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one thing we have certainly established so far is that if FreezingFoot is town, his opinions are not worth listening to.
So far his defense has been completely lackluster and I don't need his identity to know that he's probably not going to have very useful opinions if he is town.
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On June 08 2015 09:05 Kickstart wrote:Also, while you try to say otherwise, you are clearly trying to subtly push the idea that him withholding his identity is anti town behavior when it isn't. Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:42 Kickstart wrote:
It is helpful by way of making a point. It is not helpful in so far as having the question answered because you ask the question knowing it won't be answered. If he was interested in displaying his identity he would not be in a disguise. It does not take a wise man to posit your question. you apparently don't understand. It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town.So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game. Him refusing to give his identity was decided before his alignment was known, therefor it can not be purposely anti-town for him, it isn't indicative of anything. You are in effect saying "if he votes he is anti-town" which is ludicrous. You do have a point in saying that a smurf can be harmful to town, but again, this does not give us any indication of the smurfs alignment.
You consider someone taking a mislynch over revealing their identity to be town-favored?
Are you serious?
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On June 08 2015 09:09 yamato77 wrote:
If this game were a DotA game I'd be picking Terrorblade right about now.
talk to me, yo.
tell me what you think about, specifically:
1. FreezingFoot's entrance into the game
2. FreezingFoot's response to my vote
3. Kickstart
4. Anyone else who has posted so far
5. Who you think has the potential to have good opinions
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the pressure is not preplanned, btw.
I did not read the playerlist before signing up
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had it been preplanned I certainly would have put more effort into my first post. I tend to put a lot of effort into things I plan, as anyone who has played with me before would know (not that many of you would)
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On June 08 2015 09:14 Kickstart wrote:Bugs is also quick to say that he is about to ignore me and that FreezingFoot is not worth listening to. Interesting. Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:06 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 09:05 Kickstart wrote:Also, while you try to say otherwise, you are clearly trying to subtly push the idea that him withholding his identity is anti town behavior when it isn't. On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:42 Kickstart wrote:
It is helpful by way of making a point. It is not helpful in so far as having the question answered because you ask the question knowing it won't be answered. If he was interested in displaying his identity he would not be in a disguise. It does not take a wise man to posit your question. you apparently don't understand. It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town.So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game. Him refusing to give his identity was decided before his alignment was known, therefor it can not be purposely anti-town for him, it isn't indicative of anything. You are in effect saying "if he votes he is anti-town" which is ludicrous. You do have a point in saying that a smurf can be harmful to town, but again, this does not give us any indication of the smurfs alignment. You consider someone taking a mislynch over revealing their identity to be town-favored? Are you serious? I did not say or imply that. But again you are painting foot into a corner of no matter what he does he is scum. You are saying/implying that if he ever votes on someone who gets lynched and flips town without revealing who he is first he is anti-town. This is again ludicrous. But I've said enough on this topic, time for others to weigh in.
No, I'm not saying he's scum no matter what.
Given his responses I have no qualms calling him scum, which is in stark contrast to the fact that he thinks I am scum yet doesn't do jack about it.
You also did not even read what I said. I said he is anti town if HE IS ABOUT TO GET LYNCHED AND DOESN'T REVEAL HIS IDENTITY not if he votes someone. You need to slow down and read my posts more carefully before you start jumping to conclusions.
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On June 08 2015 09:20 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:17 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 09:14 Kickstart wrote:Bugs is also quick to say that he is about to ignore me and that FreezingFoot is not worth listening to. Interesting. On June 08 2015 09:06 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 09:05 Kickstart wrote:Also, while you try to say otherwise, you are clearly trying to subtly push the idea that him withholding his identity is anti town behavior when it isn't. On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:42 Kickstart wrote:
It is helpful by way of making a point. It is not helpful in so far as having the question answered because you ask the question knowing it won't be answered. If he was interested in displaying his identity he would not be in a disguise. It does not take a wise man to posit your question. you apparently don't understand. It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town.So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game. Him refusing to give his identity was decided before his alignment was known, therefor it can not be purposely anti-town for him, it isn't indicative of anything. You are in effect saying "if he votes he is anti-town" which is ludicrous. You do have a point in saying that a smurf can be harmful to town, but again, this does not give us any indication of the smurfs alignment. You consider someone taking a mislynch over revealing their identity to be town-favored? Are you serious? I did not say or imply that. But again you are painting foot into a corner of no matter what he does he is scum. You are saying/implying that if he ever votes on someone who gets lynched and flips town without revealing who he is first he is anti-town. This is again ludicrous. But I've said enough on this topic, time for others to weigh in. No, I'm not saying he's scum no matter what. Given his responses I have no qualms calling him scum, which is in stark contrast to the fact that he thinks I am scum yet doesn't do jack about it. You also did not even read what I said. I said he is anti town if HE IS ABOUT TO GET LYNCHED AND DOESN'T REVEAL HIS IDENTITY not if he votes someone. You need to slow down and read my posts more carefully before you start jumping to conclusions. I'd like you to go further in this. Why it is a scum behaviour NOT revealing his identity to SURVIVE?
Another person who can't read, but that's probably because you're scum
Let me break it down for anyone else who is reading this and is confused for whatever weird reason.
Player A is a smurf.
Player A takes five votes and is about to be lynched
Player A refuses to reveal his identity
Does that make Player A more or less likely to be scum?
Would you call it a bad play if Player A flipped town?
Why the hell would a town smurf not reveal themselves if they are about to get lynched? Townies should do anything in their power to prevent themselves from getting lynched, including revealing their identity and/or role. This is not necessarily true for scum because sometimes scum dying silently can be very helpful (often in the case of bussing this is true)
Disregarding all of this, the most damning thing about FreezingFoot right now is the refusal to come out and play. I do not get a sense of interest from FreezingFoot. This could simply come down to not knowing what to do, but that's hard to believe given that smurfs are generally experienced. Why is FreezingFoot painting me as scummy, but doing it in such a weak manner? Why was FreezingFoot's first post a request for witchcraft votes? Why does FreezingFoot not try to participate in discussion when there is plenty of discussion happening?
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and if it wasn't abundantly clear, I am inviting people to vote FreezingFoot to see what he does.
So far I am quite disappointed, I was hoping we'd have a good town smurf. Looks more like we have a crappy townie hiding behind a smurf or, in the best case scenario, a scum.
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On June 08 2015 09:34 FreezingFoot wrote:
I understood it correctly and I'm asking you to answer the exact question you are making.
Why is it scummy to not reveal the identity?
Sorry, don't say someone can't read when the problem is that you can't express yourself properly.
On June 08 2015 09:35 batsnacks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:34 FreezingFoot wrote:
I understood it correctly and I'm asking you to answer the exact question you are making.
Why is it scummy to not reveal the identity?
Sorry, don't say someone can't read when the problem is that you can't express yourself properly. Brother You're doing it wrong. Tell him why it's not scummy don't ask him why it is scummy or you'll be here all night.
It's scummy to ask questions under pressure instead of answering them.
If your only argument is that I cannot express myself properly, I invite you to vote your #1 scum read right now.
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On June 08 2015 09:00 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 08:52 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:44 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 08:35 LightningStrike wrote:
So Breshke any thoughts on Wherebugsgo right now? not really. Do you? On June 08 2015 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:31 Breshke wrote:Hi On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:28 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:26 LightningStrike wrote:
Hi guys I just got around to post and saw that Kickstart made a pact with the devil himself -_- Also I don't like Wherebugsgo voting FreezingFoot on the fact that FreezingFoot is a potential smurf.
@Kickstart thoughts on Wherebugsgo attacking FreezingFoot for being a smurf? Being a smurf is not alignment indicative. refusing to divulge relevant information sure is! identity is a large part of mafia. So do you think someone that has chosen to smurf is more likely to reveal who they are as town or mafia then? I think they would be more likely to reveal themselves as town. Granted, a smurf does not have to reveal themselves to be useful to town. I have smurfed myself, and the reason I do it is often quite simple-most people don't ask, and those who do can be placated by providing opinions and good reads. I have never had the luxury of rolling scum while smurfing, but if I ever did I do not doubt it would be one of the easiest ways to achieve victory. It is plainly obvious why smurfing is far more advantageous to the individual player than the team as a whole. The town only benefits if the player who is smurfing is a high caliber town player, rolls town, and escapes getting shot night 1 due to being a smurf. Otherwise, town stands to gain nothing from a mediocre townie or a bad townie smurfing other than a lack of insight into the player's behaviour. You should always hold smurfs to a higher standard because if they refuse to reveal their identity then you have no background to be working with. You have no expectation of their play, and an ordinarily good townie has rolled scum on a smurf you have no way of knowing. Yeah I understand this but that doesn't make not revealing who you are to be alignment indicative. If someone has chosen to smurf they have chosen pre game that they probably don't want to reveal who they are. I feel like saying, reveal yourself or get lynched, is a waste because it depends on the player on how they will act so you can't really get much from that. No it isn't. Read what I said again. The player does not necessarily have to reveal themselves. They just have to prove they can contribute. Asking that of scum will result in one or more of a.) More questions, b.) Nothing, c.) A bunch of filler nonsense, or d.) A response that takes a lot of effort. Asking a townie will often give us something useful. It may be the actual behaviour in the response itself (and so far actually his response has been a bit useful to me in getting a read on him) and it may be the subsequent posts as we get reads/thoughts on the game/thought process from the player. a.), b.) and c.) are all great, those types of responses would warrant more votes. d.) almost never happens because scum on this forum suck. But if it did, it would take a good amount of time for it to come out and it would probably be incredibly underwhelming from a scum.
Also to talk about this now instead of when mafia will be trying to hunt roles. I think it is best in at least the first phase that a lot of the chosen powers are information type roles specifically scrying
What?? Mafia are always hunting roles.
I also don't understand, is this supposed to be separate from the previous part of the post? Are you saying that the people who are voted to get roles choose investigative ones? It is literally impossible for them to hunt roles at the moment. Also yes that is what I am saying. I know a lot of people would be tempted to choose a vest but if we get three vests then it is a waste. What great response are you espexting from the smurf at this stage though? It feels like only A, B and C are the possible reactions at this stage I dont see how town or scum would give D
I'm not expecting a "great response"
I'm expecting something that makes sense when you qualify it from a town perspective. I find it hard to believe that a good townie who thinks that someone else (me) has entered the game in a poor fashion, as FrozenFoot described my entrance would be more forthcoming about their scum read on me.
I would expect a townie to use the opportunity to establish their own innocence, and if they truly believe that their accuser is scum, to put a vote on them and qualify it with good reasoning.
So far FrozenFoot's responses have not fallen into this category. He repeatedly calls me scum but does not vote me, repeatedly asks useless questions instead of responding to posts, and repeatedly cherry-picks the identity focus of my posts instead of responding to the rest of my arguments.
Me going after his identity was purely done to create discussion. We have a fairly elucidative response from FrozenFoot now, and as long as his responses are as consistently bad as they have been already I think FrozenFoot remains a good lynch candidate.
The only argument right now that would work in FrozenFoot's favor is that he is a bad townie. While this is not out of the question that FrozenFoot could potentially be smurfing to try a strategy or because he has a bad reputation as town, I would rather not assume someone is bad and leave them alive because of it.
I suppose it might be useful to know the answer to the following question:
FrozenFoot, we know you are smurfing because you don't want us to know your identity. But why? Why do you want us to not know your identity?
Smurfs should fully expect that other players in the game have only the current game to work with when attempting to identify them. I think it's fairly obvious already what we can expect.
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On June 08 2015 09:52 Bill Murray wrote:
This game has already ascended the RVS so I kind of feel bad promoting such a shitty play but I just can't help myself to stoop to that level sometimes.
There are a few important facts about this game
First, this is Reverse Mafia. The good guys are bad, and the bad guys are good.
I feel that this brings a couple things into the equation
1) It should make me a valuable player, considering we basically have a scum-style-town
2) scumhunting becomes a little different; people who are bad may have a superiority complex
I see you haven't changed much
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On June 08 2015 09:53 FreezingFoot wrote:
Dude, you are scum reading me for something that makes no one scum. I want to understand your thought process before forming a solid read on you. I am NOT answering a question YOU were supposed to clarify.
You're actually not answering anything, it literally does not matter what I ask of you.
I'll leave it up to the other players to decide what they think. I have no problems killing you regardless of alignment at this point, since if you are indeed town you are pretty much worthless.
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I think literally the only two things holding me back from thinking FrozenFoot is 100% scum are:
a.) He's literally the first person whose thread entrance I didn't like, and the first person I focused on. I will freely admit I am fairly tunneled, but given his responses I can live with this
b.) He might very well just be terrible at town, given that the vast majority of players (including myself) are terrible at catching scum
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On June 08 2015 10:01 batsnacks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:56 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 09:53 FreezingFoot wrote:
Dude, you are scum reading me for something that makes no one scum. I want to understand your thought process before forming a solid read on you. I am NOT answering a question YOU were supposed to clarify. I believe he is scumming you because you think someone is scum yet you arn't voting them. I think he's scumming him because instead of saying why not revealing isn't alignment indicative (it's not), he beat around the bush omgusing and asking questions. That's like a triple negative but I can't think of better words.
it's a combination of all of those things.
The worst by far is the accusation without a vote.
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going to also step out and go watch GoT but I would like to hear more from
yamato
Onegu
You're some of the only players I recognize in the list so I would appreciate knowing your opinions on the situation at hand
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On June 08 2015 11:19 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 11:11 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 10:21 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 09:58 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 09:03 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:56 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:42 Kickstart wrote:
It is helpful by way of making a point. It is not helpful in so far as having the question answered because you ask the question knowing it won't be answered. If he was interested in displaying his identity he would not be in a disguise. It does not take a wise man to posit your question. you apparently don't understand. It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town. So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game. I understand perfectly fine. No you don't, because you repeatedly have shown an inability to read what I am saying. I have said twice now that a smurf DOES NOT HAVE TO REVEAL THEMSELVES to satisfy my line of questioning. I simply want more out of this particular player. The responses I have received so far have been relatively lukewarm at best. However, I'm going to step it up a bit further.
I agree with your general premise but not your methodology. I have already said the important question in regards to our mystery man is whether he will use his identity to impart wisdom and knowledge or to sow confusion.
So did I, you just failed to read where I said it. Twice. Now three times, actually, and if you count this now, four.
You seem to miss the point that had he been interested in revealing his identity he would have done so. This goes back to my earlier question to you: Do you ask him to reveal his identity so that when he refuses you can accuse him? Why would a member of the coven do such a thing when they already know that the outcome will be that he does not revel himself.
Nope. You're not reading. Keep this up and I'm going to just ignore you.
Your argument so far has been that his withholding his identity is suspicious and his posting style thus far is suspicious. But if we do not know his identity how can we judge his posting style as indicative of anything?
All that said, our mystery man does need to choose his path. He either gives us wisdom and clarity or he sows confusion, and his fate is decided by which course of action he chooses to take.
Nope. I am saying you do not understand because, well...you don't. Let me clarify for you what has happened so far, and what is now worth discussing. On June 08 2015 08:21 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 08:15 wherebugsgo wrote:
anyway I am kinda sad I didn't roll scum this game but you guys should elevate me to Greater Demon status cause that'll be baller
also if you guys could fill me in on who I should expect to suck this game and when I should be disappointed for someone sucking that would be great Btw I don't like this opening. Sounds like a guy trying too hard do say "oh I'm town /sob", and asking people for names to work with. He doesn't like my opening. Sign #1 he doesn't like me. Cool. Let's skip over his direct response to my vote, because it was useless. Third post following my vote: On June 08 2015 08:48 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 08:39 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:35 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:28 Kickstart wrote:
[quote]
Being a smurf is not alignment indicative. refusing to divulge relevant information sure is! identity is a large part of mafia. But surely if you were an acolyte you would see the wisdom in ones words and not need to know the person's identity to discern its wisdom or lack thereof. Is this attempt to discern this persons true identity something useful for a member of the coven? Do you ask so that you can discredit if he does not oblige? Do you ask to know if he is a powerful and wise acolyte? Both courses of action would be beneficial to the inquisitors, while knowing his true identity or not does not matter to members of the coven. Ones words and actions matter most to the coven, not ones identity. Only an inquisitor would be so interested in ones identity over ones wisdom. Would you rather have the smurf be Foolishness, or random lurker X? What about Ace, or BloodyC0bbler? How exactly is this purely a scum-motivated question? It arguably helps town far more, given that if the smurf is town scum already know they are town and they are already automatically a threat. Knowing a player's identity is less important to scum. As scum I have left otherwise "good" townies alive to throw off towns before, simply because they were completely wrong. It's not a scum motivated question. But you questioned nothing. it is a scum behaviour. It's basically a policy lynch that you get behind without compromising yourself. You won't have to rely on building original reads. You just see a townie and justify a push on him without actually caring for his alignment. What I exhibited is a "scum behaviour" according to Freezingfoot. He didn't like my original post, and he thinks I am not trying to build original reads. He claims I don't care about his alignment. Fourth post: On June 08 2015 09:00 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 08:53 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:48 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 08:39 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:35 Kickstart wrote:
[quote]
But surely if you were an acolyte you would see the wisdom in ones words and not need to know the person's identity to discern its wisdom or lack thereof. Is this attempt to discern this persons true identity something useful for a member of the coven? Do you ask so that you can discredit if he does not oblige? Do you ask to know if he is a powerful and wise acolyte? Both courses of action would be beneficial to the inquisitors, while knowing his true identity or not does not matter to members of the coven. Ones words and actions matter most to the coven, not ones identity.
Only an inquisitor would be so interested in ones identity over ones wisdom. Would you rather have the smurf be Foolishness, or random lurker X? What about Ace, or BloodyC0bbler? How exactly is this purely a scum-motivated question? It arguably helps town far more, given that if the smurf is town scum already know they are town and they are already automatically a threat. Knowing a player's identity is less important to scum. As scum I have left otherwise "good" townies alive to throw off towns before, simply because they were completely wrong. It's not a scum motivated question. But you questioned nothing. it is a scum behaviour. It's basically a policy lynch that you get behind without compromising yourself. You won't have to rely on building original reads. You just see a townie and justify a push on him without actually caring for his alignment. So it's a scum behaviour to question nothing...at the beginning of day 1, when by definition there is nothing to question. Where do you come up with this logic? Tell us who you are? It will help town = town approach You're mafia because you're not telling us who you are = scum approach. Implicitly calling my approach scum approach. But not directly doing it. If Freezingfoot thinks my approach is so scummy, in four straight posts.... Why doesn't he vote me? If he tries to get me killed directly that would be one thing, but he's just weakly throwing back mud at me. Did you not see this post freezingfoot? I saw it What about it? See, this is what I'm looking at when I see bugs post: Who is scum? FreezingFoot Why he could be scum? Because he is not revealing his identity when he is getting voted. Why not revealing his identity when up to the lynch is a mafia behaviour? (silence) That isn't the only reason he is calling you scum though that's why im pointing out that post. Oh I get it. I just want him to clarify this point before I do something else
"I just want to keep going in circles so I don't have to actually do anything"
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re: Kickstart
I consider what he did to be one of the more genuinely town things in this thread. To keep the focus let's talk about things are more relevant for now, unless any of you think I am mistaken-if so, I welcome your opinion and do not mind having a discourse on why you disagree.
I like starting off strongly because day 1 is generally a wash unless town gets lucky or scum are bad. The hardest part is starting a discussion, but I would hope that the frequency of my posts and the things I have pointed out about FrozenFoot are enough to get us moving forward.
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On June 08 2015 11:34 FreezingFoot wrote:
Lol dude you can't be town.
I didn't engage your arguments directly or instantly called you scum to see until when you would still push this matter.
My first strike was "I've never had a scumread this quick in a mafia game", but since your reasons were too stupid, I thought you could be town trying to get discussion getting traction. So if I completely shut down your arguments I would break discussion development.
The thing is: if you're town doing that, you'll drop those arguments quickly because they aren't made to hold water. So I decided I would give you space so I could analyse you better.
You're still pushing a dumb matter, which makes me sure you're mafia trying to get behind a ridiculous policy lynch.
You're mafia.
this dude is sure I am mafia but isn't voting me
right
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On June 08 2015 11:36 FreezingFoot wrote:
Oh, votes are made in this thread?
##Vote: wherebugsgo
oh there we go
took you long enough to realize you can't live without doing that
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EPT
