet he never bothered to respond to it. Why not? Because he didn't want it in the limelight. So now BC's main suspects are Yamato and Stutters. What did BC say about Stutters again? He already said that he didn't know where Stutters stood until Shiao flipped. Earlier in the game, he indicated that he suspected both Shiao and Clarity, yet surprisingly Shiao disappeared from his to be shot list. BC has not forgotten about him clearly since he mentions that Shiao is still alive, yet he wants to kill Stutters for derailing a lynch from a person he thought was scum to a person he knows is scum. Other than that, the only reason he pushes Stutters is inactivity. Yet it's his second strongest suspect? Why? And where did Mr. CC go in all of this? Nowhere does BC explain that read evolving. Where did Yamato go? Why are Hopeless and me suddenly on the list? It looks like he has 6 players on a list and just randomly RNGs which one he mentions next. No justification, no reason why Yamato is missing and why myself or hopeless is suddenly on the list. What's also interesting is his soft pushing of Palmar. He mentions Palmar a lot in his filter and argues with him a bit, but he never actually pushes for his lynch. It's the same in this post. "Until Palmar does more than be a massive troll, hes on there as well." This is not a push by any means, it just provides an easy scapegoat later. "Look, I did accuse him!" "Please don't kill my scumbuddy jailer yet, I'd like to roleblock another detective and lynch one before we do that." So just a while back Palmar was scum until he stopped trolling, and now he's scum or 3p for sure. BC knew Palmar wasn't going to change, he just wanted some time before he actually called him scum. Not that he actually pushes for anyone, mind you. He just continues to spend his time defending himself and talking setup/mechanics rather than actually pushing anyone. A trend he has had the entire game. BC then goes into inactivity and just posts a bunch of oneliner replies to questions without any real content or purpose. There's no force behind anything. He's playing meek. Oh yeah, remember about Yamato being 100% scum? So he's only 80% sure of Yamato being scum now. Given that he named 4 names earlier and Yamato wasn't one of them anymore (me, Hopeless, Stutters and Palmar), that must mean he was more than 80% sure on the four of us. Strange given there are only 2 scum players left. HE'S SO CERTAIN YET HE'S NOT PUSHING ANYONE STRONGLY, HE'S JUST ANSWERING RANDOM QUESTIONS ABOUT PLAYERS Then there's this. OO already mentioned why this was noteworthy, but I'll post it again. Yamato and Palmar probably made the worst posts in the game according to BC, yet he just said the people who make the dumbest posts are town. That's pretty... interesting. This game, Palmar is pretty much playing lynchbait for the heck of it, and it's plain as day to see. However, he has a reputation as a vet. The two combined makes it easy for people to push him. Given most of the vets are still alive, it's easy for BC to push into him. A logical choice that, once again, follows town sentiment. Tl;dr 1. BC has tunneled Yamato from his first post, yet never pushed him strongly. 2. BC's reads barely evolve and when they do, they're never/poorly explained. 3. BC treated the people that flipped scum very differently from the people that haven't, being far more willing to push them when town sentiment shifts. 4. BC's case on Yamato was godawful and looked more like trying to contribute than anything else. No conviction. 5. BC has followed town sentiment to the T. 6. BC spends more time answering random questions than actually pushing his candidates. 7. BC doesn't give a shit about who actually gets lynched, as long as he doesn't look suspicious. The cobbler is scum. It is time for the cobbler to get cobbled to death. ##Unvote ##Vote Bloodyc0bbler + Show Spoiler + He was town Yeah but you bad bro | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:56 Superbia wrote: I feel his ego is already drastically reduced. x; Well, I faked ego to gain influence. It worked. Jean smart. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 05:58 Damdred wrote: And honestly idk how you can forget about damdred when 1) since night I have been the most talked about person 2) Been in jeans Lynch pool for awhile but when he was explaining. His reads again he forgot to put me in. Which is weird. 3) led the vote for a good portion of the day 4) talked the living hell out of the thread Sometimes I just forget things. Also, I've been busy with real life and defending myself against baddies, so there's that. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
No idea if I'll follow through on it. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On June 30 2016 21:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So what you're saying is you don't believe I can have as strong a townread on Damdred as I say, therefore I must have TMI? I guess that's a roundabout compliment in a way. I know you despise meta, but take a little look into my previously played games, please. I have never ever tried this hard as mafia under suspicion, let ALONE when the rest of my team died early. If I was in a team with MD and EC (and I mean no offense to them) I would've just given up on D1 and let the lynch wash over me. I would not end up having the longest filter in the game. I have probably written more words than you. I just consolidate my posts. There's probably a way to figure that out. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
I'm back to tictock is mafia | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 00:38 Damdred wrote: Jean could you tell me what your one reason for wanting to tr ec was? You said you would talk about it during the night but never did Also why did you move moosey from your ignore list to suddenly Lynch moose last second? His play really hadn't changed much over the day I think. Yes, the one reason to think EC was town was that he tried to get the presidency. In hindsight he didn't really push for it and thus I should have been far more suspicious of him, but at the time I was looking for anything, even flimsy, to help sort people into categories. I think I talked about it somewhere in my filter that scum almost never succeed or even genuinely try to win mayoral elections. It's almost always (as this game is a good proof of) townies. Regarding Moosey, he hadn't been posting while I was around, which sort of faded in my eyes how blatantly trolly and scum-favored his posting direction was. When he came back and started doing it right in front of me I made the logical choice to go after him, I explained it in my post where I announced him as my lynch target. Essentially, and as evidenced, he was objectively the most scummy player in the thread (could be proven to be playing with a scum agenda), but in my subjective opinion he wasn't the most scummy at the time. My own posting both at the time of announcing him as a lynch target, and prior to his flip, show the thought progression I had. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 05:22 Damdred wrote: Idk I know you say your progression on moosey, but here you have it that you don't think moose is mafia. You also think super is the most guaranteed mafia at the time of the Lynch. Can you explain why you lynched moose over super exactly and why you didn't think he was scum at the end? A sort of horrid question but just go with it for now. I don't know how to make it any more clear to you to be honest. At the time, I felt superbia was genuinely scummy, ie: his posting felt off and I had convinced myself there were good reasons to think he's mafia. Regarding moosy, he was objectively scummy, but I subjectively thought he was just an asshole who was willingly playing against his win condition as town. That being said, I was not certain on superbia, or anyone else really at that point, so I just lynched the player who SHOULD flip mafia, despite my own personal reservations that me might just be anti-town townie. Do you understand the difference between objective and subjective scummyness? Moosy, in my opinion, was mafia because he played in a way that was only beneficial if he is mafia. Thus if we assume everyone plays to win, he has to be mafia because there is no town reason for him to do what he did. Also, the hedging was pretty strong, it's always good to hedge so you can claim to be right later Either I'm "right" and i lynch mafia, or I'm "right" and lynch a townie who should have been lynched anyway for playing like mafia. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
To me the current situation is something like Artanis, Damdred, Jean, GlowingBear, Skynx, Jealous town Superbia probably town, but less sure Tumblewood probably town, but less sure Tictock most likely scum. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Because his effort level this night has been extremely high when it doesn't have to be. In addition, his questions about me feel very "right". He's not being superficial or difficult, he's genuinely asking very pointed questions (like the one about me saying there is a reason to townread EC that I didn't want to talk about at the time). It's difficult (but of course not impossible) to come up with that as mafia. I get the feeling he actually wants to figure the game out. Also, it's fucking damdred, I always think he's mafia and I'm (almost) always wrong. But lynching him is fun though, so it's fine. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 05:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm pretty sure JVJ is HF btw. Ego, quality of play and playfulness in general fit, plus going into a game as a smurf with an idea like he had at the start here feels a lot like him. Also also Poland please. Please, I know we've had our differences but no need to be rude. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 05:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Unless you were just making the joke that claiming you're HF is rude in itself, in which case if wrong I do profusely apologize thanks, feels better. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Poe/still scummy If he flips scum superbia is worst player for not just sticking with the tracker claim. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 06:54 Tictock wrote: My god you Yo-Yo back and forth on me. Bring it. No real reason to bring anything, just explain in detail who is mafia if you're not it? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 07:16 Tictock wrote: Tumble has been the weakest of my townreads and is mostly just floating this game. But yea mostly PoE. And no, I'm kinda coming around on Jean probably just being town. he really doesn't have to do this... | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 13:04 Tictock wrote: No offense to Moosy... But you are giving his "sacrificial" play too much credit and planning. Lol Yes. There very much exists the chance moosy is just... special | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Tumblewood is meh, so whatever. Tictock doesn't really sound like mafia yet. I'm also hoping to clear one of the potentially suspicious people with a blue claim so there's that. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 20:13 Jealous wrote: The reasons as to why pardon will be used are not mathematically relevant, it's the fact that to prepare for all possible scenarios one needs to examine both whether it does or does not happen, whether Jean is scum or not scum. As you said, Jean cannot be in the final 3. My argument is that he cannot be in the final 4, either. This is a dumb discussion and you should reconsider if you actually think this. Essentially you're telling the scum "hey, if you get a mislynch today, you'll get a free extra one tomorrow!" We're not going to default lynch, we're going to keep lynching the most scummy people until the game ends. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 20:52 Jealous wrote: True, especially the last bit. However, being short-sighted has already cost us. I don't think it's bad practice to map all the possible roads this game can take. When did being short-sighted cost us? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 01 2016 21:06 Jealous wrote: Losing Chezinu because of what was effectively a policy lynch. See I disagree. I don't think it was a policy lynch. At the time I had more reason to believe he's scum than anyone else in the game. On the other hand, as admitted back on day 1, I have a particular weak spot in reading trolls, so perhaps people who know how to understand and figure out trolls considered it a policy lynch. Where do you stand today? | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 02 2016 03:37 Damdred wrote: Nah super unlikely Basically if you give bodyguard to a town and both mayor and pardoner are town already mafia is forced to shoot into like 7 people n1. Throw in a medic save and mafia is highly behind already. It just isn't balanced IMO, I mean you do have idiot medic moves but n1 qt should of been saved if we have a medic or jk. Also GB I think you should claim who the bg is like 5 seconds before eon if we don't hit mafia today, agree or disagree? Mafia can contest all three roles. If they fail to get mayor pardoner and bg they should be behind | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 02 2016 03:37 Damdred wrote: Nah super unlikely Basically if you give bodyguard to a town and both mayor and pardoner are town already mafia is forced to shoot into like 7 people n1. Throw in a medic save and mafia is highly behind already. It just isn't balanced IMO, I mean you do have idiot medic moves but n1 qt should of been saved if we have a medic or jk. Also GB I think you should claim who the bg is like 5 seconds before eon if we don't hit mafia today, agree or disagree? As of today I'm basically sure Damdred is my #1 townread. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
JVJ Damdred GB Jealous Townie: Superbia Skynx Flip flop material: tictock tumblewood | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 02 2016 05:35 GlowingBear wrote: I think JVJ's flip is really necessary now Sorry JVJ Only if you explain why I am mafia. So no, I'm not going to accept being lynched now, or at any point in the game. Anyone who thinks I should be "killed before lylo" or any other bullshit fear tactic is wrong. We should ALWAYS lynch the most scummy player in the thread, and that is never going to be me. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 02 2016 06:37 GlowingBear wrote: Well With Tumblewood and Skynx votes, I would be the mayor. I was going to lynch their rolecop. So it is very unlikely that them both are mafia. It is more likely that they are town. I think you're vastly overestimating the importance of a rolecop. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
Collectively town played amazing. We all had bits where we were wrong and bits where we were right. But effort level and care remained high throughout. Thanks hosts for a great game. | ||
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Jean Valjean
France216 Posts
On July 03 2016 02:51 Shapelog wrote: Who is Jean btw? If you ever find out, do NOT tell Inspector Javert | ||
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