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Or rather, he has made a ton of posts, most of which deal with his own ability play the game. Do you think it's reasonable for him to just stall, stall, stall as mafia? Is he smart/dumb enough to do that correctly (depending on how functional the town is, it can either be a smart or a dumb move).
Also you, just like Artanis, have put yourself in a situation where you just townread everyone except for a few afk players.
As with Artanis, you are another player that has no excuse to scumread me at present, so I'll do you the favor of adding myself to your townlist. This means you're townreading the following people:
Artanis
Damdred
Chez
Tumble
Superbia
Jean
QT
In addition, you townread GB and I'm going to throw in Skynx as an unlikely mafia, although feel free to disagree with me on that.
That's 9/13 players already in your town circle, and your lynch list looks something like this:
Moosy
Jealous
Tictock
emperorchampion
So, trolls, new players, low content people and sure, tictock. Maybe add Skynx to that list?
Look over your own reads again and think, do you believe this is the most reasonable solution to the game Damdred?
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On June 26 2016 23:59 Damdred wrote:
I explained it a little bit previously, if it was just activity I would probably give him another day.
Its mainly that one post describing the qt v art fight as town v town. Its his only contribution and it doesn't make sense to me coming from his position of not knowing art. And honestly art came off a little worse than qt in that exchange.
So not sure why he would think that it just feels like Tmi to me.
I actually kind of agree, he was specifically asked that and conjured up an answer that was surprisingly thought out given the fact that everything else in his filter has basically been him excusing himself from playing. Not necessarily the TMI part, but rather just the appearance of it.
Maybe the trick just to ask him...
Hey Jealous, what do you think of my spat with Artanis? And explain your thoughts on Tictock.
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On June 27 2016 00:08 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 00:06 Jean Valjean wrote:
Or rather, he has made a ton of posts, most of which deal with his own ability play the game. Do you think it's reasonable for him to just stall, stall, stall as mafia? Is he smart/dumb enough to do that correctly (depending on how functional the town is, it can either be a smart or a dumb move).
Also you, just like Artanis, have put yourself in a situation where you just townread everyone except for a few afk players.
As with Artanis, you are another player that has no excuse to scumread me at present, so I'll do you the favor of adding myself to your townlist. This means you're townreading the following people:
Artanis
Damdred
Chez
Tumble
Superbia
Jean
QT
In addition, you townread GB and I'm going to throw in Skynx as an unlikely mafia, although feel free to disagree with me on that.
That's 9/13 players already in your town circle, and your lynch list looks something like this:
Moosy
Jealous
Tictock
emperorchampion
So, trolls, new players, low content people and sure, tictock. Maybe add Skynx to that list?
Look over your own reads again and think, do you believe this is the most reasonable solution to the game Damdred? What are YOUR reads?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=25807942
No one in the game has better documented their reads than have I. This post by you is very strange GB.
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On June 27 2016 00:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 00:14 Superbia wrote:On June 27 2016 00:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 27 2016 00:10 Superbia wrote:On June 27 2016 00:04 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'm very tired of everyone tunneling onto me for poor reasoning and twisting everything I say to fit the view that they've already created on me and never reconsider. Just lynch me D1 so that you can get to actually finding mafia.
I'd advise looking into TT and the people who have been fairly absent. Maaybe Superbia. As for Jean, I've already told you exactly why I think TT is mafia.
##Vote Jean Valjean You want to put the person in power who wants to kill you? .. seriously? Yeah. Then he can stop tunneling me and I can get out of the game where half the game is tunneling me, forcing them to actually hunt for scum. Why do you want to put the person in power who is at best wrong? I think he's likely town and if he is, mafia will likely want to kill him.
This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words, but I'm also perceptive enough to understand my potential weakness.
I would love if you could play around the tunneling part. The one thing I can ask of you is that you clearly indicate your number one scumread (ticktock, I suppose?) and that you build a good, readable case on him that can be reposted and referenced easily farther down the line in the game.
The best case scenario is that your case proves you're not mafia and you avoid the lynch, but a close alternative is that even if myself, and a number of other players you think are town, are completely wrong on you and you flip town, you have left something that we can use in the following days to right the ship. No matter if you get lynched you still have a responsibility to try to win the game for your faction, and if your faction is town, you should work on creating a case that town can get behind, either today, or the following days after you're gone.
My weakness is that I am not always right, I can be wrong, and it can be very difficult to be wrong for such a strong leader as myself, so I need other players to keep me in check.
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On June 27 2016 00:30 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 00:29 GlowingBear wrote:On June 27 2016 00:26 Superbia wrote:On June 27 2016 00:24 GlowingBear wrote:
Superbia, what are your reads? Unsure on Damdred. Very unsure on Art given his last few posts, though I'm prone to stick with my earlier read on him (which is town). By proxy I'm also iffy on TT. He has been more aggro this game than I expect from him d1. Outside of those interesting players I would say: Moosy should die. EC should die. Ok but I need townreads We have to decide the mayor and the pardonner Mayor = me. Pardonner can be tumble or jean.
I'm willing to support other people than myself for the mayoral position, but you're not one of them. You have been excruciatingly opaque with your reads this game and I think it's very important the mayor is someone who is transparent. I strongly oppose your bid to become the mayor.
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On June 27 2016 02:04 Tumblewood wrote:ok holy shit tt is scum. Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 18:36 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 17:58 Superbia wrote:On June 26 2016 11:47 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 07:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Absolutely 100% confirmed town
Chezinu
Town
Damdred
Skynx
Tumblewood
Quicktwist
Townish
Subparbia
-power gap-
Emperorarechampion
Null
GlowingBear
Jealous
MoosyDoosy
Mildly leaning mafia
Jean Valjean
Lean mafia
Ticktock Lol, total 180 on QT. Now I'm your main scumread kus I called you and Damdred boring. Good shit. TT. srsly. Did you not read the thread at all? x: I barely skimmed before and I knew art 180d on QT like 20hrs before he made that list. Are you not paying any attention to your scumreads? Yea I saw him drop his scumread, but putting QT in his top 4 town now? That's a pretty big swing in thinking. Also think his read on me is mostly OMGUS and he's throwing out weak meta to try and cover it. - scumreading art for changing his read too fast. pls that's town if anything. - stupid misattribution of art's push Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 18:51 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 18:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 26 2016 18:36 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 17:58 Superbia wrote:On June 26 2016 11:47 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 07:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Absolutely 100% confirmed town
Chezinu
Town
Damdred
Skynx
Tumblewood
Quicktwist
Townish
Subparbia
-power gap-
Emperorarechampion
Null
GlowingBear
Jealous
MoosyDoosy
Mildly leaning mafia
Jean Valjean
Lean mafia
Ticktock Lol, total 180 on QT. Now I'm your main scumread kus I called you and Damdred boring. Good shit. TT. srsly. Did you not read the thread at all? x: I barely skimmed before and I knew art 180d on QT like 20hrs before he made that list. Are you not paying any attention to your scumreads? Yea I saw him drop his scumread, but putting QT in his top 4 town now? That's a pretty big swing in thinking. Also think his read on me is mostly OMGUS and he's throwing out weak meta to try and cover it. Yeah no. If anything, I tend to reverse OMGUS more than anything since I figure mafia is unlikely to go after me as I'm difficult to lynch. This game however, too many people have so I've softened that up a little. I think there's a good chance you're mafia and waivering it away as an OMGUS read doesn't really negate that in the slightest. Well I'm gunna take your word about your mafia play with a grain of salt, I think I've only played a game or two with you as town. Eh I call it as I see it, you dropped your read on QT then quoted a post of mine saying you didn't like it. Then you brought up some weak meta about my town game being "interesting" and bam I'm your top scum read (though you seemed more interested questioning Jean). Looks like you're early read got squashed by thread sentiment so you went looking for new people to push. - narrative - narrative - more narrative Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 19:21 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 19:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 26 2016 19:09 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 19:00 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 26 2016 18:54 Tictock wrote:On June 26 2016 18:44 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I also have a natural bias against OMGUSing because I know people tend to view scumreading someone that suspects you as such so I tend to focus on other people. It's kinda funny/stupid but it's true. So then maybe you should explain your read on me a little better. You've been a complete non-factor throughout the game, mostly just echoing sentiments of others. Your focus point has been on things other than reads in the early game when you did have time, such as plans on mayor/pardoner. You also seem very stuck in your reads, no fluidity at all and call me out for changing my reads as if it were a scum factor, and don't really seem to be attempting to unearth people's alignments. Do you think this is a scum trait in general or specific to me? Calling me a non-factor is just hurtful  + Show Spoiler +and not particularly accurate imo I am kinda holding back on my reads some, I can agree that can be kinda scummy. Prob just gunna have to deal with it though. I think it is true in general. I also think it's true for you in the sense that you're a lot more interesting when you're town than what's currently going on. Yea see this just shows you have no real understanding of my meta... And you're wrong, I'm pretty darned interesting. I know... my mom told me. impressively manages to dismiss art's read entirely without a real counter, just "you don't know me." basically I don't see why tt would make these cases as town... they're so far-fetched and only really make sense as a justification rather than a reason.
This is actually not a bad summary.
I will revisit my own interpretation of Ticktock, until then he should know that he is on notice to be lynched if his posting doesn't improve greatly in the next few hours.
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The following is actually a very well thought out post. I am completely removing Jealous from the table as a potential lynch candidate day 1. This doesn't of course mean he is a lock townread forever, but the thought process he shows here, while occasionally slightly flawed (I'll respond to specifics later in this post), means he's actually thinking about the game in a very strategic kind of way.
The reason I am responding to this post in detail is that I believe it is good form to respond to people who actually put thought into the way they play the game. I'm hoping to win Jealous over as an ally in the coming days.
On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 00:08 Jean Valjean wrote:On June 26 2016 23:59 Damdred wrote:
I explained it a little bit previously, if it was just activity I would probably give him another day.
Its mainly that one post describing the qt v art fight as town v town. Its his only contribution and it doesn't make sense to me coming from his position of not knowing art. And honestly art came off a little worse than qt in that exchange.
So not sure why he would think that it just feels like Tmi to me. I actually kind of agree, he was specifically asked that and conjured up an answer that was surprisingly thought out given the fact that everything else in his filter has basically been him excusing himself from playing. Not necessarily the TMI part, but rather just the appearance of it. Maybe the trick just to ask him... Hey Jealous, what do you think of my spat with Artanis? And explain your thoughts on Tictock. I was already typing this out as I was working through the thread, so I will use this as an answer: Having read the past few pages that were largely Jean Vanjean pushing Artanis, playing petty games and platforming for presidency, I have to say that he has left a foul taste in my mouth. While I respect his use of language and mild tone, I have to say that he is trying too hard to push the notion that he is "smart" and that therefore the best choice for mayor. Scum can be smart too, and I think a smart scum would follow along the same lines that Jean is doing:
You are entirely correct. The point is, anyone running for presidency is going to need to make an impression on town. I decided that because I had more time than expected today, I would push for the spot (also, the other options mostly sucked). If I do not push the idea that I'm a strong candidate, there is no chance for me to succeed. I have no meta, no name recognition, nothing to go on except what I say and do this game. I needed, more than anyone else, to push myself ahead of the group.
The important part, and the part you must not miss, is that all this is true whatever my alignment is. Some people have overestimated me being town on this basis, and you seem to overestimate me being scum. The important part is you cannot find my alignment just based on this, you need to actually look at my reads and my insights, rather than my words and my platform, to deduce my alignment.
On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote:
1. Lay relatively low at first and not draw much suspicion in either direction while the thread is in a tumultuous Day 1 state, Artanis fighting QT, lots of speculation going in every direction, etc.
Yes, but again, so would someone who is simply afk as town. I had real life obligations yesterday and was unable to participate much. I have had more time than expected today, which has been great.
On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote:
2. a. Push a target that is already under pressure/suspicion from others using vague meta reads (paraphrasing what Artanis said, "If I had a dollar for every time someone scumread me for playing worse than they expect me to,").
b. Play word/mind games (and perhaps a little bit of fear tactics) to force that target to say things that Jean wants said from another mouth, giving him added external validity. "This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words." - Jean
c. Essentially bullying him into voting for him as president.
Yes, I'm good at arguing and I can push my ideas heavily when needed. But it is extremely difficult to do what I'm doing as mafia. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just very difficult and I don't think many scum players are capable of doing it.
Also, the reason I tend to attack people based on some expectation of their play, is that it's a cleverly aggressive way to point out something they did wrong. If I put a person in a position with limited options, for example when I say Artanis is good enough to townread me and if he doesn't he must be mafia, it is more likely the person screws up. It's simply an interrogation tactic.
Artanis might still be mafia but I feel far less certain than before. I'm not a huge fan of him giving up because I know Artanis is a generally jolly and relaxed, but I guess it doesn't necessarily make him mafia. His mafia game is more trolly than resigned, and there is a very real chance his frustration with being pushed is actually real.
I don't know right now and I'm sort of waffling on lynching Artanis.
On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote:
3. Build a stronger platform for a presidential candidacy than any that has been posted so far, using big words and nice formatting to please the eye and make the reader complacently agree with the validity of his statements, in what could be considered a "last push" because of the timing (12 hours before EoD as opposed to any time prior).
I simply do that for readability and transparency. I think, if anything, the conciseness of my posts should indicate that at least if I'm mafia, I'm not using the tactic of shitting up the thread with useless posts.
On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote:
I find the fact that he has garnered a fair share of support and relatively little suspicion to be very alarming. Is everyone going for the textbook "he is active and pushing someone, so can't be scum?" I believe that can backfire terribly in a game such as this where that modus operandi would be an effective strategy for Mafia to get into a position of power and make the game much harder for Town to win.
There have been four people whose names have been tossed around/who have been voted for/have pushed for presidency, from what I've read so far (I still have to go back to the early pages). In most recent pages, GlowingBear has been making some weak pushes for it, going by the logic of "Why SHOULDN'T I be President?" as opposed to "Here is why I SHOULD be President," which I don't like either.
In short, I think that between those people (Superbia, Jean, GB, and one other person I am forgetting at the moment) there must be a scum. It is THE play of the game in this format, and for scum to sit back and allow Town to freely elect Town for both positions would be simply poor play. I find that to be less likely than scum being one of the power candidates right now.
I have support because I am far better than all the alternatives. No, I am not a player you can simply look at and your eyes are filled with a neon-green light. Due to the fact that I'm articulate, people tend to assume I am capable of better scumplay than I really am. But in general the simple solutions tend to be good, which is why in most people's mind, the simple solution that I'm trying in an extremely townie way, is that I'm town. I'm not saying you should not watch out for tryhard scum, it's just that you should also not forget what is most likely in a given situation.
I agree scum should not let town grab the power positions, but experience has taught me that for the most part, scum is extremely bad at pushing for these positions. I think it happens very rarely that mafia actually gets their candidate voted into power, it's just too much effort and very difficult to do.
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On June 27 2016 02:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 21:37 Jean Valjean wrote:On June 26 2016 21:19 Superbia wrote:On June 26 2016 20:30 Jean Valjean wrote:On June 26 2016 20:28 Superbia wrote:On June 26 2016 20:25 Jean Valjean wrote:On June 26 2016 20:20 Superbia wrote:Man, your read on me is superweak. Hence, your primary category is "Null". If you would like for me to change my read on you, start finding mafia and you shall be swiftly rewarded. Go through someone's filter, build a case. You're not pushing anyone, you're not doing anything decisive. Even if I'm completely wrong on Artanis, I'm building a case, presenting evidence and pushing things forward in a way that will help the game. You're at best on the sidelines asking marginally relevant questions and providing uninteresting oneliners about people's alignment I barely even know who you think is mafia or who you want to lynch, yet you're a candidate for the mayoral office? How do you expect to win votes like that? Convince me on something, hell convince me Artanis is town, and I'll gladly throw my vote behind you. But as of now you deserve very little. You have 5 pages of filter and I can't even remember you calling anyone strongly mafia. By the way you talked about me suggests that you know my meta. Tell me, is any of what you have said reminiscent of how I play town? x; I do not care how you play town. I care about how I want you to play town and how I know you're capable of playing town. I want you to summarize, be decisive and push not because I think that's your town meta, but because I think that is the best way you can be useful to the game if you are indeed town. There's very few things I care less about than your own sense of "my town meta". Can I conclude from this is that you think I'm town? I'm basically asking you "how are you evaluating my alignment?" and you're answering with "this is how I want you to play". That is because I cannot accurately evaluate your alignment until you've provided me with material to work with. No I not think you're town, but I'm also not sold on you being mafia. If your contributions remain to just not do anything and not commit to figuring out the game, then I will be forced to make the call based on more vague evidence. So yes, currently i'm judging some kind of a vague idea of how smart, sophisticated and analytical I think you can be against what is the reality this game. It's less about tone or meta, and more about just the very content of your posts, and the thought process behind them. Currently I see a player I consider smart and definitely capable of being useful wasting that talent and making no conclusions from it. If that is all I get from you, so be it. If I am wrong because you simply wanted to keep intact some bullshit meta, then so be it too. See, I know the TL meta lets people get away with being lazy, useless and bad. But I'm not here to adhere to anyone else's meta, I'm building my own. I'm getting away with it! And you said you'd leave me alone which means you're letting me get away with it!
It's not night yet. Don't assume you'll wake up after the night.
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On June 27 2016 02:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:
superbia if you promise to kill me if you're mayor i will vote for you
This trolling is over the top.
There exists no explanation as town for this behavior from Moosy, there is no situation where his current tactics are advantageous.
There does exist a situation where his behavior makes sense as mafia. He might be going for an approach and hoping people will label him "too scummy to be scum".
So the options are two:
a) He is actually mafia, and his tactic is to be too scummy to be scum
b) He is town and actively playing against his win condition
The problem is, he is sufficiently bad/selfish for b) to be an option.
That being said, Moosy, with the continuation of his worthless trolling is now my current lynch candidate on Day 1. At worst we kill a player who is actively trying to win the game for mafia, at best, we kill mafia.
MoosyDoosy is now my preferred lynch target
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Superbia is slipping farther into mafia territory while he continues being utterly pointless.
As just a random thought, apparently Jealous isn't aware that GlowingBear claimed a blue role. This doesn't mean much, but it means it's slightly less likely they're both mafia, and it's a weird thing to miss if you're mafia. But who knows. I'm not lynching Jealous any time soon anyway, I think.
As much as I hate having to do it, I'm lynching Moosy if I become the mayor. I have no reason to think he flips mafia except the one I gave earlier about how he should be one based on logic. The problem is Moosy is a very selfish person and completely willing to ruin the fun of 13 people just so he can have his own fun. He doesn't try to win games as town, he is more interested in entertaining himself.
We need to lynch him. It's not a great lynch, it's not one that's particularly likely to get us mafia. I hope he gets banned after literally playing against his win condition this game.
So that's where I am at.
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A quick note, even if I try to stay logical at all times, I'll allow myself this one tinfoil-y theory.
I don't particularly think GlowingBear is very towny. I feel like his early game was lackluster, and now as a claimed blue his play lacks a certain... aggressiveness (meaning, I'm surprised he's not yelling in all caps at the top of his lungs at people for being stupid enough to actually make him earn the mayor title when he's a claimed blue).
He is very measured, says little, and seems to not be very passionate, when most people would be getting pretty annoyed at having to compete with some random smurf for the mayor title.
I'm not lynching him, or anything like that, I just want the notion out there.
I am very disappointed in myself to make moosy my primary lynch, it is not a good lynch and it is basically a fear lynch. But I don't think I can allow that question to remain in the game.
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On June 27 2016 05:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I don't want emperor to get lynched I don't think. Pretty sure he's one of the first to cast doubt on Jean and I have a hard time seeing newbie scum do that.
This is a valid point, although his casting doubt on me was never followed up on, nor was it particularly well aimed. But yes, I had the same thought earlier.
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On June 27 2016 05:54 Damdred wrote:
Lynch Tt Jean blah
No, if I'm lynching scum instead of baddies, I'll be killing superbia I think
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On June 27 2016 05:58 Superbia wrote:
Literally -> I think moosy is scum. I have been pushing on moosy beginning of d1 -> I think super is scum.
This is the guy you all want as pres.
I think you're mafia.
I don't think moosy is mafia.
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On June 27 2016 05:58 Superbia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 05:58 Jean Valjean wrote:On June 27 2016 05:58 Superbia wrote:
Literally -> I think moosy is scum. I have been pushing on moosy beginning of d1 -> I think super is scum.
This is the guy you all want as pres. I think you're mafia. I don't think moosy is mafia. Then lynch me and agree to get lynched tomorrow. I fucking dare you.
That's completely retarded bro. Do you think I'm mafia?
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Superbia is next lynch. Let's keep going.
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This makes me glad for so many reasons. I was so ready to be disappointed and frustrated.
1) It means I don't have to hate Moosy as much. While his strategy was bad, at least he had a strategy. It wasn't completely retarded, because many people would be tempted to not kill according to policy/organization and instead fall back on emotion. I and many others thought that Moosy was quite possibly town despite logically his play only making sense from a mafia perspective.
2) Organized play paid off. Doing the objectively right thing paid off. I hate it when you get punished for killing people who should be killed because they decided to be funny as town and troll. I did the objectively and mechanically right thing without worrying too much about some gut feelings and it worked. It's a victory for correct play on TL Mafia.
3) Got'em boys
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Don't joke guys, I know you just voted for me because of my masculine alpha status. It's instinctive, not logical. You're drawn to power.
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I changed my mind. I'm lynching GlowingBear tomorrow instead of Superbia.
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On June 27 2016 17:22 Superbia wrote:
The reality is that if Jean genuinely considered lynching me there then the game was on the edge of being lost for no real reason and it's a good part of the reason why I did not want him to be in any position of power (personally I also despise(d) his playing style and the fact that it paid off).
I love the doom and gloom predictions.
"We are literally on the verge of losing the game because the town hero briefly considered lynching me before promptly lynching mafia!!!"
Get a grip son. You have plenty of time to convince people you're not mafia. I have repeatedly explained what you should be doing, and now that I'm in a position to enforce my threats I suggest you start paying attention.
I have an idea on what is the best way for town to play mafia. I'm only interested in winning the game. I'm not interested in people sticking to their meta or claiming "this is just how I play". Those are not valid arguments. You play how the town wants you to play, because that is the only way you play to win. I have managed to bring town to my cause and I'm sure most people agree that my way is genuinely helping this town get organized and strong.
I do not think you're an asshole superbia, I have no faith that you'll allow yourself to be lynched to "stick it to the man" if you're town. So I double down on my fairly reasonable request that you stop being a stubborn asshole and genuinely lay out your cases on the people you think are mafia. Write a single post, include the quotes and links you think are needed to validate your case and let the rest of us objectively judge your contributions.
I'm a very reasonable person and I change my mind based on evidence. Notice that I didn't end up killing my early tunnel of Artanis, because I no longer felt it was the best lynch possible. I have no ulterior motive other than winning this game for town, and sometimes I need to whip town into shape to get things done.
In other TL Mafia towns, spamming oneliners, taking no responsibility and playing to some awful "meta" is acceptable. In my town, we're not doing that, and we're going to reward this town with a win.
A goddamn win.
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EPT
